rjpieces
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Gay Rights In America

Fri Nov 05, 2004 12:42 pm

I have several questions and would appreciate some answers rather than a debate........

How are civil unions working out in Vermont? What happens when those couples pay taxes to the Federal Government?

What is currently happening in Mass.? I've totally lost track of the debate there so what is the status? And again, what happens when they pay federal taxes in April?

What is stopping more states from legalizing civil unions? What would it take for it to happen? Why isn't it happening, especially in states like New York or California? Does it have to be the state gov. or can it be a local gov? And do the civil unions give the FULL legal benefits that marriage does, or are there differences?

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but all of the states that banned gay marriage could still have civil unions, right?

Why doesn't the Federal Government take care of this once and for all? Why don't they say that they don't support gay marriage but do support equal rights/benefits for gay couples and be done with the debate? What options would a President have for allowing civil unions? Could Bush sign an executive order allowing it, or would it have to come through Congress? Would Congress support a bill that defines marriage as between a man and a woman but allows civil unions? Again, why doesn't Congress do this?

It really pisses me off that everyone makes a fuss over the word "marriage". Call it whatever the hell you want, the debate SHOULDN'T be over the word; Gays should have equal rights though, even if the word isn't "marriage".

I would appreciate any information.........
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
gigneil
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RE: Gay Rights In America

Fri Nov 05, 2004 12:54 pm

Why isn't it happening, especially in states like New York or California? Why isn't it happening, especially in states like New York or California?

Civil unions are legal, to a fault, in California. Registered domestic partners in CA are treated muchly like a marriage. Recent expansions, signed into law by the Governator will require registered partners to get a divorce of sorts, and also will merge their assets just like any real marriage. Many partners are unregistering before that happens because it will affect their state-supplied AIDS benefits to have joint income that the government recognizes.

I'm not sure how the federal government recognizes them, if at all. Technically, they have to, since legal relationships are established at a state level. We would need a California gay person or attorney to comment.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but all of the states that banned gay marriage could still have civil unions, right?


You're wrong. Most, but not all, of them banned civil unions in the same fell swoop.

That's why its so horrible. Many of the amendments rolled back existing rights for same sex partners, including previously legal insurance benefits and hospital visitation rights, among others.

This past week saw gay rights get rolled back to Stonewall in 11 states.

Would Congress support a bill that defines marriage as between a man and a woman but allows civil unions? Again, why doesn't Congress do this?


Simple. States' rights. Marriage is a function of state government. Both candidates in this past election supported civil unions, but only if the states wanted them to have them. 16 of 51 jurisdictions have now modified their Constitutions to prevent gay rights. Some still left the door open to unions, some barred them permanently. Virginia, for example, has long since had legislature that bans both.

Further, many of them passed amendments that defeated the fuil faith and credit clause of the Constitution. They don't have to recognize gay marriages or civil unions that are conferred by other states, which is a drastic departure from the way this country has worked since its inception.

Its bigotry. This country has spoken with a unified voice - gay people are not welcome.

N
 
sccutler
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RE: Gay Rights In America

Fri Nov 05, 2004 12:59 pm

First and foremost, legislation such as you have proposed would have to be undertaken by the governments of the various states, not as a federal question. Granting or withholding the legal status of marriage (or any other legal status for that matter) is the subject of state-by-state legislation, and unless a constitutional issue is raised (none here I can see), the feds have no part.
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
JeffM
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RE: Gay Rights In America

Fri Nov 05, 2004 1:01 pm

"..partners are unregistering before that happens because it will affect their state-supplied AIDS benefits.."

Why should the "State" pay for a gay person's AIDS benefit? Makes no sense to me. Does the "State" pay my dental bill? Would it pay for someone's Cancer Treatments? Dialysis?

That is bull$hit...
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
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RE: Gay Rights In America

Fri Nov 05, 2004 1:04 pm

That's because you're a horrible and morally bankrupt person.

Just about every state in the union has an AIDS benefit fund established.

HIV treatment can easily consume every bit your insurance pays plus hundreds of thousands more over your lifetime. Without state benefits, almost nobody would get treated.

Its available for both straight and gay persons.

N
 
rjpieces
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RE: Gay Rights In America

Fri Nov 05, 2004 1:05 pm

Why should the "State" pay for a gay person's AIDS benefit? Makes no sense to me. Does the "State" pay my dental bill? Would it pay for someone's Cancer Treatments? Dialysis?

Jeff, I understand your point, but could we please save it for another thread......
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
rjpieces
Posts: 6849
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RE: Gay Rights In America

Fri Nov 05, 2004 1:09 pm

Civil unions are legal, to a fault, in California. Registered domestic partners in CA are treated muchly like a marriage. Recent expansions, signed into law by the Governator will require registered partners to get a divorce of sorts, and also will merge their assets just like any real marriage. Many partners are unregistering before that happens because it will affect their state-supplied AIDS benefits to have joint income that the government recognizes.

Wow, I had no clue about this...Do any other states have arrangements like this?

I'm not sure how the federal government recognizes them, if at all. Technically, they have to, since legal relationships are established at a state level. We would need a California gay person or attorney to comment.

Do they get tax benefits that married couples get?

Simple. States' rights. Marriage is a function of state government. Both candidates in this past election supported civil unions, but only if the states wanted them to have them.

And what is wrong with this? Sadly, many states are conservative and not cool with gay rights; these are the same states that weren't (some might say aren't) cool with black rights, etc. But as long as there are states like Vermont and California out there with civil unions, don't you think it's ok?

Its bigotry. This country has spoken with a unified voice - gay people are not welcome.

NO. How has the country spoken with a unified voice?! Banning gay marriage would never pass in many states.......The mere fact that a few states have civil unions is in direct contradiction to your argument that the country has spoken with a unified voice against gays.

[Edited 2004-11-05 05:21:58]
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
JeffM
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RE: Gay Rights In America

Fri Nov 05, 2004 1:13 pm

"That's because you're a horrible and morally bankrupt person."

Wrong. Under your scenario, I will just be fiscally bankrupt due to someone's indiscretion. You still didn't answer the question why I should pay for any gay person's AIDS benefit, regardless if the state has the fund or not. But I doubt you will come up with a serious answer.


 
gigneil
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RE: Gay Rights In America

Fri Nov 05, 2004 1:14 pm

Sadly, many states are conservative and not cool with gay rights; these are the same states that weren't (some might say aren't) cool with black rights, etc.

The federal government forced black rights on all states because it was morally the right thing to do.

The same thing applies to gay rights. Its morally the right thing to do, except that nobody believes that.

Banning gay marriage would never pass in many states..

You're wrong. It would pass in almost every state in the union.

California, despite civil unions, has banned gay marriage. 16 states have.

Trust me, most of the rest of them would given the opportunity.

N
 
gigneil
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RE: Gay Rights In America

Fri Nov 05, 2004 1:17 pm

You still didn't answer the question why I should pay for any gay person's AIDS benefit, regardless if the state has the fund or not.

Yes, I did. My post made it clear. Without state benefits, nobody straight or gay would be able to afford treatment.

I suppose you want them all to die, don't you?

You're basically a third world citizen with no values whatsoever. You're a selfish and evil human being that doesn't deserve the benefits of being an American.

The fundamental values of this country are to help your fellow man.

N
 
JeffM
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RE: Gay Rights In America

Fri Nov 05, 2004 1:20 pm

Having the Gov't "force" any "right" on anyone is just plain wrong. And the majority of people in the U.S. agree that it is morally wrong.

Did the Gov't take over paying for Black medical problems because they were Black?

Any answer to my other question? Why should I pay for a gay person's AIDS treatment?
 
gigneil
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RE: Gay Rights In America

Fri Nov 05, 2004 1:26 pm

Having the Gov't "force" any "right" on anyone is just plain wrong.

They forced black rights on people, and the majority of the US agreed that it was wrong.

Do you think that was a mistake?

Your whole argument is crap. The government "forces" your moral view of gay marriage on people. That's fundamentally against the fabric of the country, yet you support it.

Why should I pay for a gay person's AIDS treatment?

Would you pay for a straight person's?

I guess to you, the fact that they would all die without it isn't a reason.

You truly are the lowest form of life. I'm embarrassed to be from the same country as you.

N
 
JeffM
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RE: Gay Rights In America

Fri Nov 05, 2004 1:31 pm

"The government "forces" your moral view of gay marriage on people."

Wrong, the Gov't just enforced the majority's opinion. It is called a Vote.

"Would you pay for a straight person's?"

No.

"I guess to you, the fact that they would all die without it isn't a reason."

You make choices in your life, some make better then others, but you should pay for the consequences of your own decisions. Don't blame, or force someone else to make up for your poor choice.

I am embarassed that you think everyone should bail you out.

 
rjpieces
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RE: Gay Rights In America

Fri Nov 05, 2004 1:36 pm

JeffM, do you support civil unions for gays?
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
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RE: Gay Rights In America

Fri Nov 05, 2004 1:37 pm

Wrong, the Gov't just enforced the majority's opinion. It is called a Vote.

If you and I have to agree on it, then its not freedom.

You feel the same way about black rights? You keep skipping that part.

Obviously, you do. You think darkies should count as 3/5s a person and have to sit in the back room, right? That's what the majority wanted, right?

You make choices in your life, some make better then others, but you should pay for the consequences of your own decisions

So kids that get it from their parents, or people that get it from transfusions or surgical procedures, or victims of rape deserve to die. That's basically what you're saying.

I am embarassed that you think everyone should bail you out.

I suppose you think the Red Cross is evil, and I bet you don't give a penny to charity, do you now?

Thomas Jefferson implored the people of America to help their fellow man. I guess he meant everyone but you.

N
 
lehpron
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RE: Gay Rights In America

Fri Nov 05, 2004 1:39 pm

Would you pay for a straight person's AIDS benefit JeffM?

Heck, would you help anyone with AIDS?
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
 
JeffM
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RE: Gay Rights In America

Fri Nov 05, 2004 1:48 pm

"If you and I have to agree on it, then its not freedom."

But I agree with it.

"You feel the same way about black rights?"

No, Their civil rights as a human should be the same as any other race. Overcompensation I feel is wrong.

"So kids that get it from their parents, or people that get it from transfusions or surgical procedures, or victims of rape deserve to die. That's basically what you're saying."

No, that is what you are implying. Their own insurance should pay for it. Not based on their sexuality alone, as you demand.

"I suppose you think the Red Cross is evil, and I bet you don't give a penny to charity, do you now?"

Wrong once again. I have been giving money from each paycheck for over 25 years to the Combined Federal Campaign. I do not designate any money to the Red Cross though. Lots of others.

"Thomas Jefferson implored the people of America to help their fellow man."

How true. But there are other ways to help then paying your bill.  Big grin

----------

"JeffM, do you support civil unions for gays?"

Sure, why not? They may not like everything that goes along with it, but I see no reason to prevent a legal contract between two people. I would just keep the term "Marriage" for unions between a man and a woman.


 
gigneil
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RE: Gay Rights In America

Fri Nov 05, 2004 1:54 pm

But I agree with it.

No you don't. You said that it was ok to force gays not to marry because the majority didn't want it.

If the majority has to agree with it for me to do it, then it isn't freedom.

Their own insurance should pay for it.

You don't read, do you? INSURANCE CAN'T COVER YOUR AIDS TREATMENT COMPLETELY. I said it in several posts.

Unless you're wealthy, you die.

Not based on their sexuality alone, as you demand.

I never said that. Every post I mentioned discussed that the benefit was available for both straights and gays. You were the one that inserted "gay person" in every sentence about AIDS.

You're specifically opposed to benefits for gay people.

I have been giving money from each paycheck for over 25 years

Why? Why would you pay to benefit someone who can't afford something themselves?

They earned their bum rap, right? Let them suffer!!

N

[Edited 2004-11-05 05:55:47]
 
rjpieces
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RE: Gay Rights In America

Fri Nov 05, 2004 1:55 pm

Please stop the back and forth boys......Can anybody else answer some of the original questions in the post?
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
gigneil
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RE: Gay Rights In America

Fri Nov 05, 2004 1:57 pm

Yes Reese. The whole country hates us, and we deserve no rights.

Does that answer your question?

N
 
JeffM
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RE: Gay Rights In America

Fri Nov 05, 2004 2:04 pm

"Why? Why would you pay to benefit someone who can't afford something themselves?"

take the time to look up the Combined Federal Campaign.... My money goes to help many other things other then people's medical bills.

"INSURANCE CAN'T COVER YOUR AIDS TREATMENT COMPLETELY. "

True. Insurance can't cover a lot of things completely, and guess what? Some people die. Unfortunate, but society cannot pay for everything. Be realistic for a change.

"But I agree with it."

Yes, I agree with the majority that do not want gay marriage, a legal union is different.
 
rjpieces
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RE: Gay Rights In America

Fri Nov 05, 2004 2:07 pm

Yes, I agree with the majority that do not want gay marriage, a legal union is different.

What exactly is the difference between marriage and a legal union in your opinion? I'm fine with having legal unions, because in my eyes that is marriage.....What differentiates the two for you?
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
User avatar
ClassicLover
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RE: Gay Rights In America

Fri Nov 05, 2004 2:10 pm

You could always move if it doesn't suit you...

Rights for people is always going to be a sensitive issue. Some are going to be for it and some are going to be against it.

In time, things will change. A lot has changed from 20 or 30 years ago, and a lot will change in the next 20 or 30 years. Too much change too soon will just cause people to revolt. Gradual change works best.

I know it sometimes seems hard because of what is happening right now, but what is right will come about, even if it does take time.

Trent.

I do quite enjoy a spot of flying - more so when it's not in Economy!
 
MD-90
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RE: Gay Rights In America

Fri Nov 05, 2004 2:57 pm

A state ammendment defining marriage as being between a man and a woman passed with a staggering 88% of Mississippi voters voting for it last Tuesday.
 
rjpieces
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RE: Gay Rights In America

Fri Nov 05, 2004 3:00 pm

MD-90, do you support civil unions for gays?
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
jasepl
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RE: Gay Rights In America

Fri Nov 05, 2004 5:39 pm

You're basically a third world citizen with no values whatsoever.

Hey Neil, don't insult us third world citizens!
 
ejmmsu
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RE: Gay Rights In America

Fri Nov 05, 2004 5:58 pm

For better or for worse, there is almost universal support in the southern states and strong majority support in more moderate states to pass this legislation. Homosexuals should have the right for civil unions for the purposes of government benifits, etc. However, a vast majority of the nation prefers to reserve the "sanctity" of a religous marriage to a man and a woman.

88% in Mississippi........

The common statement is that 1 in 10 americans are gay. It appears that only 2% of the heterosexuals in mississipi support gay marriage. It will take a very long time to curb that kind of opposition in the southern states.

"If the facts do not conform to the theory, they will have to be disposed of"
 
dtwclipper
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RE: Gay Rights In America

Sat Nov 06, 2004 1:01 am

I don't want to get married, I don't want special rights, I don't care if the half of the US accepts my life style or not.

This is what I do want:

If my plane crashed, I want my partner to be recognized and receive what ever compensation a married spouse would receive.

I want to be allowed to visit my partner in the hospital without having to produce a legal document.

I want to be sure my partner will continue to receive health benefits through my company (in jeopardy by Michigan Prop. 2)

We don't need the Social Security death benefits that married couples receive, but many do, we are going on 18 years, why shouldn't we. Hetro's married for a long time, and then divorce, the spouse still receives the full benefits of the Husband after his death. I know this, because this is the case of my Grandmother.

I want to be able to file a joint tax return. We have a mortgage, pay our property taxes, school mils., but can not reap the benefit of the tax laws.

I want to be sure that gay parents will not loose custody of their children.





Compare New York Air, the Airline that works for your Business
 
gigneil
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RE: Gay Rights In America

Sat Nov 06, 2004 1:09 am

Mississippi was one of the few states that didn't also bar civil unions.

Civil unions were banned in even some liberal states, like Oregon and Michigan.

You're not going to get any of those things, dtwclipper.

N
 
dtwclipper
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RE: Gay Rights In America

Sat Nov 06, 2004 1:17 am

Gigneil:

I am convinced that although we lost Prop 2 here in Michigan, it will be proved to be in violation of the federal constitution.

In the mean time, I have an appointment with my Lawyer this afternoon to fix any loopholes in my wills and power of att. docs.

Well, that is one way to help the economy.

dtwclipper
Compare New York Air, the Airline that works for your Business
 
gigneil
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RE: Gay Rights In America

Sat Nov 06, 2004 1:21 am

I don't think you're going to find that to be true. The issue of interpersonal relations is a matter of states' rights. The federal constitution would have to be amended to give them power over the matter.

N
 
jaysit
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RE: Gay Rights In America

Sat Nov 06, 2004 1:28 am

Your answers:

1. Federal Taxes

Partners must file individually as "single" (or "head of household," if qualified) on federal income tax returns. Individual partners cannot file as "single" on Vermont income tax returns. For the state return, civil union couples may elect to file a joint return or separate returns in the same manner as married couples filing jointly or "married filing separate."

2. The State of the Law in MA

a. What happens when they pay federal taxes in April?

DOMA takes care of that for now. Now I am sure someone will challenge DOMA on the full faith and credit clause come April

Same-sex marriages began on May 17. The constitutional amendment the Legislature passed to effectively nullify that decision must gain lawmakers' approval again in 2005 before it can go before voters on the 2006 ballot.

Interestingly, gay marriage did NOT play a big role in the State Legislature races. Pro-gay marriage candidates won hands down all over MA, even in socially conservative districts like Worcester where gay Democrat Ed Augustus won over his equally pro-gay marriage Republican opponent.

Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Gay Rights In America

Sat Nov 06, 2004 3:09 am

Why should I pay for a gay person's AIDS treatment?

Gotta agree with Jeff there




Would you pay for a straight person's?

No




Heck, would you help anyone with AIDS?

Sure I would... if contracted a rifle along with guaranteed-immunity  Laugh out loud





It appears that only 2% of the heterosexuals in mississipi support gay marriage.

Too bad you're assuming all homosexuals support gay marriage....
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
ejmmsu
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RE: Gay Rights In America

Sat Nov 06, 2004 4:15 am

"Too bad you're assuming all homosexuals support gay marriage...."

I strongly doubt there is a meaningful portion of the homosexual population that supports legislation outlawing gay marriage. I mean come on, really......
Lets be real.......
"If the facts do not conform to the theory, they will have to be disposed of"
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Gay Rights In America

Sat Nov 06, 2004 4:28 am

I strongly doubt there is a meaningful portion of the homosexual population that supports legislation outlawing gay marriage.

Sorta like {best Sharpton voice} there's no meaniful portion of the minority population who oppose Affirmative Action legislation {/Sharpton}, right?
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
dtwclipper
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RE: Gay Rights In America

Sat Nov 06, 2004 5:09 am

ConcordeBoy:

Let us remember that there are thousands of people who are HIV positive that contracted the virus in the early 80's before it was known what HIV was all about.

Most of them are, because of advances in medications, paying taxes, working, and are important members of society.

To deny "innocent" victims assistance is imho inhumane.

Let us also remember, that HIV/AIDS is no longer a Gay problem. Just take a look at Africa and Asia.
Compare New York Air, the Airline that works for your Business
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Gay Rights In America

Sat Nov 06, 2004 5:27 am

To deny "innocent" victims assistance is imho inhumane.

...sad for them, I'll admit. Sadly, their plight is incredibly overshadowed  Sad



Let us also remember, that HIV/AIDS is no longer a Gay problem

Agreed



Just take a look at Africa and Asia.

*shrugs*
point being?
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
concord977
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RE: Gay Rights In America

Sat Nov 06, 2004 5:43 am

I think it is interesting that Gay activists such as the Human Rights Campaign have been relatively quiet in recent years. In the early 90's, hundreds of thousands of gay people were very mobilized to work toward equal rights. Today, that whole movement has lost a lot of momentum.

So what I find strange is that it is the protectionist Republicans who pushed this issue into the spotlight as a way of preempting a problem.

In other words, there were far more people trying to prevent gay unions than there were people trying to promote it.

The liberal/conservative pendulum has swung very far to the right. Sooner or later it will return to a center position. Only then will it be possible to work toward equal rights for all the right reasons, instead of battling the conservatives due to their fear and hysteria.

Gay unions and gay marriage should be about love and commitment, not about political activism.
No info
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
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RE: Gay Rights In America

Sat Nov 06, 2004 6:34 am

point being?

The point being is that everybody except for you and Jeff M care about the plight of mankind.

N
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Gay Rights In America

Sat Nov 06, 2004 6:55 am

...and that's bad becauseee?
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
jhooper
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RE: Gay Rights In America

Mon Nov 08, 2004 5:28 am

I doubt this has anything to do with "defense of marriage". The bottom line is that most Americans are against homosexuality, period. Against gay marriage, against gay civil unions, against gay boy scouts, against gay teachers, against gays in the military, against gay politicians--you catch the drift. If you put a question on the ballot that said "Should gay people be allowed to live in my community?" most communities would probably vote "No". That's just the bottom line. If people believed there was nothing wrong with homosexuality, then they wouldn't have a problem with gay marriage or the rest of the laundry list. It's just easier to ban gay marriage than it is to ban gay teachers, etc.
Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
 
iowaman
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RE: Gay Rights In America

Mon Nov 08, 2004 5:37 am

Gay men should have the right to marry, it's they're choice, why should someone else control your sexuality.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Gay Rights In America

Mon Nov 08, 2004 5:57 am

If people believed there was nothing wrong with homosexuality, then they wouldn't have a problem with gay marriage or the rest of the laundry list. It's just easier to ban gay marriage than it is to ban gay teachers, etc.


True, but still not quite the legal issue at hand...

...the real issues are:

1) whether or not homosexuality is a CHOICE or an preconditioned ORIENTATION
2) and if it's not, whether or not that orientation could be (for lack of a better word) REHABILITATED


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Nearly all ACTUAL gays, including myself, would tell you that the answer to question number 1 is a resounding "no", as common sense would seem to dictate....

....or would it?

It's not so simple convincing everyone (including the government) of that-- particularly when you have such instances as the Gay Porn Industry, or Girls Gone Wild, where the majority of participants are heterosexuals choosing to engage in homosexual activity in exchange for incentives. The incredibly hypocritical double-standard that Western society places on girl/girl homosexuality vis-a-vis male doesn't exactly help either.


Sad as it may be, for every little homo who loses his family/respect/life because of his orientation; the aforementioned emboldened factors convince the mainstream again and again that it's only a choice.

So long as that perception remains, there'll always be justification for legislation discriminating gays.


My mother always told me:
"Life is yours: the only things you have to do are be Black and Pay Taxes
...never bothered correcting her with the addition of a third
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
Cactus739
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RE: Gay Rights In America

Mon Nov 08, 2004 6:16 am

Iowaman, don't forget women my friend. I know a couple lesbians that would love to get married.  Smile

You can't fix stupid.... - Ron White
 
lehpron
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RE: Gay Rights In America

Mon Nov 08, 2004 11:00 am

>>"The bottom line is that most Americans are against homosexuality, period. Against gay marriage, against gay civil unions, against gay boy scouts, against gay teachers, against gays in the military, against gay politicians--you catch the drift. If you put a question on the ballot that said "Should gay people be allowed to live in my community?" most communities would probably vote "No". That's just the bottom line."<<

You have such a small world, Jhooper. I'll bet you could reach the limits of your imagination, huh? My point: just because you feel so strongly doesn't mean everyone also does. That is what I mean by small world; that if a bunch of folks (your fav news reporter, celeb,etc.) agrees with you, the whole world has to feel exactly the same as you do. They are your world.

(BTW, the following does not contradict what you said, rather a lot of people live in a small world.)

Fact 1: Since 90% of Americans are of Christian faith, religion matters. Tradition comes from religion and when people hear something about gays (something that the bible cliams is disgusting) they do not want to have anything to do with it.

Fact 2:, not wanting to have anything to do with anything is a fear.

FAct 3:, Tradition roots from religion + marriage was passed down from religion + that if gays are so hated by religion = then a gay marriage would be out of the question.

Fact 4, people are now pulling a clinton with regards to the definition of a marriage being different from a civil union.

As far as I know, gay couples are not asking for a legal title, they want the legal benifits. Religious/traditional folks simply fear the title, a civil union wouldn't bother them -- i.e., "I will not sit in a sofa, but I will sit in a love seat."

And the right claims the left has hissy fits about being politically correct...this is one example for them.
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
 
ConcordeBoy
Posts: 16852
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 8:04 am

RE: Gay Rights In America

Mon Nov 08, 2004 12:05 pm

the whole world has to feel exactly the same as you do.

The "whole world" is irrelevant... he was speaking within the context of America
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
jhooper
Posts: 5560
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 8:27 pm

RE: Gay Rights In America

Mon Nov 08, 2004 12:32 pm

(BTW, the following does not contradict what you said, rather a lot of people live in a small world.)

That's right; you can't condradict what I said, because what I said is true. I didn't say it was my opinion, nor did I say this attitude was right. I just said that's the way it is in the U.S.
Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: Gay Rights In America

Mon Nov 08, 2004 1:00 pm

Hence, the government should intervene and unilaterally establish gay rights.

They did it for black rights... they can do it for us.

Its FREEDOM people. That's what America is supposed to be about.

N
 
MD-90
Posts: 7835
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2000 12:45 pm

RE: Gay Rights In America

Mon Nov 08, 2004 1:05 pm

If my plane crashed, I want my partner to be recognized and receive what ever compensation a married spouse would receive.

I want to be allowed to visit my partner in the hospital without having to produce a legal document.

I want to be sure my partner will continue to receive health benefits through my company (in jeopardy by Michigan Prop. 2)

We don't need the Social Security death benefits that married couples receive, but many do, we are going on 18 years, why shouldn't we. Hetro's married for a long time, and then divorce, the spouse still receives the full benefits of the Husband after his death. I know this, because this is the case of my Grandmother.

I want to be able to file a joint tax return. We have a mortgage, pay our property taxes, school mils., but can not reap the benefit of the tax laws.

I want to be sure that gay parents will not loose custody of their children.



None of which involve the religious institution of marriage. What you're seeking are state-granted rights. Thus, a civil union. The state only became involved in marriages because they were so prevalent (and were much more stable and prevalent before the growth of the mammoth federal gov't in the 20th century) and convenient for the state to recognize.

I don't support civil unions, really, because I don't care, but marriage is between a man and a woman (excepting that yes, it used to be one man and as many women as he could afford). No level of government should be involved in defining marriage. That is up to the Catholic Church, or the Southern Baptist Convention, or the United Methodist Church, etc.

I oppose the DOMA and any Constitutional Amendment mucking about with marriage.



Let us also remember, that HIV/AIDS is no longer a Gay problem

I have to disagree with that (as regards the US, at least). Statistically, gay men are still the most likely to get AIDS by far, with druggies a distant second, and people who have sex with druggies even farther behind.



Ejmmsu, the 1 in 10 figure is gay propaganda. Nationally, it's probably more like 2-3 in 100. So there were maybe 10% straights who voted against the measure, 88% for it, and maybe 2% gays who probably voted against it.
 
SegmentKing
Posts: 3224
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2000 7:16 am

RE: Gay Rights In America

Mon Nov 08, 2004 2:08 pm

DTWclipper, I'm trying to add you to my respected users list but I guess I have to pay & upgrade for that!

I"m with you all the way.

-n
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