rjpieces
Posts: 6849
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Jewish Vote In The US

Fri Nov 05, 2004 12:30 pm

I would like to take this time to point something out to the many A.net members who claim that US Presidents are only pro-Israeli for the Jewish vote.

George W. Bush is widely acknowledged as the best US President that Israel has ever had. Even many Democrats acknowledge this. Israelis favored him over Kerry, 75%-25%, one of the few countries in the world where Bush was favored. And yet American Jews still hate the man. Newspapers predicted that Bush would take 30% of the Jewish vote; I've written on A.net for months that I thought Bush would take 40%. Yet despite EVERYTHING that this man has done for Israel and for Jews, Jews only gave him 22% of the vote, a mere 2% more than 2000 when everybody expected Bush to treat Israel like his father did.

If those who hate on Israel need proof of why their "Jewish power" myth is bullsh*t, they need look no more. The Republican Party is simply more pro-Israeli than the Democratic Party, despite the fact that most Jews are still Democrats. This shows a lot of things--That not only Jews are pro-Israeli, and even more importantly that Jews care about other issues--abortion, gay rights, welfare--more than they do about Israel.

I've posted these websites before, but here they are again. For those who think the US only supports Israel for the sake of a few Jews, I suggest reading these sites.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/10/03/60minutes/main524268.shtml

What's the number one item on the agenda of the Christian Right? Abortion? School Prayer? No and No. Believe it or not, what's most important to a lot of conservative Christians is the Jewish State. Israel: Its size, its strength, and its survival.

American Christian Zionists say they are now a more important source of support for Israel than American Jews or the traditional Jewish lobby.

http://www.cfrterrorism.org/causes/israelsupport.html

Since President Truman recognized Israel in May 1948, the two countries have had what historians call a “special relationship”—shaped by American admiration for Israeli democracy; Cold War maneuvering; U.S. distaste for Arab aggression and terrorism; long-standing congressional support for Israel; American guilt over turning away Jewish refugees fleeing Nazi Germany; the clout of the pro-Israel lobby; Christian interest in the holy land; and Israel’s value to America as a stable, reliable friend with a formidable military, a legendary intelligence service, and common values.

Thank you.

[Edited 2004-11-05 04:46:21]
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
csavel
Posts: 1270
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RE: Jewish Vote In The US

Fri Nov 05, 2004 1:11 pm

Well you do make a point.

Traditionally, the Democrats were more pro-Israel than the Republicans, most Jews in the US vote Democratic, with the rise of Christian Zionists, now the Republicans are more pro-Israel.

Now why has that not translated to more votes for Bush?

Simple,
most American Jews are very uncomfortable with Christian Zionists, and don't like being used because of someone else's end-time religious zealotry. Most American Jews think that CZs don't give a rats ass about Jews or Israel unless it fits into their eschatology.

While the US is overwhelmingly a nation of Christians, it is not a "Christian nation". The evangelicalism and the merging of religion and government worries a lot of Jews. Personally when the president talks constantly about Jesus, as someone who is *not* a Christian, it makes me feel like an outsider in my own country.

Many American Jews have a lot of problems with Sharon and his hard line stance, even if they do not like Arafat either. Lot's of Jews have a problem with the concept of Zionism if it means disenfranchising another people or kicking them off their land. Its sort of agonizing.

And all American Jews are Americans, thus they will vote for what they think is in their own country's best interests, not in a foreign country's best interest, even if they have ties of religion or family to it.

Example,

My mother down in Phase II of del Boca Vista was a staunch Kerry supporter, a neighbor in the condo was for Bush, "because he's good for Israel."
Mom said "Well then why don't you move to Israel."
neighbor called my mother a "self-hating Jew" but the vast Majority of American Jews are more like my mother.
I may be ugly. I may be an American. But don't call me an ugly American.
 
rjpieces
Posts: 6849
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RE: Jewish Vote In The US

Fri Nov 05, 2004 1:35 pm

Traditionally, the Democrats were more pro-Israel than the Republicans, most Jews in the US vote Democratic, with the rise of Christian Zionists, now the Republicans are more pro-Israel.

Yes. And they are almost more fiercely pro-Israeli than Jews are....

Simple,
most American Jews are very uncomfortable with Christian Zionists, and don't like being used because of someone else's end-time religious zealotry. Most American Jews think that CZs don't give a rats ass about Jews or Israel unless it fits into their eschatology.


Very true that many American Jews feel this way although it is changing as more Jews see their support as necessary and valuable and see that they aren't motivated by hatred of Jews.......

While the US is overwhelmingly a nation of Christians, it is not a "Christian nation". The evangelicalism and the merging of religion and government worries a lot of Jews. Personally when the president talks constantly about Jesus, as someone who is *not* a Christian, it makes me feel like an outsider in my own country.

Absolutely. Like I said, many American Jews feel that way and as the numbers indicate, they view that as more important than Israel's security........Which is ABSOLUTELY Ok, it's NORMAL! It just goes to prove that certain unnamed A.net members are wrong when they accuse American Jews of only caring about Israel, etc etc.

And all American Jews are Americans, thus they will vote for what they think is in their own country's best interests, not in a foreign country's best interest, even if they have ties of religion or family to it.

Absolutely! That is the whole point I'm trying to make in this thread.....

My mother down in Phase II of del Boca Vista was a staunch Kerry supporter, a neighbor in the condo was for Bush, "because he's good for Israel."

Hehe, Boca, the true promised land.......

Mom said "Well then why don't you move to Israel."
neighbor called my mother a "self-hating Jew" but the vast Majority of American Jews are more like my mother.


Agreed 100%. My mother hates President Bush as much as 9/10 of A.net does; Yet she does applaud him for his support of Israel but wouldn't vote for him just because of that. It is stupid to be a single issue voter......And as you said, like most American Jews, she has other priorities in who she votes for.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
iakobos
Posts: 3255
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RE: Jewish Vote In The US

Fri Nov 05, 2004 7:22 pm

Rj,

I think you missed the main point: it is their only "ally" in the entire region.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Jewish Vote In The US

Fri Nov 05, 2004 7:38 pm

Iakobos,

But the election results diprove the statements from I´ve heard a lot from both left and rightwing Americans and non-Americans complaining about a "Jewish conspiracy to run the US and the world".
This is one of the very few instances I agree with RJ.
At the moment the hardline Israeli politics are more supported by fundamentalist Christians than American Jews. I think most American Jews were rather supporting somebody like Barak or Rabin.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
iakobos
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RE: Jewish Vote In The US

Fri Nov 05, 2004 8:08 pm

Correct Jan, but I was not referring to this election in particular, but to the "special relationship" that has been running for well over 50 years now.

Israel has been the proxy of the US in the M-E, and among other advantages, their most reliable and capable ELINT/SIGINT/INTEL (and not only in the region...).
An extremely valuable asset at all times.
 
rjpieces
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RE: Jewish Vote In The US

Fri Nov 05, 2004 11:21 pm

But the election results diprove the statements from I´ve heard a lot from both left and rightwing Americans and non-Americans complaining about a "Jewish conspiracy to run the US and the world".

That was the point I was trying to make with this thread.....

This is one of the very few instances I agree with RJ.

Heh.  Smile

At the moment the hardline Israeli politics are more supported by fundamentalist Christians than American Jews. I think most American Jews were rather supporting somebody like Barak or Rabin.

Agreed. And remember that Bush himself is an Evangelical Christian.

Correct Jan, but I was not referring to this election in particular, but to the "special relationship" that has been running for well over 50 years now.

Actually, that special relationship didn't really take shape until the 1967 war....Remember that France was Israel's best friend and main weapons supplier for years.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
rjpieces
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RE: Jewish Vote In The US

Sat Nov 13, 2004 12:45 pm

Any more thoughts on this QR332,BA, Horus?
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
AA777
Posts: 2358
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RE: Jewish Vote In The US

Sat Nov 13, 2004 2:44 pm

RJ,

I think the Arabs on this forum are tired of arguing with you.... I might be wrong. But that is my guess....


-AA777
 
pacificjourney
Posts: 2659
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2001 9:12 pm

RE: Jewish Vote In The US

Sat Nov 13, 2004 3:43 pm

This deserves a great big "who the fuck cares" !

I just wish the Abduls and Red Sea pedestrians would hurry up and just kill each other so the rest of us could happily ignore them and not have to continually clean up their shit afterwards.
" Help, help ... I'm being oppressed ... "
 
OYRJA
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RE: Jewish Vote In The US

Sat Nov 13, 2004 4:15 pm

Where do you want to go with this RJ?

You are really starting to get pathetic. Every chance you have to bitch with our arab members you do it. You really start sounding like a true Klan member.
Get your self together allright.
 
jaysit
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RE: Jewish Vote In The US

Sat Nov 13, 2004 5:28 pm

American Jews with their high educational levels are smart enough to see the pro-Israeli Christian fundie wing of the GOP for what it basically espouses - love Israel, hate the Jews.

Any political movement that supports Israel because it clings to some fundamentalist nonsense about keeping Israel under Jewish hands only so that Jesus Christ can walk the earth again - and then punish the Jews while he's at it - would be hard pressed to get the support of any Jew with half a brain.

Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
ltbewr
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RE: Jewish Vote In The US

Sat Nov 13, 2004 11:55 pm

Traditionaly, most Jewish people in the USA are in urban and suburban areas of the USA, with a large proportion in the 'Blue states'. This also goes back to their patterns of immigration where all but small numbers tended to stay in the major eastern and upper midwest cities (Boston, NYC, Cleveland, Chicago). Because of perscution of Jews in Europe, and some that continued after they came to the USA, they tended to and still tend to want to live close to each other and have access to temples. Most of the Urban districts in the USA have traditionally been connected with the Democratic Party, so they tailored their message to Jews as well as Catholics who also faced prejucice as they came into the USA. Republicans have always and still are preceived to be the party of the WASPS (White Anglo Saxon Protestant), so didn't fell confortable with them. Many Jews also believed in a more expanded and stronger National government to protect their interest unlike the pro-states rights/small government view of the Republicans. Democrats also tended to be concerned about social issues, with it espeically during the Depression. After WWII, the move to removing discrimination toward Blacks also led to contniued support of the Democrats by Jews. Many Jews were involved in those jobs in that attracted unionization, with the leaders of many unions (Clothing manufacturing, Auto Workers) being Jewish.
In effect, the Jewish vote is by tradition connected to the interests of them. This is changing, as many Jews have ented the upper economic classes and become attracted to the lower taxes view and limiting regulation views of the Republicans and general prejudice against Jews declines (notwithstanding acts of vandilism).
 
rjpieces
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RE: Jewish Vote In The US

Sun Nov 14, 2004 10:57 am

I think the Arabs on this forum are tired of arguing with you.... I might be wrong. But that is my guess....

That's funny. We've never argued about THIS before. This has nothing to do with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. It is about US support for Israel.

Where do you want to go with this RJ?

I just wanted to make a point. MD-11Engineer's Reply 4 is what I wanted.

You are really starting to get pathetic. Every chance you have to bitch with our arab members you do it. You really start sounding like a true Klan member.

LOL. How is this thread racist in AAAAAAANNNNNNNNYYYYYYY WAY?

American Jews with their high educational levels are smart enough to see the pro-Israeli Christian fundie wing of the GOP for what it basically espouses - love Israel, hate the Jews.

I wouldn't say "hate the Jews". The Jews, in their eyes, are necessary to bring about the second coming of Christ. But yes, they do love Israel. And many American Jewish groups welcome their support.

Any political movement that supports Israel because it clings to some fundamentalist nonsense about keeping Israel under Jewish hands only so that Jesus Christ can walk the earth again - and then punish the Jews while he's at it - would be hard pressed to get the support of any Jew with half a brain.

Well, George W Bush is an Evangelical Christian......And he got 22% of the Jewish vote two weeks ago.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
PDPsol
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RE: Jewish Vote In The US

Sun Nov 14, 2004 12:59 pm

RJpieces,

I am VERY, VERY, VERY concerned about the increasing political influence of Evangelical Christians in the U.S. These people are ONLY concerned with Israel in the realm of its importance to the 'Second Coming'. I DO NOT trust their intentions regarding Jews, or any other religious, racial or sexual minority for that matter.

I like to think I live in a secular republic where objective, independent, humanist reason and analysis forms the basis for our policy-making by our political leaders. After the Nov. 2 election, I cannot say I feel so sure...

Our forefathers were very prescient in drafting our Constitution in 1789 and were very familiar with the dangers associated with religion and political power.

I have a particularly keen interest in ensuring our democratic institutions remain secular and objective; I am gay. Applying religious morality to justify 'Christian-based' policies and withold full civil liberties from 'certain' citizens is rather dangerous, indeed.

If Jewish members of my community believe Evangelical Christians will 'protect' Israel and their interests, I recommend they study the matter very, very carefully...
 
bruno
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RE: Jewish Vote In The US

Sun Nov 14, 2004 3:11 pm

Evangelical Christians, Orthodox Jews and Taliban can rot in a cave in Afghanistan with Osama Bin Laden as far as I am concerned.
Sharon, Bush, Bin Laden are equally evil and have NO PLACE in our world.

I am a registered Republican and I live in New York City. We have lots of Jewish people here. Most of whom voted for John Kerry and rightfully so.


Rjpieces, you really sound like a fool and rabid pro-Israel Nazi. It's too bad that some Jews like yourself picked up on Hitler’s wicked ways. I don't give a rat's ass about how many books you've read. I've sat silently reading your pro-Israel propaganda and I had to step in and say something. If you love Israel so much, move your ass over there and shut the f--k up!
I just don't want to subsidize your whining Israeli people.
Don't you people make enough money from the inflated price of JEWelry?



I am happy that most Jewish American's were smart enough to use there brains and vote for John Kerry as I did as a vote of protest against fascism. Jews were victims of fascism and were smart enough to see through Bush's war against Arabs. Too bad you were so stupid to buy in to Bush’s hook line & sinker.
Shame on you RJpieces.
I support the women’s movement up and down!
 
rjpieces
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RE: Jewish Vote In The US

Wed Nov 17, 2004 6:06 am

Evangelical Christians, Orthodox Jews and Taliban can rot in a cave in Afghanistan with Osama Bin Laden as far as I am concerned.
Sharon, Bush, Bin Laden are equally evil and have NO PLACE in our world.


Nice job discreding yourself before I even finish reading your post.

I am a registered Republican and I live in New York City. We have lots of Jewish people here. Most of whom voted for John Kerry and rightfully so.

Congrats. I'm from NYC too. Your point?

Rjpieces, you really sound like a fool and rabid pro-Israel Nazi. It's too bad that some Jews like yourself picked up on Hitler’s wicked ways. I don't give a rat's ass about how many books you've read. I've sat silently reading your pro-Israel propaganda and I had to step in and say something. If you love Israel so much, move your ass over there and shut the f--k up!
I just don't want to subsidize your whining Israeli people.
Don't you people make enough money from the inflated price of JEWelry?


Statements like this make me superglad we have another 4 years of Bush.

I am happy that most Jewish American's were smart enough to use there brains and vote for John Kerry as I did as a vote of protest against fascism.

Uh huh.

Jews were victims of fascism and were smart enough to see through Bush's war against Arabs. Too bad you were so stupid to buy in to Bush’s hook line & sinker.
Shame on you RJpieces.


Again, uh huh. War against Arabs........Right.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
FlyVirgin744
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RE: Jewish Vote In The US

Wed Nov 17, 2004 6:59 am

Absolutely, The Evanges only support Israel to fulfill their biblical prophecy, you think they really care about the people there? They know as soon as their "messiah" comes the jews will be cast to .....

I tend to stay away from topics like this, however I am familiar with this whole "the jews run america" thinking and I take offense to it.
Sometimes I go about in pity for myself and all the while a great wind carries me across the sky.
 
Superfly
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RE: Jewish Vote In The US

Wed Nov 17, 2004 7:24 am

FlyVirgin744:
Excellent post.
Every once in a while a conservative Republican nut from the South will blurt out there true anti-Jewish feelings. If Jews weren't so wealthy and powerful I doubt the Evangilical Christians would give a damn about Jews.
I am glad that most Jews are not like Rjpieces.
Tokenism is found in all groups of people that have been oppressed.
After Bruno made his post, I knew Rj would fall to pieces.


Rjpieces:
Statements like this make me superglad we have another 4 years of Bush.

What does 4 more years of Bush have to do with jewelry?  Confused
Bring back the Concorde
 
rjpieces
Posts: 6849
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RE: Jewish Vote In The US

Wed Nov 17, 2004 8:25 am

If Jews weren't so wealthy and powerful I doubt the Evangilical Christians would give a damn about Jews.

This statement makes no sense. This whole post is about Evang. Christians caring about Israel, not necessarily Jews. It has nothing to do with money or power.

I am glad that most Jews are not like Rjpieces.

22% are. And as the Democrats continue to fall apart, that number will increase.

After Bruno made his post, I knew Rj would fall to pieces.

Fall to pieces did I? Bruno and you share similiar views; What makes you think I responded to that one any different than I do to your normally warped views?
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"

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