BCAInfoSys
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Time To Cut-Off Israel?

Wed Nov 03, 2004 8:27 am

Hey guys -

I realize this is a very controversial topic, and I'm not trying to offend anyone or cause any problems. I merely want to hear what you have to say on the issue.

In the past 50-odd years that Israel has existed, it has known nothing but violence. And in their efforts to defend themselves, Israel has violated more UN sanctions/rulings then any other nation on the planet. I can't judge that, since I don't know how I would react if I were facing suicide bombers every day.

So my question is.. the US has supported faithfully for over half a decade, has the time come to cut them off, let them stand on their own 2 feet? I think the US as a whole needs to drastically cut-back on our overseas entanglements and worry about ourselves. Granted, any US president that even suggested abandoning Israel would be impeached on the spot. But if there was ever the collective "stones" to take such an action, do you think it would be a positive or negative thing?

Thanks for your civil responses... lets try to keep this thing balanced and objective, as much as that's possible.

Have a great day!
Steve

[Edited 2004-11-03 00:35:19]
Militant Agnostic - I don't know and you don't either.
 
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clickhappy
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RE: Time To Cut-Off Israel?

Wed Nov 03, 2004 8:30 am

omg Steve, lol, dude this thread is too hot to handle.
 
COTXDFW777AA
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RE: Time To Cut-Off Israel?

Wed Nov 03, 2004 8:31 am

Treat them no different than any other middle eastern country, and see how many friends America will suddenly make.
Texas- it's like a whole different country!
 
BCAInfoSys
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RE: Time To Cut-Off Israel?

Wed Nov 03, 2004 8:34 am

Yeah Royal.. this one is quite hot. But I think it's something that's worth talking about, if we can all be rational, reasonable people.

But I basically agree with what CoTXDFW777AA has to say. Why are we treating Israel with any preferential treatment? Why shouldn't we treat them the same as everyone else?  Confused

Steve
Militant Agnostic - I don't know and you don't either.
 
kl911
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RE: Time To Cut-Off Israel?

Wed Nov 03, 2004 8:36 am

Let me answer it this way,


1. Israel is a Jewish country, most jews live in America, so i think yes, America should support Israel.

2. America and Israel are the only countries in the world who actively fight terror. We should all support that. I wish I was an American or Israeli.

3. And Israel is the only civilised country in the middle east, the only democratie, so I would say, support that, then the other democraties will come...


KL911
 
phxairfan
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RE: Time To Cut-Off Israel?

Wed Nov 03, 2004 8:44 am

Well if you stop supporting Israel, you then have to also stop supporting the other middle eastern countries. Egypt receives the same or almost as much Military aid as Israel does. Also, Israel is a huge base for high tech companies. So no sane country would withdraw support and risk losing access to new technologies. Unless of course their hatred for Jews is stronger than their desire for a better life. If would be senseless for the U.S to stop supporting Israel, and it will never happen.
 
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RE: Time To Cut-Off Israel?

Wed Nov 03, 2004 8:56 am

Thanks guys.. I really appreciate your civility on the issue.  Smile

Steve
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clickhappy
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RE: Time To Cut-Off Israel?

Wed Nov 03, 2004 9:02 am

Egypt receives the same or almost as much Military aid as Israel does

I can't stand when people speak without checking their facts. It's called Google, use it.

The Christian Science Monitor

Israel is the largest recipient of US foreign aid. It is already due to get $2.04 billion in military assistance and $720 million in economic aid in fiscal 2003. It has been getting $3 billion a year for years.

Adjusting the official aid to 2001 dollars in purchasing power, Israel has been given $240 billion since 1973, Stauffer reckons. In addition, the US has given Egypt $117 billion and Jordan $22 billion in foreign aid in return for signing peace treaties with Israel.


http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/1209/p16s01-wmgn.htm
 
BCAInfoSys
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RE: Time To Cut-Off Israel?

Wed Nov 03, 2004 9:03 am

Royal -

I don't know about the CSM? What is their reputation for impartiality? Or are they a little biased? I honestly don't know, so I'm asking as to evaluate this new info.

Steve
Militant Agnostic - I don't know and you don't either.
 
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clickhappy
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RE: Time To Cut-Off Israel?

Wed Nov 03, 2004 9:06 am

well, when it comes to numbers how can you be biased? Republicans and Democrats count money the same way, so do Jews and Muslims. A number is a number, right?
 
LY744
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RE: Time To Cut-Off Israel?

Wed Nov 03, 2004 9:06 am

For the record the U.S. did not support Israel faithfully for all 56 years of its existence. More like the past 35.


LY744.
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rjpieces
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RE: Time To Cut-Off Israel?

Wed Nov 03, 2004 9:09 am

I second the trying to keep it civil part......

Superfly:
Until you become a U.S. taxpayer, you don't have a pot to piss in on this issue

You constantly bitch about the US giving Israel aid but I NEVER hear a word from you about aid to other countries which account to WAY more than we give to Israel. The mere fact that you don't say a word about the US giving money and praising Pakistan for example, but bitch about selling weapons to Israel tells me that you have some ulterior motive in your hatred.

In the past 50-odd years that Israel has existed, it has known nothing but violence. And in their efforts to defend themselves, Israel has violated more UN sanctions/rulings then any other nation on the planet. I can't judge that, since I don't know how I would react if I were facing suicide bombers every day.

Ask yourself this question. If the US didn't run the UN, how many votes/sanctions/rulings would there be against us? Remember, the world hates us these days.......Israel has been living with this for 56 years.

So my question is.. the US has supported faithfully for over half a decade, has the time come to cut them off, let them stand on their own 2 feet?

Nope. Israel is fighting the same war that we are fighting. Israel is on the front line of the war on Arab terror, just like England was on the front line of the war on Nazi Germany.

I think the US as a whole needs to drastically cut-back on our overseas entanglements and worry about ourselves.

Why not start in a less important region? Basically, I'm wondering why you want to cut Israel off first when the major conflict region in the world is the Middle East.

Granted, any US president that even suggested abandoning Israel would be impeached on the spot.

Perhaps you forget the first President Bush?

But if there was ever the collective "stones" to take such an action, do you think it would be a positive or negative thing?

Negative. Israel's cause is not only a moral one, for there are many moral causes out there. Israel is a major strategic ally of the US and it would be foolish of us to abandon them.

Also, for those who think Israel causes us to be hated/targeted for terrorism, I ask you why Al Qaeda has attacked Spain, and almost attacked France, two countries which aren't exactly friendly towards Israel.

I'd also like to take this time to point out two things:
http://www.cfrterrorism.org/causes/israelsupport.html

About the relationship between the US and Israel:Since President Truman recognized Israel in May 1948, the two countries have had what historians call a “special relationship”—shaped by American admiration for Israeli democracy; Cold War maneuvering; U.S. distaste for Arab aggression and terrorism; long-standing congressional support for Israel; American guilt over turning away Jewish refugees fleeing Nazi Germany; the clout of the pro-Israel lobby; Christian interest in the holy land; and Israel’s value to America as a stable, reliable friend with a formidable military, a legendary intelligence service, and common values.

And about all of those simpleminded people who think the only reason the US supports Israel is because of Jewish voters:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/10/03/60minutes/main524268.shtml

I suggest reading both sites. I'd love to hear your opinions BCA.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
ly7e7
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RE: Time To Cut-Off Israel?

Wed Nov 03, 2004 9:09 am

I have to say that I do support a gradual reduce of the US financial aid to Israel. In the long run, the Israeli economy will benefit from it.
2 things are endless: ignorance and space
 
Superfly
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RE: Time To Cut-Off Israel?

Wed Nov 03, 2004 9:09 am

A little over a year ago, started a thread about an alternative solution to the Israel/Palestine conflict.
I suggested using the same methods used in Africa, Asia and Latin America to deal with civil wars.
Instead of sending millions of dollars and ammunition, send Holy Bibles instead.
Religious conservatives would like the idea of spreading ‘The Word’, fiscal conservatives would like the idea of saving HUGE amounts of tax dollars and bleeding heart liberals would like the idea that were no longer sending weapons.
Bush could have pulled a masterstroke in doing this.
After all, look at how successful sending Bibles to fighting factions worked in the 1960s.

Not too many members here we able to comprehend but it sure as hell revealed hypocrisy in our international affairs.


By the way, I am not a religious person at all.
I just wanted to point out that the right-wing religious nuts are no better than the terrorist. Fiscal conservatives are hypocrites if they support millions going in to Israel yet want to deny low-income Americans basic services and expose the fact that a ‘true’ liberal would not support our current Israel/Palestine policy.


Personally I feel both side can kill each other to there heart’s content. I just don’t want to pay for it.

Bring back the Concorde
 
rjpieces
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RE: Time To Cut-Off Israel?

Wed Nov 03, 2004 9:10 am

For the record the U.S. did not support Israel faithfully for all 56 years of its existence. More like the past 35.


Absolutely true. In fact, Nixon was the first President who majorly started arming Israel. Keep in mind that Nixon was a known anti-semite........
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
ly7e7
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RE: Time To Cut-Off Israel?

Wed Nov 03, 2004 9:12 am

send Holy Bibles instead

To Israel ? You must be kiddin' Big grin

Dude, we gave YOU the bible  Smile

[Edited 2004-11-03 01:13:24]
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Superfly
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RE: Time To Cut-Off Israel?

Wed Nov 03, 2004 9:14 am

Rjpieces:
That Nixon was anti-everybody!
That damn paranoid bastard!
Bring back the Concorde
 
phxairfan
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RE: Time To Cut-Off Israel?

Wed Nov 03, 2004 9:38 am

"I can't stand when people speak without checking their facts. It's called Google, use it."

Well instead of being a jackass, you could read what I wrote.

"Egypt receives the same or almost as much Military aid as Israel does."

Receives (current), not received since 1973. For 2004 Egypt will receive 1.3 billion and Israel will get 2.16 billion. I'm sorry that 60% isn't a significant enough figure for you, maybe you should pay some more taxes so we can give Egypt more. Then everything would be fair, and you can be happy. There's no need for you to get all pissy over something so petty.
 
N771AN
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RE: Time To Cut-Off Israel?

Wed Nov 03, 2004 9:39 am

How about we just quit giving money to everyone who doesn't deserve it?
 
dl021
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RE: Time To Cut-Off Israel?

Wed Nov 03, 2004 10:12 am

Stevie, dude, was this something brought up in class, or were you sitting there contemplating world politics while nursing your hangover Sunday morning?

Simple answer...the US must not abandon the Israelis. If peace is to happen there it will take the positive involvement of the US and other nations to facilitate the transition for both sides.

Long answer....The question of what to do about our situation with Israel is daunting. It would be politically impossible to abandon Israel while the Holocaust is still in living memory. We would also be abandoning the only true functioning democracy in the region to almost certain destruction. Their neighbors with whom they have declared peace were brought to the table by us, and the ones with whom they maintain a watchful truce are held at bay by the certain knowledge that we will supply Israel with whatever it needs to protect itself.

The greater question to consider is the moral one. We are obliged to provide the Jews of Israel with a protected home, where they are not subject to organized persecution, which they have suffered in very real terms from the European nations in particular, as well as some of the Islamic nations.

The other side of this is what should happen with the people who left when the UN created this state. They left of their own volition, thinking they would be targeted by both sides of the coming conflict. They have been trouble for every host country since then, and even after the 94 accords they have not been able to control either the terrorists within their ranks nor the corruption at the top of their structure. Some of them continually call for the destruction of Israel and there is little done to stop this by the leadership. Part of the problem is that the young and even middle aged have never known Israel as their home, and have grown up in this atmosphere of destruction and fear. They know little else. How else to answer the question of where do the homicide bombers come from? How is it possible to have so little hope that murder/suicide on a mass scale is the best way to make their point?

If you were an Israeli would you be willing to accept the people who send their children to the martyrs brigades? Would you be interested in having these people who were celebrating the murders of your families and friends in a restaurant as your neighbors?

The only answer to this problem is to democratize the Palestinian government for them to modify their own behaviour as well as the environment in which their children are being raised. The US has called for a Palestinean homeland, but it will not come at the expense of the Israeli state. The history of the region can show either sides story as being the one of the victim, but they now need to look to the future. If they desire peace, they will have to find a way to make room for each other, and we will have to help provide the buffer between the two peoples as they learn to live next to each other.

The Israelis turned the desert into a garden....the Palestineans have the opportunity now to do the same. The only way this will happen is for democracy to win and the US and the rest of the world to help.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
kl911
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RE: Time To Cut-Off Israel?

Wed Nov 03, 2004 10:25 am

Superfly,

'''send Holy Bibles instead'''

Do you know that's a book full of bullshit? It's fantasy and nothing else

KL911
 
david b.
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RE: Time To Cut-Off Israel?

Wed Nov 03, 2004 11:05 am

Juat like the Koran and Torah. All religious books are bullshit.
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BA
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RE: Time To Cut-Off Israel?

Wed Nov 03, 2004 11:13 am

1. Israel is a Jewish country, most jews live in America, so i think yes, America should support Israel.

There are a lot of Hispanics in America, the largest minority group. Does that mean the US should be pouring billions of American taxpayers money into Mexico?

2. America and Israel are the only countries in the world who actively fight terror. We should all support that. I wish I was an American or Israeli.

Oh please.... Ask yourself what is causing the global terrorism and why the US is such a target these days. It's because of the US' blind support towards Israel.

Do you see terrorists constantly threatening Canada? Of course not, that's because Canada has taken and has always taken a neutral stance with regards to the Middle East. Nobody in the Middle East gets any special treatment from Canada.

3. And Israel is the only civilised country in the middle east, the only democratie, so I would say, support that, then the other democraties will come...

Haha...I hope that's a joke. A civilized country...hmm....a country that arrests protesters protesting against Israeli military aggression in Palestinian lands.

Like the parliament who Sharon ordered to be arrested because he sympathy to the Palestinians in Rafah who had their homes demolished.

Talk about civilized and democratic.  Insane

Well if you stop supporting Israel, you then have to also stop supporting the other middle eastern countries. Egypt receives the same or almost as much Military aid as Israel does.

American taxpayers money should stay home in America and help the country. I am opposed to massive financial aid packages regardless of whether they go to Israel or Egypt.

Egypt and Jordan were bribed. The financial packages were the primary motives to sign peace with Israel. A peace recognized by the Egyptian and Jordanian government, but not the people.

I am not totally against financial aid. I believe financial aid should be given where it is needed. Israel doesn't need the $3 billion it gets every year. It is a wealthy, technologically advanced country.

Egypt is a poor country. I am not exactly sure in what form they are getting the aid, but my guess is it mostly benefits the cronies like Hosni Mubarak and the people around him.

In the case of Jordan, the Hashemite family is the one who is benefiting the most from the financial aid.

As the old saying goes, the rich get richer, and the poor get poorer. Corrupt leadership in the Arab world, supported by the US.

The same goes with Saudi Arabia and the Saudi royal family.

Getting back to the issue of aid, there are improverished countries in Africa and Asia who should be getting the $3 billion in forms of economic and financial aid which is currently going to Israel in forms of military aid.

Imagine if many of the impoverished nations of the world got a piece of that $3 billion on a yearly basis? Just imagine...

N771AN said it perfectly.
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
dl021
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RE: Time To Cut-Off Israel?

Wed Nov 03, 2004 12:17 pm

BA....your assessment of the US as the prime cause of terrorism is pure BS. The countries that refuse to vocally support Israel for fear of targeted by terrorists are encourageing terrorism by giving them what they want.

Civilized nations do not constantly attack their neighbors nor do they lauch rocket attacks on farms. Nor do they send terrorists to attack, directly or by supporting them, their neighbors.

There is vast corruption in the arab world's leadership, and it should be corrected...how do you suppose this should happen without allowing things to fall into fundamentalist Islamic rule, which would present a constant threat to Israel? What is your opinion on the best way to introduce effective and honest democratic leadership?
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
rjpieces
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RE: Time To Cut-Off Israel?

Wed Nov 03, 2004 12:26 pm

BA....your assessment of the US as the prime cause of terrorism is pure BS.

Of course BA ignores that Osama Bin Laden didn't attack the US because of Israel........

The countries that refuse to vocally support Israel for fear of targeted by terrorists are encourageing terrorism by giving them what they want.

Not only that, they are attacked ANYWAY (Spain and France come to mind). This just goes to prove that Muslim extremists will attack regardless of support (or lack of) of Israel.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
BA
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RE: Time To Cut-Off Israel?

Wed Nov 03, 2004 12:59 pm

BA....your assessment of the US as the prime cause of terrorism is pure BS.

Tell that to the rest of the world which would think otherwise.

US foreign policy in the Middle East over the years has created frustration and anger.

The US and the Arab world had very very very warm relations up until Truman decided to embrace Israel.

Did you know the Arabs of Palestine had favored an American mandate over a British Mandate following the fall of the Ottoman Empire?

Getting back to the issue of US influence in the Middle East, a prime example is the US' support of a ruthless dictator, Mohammed Reza Shah Pahlavi, ska the Shah of Iran. A stooge of the US who provided the US with cheap oil and easy access to it. Under the Shah, the rich kept getting richer, and the Iranian people who were impoverished kept getting poorer.

So in 1979, the Iranian people get fed up and overthrow the Shah, and what replaced him? Ayatollah Khomeini, famous for calling America the "Great Satan." This was known as the Islamic Revolution. While the Iranian people are now financially better off than they were under the Shah, Islamic fanaticism has sweeped Iran.

The US supported the Saudi royal family from the beginning. The royal family has always been corrupt from a long time. The events going on in Saudi Arabia are to overthrow the Saudi Royal family. That's all fine and dandy, except it's become an Islamic extremist movement. The goal is to replace the royal family with a Taliban like regime. The same is going on in Iraq right now with the insurgents.

The US supported Saddam in the early 1980s to fight Iran and provided him with financial assistance and arms. Donald Rumsfeld personally met with Saddam and stated "this is a man we can count on." After the US was done using him, they turned their back on him just as they turned their backs on the Afghani people after they helped the "mujahedeen" (Bin Laden being one of them) to fight off the Soviets. We all know what happens next.

In the Lebanese Civil War, the US under the Reagan Administration came in to act as peace keepers and restore peace in the country. This was a good intentioned act, but instead of acting as a neutral force and work for peace between the varying sides, the US took sides by siding with the Phalangists. This inturn ended up increasing tensions and violence in Lebanon instead of try to calm things down. In 1983, a truck bomb exploded by the marine barracks in Beirut and 283 marines were killed. This led the US to pull out of Lebanon.

The US lost a lot of lives in what was supposed to be a peace keeping mission, and ended up increasing the fighting and problems in Lebanon because of their failure to act as a true neutral peace-keeping force.

When there was a chance of secularism and democratic reforms in the Middle East, the US and the rest of the west firmly opposed those. I refer to the Arab nationalism goals led by Egyptian President Gamal Abdel Nasser.

When Nasser refused to join the Baghdad Pact because he wanted his country to remain neutral from Cold War conflict, the US became furiated.

Besides refusing to join the Baghdad Pact, Nasser's Arab nationalism goals appealed to many in the Arab world but did not appeal to the US because they wanted to have a firm foodhold in the Arab world.

There is a new book out called Nasser: The Last Arab and I will share the summary of the book below:

Since the death of Egyptian president Gamal Abdel Nasser in 1970, there has been no ideology to capture the imagination of the Arab world except Islamic fundamentalism. What we see today in the Middle East is the direct result of Western opposition to Nasser's Arab nationalist ideals and his belief in the supremacy of the secular state.

Nasser is a towering figure in Arab politics. When he refused to follow a strictly American line, the CIA tried to undermine him. He responded by throwing in his lot with the Soviet Union, even though he was fervently anti-Communist. Nasser wanted to achieve military par with Israel, to create a balance of power that would lead to peace and not the '56 or '67 wars.

A dictator with a human bent, Nasser was extremely popular, and his pan-Arab ideology appealed to many and produced a brief chance for Arab unity and a cluster of relatively democratic, incorruptible governments.

Nowadays the Arab world is Islamic, anti-Western, and teetering on the edge of disaster. Although Nasser's ambitions came to an end because the West opposed him, what replaced him is infinitely more dangerous.


The US has been involved in Arab conflicts and politics far too much and in far too many negative ways which over the years has built up to the hatred America experiences today.

The countries that refuse to vocally support Israel for fear of targeted by terrorists are encourageing terrorism by giving them what they want.

No, but treating Israel no different from any other country in the Middle East and not pouring billions of aid into the country in forms of weapons, these countries do not have to fear from hostilities from the Arab world.

Civilized nations do not constantly attack their neighbors nor do they lauch rocket attacks on farms. Nor do they send terrorists to attack, directly or by supporting them, their neighbors.

Tell that to the Israelis who constantly attack Palestinians and constantly occupy and oppress them.

Think about why the Palestinians do what they do.

Algeria resorted to the same measures long ago to kick the French colonialists out.

Take a look at the Palestinian deathtoll versus Israeli deathtoll over the past 3 years.

There is vast corruption in the arab world's leadership, and it should be corrected...

As I stated, the US is largly responsible for the corrupt leadership in the Arab world.

how do you suppose this should happen without allowing things to fall into fundamentalist Islamic rule, which would present a constant threat to Israel?

Nasser fought hard for secularism in the Arab world and could have achieved it if the west supported him.

The constant threats against Israel are not Islamic and they will only die down when Israel allows the right of return of Palestinian refugees and ends its occupation of Arab lands.

What is your opinion on the best way to introduce effective and honest democratic leadership?

I'm all for democracy, but it needs to come from within. It cannot be forced upon by an outside force or else it will be met with resistence.

Government in Arab culture is very tribal. People are used to looking up to a leader for as long as they are alive. There have been democratic reforms occuring in Arab countries over the past 20 years, even if they are occuring at a slow pace. There IS progress.

You cannot implement democracy without educating the people first. This will take time, but it can be done, and is being done from within. There are always people who are asking for more democratic reforms and ever so slowly, they make progess.

Just like China opened up over the years and has adoped a market economy from being a strict command economy, the Arab world will slowly transition into democracy as more people stand up and want it.

Of course BA ignores that Osama Bin Laden didn't attack the US because of Israel........

While his primary reason for attacking the US was because of the US forces in the holyland and the US' support of the corrupt Saudi royal family which he despises, he also has mentioned the Palestinian struggle as one of the reasons since the beginning.

Not only that, they are attacked ANYWAY (Spain and France come to mind). This just goes to prove that Muslim extremists will attack regardless of support (or lack of) of Israel.

Spain was attacked because of the previous government's support in the war on Iraq.

France has yet to see a major terrorist attack from Islamic fundamentalists, but if it were to happen, it would be because of their decision to ban hijab (headscarf) from public schools.

Politically, France is very popular among the Arab world because of their fair, neutral stance and their opposition to the war in Iraq.
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
AA777
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RE: Time To Cut-Off Israel?

Wed Nov 03, 2004 1:29 pm

Negative. Israel's cause is not only a moral one, for there are many moral causes out there. Israel is a major strategic ally of the US and it would be foolish of us to abandon them.

On the contrary, If the U.S. abandoned support of Israel, we would gain alot more arab friends than the U.S. currently has. And those Arab friends would collectively mean alot more to us than little Israel though. Only problem is, Israel's got nukes. And I wouldnt put it past them to use them.


Nope. Israel is fighting the same war that we are fighting. Israel is on the front line of the war on Arab terror, just like England was on the front line of the war on Nazi Germany.


How do you say they are fighting the same terrorists that the U.S. is, when OBL has not attacked Israel? Only Hezbollah, and Hamas are "terrorist" organizations that attack Israel. To compare it is another slimey way Israel wants to liken itself to the U.S. to gain popular support. The truth is, Israel is 85% of the reason we got hit on 9/11.


Also, for those who think Israel causes us to be hated/targeted for terrorism, I ask you why Al Qaeda has attacked Spain, and almost attacked France, two countries which aren't exactly friendly towards Israel.


Its not directly because of Israel, its because of their support / alliances with the U.S.. Notice that Spain's attack was not as massive as 9/11. (not to downgrade it, but there were not 3,000 casualties). Biased support for Israel is the reason. You reap what you sow. What happened in New York and here in D.C. was because of the U.S.'s one sided approach to the peace process, and our constant aggressive behavior towards Arab nations. You think OBA would call the U.S. the great satan if we fairly helped the Palestinians get a nation? No. Palestine is a holy land for Arabs, and if America showed that it cared, we would not have these problems.

My solution? Cut monetary support until Israel pulls its troops out of the west bank, and gives Palestinians full Independence as a nation. Want a wall? Build it along the proper borders.

-AA777

-AA777
 
NWDC10
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RE: Time To Cut-Off Israel?

Wed Nov 03, 2004 2:55 pm

I'm glad some people aren't in our government. They will just slide this country into a worse shape. If the US cuts itself off of Isreal, say good bye to the US. Robert NWDC10
 
windshear
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RE: Time To Cut-Off Israel?

Wed Nov 03, 2004 10:43 pm

I for one hoped that Kerry would win, so there could become a gap between Israel and US, not in terms of hostility, but of thoughtful distance.
The Kerry admin. Would of course support Israel, but I think it's for Israel's own interest that the US would try and stay on the objective side of things.

I think it is a far better signal to send out to a region drowning in lack of confidence in both the US and Israel.

But Steve be careful in judging Israel, people are also after your country.
Your country has it's own share of violations and unfortunate actions in the past...

Boaz...
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
dl021
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RE: Time To Cut-Off Israel?

Wed Nov 03, 2004 11:09 pm

ba...the statement that the european countries that do not favor israelhave nothing to fear is a threat in itself..you are saying that if a country takes the side of Israel, who actually does represent democracy in the Middle East, they are fair game for terrorism? Please tell me I misread you there.

Nasser was a dictator with absolutely zero intention of instituting real democracy. You are correct that there are small steps being taken toward democracy, but the pace is slowed by internal resistance from the fundamentalist religious leaders.

Blaming the US for all the leadership corruption is very easyand convenient. Forgetting that France was largely responsible for the setup of Syria and Lebanon is also easy. You also fail to take account of the motivations of US actions during the cold war. The Soviets were sponsors of several arab nations during this period and they were decidedly not neutral. The US was required by circumstance to deal with as many leaders as possible to prevent them from allowing the Sovs access. Right or wrong morally or ethically, this is part of what it took to win the cold war and contain the Soviet growth patterns/revolution spreading. Did we bribe Egypt and Jordan? I guess its how you look at it. You seem to feel that we sent the money to the wrong places. Where should we have sent it?

aa777 You are suggesting that the 9-11 attacks were our fault...fuck you. The attacks were the result of a group of people who desire to remain in power and are willing to sacrifice other lives to do so. The leaders of the fundamentalist religions have a good deal going for themselves, and have a perfect platform to vent their hatred at the Americans for displaying their freedom and wealth through terrorism. Your stated apologism for their actions is reprehensible and cowardly. If you want to refuse to get involved because its tough...well then tell me how we are going to not be negatively affected by the situations that exist in places like Israel and Palestine.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
windshear
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RE: Time To Cut-Off Israel?

Wed Nov 03, 2004 11:40 pm

Dl021 I understand, but what kind of signal do you think reelecting Bush is sending to that region? A signal of peace? A signal to end all hostilities and lay down arms?

Boaz...
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
ly772
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RE: Time To Cut-Off Israel?

Wed Nov 03, 2004 11:50 pm

Israel is the target of terrorism and antisemitism around the world. AA777, you claim that OBL has never attacked Israelis? 20 Israeli's were killed in Taba, Egypt by OBL. Do you believe that that was a coincidence? OBL knew that lots of Israeli's are at that hotel.

The United States of America and Israel stand side by side because we have the same problems. The entire world doesn't exactly love us, arab countries hate us, we have problems with the French...

 
windshear
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RE: Time To Cut-Off Israel?

Wed Nov 03, 2004 11:54 pm

Don't forget the targeted hotel in Kenya or where it was...Also the attempted missile attack on the Arkia B757...

LY772 do you really think Israel is better off with GWB?

Boaz...
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
flymia
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RE: Time To Cut-Off Israel?

Wed Nov 03, 2004 11:54 pm

We need to help the only democracy in the Middle East.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
windshear
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RE: Time To Cut-Off Israel?

Thu Nov 04, 2004 1:09 am

Yes but I think also the US needs to show that there are limits and there are certain codexs to live up to...

Stuff Bush as it is has a hard time promoting, as he lacks a good portion of them...

Boaz...
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
dl021
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RE: Time To Cut-Off Israel?

Thu Nov 04, 2004 1:12 am

windshear...W is the worst enemy OBL has ever had, including the Russians. He damned well should feel unhappy about this re-election.

Bush has done more to introduce freedom and democracy to sw asia than anyone else in history.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
Twistedwhisper
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RE: Time To Cut-Off Israel?

Thu Nov 04, 2004 1:37 am

Of course BA ignores that Osama Bin Laden didn't attack the US because of Israel........

Have you ever heard a speech from OBL where he didn't mention the Israel-Palestine issue...? Who's ignoring what?
Read between the lines.
 
rjpieces
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RE: Time To Cut-Off Israel?

Thu Nov 04, 2004 2:00 am

On the contrary, If the U.S. abandoned support of Israel, we would gain alot more arab friends than the U.S. currently has. And those Arab friends would collectively mean alot more to us than little Israel though. Only problem is, Israel's got nukes. And I wouldnt put it past them to use them.

In the words of Lori Berenson, "To be silent in the face of injustice is to be an accomplice to evil. I will not be silent." If the Arab world wishes to hate us, in the words of newly elected GWB, bring it on.

So you are saying we should abandon Israel, and help Arab countries to destroy her? Jeez man.

How do you say they are fighting the same terrorists that the U.S. is, when OBL has not attacked Israel? Only Hezbollah, and Hamas are "terrorist" organizations that attack Israel. To compare it is another slimey way Israel wants to liken itself to the U.S. to gain popular support.

The US and Israel are both facing radical Islam. They do our hard work, killing Arab terrorists daily. I'm more than happy extending our military technologies to them so they could take out radical Muslims who wish my country harm.

The truth is, Israel is 85% of the reason we got hit on 9/11.

Really? Every major news organization and Think Tank disagrees with. Osama disagrees with you too. What makes you say this?

My solution? Cut monetary support until Israel pulls its troops out of the west bank, and gives Palestinians full Independence as a nation. Want a wall? Build it along the proper borders.

There are 60,000,000 Evangelical Christian Americans who don't want Israel to pull out of the West Bank. You don't REWARD terrorism. You send a harsh message which Israel has.


I for one hoped that Kerry would win, so there could become a gap between Israel and US, not in terms of hostility, but of thoughtful distance.
The Kerry admin. Would of course support Israel, but I think it's for Israel's own interest that the US would try and stay on the objective side of things.


Many Arabs voted for Kerry because of Bush's militant support of Israel. In the last few months, Kerry and Bush have been competing with each other for the title of "Israel's best friend".

Nasser was a dictator with absolutely zero intention of instituting real democracy.

I believe that BA was saying that if the Arabs had united to destroy Israel, there would be peace. Since that obviously didn't happen, there is unrest today and he blames it on that. Sad.

aa777 You are suggesting that the 9-11 attacks were our fault...fuck you.

Shame that people like him with those views are allowed in our country....It sickens me.

The United States of America and Israel stand side by side because we have the same problems.

The United States of America DOES stand side by side with you and will always.

Speaking of which, I'm sure Israelis are thrilled with Bush being reelected? How are you guys taking it over there?

The entire world doesn't exactly love us, arab countries hate us, we have problems with the French...

The list goes on......

LY772 do you really think Israel is better off with GWB?

Absolutely. Kerry would have tried to rebuild alliances with Europe, reengaged in the peace process which just leads to Israelis dying, and overall been more sympathetic to Arab terror.

Four years ago, American Jews distrusted George W Bush. American Arabs voted overwhelmingly for him. This was because everyone assumed that he would just act like his father, with hostility towards Israel, and adopt James Baker's "F*ck the Jews" attitude. Everyone was taken by surprise as George W. Bush has been the best friend to Israel that the US has ever seen. Even lifelong Democrats applaud Bush for his support of Israel. Israeli public opinion polls show a majority of citizens favoring Bush (one of the FEW countries in the world where this is the case); Ariel Sharon's deputies have more or less endorsed Bush. There is little question that Israel is better off with George W. Bush as President.

Have you ever heard a speech from OBL where he didn't mention the Israel-Palestine issue...? Who's ignoring what?

Are you joking? OBL rarely mentioned Israel until he became a popular terrorist so to speak.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
windshear
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RE: Time To Cut-Off Israel?

Thu Nov 04, 2004 2:15 am

Dl021 I know you say what you do with the best intentions, but I think what matters, are the perception of freedom and democracy in SW Asia...

Do they feel like they have experienced a liberation or a violation?
Yeah maybe they are free, but maybe they still feel violated...

He had intentions, but not the human and social insight to see that maybe a bombed people wouldn't make good friends...

And when you mention SW Asia I assume you mean Afghanistan and Iraq??
Boaz...
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
bill142
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RE: Time To Cut-Off Israel?

Thu Nov 04, 2004 5:14 am

The Bush policy of refusing to deal with Arafat sure does wonders for Israel and the region. How do you expect to solve the issues when you refuse to speak to one side?
 
dl021
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RE: Time To Cut-Off Israel?

Thu Nov 04, 2004 7:51 am

Yes. Those are two of the nations to which I refer.

These folks have known nothing but violation, and we have brought them freedom. They are learning what that means, and we need to help them preserve that until it is strong enough to stand on its own.

Polls taken from the overall Iraqi population recently show that they wanted Bush to win his reelection and were afraid Kerry would abandon them. They want us gone, yes..us, Denmark, Poland and every other foriegn soldier...but not yet. They want us to follow through on our promise of freedom and democracy. Their willingness to enlist to fight for this is the bet indication of their desire to pay the price for developing this democracy.

Good intentions must be put into action if they are to have a long lasting positive impact on our world. Try to really see their perspective, not your own. THey are used to violence and hardship, what they are finding difficult to believe is that there will be a postive end to it for them.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
AA777
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RE: Time To Cut-Off Israel?

Thu Nov 04, 2004 10:24 am

well then tell me how we are going to not be negatively affected by the situations that exist in places like Israel and Palestine.

Did you NOT read my post??? I said that everything that happened to us has alot to do with our flawed foreign policy in Israeli / Palestinian issues. You are foolish to think that I think we should not be involved in that situation. We SHOULD be very much involved. However, I think we are making ALL wrong decisions.

RJ, If you know SO much about what OBL and what he wants or doesnt want, go join him. If you DONT think the US's actions have anything to do with 9/11, then you are an IDIOT, pure and simple. I love it when so many people say, 9/11 came out of nowhere. Its ridiculous. People are ignorant if that's what they think. Do you hate random people for no reason? (You might actually). NO, its because they did something to you. Well, we did MANY bad things to them, we have had abusive policy in the middle east, and we reaped what we sowed. No, they didnt have to attack us, but we didnt have to screw them over in the first place. Dont expect an oppressed people to stay oppressed.

Shame that people like him with those views are allowed in our country....It sickens me.

You know what, YOU sicken me. You are constantly going off on Arabs and how much you seem to hate them. Go and join the bloody IDF. Go and shoot some Palestinians if that is what gets you off, and it seems that it does. Its plain to see that you wish for the complete demise of every Arab that has ever walked this earth.
We dont need people here in Washington that obviously have loyalties other than the U.S. Given the choice I bet you'd fight against the U.S. if they and Israel were in a war.

One more thing: I can say anything that pleases me, and you cant do a thing about it. Thats America, freedom of speech. Maybe they dont have that in your part of Brooklyn or Israel. You simply wish to put a stop to anyone speaking out against your point of view.

You dont know anything about me. Absolutley nothing. And between the two of us, I'm sure alot more people like me than you, so please, save your useless breath. And, save us (A.net, and the rest of the world), your constant complaining about how opressed Israel is, and how oppressive the Arab world is. Youre full of gobs of Shi* and you know it.

-AA777
 
rjpieces
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RE: Time To Cut-Off Israel?

Thu Nov 04, 2004 10:46 am

RJ, If you know SO much about what OBL and what he wants or doesnt want, go join him.

HA, that's what you have resorted to? Pathetic.

If you DONT think the US's actions have anything to do with 9/11, then you are an IDIOT, pure and simple.

9/11 was our fault as much as the monthly suicide bombing in Israel is their fault. So after reading your posts, I would guess that you more or less blame 9/11 on US actions. Heck, I don't have to guess, you said it above.

People are ignorant if that's what they think.

I suppose the 58,000,000 people who voted for President Bush are ignorant too, right?

You know what, YOU sicken me.

I might sicken you. But my comments can't get me thrown into a jail cell in Cuba. Yours can.

You are constantly going off on Arabs and how much you seem to hate them.

Uh huh. Why don't you come meet me and then you can tell me how much I hate Arabs.

Go and join the bloody IDF. Go and shoot some Palestinians if that is what gets you off, and it seems that it does.

Why the IDF? I'll be more than content when the US takes Fallujah in the coming weeks--Along with the F16s flattening the city.

Its plain to see that you wish for the complete demise of every Arab that has ever walked this earth.

HA. Yeah, that's right up there on my list of priorites.

We dont need people here in Washington that obviously have loyalties other than the U.S.

We don't need people in Washington who HATE the US and wish us harm.

Given the choice I bet you'd fight against the U.S. if they and Israel were in a war.

HA. I don't even need to respond to this one.

One more thing: I can say anything that pleases me, and you cant do a thing about it.

Did I try to stop you from ranting? I simply said that what you said sickens me to the core as a freedomloving American.

Thats America, freedom of speech.

Something the Arab world is lacking. I'm glad you're enjoying your rights in America.....To preach against America. Ironic, ain't it?

You dont know anything about me. Absolutley nothing.

First true statement you said. And I can safely say that I don't know anything about anybody on A.net nor does anybody on A.net really know me...Except for one person who I was friends with in real life before A.net but that's besides the point.

And between the two of us, I'm sure alot more people like me than you, so please, save your useless breath.

LOL. In all of my arguments on A.net, I've never seen somebody lower themself to that! Thanks for the laugh though!

And, save us (A.net, and the rest of the world), your constant complaining about how opressed Israel is, and how oppressive the Arab world is. Youre full of gobs of Shi* and you know it.

Uh huh. Like I said above, I suppose all Americans are full of gobs of sh*t too?
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
rjpieces
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RE: Time To Cut-Off Israel?

Thu Nov 04, 2004 11:07 am

Oh, and AA777, if you are so convinced that I wish all Arabs death, I'd be more than happy to meet up with you and go spotting or something.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
FDXmech
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RE: Time To Cut-Off Israel?

Thu Nov 04, 2004 11:35 am

>>>Time To Cut-Off Israel?<<<

You mean......circumcise them?
You're only as good as your last departure.
 
ly7e7
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RE: Time To Cut-Off Israel?

Thu Nov 04, 2004 4:46 pm

You mean......circumcise them?

What ? again? Nooooooooooooo

:D Big grin
2 things are endless: ignorance and space
 
airxliban
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RE: Time To Cut-Off Israel?

Sat Nov 06, 2004 9:09 am

KL911, how ignorant can you be...you are out of your mind to think that Israel is the only civilised and only democratic country in the Middle East.

In the words of Thomas Friedman...the Zionist Jews who founded Israel had three objectives when they thought about what kind of country there were going to create. They wanted a Jewish state, a democratic state and a state that would be located in the homeland of the Jews.

Only 2.5/3 has been possible.

And the T-word is plenty to do with US Foreign Policy!
PARIS, FRANCE...THE BEIRUT OF EUROPE.

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