Klaus
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Russia Accedes: Kyoto Protocol Is On Its Way

Sat Oct 23, 2004 5:27 am

Russia's Lower Parliament House OKs Kyoto Treaty (washingtonpost.com):
MOSCOW - Russia's lower house of parliament ratified the Kyoto Protocol on combatting global warming Friday, putting the sweeping environmental pact firmly on the road to realization and giving Russia a hoped-for step forward toward joining the World Trade Organization.

So much for the Bush administration´s attempts to sabotage the first global step towards ecological cooperation.  Big thumbs up

There´s no doubt the Kyoto process will continue to require substantial effort and that there will be setbacks. But that´s not the main point.

The Kyoto protocol´s primary objective was and is to pave the way for a cooperation on a global scale to answer the growing and equally global threat of ecological disasters as a consequence of reckless pollution and waste of energy.

It is very sad that the biggest polluter on the planet - the USA - has chosen to abrogate its obvious chance of leadership in favour of denial as the only response, leaving the profit and growth based on new technologies mostly to its competitors.

But such things can change.
 
N771AN
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RE: Russia Accedes: Kyoto Protocol Is On Its Way

Sat Oct 23, 2004 5:31 am

It is very sad that the biggest polluter on the planet - the USA - has chosen to abrogate its obvious chance of leadership in favour of denial as the only response, leaving the profit and growth based on new technologies mostly to its competitors.

The United States, per unit of output, is not the world's biggest polluter. The treaty is a joke as evidenced by the fact that even your own country can't seem to abide by its obligations.
 
777236ER
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RE: Russia Accedes: Kyoto Protocol Is On Its Way

Sat Oct 23, 2004 5:59 am

The United States, per unit of output, is not the world's biggest polluter

That's an oxymoron. You mean per GDP per head?
Your bone's got a little machine
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Russia Accedes: Kyoto Protocol Is On Its Way

Sat Oct 23, 2004 6:00 am

With less then 5% of world population the US has 25% share on emissions of greenhouse gases. Simple as that.
 
N771AN
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RE: Russia Accedes: Kyoto Protocol Is On Its Way

Sat Oct 23, 2004 6:02 am

Output in production. GDP per head could be relatively high like Switzerland but that's due to them being a services economy rather than an industrial one. I am not too sure of the data regarding per GDP per head. We might be on the top of that list, but again, we also produce more stuff per GDP per head than anyone else. We have one of the highest worker productivities, but unlike other other economies with high worker productivities, a good percentage of ours is in industry and actually making stuff.
 
N771AN
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RE: Russia Accedes: Kyoto Protocol Is On Its Way

Sat Oct 23, 2004 6:03 am

With less then 5% of world population the US has 25% share on emissions of greenhouse gases. Simple as that.

And more than 25% of the world's economy and 25% of the world's production. We are more efficient and cleaner at making stuff, but we make ALOT of stuff.
 
teva
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RE: Russia Accedes: Kyoto Protocol Is On Its Way

Sat Oct 23, 2004 6:05 am

Good news for the planet.

N771AN, this treaty is probably not perfect. But if you look at the ratio pollution/citizen, it is really impressive.
ANd the idea is not to ask the US people to abandon their way of life. But do you know there are cars in the world that are comfortable, fast, and "drink" only 5 to 6 litters/100 kilometers. If the American consumers ask their car makers to offer those cars, they will keep their way of life, save money (fuel is so expensive today...) and protect the environment.
Here, I am ot talking about a technologic revolution. The technology is there.
And if the US car makers take a lead on this, they can develop even better engine, and why not.... create jobs in the US.
That's an example.
There are plenty of others.
Teva
Ecoute les orgues, Elles jouent pour toi...C'est le requiem pour un con
 
777236ER
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RE: Russia Accedes: Kyoto Protocol Is On Its Way

Sat Oct 23, 2004 6:08 am

So per 'unit production' (whatever that is), output of green house gases is low? Just how do you measure 'production'?
Your bone's got a little machine
 
N771AN
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RE: Russia Accedes: Kyoto Protocol Is On Its Way

Sat Oct 23, 2004 6:09 am

But do you know there are cars in the world that are comfortable, fast, and "drink" only 5 to 6 litters/100 kilometers

I happen to own a Prius so don't lecture me about environmentalism (Prius gets 25km/L or 4L/100K). The treaty is a joke. And yes I read the whole thing.
 
N771AN
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RE: Russia Accedes: Kyoto Protocol Is On Its Way

Sat Oct 23, 2004 6:10 am

Ask these people, that's where I read it.

http://www.economist.co.uk
 
Qb001
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RE: Russia Accedes: Kyoto Protocol Is On Its Way

Sat Oct 23, 2004 6:15 am

No matter what the bushies say or think, with Russia's endorsement, Kyoto now becomes the law for the countries who signed it. These countries will have to adapt their economy consequently, making them more efficient and competitive. And with a barrel of oil at 50$ plus, it does make quite a lot of sense.

Now let the negotiations for Kyoto II begin.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
 
N771AN
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RE: Russia Accedes: Kyoto Protocol Is On Its Way

Sat Oct 23, 2004 6:17 am

No matter what the bushies say or think, with Russia's endorsement, Kyoto now becomes the law for the countries who signed it.

You do realize that its already been broken countless times by the countries that have signed it?
 
777236ER
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RE: Russia Accedes: Kyoto Protocol Is On Its Way

Sat Oct 23, 2004 6:19 am

Nope, can't find it. Can you?

I did find this though:

http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99996494
Your bone's got a little machine
 
Klaus
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N771AN

Sat Oct 23, 2004 6:20 am

N771AN: The United States, per unit of output, is not the world's biggest polluter.

This claim is completely irrelevant. When 4% of the world´s population generate 25% of the world´s pollution and refuse to do anything about it even though it´s obvious they´re just wasting much of what they´re consuming it´s beyond such lame excuses.


N771AN: The treaty is a joke as evidenced by the fact that even your own country can't seem to abide by its obligations.

Being slightly behind target at this time is an entirely different matter than going in the exactly opposite direction.  Insane

This shortsighted failure to prepare for the future is already hurting the US economy, and it can only get worse from here if the direction is not changed.

We´re well on our way, are one of the biggest exporters of technology for sustainable energy and will only extend our lead if there´s no substantial change.

Some people are hoping with increasing desperation that they can simply sit this one out, but the chances that that can work are slim to nonexistent - with a still decreasing trend...  Nuts
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Russia Accedes: Kyoto Protocol Is On Its Way

Sat Oct 23, 2004 6:23 am

"No matter what the bushies say or think, with Russia's endorsement, Kyoto now becomes the law for the countries who signed it. "

Thankfully we have not signed it. If you want to spent billions of dollars for benefits that number in the tens, maybe even hundreds, of dollars, be my guest. Personally I do not care to waste money but Kyoto-supporters and anti-outsourcing Luddites seem intent on wasting it for me.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
N771AN
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RE: Russia Accedes: Kyoto Protocol Is On Its Way

Sat Oct 23, 2004 6:24 am

It was in their magazine.

I'd gladfully support a treaty that would require members to cut emissions by 5-6% per capita per year (or per output) leaving the specifics to each country. This way, each member could cut their emissions in the most economical and sensible way possible for themselves.
 
N771AN
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RE: Russia Accedes: Kyoto Protocol Is On Its Way

Sat Oct 23, 2004 6:26 am

This claim is completely irrelevant. When 4% of the world´s population generate 25% of the world´s pollution and refuse to do anything about it even though it´s obvious they´re just wasting much of what they´re consuming it´s beyond such lame excuses.

That 4% of the world's population makes more than 25% of the world's economy and production. I'm not saying that environmental regulation is a bad idea, but this particular treaty is a joke.

Being slightly behind target at this time is an entirely different matter than going in the exactly opposite direction.

That is simply not true. US emissions have been DECREASING.

[Edited 2004-10-22 23:29:29]
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Russia Accedes: Kyoto Protocol Is On Its Way

Sat Oct 23, 2004 6:28 am

"That 4% of the world's population makes more than 25% of the world's economy and production. I'm not saying that environmental regulation is a bad idea, but this particular treaty is a joke."

I believe it's above 30%.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
Klaus
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N771AN

Sat Oct 23, 2004 6:31 am

N771AN: I'm not saying that environmental regulation is a bad idea, but this particular treaty is a joke.

When your only alternative vision is simply doing nothing against what´s shaping up to be the biggest threat to the economy ever, it´s difficult to be impressed by such a claim.

"Why bother when it takes actual effort!?"  Insane
 
N771AN
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RE: Russia Accedes: Kyoto Protocol Is On Its Way

Sat Oct 23, 2004 6:33 am

Spending money and time on ineffective government policies might be the norm in the EU but it is not acceptable here.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Russia Accedes: Kyoto Protocol Is On Its Way

Sat Oct 23, 2004 6:35 am

"When your only alternative vision is simply doing nothing against what´s shaping up to be the biggest threat to the economy ever, it´s difficult to be impressed by such a claim.
"

We've effectively "done nothing" for the last century, and we use half as much oil now per unit GDP as we did 20 years ago. The choice is do nothing, or spend a ton of money on Kyoto Protocol, which does nothing. I'm all for the former.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Russia Accedes: Kyoto Protocol Is On Its Way

Sat Oct 23, 2004 7:12 am

When 4% of the world´s population generate 25% of the world´s pollution

Does it have to be applied with a sledgehammer: YES the USA is the world's largest nation source of pollution of any nation because it also is the world's largest economic engine and source of aggregate production-distribution of high & low tech goods.




The choice is do nothing, or spend a ton of money on Kyoto Protocol,

...not to mention: in return for practically nil.




which does nothing. I'm all for the former.

...couldn't agree more.

[Edited 2004-10-23 00:12:28]
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
777236ER
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RE: Russia Accedes: Kyoto Protocol Is On Its Way

Sat Oct 23, 2004 7:19 am

A question for Concordeboy and Maverick: should greenhouse gasses be reduced globally?
Your bone's got a little machine
 
N771AN
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RE: Russia Accedes: Kyoto Protocol Is On Its Way

Sat Oct 23, 2004 7:21 am

should greenhouse gasses be reduced globally?

Yes... read reply 15. I would even consider adopting a 6-8% rule for developed (whatever that is) and 4-6% rule for developing countries.
 
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JeffM
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RE: Russia Accedes: Kyoto Protocol Is On Its Way

Sat Oct 23, 2004 7:22 am

Oh no!!!!!!!!!!! GASP!!!!!!!!!!! is the U.N. going to make us join the treaty? How will they do that? Talk bad about us?

That is more of a joke then this thread.  Smile
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Russia Accedes: Kyoto Protocol Is On Its Way

Sat Oct 23, 2004 7:28 am

"A question for Concordeboy and Maverick: should greenhouse gasses be reduced globally?"

As long as the benefit equals or outweighs the costs, of course.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Russia Accedes: Kyoto Protocol Is On Its Way

Sat Oct 23, 2004 7:45 am

A question for Concordeboy and Maverick: should greenhouse gasses be reduced globally

Sure, though only to a level which doesn't stifle current and future economic prosperity, relevant to recent growth rates under current environmental regulations, of the world's largest national economies




As long as the benefit equals or outweighs the costs, of course.

'course, the immediate argument to follow that response is "well include the cost of/in deforestation, ice melt, air quality, blah, blah, and blah"
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
Klaus
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RE: Russia Accedes: Kyoto Protocol Is On Its Way

Sat Oct 23, 2004 8:10 am

I see the shortsightedness that´s troubling much of corporate america is alive and well in the political arena as well. Why am I not surprised?  Insane

Of course the Kyoto process is the start of a huge investment that won´t give you an immediate return. It can help stave off massive losses not too far into the future, however.

The "what is in it for me right now?" mentality has never been a good basis for long-term success.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Russia Accedes: Kyoto Protocol Is On Its Way

Sat Oct 23, 2004 8:19 am

"I see the shortsightedness that´s troubling much of corporate america is alive and well in the political arena as well. Why am I not surprised?
"

Shortsightedness? I'm telling you spending trilliions of dollars on this Kyoto pipe dream will do less for the environment than giving mere millions to Brazillian farmers to stop slash and burn practices. But we aren't actually giving millions in handouts, but through trade and economic growth. Prosperity provides the opportunity for people around the world to become more efficient, thus helping the environment infinitely more than a silly junk treaty.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
commander_rabb
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RE: Russia Accedes: Kyoto Protocol Is On Its Way

Sat Oct 23, 2004 8:42 am

Are we still talking Kyoto?

As far as the United States of America is concerned, Kyoto is a dead issue.

We said NO to Kyoto, now it's up to the rest of the world to figure it out.

The ridiculously flawed treaty is dead...and that's the way it should be.


 
pacificjourney
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RE: Russia Accedes: Kyoto Protocol Is On Its Way

Sat Oct 23, 2004 8:48 am

Oh sorry WRONG ... you signed, you're in ... yes you didn't approve it but enough other signatories did so you ARE LEGALLY BOUND by it's terms ... again soooo sorry !
" Help, help ... I'm being oppressed ... "
 
commander_rabb
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RE: Russia Accedes: Kyoto Protocol Is On Its Way

Sat Oct 23, 2004 8:56 am

ARE LEGALLY BOUND by it's terms


hahahahaha So sue us.

No to Kyoto, and no to the lawsuit.

In otherwords...it ain't ganna happen!

Big thumbs up

(edited to add a very big thumbs up)





[Edited 2004-10-23 01:58:26]
 
L-188
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RE: Russia Accedes: Kyoto Protocol Is On Its Way

Sat Oct 23, 2004 8:58 am

Learn your civics PacificJourny.

The US cannot enter into a treaty unless the senate ratifies it, which it has not.

The rest of the world can pound sand.

As for me, I am going to put another log on the fire.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
pacificjourney
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RE: Russia Accedes: Kyoto Protocol Is On Its Way

Sat Oct 23, 2004 8:59 am

Well yes, actually that's exactly what would happen.

Never heard of the WTO (sorry dumb question, of course you haven't) ?
" Help, help ... I'm being oppressed ... "
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Russia Accedes: Kyoto Protocol Is On Its Way

Sat Oct 23, 2004 8:59 am

you signed, you're in ... yes you didn't approve it but enough other signatories did so you ARE LEGALLY BOUND by it's terms ...

I'm curious as to whether you actually believe this horsesquat, or whether you're just seeking attention?  Nuts
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
L-188
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RE: Russia Accedes: Kyoto Protocol Is On Its Way

Sat Oct 23, 2004 9:01 am

Yeah, Like the WTO is really going to cut off one of the largest economic engines in the world.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Russia Accedes: Kyoto Protocol Is On Its Way

Sat Oct 23, 2004 9:03 am

...one of?
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
commander_rabb
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RE: Russia Accedes: Kyoto Protocol Is On Its Way

Sat Oct 23, 2004 9:07 am

The largest! We know what he meant  Smile
 
L-188
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RE: Russia Accedes: Kyoto Protocol Is On Its Way

Sat Oct 23, 2004 9:10 am

I meant one of the largest.

You can't deny China's rapid growth, which BTW won't be limited because they aren't forced to meet as strong as standards as the rest of the modern world would have been under Kyoto.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
pacificjourney
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RE: Russia Accedes: Kyoto Protocol Is On Its Way

Sat Oct 23, 2004 9:10 am

Hate to break it to you but the US is anserable to the WTO. Recent tax reforms were essentially a reply to changes mandated by WTO rulings on illegal tax incentives.

WTO promotes free trade you know ?

Yes I'm sorry but because others are constrained and bound by Kyoto rules they will expect it's trading partners (yes including you) to be also and would resort to legal action to make it so. It's complicated so I'll give you time to digest but the US is defacto required to comply with Kyoto not to mention the general UN frame work which created it (which even the Bush admin. still supports).

If this were not so whty was the US so hell bent on Russia not approving it and therefore bringing it into force ?
" Help, help ... I'm being oppressed ... "
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Russia Accedes: Kyoto Protocol Is On Its Way

Sat Oct 23, 2004 9:14 am

because others are constrained and bound by Kyoto rules they will expect it's trading partners (yes including you) to be also

refresh us, those "expectations" are based on what again?  Yeah sure





and would resort to legal action to make it so.

on the legal grounds of _________?



Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
commander_rabb
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RE: Russia Accedes: Kyoto Protocol Is On Its Way

Sat Oct 23, 2004 9:14 am

Kyoto was not ratified. Thus, NO to Kyoto.

What about that is so hard for you?

N O t o K y o t o!

There, spelled out for ya! A done deal!


 
pacificjourney
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RE: Russia Accedes: Kyoto Protocol Is On Its Way

Sat Oct 23, 2004 9:24 am

Be in denial if you like but why then was the US so keen for Russia not to approve the treaty. It's coming for you boys, like it or not !
" Help, help ... I'm being oppressed ... "
 
commander_rabb
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RE: Russia Accedes: Kyoto Protocol Is On Its Way

Sat Oct 23, 2004 9:26 am

OK OK you don't get it! We know already!!!!
 
L.1011
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RE: Russia Accedes: Kyoto Protocol Is On Its Way

Sat Oct 23, 2004 11:49 am

Pacificjourney,

We can sign things all we want. If you happened to actually read the US Constitution, as has been said, we are not legally bound by any treaty unless the Senate ratifies it. The rest of the world can scream all it wants, but we are not legally bound by Kyoto, because within the borders of the United States the US Constitution supercedes ALL other laws, including this silly treaty.
 
N771AN
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RE: Russia Accedes: Kyoto Protocol Is On Its Way

Sat Oct 23, 2004 11:50 am

L.1011...

Don't you get it? The French and the Germans will enforce the demands of the treaty!
 
L.1011
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RE: Russia Accedes: Kyoto Protocol Is On Its Way

Sat Oct 23, 2004 11:57 am

With what? Yeah the Armee de Terre and Bundesheer are really a match for the US Army and the Armee de L'Air and Luftwaffe will really give the USAF a run for their money. What are they going to do BOYCOTT US?! Yeah, like we wanted French cars.

(/sarcasm)
 
L-188
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RE: Russia Accedes: Kyoto Protocol Is On Its Way

Sat Oct 23, 2004 12:06 pm

Hell France couldn't even enforce UN sanctions on Iraq.

What the hell can they do about Kyoto?
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
L-188
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RE: Russia Accedes: Kyoto Protocol Is On Its Way

Sat Oct 23, 2004 12:25 pm

And just to put the final nail into Pacificjourney's coffin, ref the US being a signatory, even the BBC article admits the US is not.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3946543.stm

From the article:

"We do not believe that the Kyoto Protocol is something that is realistic for the United States and we have no intention of signing or ratifying it," State Department spokesman Adam Ereli said.


And why the US should stick to it's guns and not sign the treaty. It isn't a fair treaty.

Although China did sign the protocol, as a developing country it is not yet required to begin reducing emissions.


Make a fair treaty where everybody has to have similar cuts and you might have something that a US administration can sign and get ratified.


OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
pacificjourney
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RE: Russia Accedes: Kyoto Protocol Is On Its Way

Sat Oct 23, 2004 3:36 pm

So if the US is not bound or affected at all by this treaty then why were they twisting arms for others not to ratify it ? Why would they care ?

L.1011 no one is talking about enforcing by military means though clearly that would give you a woody. Enforcement will be by means of fair trade, with one side being bound by Kyoto principles they will insist that their trading partners be also. Constituitons be damned, it will be american producers forced to enact Kyoto.

BTW I make no comments on the value of the treaty itself. Despite a science background I don't delude myself that I actually understand everything involved here (unlike this apparent bevy of experts). If you guys want to crow that it has no effect on you then carry on but you are in for a rude shock.
" Help, help ... I'm being oppressed ... "

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