smithfly114
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The Left And The Draft

Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:44 am

This is really amazing to me:

The left keeps bringing up the issue of a draft more than anyone. They keep saying that if President Bush gets re-elected there will be a draft. However President Bush and the Pentagon have CLEARLY stated that there will not be a draft end of story. The left uses it as a scare tactic as if the right wants a draft, yet I have never heard it reported that there was a vote in Congress on the issue and it was defeated 402 – 2! And those two who voted for it were DEMOCRATS, not to mention it was written and pushed through the house and senate largely by democrats! Why doesn’t the right and politically aware citizens call BS on this tactic?

CCS
 
L-188
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RE: The Left And The Draft

Sat Oct 16, 2004 12:47 pm

I don't know.

Apparently the American public does not want to educate themselves about the lies the democratic party tells.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
Mir
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RE: The Left And The Draft

Sat Oct 16, 2004 1:30 pm

Well, first of all, just because Bush says that he doesn't want a draft doesn't mean that there won't be one if he's re-elected. That said, I still don't think there will be oneif that should come to pass. But the way things are going, it's something that seems quite possible, and so the Dems probably want to use it.

It's kind of like the whole "Kerry will raise taxes thing" that we keep hearing from the right. Given his record, it's quite possible, but he's said over and over that the tax cuts will stay for the middle class.

There's really no way to call BS on it, because it's one person's word against another. It's not the first time fictional information and accusations have been used in elections, and it certainly won't be the last.
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: The Left And The Draft

Sat Oct 16, 2004 1:39 pm

Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
L-188
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RE: The Left And The Draft

Sat Oct 16, 2004 2:26 pm

Yes, I saw the Hackworth piece.

And it is one instance where I don't agree with him.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
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JeffM
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RE: The Left And The Draft

Sat Oct 16, 2004 11:57 pm

"It's kind of like the whole "Kerry will raise taxes thing" that we keep hearing from the right. Given his record, it's quite possible..."

LOL.... Yea, there is a really good chance it will be dark tonight, followed by daylight tomorrow too.


Would there be anyone that would bet that Kerry DOES NOT raise your taxes?
 
srbmod
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RE: The Left And The Draft

Sun Oct 17, 2004 12:37 am

Let's look at the reality here. National Guard units (who by the way are supposed to be the homeland forces, not units sent into foreign combat zones [that's another argument for another topic]), as well as regular military units are having stints extended past what they were orignally told; and the Pentagon's wodering why more and more soldiers are refusing to report after R&R. The number of reenlistees is getting smaller and smaller as is the number of new enlistees. So where else are they going to get forces if they can't get volunteers to staff an all-volunteer military? They're going to have to draft them. The dreaded "d" word is as hot of a political hot potato as you can get in this election. If the Draft were brought back, you won't be seeing kids running up to Canada, as Canada has already stated that they'll not take any draft asylum seekers if the US does bring back the Draft.

I'm against the draft because it's not a solution to the problem. Bush seems to be under the impression that the War On Terrorism is a winable; it's not, because terrorism is like a noxious weed, we kill one growth of it, and it pops up somewhere else. We could quash Bin Laden and Al Qaida, but someone else would pop up to take their place. The US needs to step back and take a look at some of the reasons why our country is hated and maybe reevaluate some of our foreign ties that are part of the problem.
 
Matt D
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RE: The Left And The Draft

Sun Oct 17, 2004 12:46 am

I'm starting to get the impression that the Left WANTS to see a reinstatement of the Draft JUST to use it as its own reward to say "SEE...I told you so!!!"

Remember:

If Kerry wins, the People have spoken.
If Bush wins, he clearly stole the election.


 
dl021
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RE: The Left And The Draft

Sun Oct 17, 2004 12:53 am

SRBMOD You do realize that the Natl Guard made up 70% of our combat forces in WWII? The Guard is our reserve combat element, and is subject to posting anywhere upon federalisation. Their state role, is different, but their federal role is as the Army.

Bush stood up and said there would be no draft as long as we is president..and I have to tell you that a draft does not make sense as it would take 6 months to start to have an impact. We do not need it as there are literally hundreds of thousands of IRR reservists who owe time under their 8 year contracts, as well as officers who have not yet served their full commitments.

The only way we will have a draft is if North Korea invades the ROK, and then folks will forgive it.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
flyingbronco05
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RE: The Left And The Draft

Sun Oct 17, 2004 1:15 am

Kerry will have to raise taxes to help get us out of the deficit we are in due to Dubya.

FB05
Never Trust Your Fuel Gauge
 
Matt D
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RE: The Left And The Draft

Sun Oct 17, 2004 1:19 am

Kerry will have to raise taxes to help get us out of the deficit we are in due to Dubya

I have no doubt that he would raise taxes. But that doesn't mean that he would have to.

Why can't we, for once, get a politician in office who will actually cut the fat from spending such as abandoning as many Social programs as possible, closing and eliminating some bureaucracy, and funding of these stupid projects that usually involve something like $100 million grants to study some pointless "issue" such as the courtship ritual of bumble bees?
 
jamesag96
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RE: The Left And The Draft

Sun Oct 17, 2004 1:31 am

"Kerry will have to raise taxes to help get us out of the deficit we are in due to Dubya."

Didn't he look into the camera and tell us he wouldn't?
Why Kate, You're not wearing a bustle. How lewd.
 
Matt D
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RE: The Left And The Draft

Sun Oct 17, 2004 1:32 am

Didn't he look into the camera and tell us he wouldn't?

If you believed him, then I have two 110 story buildings in New York City I'd like to sell you.
 
NceBoy
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RE: The Left And The Draft

Sun Oct 17, 2004 2:46 am

Just my two cents, about the irony of situation...

1st Cent :
The left uses it as a scare tactic
Isn't that a little bit harsh from the right to say democrat are using a scare tactic ? Isn't that from Bush administration that we constantly hear " A major attack, worst than Sept. 11, is to be expected in the following days or week" or others " If Kerry is elected then the terrorist will destroy us !" ??

2nd Cent :
Democrats lying ? And what about your president ? 4 complete years of lying ? And you come here and say " How look, they told a lie !". Wait for Bush to be defeated and for the truth to come out, and you'll see what lying is about !

As I stated, just my two cents !
coz I'm leaving on a jetplane !
 
NWDC10
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RE: The Left And The Draft

Sun Oct 17, 2004 3:42 am

It's always bad to promise/guarentee something. Things always change. We may not need a draft now but we may need one in the future if this world gets in a worse position. Robert NWDC10
 
dan-air
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RE: The Left And The Draft

Sun Oct 17, 2004 3:44 am

Would there be anyone that would bet that Kerry DOES NOT raise your taxes?

What is it about running deficits that you don't understand? How long do you think this country can keep paying such things as war in Iraq using a credit-card? Does that work for you? When the bill comes due, who do you think will have to pay for it - and where does that money come from?

TAXES! Reagan and Bush I were forced to raise taxes to keep deficits from spiralling out of control. But I hear you whining that you dont' like paying taxes - OK, what spending cuts are you proposing? The military? The FAA? INS? State department? CIA? FEMA? FBI?

Make your choice - because there ain't no such thing as a free lunch.
 
Goose
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RE: The Left And The Draft

Sun Oct 17, 2004 3:50 am

Democrats lying ? And what about your president ? 4 complete years of lying ?

A drop in the bucket.... and you should know full well that politicians lie. How many of the 19 or so years of John Kerry's time as a Senator has he talked out of both sides of his mouth and changed his mind about issues?

Kerry hasn't even faced a ballot yet and he's already been caught using factual inexactitudes during his campaign. Certainly not a good start....
"Talk to me, Goose..."
 
Guest

RE: The Left And The Draft

Sun Oct 17, 2004 4:46 am

This is really amazing to me:

The right keeps bringing up the issue of raising taxes more than anyone. They keep saying that if John Kerry gets elected he will raise everyones taxes. However Kerry CLEARLY stated that he will not, end of story. The right uses it as a scare tactic as if the right wants taxes raised, yet I have never heard it reported that there was a vote in Congress on a Bush tax increase and it passed! And those two who voted for it were REPUBLICANS, not to mention it was written and pushed through the house and senate largely by REPUBLICANS! Why doesn’t the left and politically aware citizens call BS on this tactic?

LOL, You guys are guilty of it too. Stop acting like the world is coming to an end.

B
 
Goose
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RE: The Left And The Draft

Sun Oct 17, 2004 5:07 am

The right keeps bringing up the issue of raising taxes more than anyone. They keep saying that if John Kerry gets elected he will raise everyones taxes. However Kerry CLEARLY stated that he will not, end of story.

Yes, just like how when Senator Kerry voted for the President to have the power to go to War with Iraq, it was the end of story.

Or like when he clearly stated on "Face the Nation," prior to a bill for a $87 billion requisition for Iraqi and Afghanistan operations, that no US Senator would ever vote against funding to support American troops in a war zone.... end of story.

He's a politician of high order - he'll make statements that suit him at that particular moment, and gain him popularity. Politicians don't win elections saying they'll raise taxes.

Judging by his prior record, though, Kerry making a public statement is rarely the "end of story," and he has a prepensity for changing his mind.
"Talk to me, Goose..."
 
dl021
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RE: The Left And The Draft

Sun Oct 17, 2004 5:17 am

Well, looking at it logically, Bush does not need the draft to maintain the necessary troop levels, whereas Kerry would have to raise taxes in order to pay for the programs he has outlined (not detailed mind you, but claimed he has a plan for).

Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
NWDC10
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RE: The Left And The Draft

Sun Oct 17, 2004 5:31 am

Bush and Kerry should just say flat out. We have all these tax cuts but if the government don't cut the budget, there will be a debt that we will have to pay eventually-either higher taxes or cut the budget. Robert NWDC10
 
dl021
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RE: The Left And The Draft

Sun Oct 17, 2004 5:36 am

Reagan increased government tax revenue by decreasing taxes to the point that investment and business and the economy grew enough to actually grow government revenues. He combined it with serious program cutting that just enraged the left but helped bring our country out of the economic doldrums.

You do not increase taxes to stimulate the economy.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
srbmod
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RE: The Left And The Draft

Sun Oct 17, 2004 6:00 am

SRBMOD You do realize that the Natl Guard made up 70% of our combat forces in WWII? The Guard is our reserve combat element, and is subject to posting anywhere upon federalisation. Their state role, is different, but their federal role is as the Army.

Their role changed after WWII and Korea, why do you think so many guys tried to get into the National Guard during Vietnam? Because they weren't sending the NG troops into Vietnam.
 
EMBQA
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RE: The Left And The Draft

Sun Oct 17, 2004 6:02 am

it was defeated 402 – 2! And those two who voted for it were DEMOCRATS

What's even funnier.... One of the two votes was from Democrat Charles Rangel of NY....and MEGA Left winger..!!
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
Goose
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RE: The Left And The Draft

Sun Oct 17, 2004 6:11 am

Rangel was the one who proposed the Draft bill, but he actually voted against it. The only two who voted for it were Democrats, though, if I recall.

http://edition.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/01/07/rangel.draft/

Rangel was quoted later as saying - after the bill was defeated - in the New York Times, "It is a prostitution of the legislative process to take a serious issue and use it for political purposes on the eve of the election just to say they are against the draft."
"Talk to me, Goose..."
 
dl021
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RE: The Left And The Draft

Sun Oct 17, 2004 6:26 am

Srbmod........You are correct that many thought it was safer in the national guard, but the deployment of National Guard assets was common, moreso for the air units than the ground units, but it was common enough. Over 30000 National guard troops were sent to Vietnam, both Army and Air. The 23d Americal Division contained some National Guard units as well as individual personnel, for instance. The draft had been part and parcel to our culture and expectation so there was no need to deploy the National Guard en masse, indeed their role at the time was to provide support for REFORGER in the case of the Soviets coming through the Fulda Gap. We also had a significantly larger Army at the time, with more manpower to spread around. Here is a website giving a few details of Guard deployments in Vietnam.

http://www.1800goguard.com/whatistheguard/whatis_history_vietnam.html

Once again, there is no real need for a draft, unless the DPRK comes across the 38th Parallel or the PRC goes haywire. It would be far easier to recall IRR soldiers who still owe time on theri original contracts tp fill any shortterm gaps in the force structure.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
monorail
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RE: The Left And The Draft

Sun Oct 17, 2004 4:14 pm

Playoffs? Don't talk about playoffs!
 
L-188
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RE: The Left And The Draft

Sun Oct 17, 2004 4:20 pm

"It is a prostitution of the legislative process to take a serious issue and use it for political purposes on the eve of the election just to say they are against the draft."

Rangel said that? well he should know about prostituting the system, since he was the one that started the whole mess.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
CaptOveur
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RE: The Left And The Draft

Wed Oct 20, 2004 1:04 am

Aren't the Kerry crowd the ones screaming about "rolling back the tax-cut"? I swear I heard Kerry himself mention that.

Do I really have to translate that for you? It means he will be raising taxes.

I don't care about Iraq
I don't care about Terrorism
I don't care about the draft
I don't care about socialized health care
I don't care about Swift Boats
I don't care about the Alabama ANG
I don't care about the deficit (90% of it is owed to the US anyway)
I don't care about who recieves an insured compensation package from Halliburton
I don't care who has never had a real job in his life


I do care about how much I give to the Federal government out of every paycheck so they can piss it down the drain on whatever bullshit made them happy that day. I seriously have to wonder how anyone can support someone who campaigns saying he will RAISE your taxes. Governments run deficits all the time, it is a non-issue
Things were better when it was two guys in a dorm room.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: The Left And The Draft

Wed Oct 20, 2004 1:39 am

"I don't care about socialized health care"

If you care about taxes you shouldn't you care about socialized health care?
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
CaptOveur
Posts: 6064
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RE: The Left And The Draft

Wed Oct 20, 2004 1:42 am

Maybe, my point was this: I don't care if we have socialized health care or not, but I don't want to have a massive tax increase just to pay for it.
Things were better when it was two guys in a dorm room.
 
Qb001
Posts: 1923
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RE: The Left And The Draft

Wed Oct 20, 2004 1:50 am

Those who are worrying about a revived draft are in the same position as those who worried about a return to budget deficits four years ago, when President Bush began pushing through his program of tax cuts. Back then he insisted that he wouldn't drive the budget into deficit - but those who looked at the facts strongly suspected otherwise. Now he insists that he won't revive the draft. But the facts suggest that he will.

There were two reasons some of us never believed Mr. Bush's budget promises. First, his claims that his tax cuts were affordable rested on patently unrealistic budget projections. Second, his broader policy goals, including the partial privatization of Social Security - which is clearly on his agenda for a second term - would involve large costs that were not included even in those unrealistic projections. This led to the justified suspicion that his election-year promises notwithstanding, Mr. Bush would preside over a return to budget deficits.

It's exactly the same when it comes to the draft. Mr. Bush's claim that we don't need any expansion in our military is patently unrealistic; it ignores the severe stress our Army is already under. And the experience in Iraq shows that pursuing his broader foreign policy doctrine - the "Bush doctrine" of pre-emptive war - would require much larger military forces than we now have.

This leads to the justified suspicion that after the election, Mr. Bush will seek a large expansion in our military, quite possibly through a return of the draft.

Mr. Bush's assurances that this won't happen are based on a denial of reality.


The rest is here.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
 
FDXmech
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RE: The Left And The Draft

Wed Oct 20, 2004 2:46 am

>>>Bush seems to be under the impression that the War On Terrorism is a winable; it's not,......<<<

Sounds familiar

Oh yeah, Joseph P. Kennedy (Ted's dad and Ambassador to Britain in 1940 in Boston Sunday Globe interview.

>>>"Democracy is finished in England. It may be here."<<<

he goes on to say,

>>>"There's no sense in our getting in. We'd just be holding the bag."<<<

Boy does that sound familiar.
You're only as good as your last departure.
 
Mir
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RE: The Left And The Draft

Wed Oct 20, 2004 2:56 am

Reagan increased government tax revenue by decreasing taxes to the point that investment and business and the economy grew enough to actually grow government revenues. He combined it with serious program cutting that just enraged the left but helped bring our country out of the economic doldrums.

You do not increase taxes to stimulate the economy.


Bush, however, is not doing enough program cutting to support his cuts. He's spending like it's going out of style. And thus, we have these problems.

Aren't the Kerry crowd the ones screaming about "rolling back the tax-cut"? I swear I heard Kerry himself mention that.

Do I really have to translate that for you? It means he will be raising taxes.


What Kerry has said is that he will be rolling back the tax cuts FOR THOSE WHO MAKE OVER $200,000 A YEAR ONLY. So unless you fit into that bracket, your taxes will stay right where they are. This has been said over and over. Unless you're raking in the dough, your taxes are not going to go up.
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
FDXmech
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RE: The Left And The Draft

Wed Oct 20, 2004 3:27 am

>>>Unless you're raking in the dough, your taxes are not going to go up.<<<

Does that mean Kerry's wife, Theresa Heinz Kerry, will pay her fair share? Kerry's overseas tax reform was designed with loopholes to let Theresa keep her millions (billions). Let her disclose first.
You're only as good as your last departure.
 
CaptOveur
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RE: The Left And The Draft

Wed Oct 20, 2004 4:54 am

Greenspan himself has said either presidents economic strategy RELIES on technological growth in the economy, otherwise we will have a large deficit no matter what the election outcome.

But then again real economics is over the head of 99.5% of this board, especially when it comes from a non-political source that has been studying the topics since most of the loudest LWAK and RWAK were in diapers.
Things were better when it was two guys in a dorm room.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: The Left And The Draft

Wed Oct 20, 2004 5:07 am

Kerry's the one who claims to want to add new divisions to the armed forces... yet Bush/Republicans are gonna be the ones to draft people?  Insane
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
jaysit
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RE: The Left And The Draft

Wed Oct 20, 2004 5:11 am

"However President Bush and the Pentagon have CLEARLY stated that there will not be a draft end of story."

And your point is?

This President and his Secretary of Defense aren't exactly believable anymore on anything they say.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
dl021
Posts: 10836
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RE: The Left And The Draft

Wed Oct 20, 2004 5:26 am

There is no need for a draft, and if the Democrats keep using it as a way to scare the kids of America (imagine that, democrats think kids today don't want to perform public service in the military...oh, crap, maybe they are right..another thread) they are going to hurt themselves, whether they win or lose. If it insults kids to be used like that and they lose such is karma, if they use it and win, how are they going to get the people to join to increase the size of themilitary as promised? I think that Kerry is laying the groundwork to justify a draft if he wins.

in other news...
well...the media neglected to mention too loudly that when the Kerry campaign released his wifes tax returns they revealed she only paid about 12.5% of her income as taxes.

$200,000 for a couple with kids is not raking in the dough. Its taking away income from the people who are most likely to spend it and support the economy.

Kerry can't add two divisions to the army unless he can figure out how to fund them, and his idea about doubling special forces is not something that can happen inside of two or three years without lowering standards...not a wise choice.

Greenspan supports the Presidents economic choices. A nobel winning economist (milton friedman) insists recently that we need even larger tax cuts modeled after the Reagan tax cuts to really grow the economy, which will increase revenues.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
StarAC17
Posts: 3400
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RE: The Left And The Draft

Wed Oct 20, 2004 5:27 am

Didn't he look into the camera and tell us he wouldn't?

He won't raise taxes for the middle and lower class Americans. But those who make over $200,000 a year will get their texes raised instead of the families who make $50,000 a year.
Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
 
L-188
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RE: The Left And The Draft

Wed Oct 20, 2004 5:32 am

If you think that he can only raise taxed on 200K a year and still pay for his programs, you are smoking a lot of B.C's number 1 agricultural export.

He is saying that just to get people to vote for him, who don't realize that a lot of small buisness owners are going to be hit by the same taxes.

BTW: anybody yet figure out how Theresa managed an 11% rate last year?
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
dl021
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RE: The Left And The Draft

Wed Oct 20, 2004 5:37 am

SHe used her tax cuts and every tax dodge she could. She then sat back and let her husband berate others for doing the same thing.

Hypocrites, anyone?
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
ConcordeBoy
Posts: 16852
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 8:04 am

RE: The Left And The Draft

Wed Oct 20, 2004 6:06 am

He won't raise taxes for the middle and lower class Americans. But those who make over $200,000 a year will get their texes raised instead of the families who make $50,000 a year.

...those who make over $200,000 a year (still VERY middle-class BTW) also contribute MUCH more to the nation's economy than those who don't; and yet that's the group Kerry's chosen to hamper  Insane
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
CaptOveur
Posts: 6064
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RE: The Left And The Draft

Wed Oct 20, 2004 6:47 am

"Hypocrites, anyone?"

Just ask the lefties, they are allowed to "change their minds."

Typical Democrat do as I say, not as I do mentality.

I wonder every day why, when someone is faced with a choice between a career politician and someone who actually has a backround in dealing with the real world, they go for the career politician.. Oh yeah, the politician tells them more of what they want to hear.
Things were better when it was two guys in a dorm room.
 
cannikin
Posts: 79
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 1:10 am

RE: The Left And The Draft

Thu Oct 21, 2004 12:17 pm

Democrats changing minds?

Bush Vs. Bush is good for a 'flip-flop' laugh...

http://www.comedycentral.com/mp/play.jhtml?reposid=/multimedia/tds/stewart/jon_7131.html&setplayer=real_media

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