airbus3801
Posts: 1047
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2004 12:49 pm

Did Anything Actually Positive Happen With Bush?

Sat Nov 06, 2004 4:27 pm

When I really think back and look at the last four years of hell, I really don't see a positve thing that Bush has done for this country? Why has the country just turned to vote on just family matters instead of thinking of the better of the country. What is it your buisness whether you can tell someone who they cannot marry or if they cannot have their child. You have no right, and the fact that others vote for Bush because he is so religious disgusts me because it appears to me that all of the righties have gone just a little selfish for what this country can take. Bushcheney2004, your thoughts?

just my $0.02.....
 
USAIRWAYS321
Posts: 1705
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 4:31 pm

RE: Did Anything Actually Positive Happen With Bush?

Sat Nov 06, 2004 4:32 pm

Don't ask Bushcheney2004. In his mind, anything good that happened at all since 2000 is a direct result of Bush's election, including the fact that I found a quarter on the ground this morning.  Insane
 
yokohama1970
Posts: 196
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2004 3:50 pm

RE: Did Anything Actually Positive Happen With Bus

Sat Nov 06, 2004 4:53 pm

One thing: Bush/Cheney will not be on the 2008 presidential election ballot!

I voted for: Dukakis in 1988, Clinton/Gore in 1992 & 1996, Ralph Nader in 2000 & Kerry/Edwards in 2004, obviously I am not a George (H or W) Bush supporter.

Bush/Cheney being re-elected continues to fuel the fire of Bin Laden's wrath!
This is a very dark time in US & International Politics.

At least I will continue to change the TV channel or turn it off, when Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld (Hitler), Ashcroft or Rice appear. I can tolerate printed material (NY Times), but the site of these leaders is infuriating & humiliating! I only hope that the USA can survive until 2008? Best wishes.

Tom

http://usa.mediamonitors.net/content/view/full/11033/
Thank You Derek! Good Luck with the LA Dodgers
 
ConcordeBoy
Posts: 16852
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RE: Did Anything Actually Positive Happen With Bus

Sat Nov 06, 2004 4:54 pm

I guess if you don't count:
  • freeing two nations from totalitarian regimes
  • giving Europe the finger
  • reversing the Clinton/Gore recession
  • Federally financing stem cell research
  • preventing fatal/mass terrorism on USA shores since 9/11
  • etc....

    ...then I could see your "point".
  • Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
     
    NWA742
    Posts: 4505
    Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 11:35 am

    RE: Did Anything Actually Positive Happen With Bush?

    Sat Nov 06, 2004 4:58 pm

    In addition to Concordeboy's list:

    - He got re-elected and caused a few INSANELY hardcore liberal crybabies to consider moving to Canada. Please, you morons, get the hell out if you think this country is so horrible and doomed because of Bush..........and do the sane majority of America a favor.



    -NWA742
    Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
     
    Q330
    Posts: 1425
    Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2003 5:30 pm

    RE: Did Anything Actually Positive Happen With Bush?

    Sat Nov 06, 2004 5:06 pm

    reversing the Clinton/Gore recession

    Oh, but plunging the country into trillions of dollars of debt is OK.

    preventing fatal/mass terrorism on USA shores since 9/11

    Uh...but he didn't prevent fatal/mass terrorism on USA shores on 9/11, did he? And has it occurred to you that maybe the fact that there hasn't been a major attack since then has just been because no terrorists have decided to attack? Give me an example of a major attack that Bush has prevented.

    -Q
    Long live the A330!
     
    WellHung
    Posts: 3299
    Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 8:50 pm

    RE: Did Anything Actually Positive Happen With Bush?

    Sat Nov 06, 2004 5:24 pm

    preventing fatal/mass terrorism on USA shores since 9/11



    Homer: Not a bear in sight. The Bear Patrol must be working like a charm.
    Lisa: That's specious reasoning, Dad.
    Homer: Thank you, dear.
    Lisa: By your logic I could claim that this rock keeps tigers away.
    Homer: Oh, how does it work?
    Lisa: It doesn't work.
    Homer: Uh-huh.
    Lisa: It's just a stupid rock.
    Homer: Uh-huh.
    Lisa: But I don't see any tigers around, do you?
    Homer: Lisa, I want to buy your rock.


    [Edited 2004-11-06 09:42:31]
     
    Q330
    Posts: 1425
    Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2003 5:30 pm

    RE: Did Anything Actually Positive Happen With Bush?

    Sat Nov 06, 2004 5:31 pm

    lol, WellHung! You said it better than I could.

    -Q
    Long live the A330!
     
    ConcordeBoy
    Posts: 16852
    Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 8:04 am

    RE: Did Anything Actually Positive Happen With Bus

    Sat Nov 06, 2004 6:17 pm

    Uh...but he didn't prevent fatal/mass terrorism on USA shores on 9/11, did he?

    Nope, even though Clinton dropped the ball on that MUCH more than Bush.
    Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
     
    airbus3801
    Posts: 1047
    Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2004 12:49 pm

    RE: Did Anything Actually Positive Happen With Bush?

    Sun Nov 07, 2004 12:57 am

    In addition to Concordeboy's list:

    - He got re-elected and caused a few INSANELY hardcore liberal crybabies to consider moving to Canada. Please, you morons, get the hell out if you think this country is so horrible and doomed because of Bush..........and do the sane majority of America a favor.



    Well, those people are leaving the country because of a good reason,because this election, the American people didn't think about benefiting the country but if Bush was for or against abortion. How dumb is that? Well you would do the sane people or airliners.net a favor and stop constantly attacking liberals for their actions because then we will stop attacking you....


    Bush has ruined my future

    A I R B U S 3 8 0 # 1
     
    LHSebi
    Posts: 1007
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    RE: Did Anything Actually Positive Happen With Bush?

    Sun Nov 07, 2004 1:04 am

    WellHung,
    Great!  Big thumbs up One of the first things I absolutely agree with you on!  Big grin Couldn't be more fitting than that! Thanks!

    giving Europe the finger

    And this is a good thing because...?

    Sebastian
    I guess that's what happens in the end, you start thinking about the beginning.
     
    N771AN
    Posts: 411
    Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 12:27 pm

    RE: Did Anything Actually Positive Happen With Bush?

    Sun Nov 07, 2004 1:06 am

    And this is a good thing because...?

    Europe likes to be fingered?  Confused
     
    ren41
    Posts: 1456
    Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2001 3:24 am

    RE: Did Anything Actually Positive Happen With Bush?

    Sun Nov 07, 2004 1:08 am

    Airbus3801's sig:

    The worst four years of my life has begun. Bush has ruined my future

    How does Bush ruin the future of a 13-15 year old? Just curious. When you're that age, many of the President's decisions don't affect your life at all. You don't have to pay taxes or anything.

    R41
     
    LHSebi
    Posts: 1007
    Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2004 4:24 am

    RE: Did Anything Actually Positive Happen With Bush?

    Sun Nov 07, 2004 1:15 am

    Europe likes to be fingered?

    Thank you for yet another intelligent remark.  Insane
    I guess that's what happens in the end, you start thinking about the beginning.
     
    zak
    Posts: 1926
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    RE: Did Anything Actually Positive Happen With Bus

    Sun Nov 07, 2004 1:39 am

    "How does Bush ruin the future of a 13-15 year old? Just curious. When you're that age, many of the President's decisions don't affect your life at all. You don't have to pay taxes or anything."


    someone has to pay the debt. and it wont be the current taxpayer! just something to think about!
    10=2
     
    Guest

    RE: Did Anything Actually Positive Happen With Bush?

    Sun Nov 07, 2004 1:46 am

    To add to the list
    -Put into effect the no call list(We should all be able to agree that we don't like telemarketers calling our houses) Anyone disagree with this?
    -Stopped partial birth abortion
     
    kellmark
    Posts: 542
    Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2000 12:05 pm

    RE: Did Anything Actually Positive Happen With Bush?

    Sun Nov 07, 2004 2:09 am

    It is always amazing to see how some people who think that they are open minded (liberal) and claim that others are narrow minded are really the ones with the problem. To be religious is to be closed minded, yet to be liberal is to be right. (We see no tolerance from liberals after the election. The electorate is either "stupid' or prejudiced against gays or the candidate was "poor". It is not the radical liberal idealogy which is at fault.).To be pro-life is closed minded, yet to be for abortion is to be right. (All those who favor abortion have already been born). To be against gay marriage is to be close minded, yet to be in favor of a radical judge to change society in their way is to be right. (The assumption is that people have no right to vote on a change that will fundamentally change the basis of relationships). And as far as religion, it is you who are prejudiced. You have the freedom of religion,to practice it or not, but attack those who believe in one. If Bush has core values which help serve his country, that is fine with me. It is those without those values like Kerry and Clinton who fail to act when necessary.

    And as far as Europe, it is a problem for many Americans that the same Europe (particularly France and Germany) that has many American soldiers buried in cemetaries there, has chosen to ignore the Islamo -Fascist threat which threatens us all or even aid them in certain ways (France). Yet this does not protect them. Note the recent killing of Van Gogh in Holland, and yet another plot in Spain. Being an ostrich does not protect you.

    One of the big reasons that George Bush was re elected was that most Americans recognize that he is far more capable in defending us against this threat than Kerry was with his heavily anti-war background and constant waffling on the issues. We also don't want to give up our right of self defense in a dangerous world to the likes of Kofi Annan or Jacques Chirac.

    And finally, for someone to say that they have been in "hell" for the last four years is an amazing statement. Even when Clinton was being serviced by Monica or accepting bribes for pardons, while he ignored the threats from Al Qaeda, I didn't think that I was in "hell".

    But under Bush you got a tax cut, as did ALL Americans. Unemployment is very low, lower than when Clinton was re-elected. And half that of "old" Europe, I might add. The latest jobs report is record breaking in the increase. Home ownership is up. Incomes are up. Economic growth is doing well. Afghanistan is free with democratic elections for the first time in its history. Iraq is free of Saddam and is on its way to democracy in spite of all of the nay sayers. Nobody said that war is easy, but elections will be held there in January. Most people in the US are generally doing very well, in spite of the 9/11 attacks and the previous recession.

    So don't give me any crap about what has Bush done for the last 4 years.
     
    ren41
    Posts: 1456
    Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2001 3:24 am

    RE: Did Anything Actually Positive Happen With Bush?

    Sun Nov 07, 2004 2:20 am

    someone has to pay the debt. and it wont be the current taxpayer! just something to think about!

    Even if Kerry was elected someone would still have to pay the debt. Just something to think about!

    R41
     
    cwapilot
    Posts: 1085
    Joined: Mon May 01, 2000 7:10 am

    RE: Did Anything Actually Positive Happen With Bush?

    Sun Nov 07, 2004 2:40 am

    At the video store, right next to "When Sharks Attack" is a new film called "When the Left Loses". JAYSUS H CHRIST are you people a bunch of whiners. Last I checked, the sun rises and sets as it has since the dawn of time, the moon hasn't exploded, more people than ever own homes, everyone in the country keeps more of what they earn, terrorists are flocking to Iraq instead of New York and we are fighting them there instead of on the streets of New York AND if the doom and gloom you predict actually comes to pass, it can all be changed in 2 years...remember, THERE WILL BE ANOTHER ELECTION! And I do realize that is a scary proposition for you...Dems sound more and more like Cub fans with each election; "We'll get em next year".....but, you will have another chance.

    I have heard the word "shrill" to describe the left...I never realized how accurate it is. Being out of power sucks...but you should be used to it by now. Bill Clinton's 1994 crushing election defeat across federal and state elections has sealed your fate for the foreseeable future.
    Southside Irish...our two teams are the White Sox and whoever plays the Cubs!
     
    Ralgha
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    RE: Did Anything Actually Positive Happen With Bus

    Sun Nov 07, 2004 2:50 am

    To be pro-life is closed minded, yet to be for abortion is to be right.

    Most people who are "for abortion" actually disagree with abortion. However, they feel that it is right to allow the woman to CHOOSE. I personally don't think abortion is right, but who am I to strip the choice from someone? Especially if I'll never have to make that choice.

    You have the freedom of religion,to practice it or not, but attack those who believe in one.

    They get "attacked" because they try to force their beliefs on others. For example, gay marriage. "You will not do it because the Bible says it's wrong." If that's not forcing your beliefs on someone else, then I don't know what is. You can believe whatever you want to, I really don't care what you believe in. Just don't expect me to believe the same thing, and you know what? What I believe or you believe has NO EFFECT ON ANYONE ELSE.

    To be against gay marriage is to be close minded, yet to be in favor of a radical judge to change society in their way is to be right.

    I must have missed something here, what are you talking about?

    One of the big reasons that George Bush was re elected was that most Americans recognize that he is far more capable in defending us against this threat

    More capable how? By creating the Department of Homeland Security? The TSA? Creating TFRs over football games? Preventing GA from going anywhere near Washington DC? The simple fact is that cars present a far, far bigger threat than does GA, yet that simple fact is utterly and completely ignored. Someone could load about 300 pounds of explosives in a C-152. Then they could go drop it, or crash into, anything they wanted to, and the TFRs wouldn't even slow them down. On the other hand, that same person could load a couple thousand pounds of explosives in a small car, proceed to drive absolutly anywhere they wanted to, and blow up a far bigger place than the 152 managed to.

    Hey, I don't see any tigers around, my rock must be working.
    09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
     
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    n229nw
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    RE: Did Anything Actually Positive Happen With Bus

    Sun Nov 07, 2004 3:36 am

    How does Bush ruin the future of a 13-15 year old? Just curious. When you're that age, many of the President's decisions don't affect your life at all. You don't have to pay taxes or anything.

    Well beyond the fact, which has already been pointed out, that he will end up paying off the deficit:

    He could be drafted into Iraq or Bush's NEXT "pre-emptive" act of illegal agression

    He will be the biggest victim of the Bush administration's environmental crimes. His generation will be left with the cancer, mutations, etc. from Bush's toxic waste and pollution policies, and the flooding, etc. and global economic fallout from Bush's energy-industry-controlled EPA and its (lack of) global warming legacy.

    He and his family will be left living under whatever (at least short-term irreversible) decisions are made by an increasingly right-wing supreme court

    He will be regarded with suspicion and resentment in most places he travels for many years to come.
    All Glory to the Hypnotoad!
     
    Klaus
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    Kellmark

    Sun Nov 07, 2004 3:48 am

    Kellmark: And as far as Europe, it is a problem for many Americans that the same Europe (particularly France and Germany) that has many American soldiers buried in cemetaries there, has chosen to ignore the Islamo -Fascist threat which threatens us all or even aid them in certain ways (France). Yet this does not protect them. Note the recent killing of Van Gogh in Holland, and yet another plot in Spain. Being an ostrich does not protect you.

    If you should in fact be who you claim to be (a professor of aviation), you´re decidedly punching below your supposed weight, even if your field is "just" a technical one.

    You´re trying to purposely obfuscate the truth:

    Afghanistan was indeed harbouring terrorists and the operation base of Al Qaeda. After 9-11, the whole world was united in the effort to defeat them and to free Afghanistan. And - as much as you are apparently attempting to obscure this fact - all the allies are still engaged in this fight, the real fight against terrorism.

    Iraq, on the other hand, had no valid connection whatsoever to 9-11 or to Al Qaeda (even refused to establish a cooperation with them); They didn´t pose a credible threat to the USA or to anybody else. Even so, the Bush administration chose to shove all international efforts aside and invade - a clear war of aggression that is explicitly outlawed by the german constitution.

    It is very sad that you are trying to mash those two fundamentally different campaigns together so that the legitimacy of the former would somehow "rub off" on the latter. This has worked splendidly within the domestic american bubble of a docile press and an equally silenced opposition, both too scared to object to blatantly obvious untruths and misrepresentations.

    I can understand that you may still hope that the confusion might endure; But I doubt you´ll be that lucky.

    Europe has and still is engaged in the actual fight against terrorism, while your administration sadly has made a gigantic mess that is only deepening the crisis and creating ever more terrorists.

    You may not share my conclusions, but pretending that Europe´s refusal to take part in the botched Iraq invasion did in any way diminish or nullify our engagement in the real fight against terrorism is just intellectually dishonest and unworthy of somebody who claims to teach others on an advanced level.

    Doing anything is not something to be proud of - doing the right thing is! And despite all the threats, the bullying and the abuse standing our ground is something I am proud of for myself and for our governments.
     
    alphascan
    Posts: 795
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    RE: Did Anything Actually Positive Happen With Bush?

    Sun Nov 07, 2004 3:53 am

    I must have missed something here, what are you talking about?

    The problem with taking liberal positions summed up very concisely. Thank you Ralgha.
    "To he who only has a hammer in his toolbelt, every problem looks like a nail."
     
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    HeyMach
    Posts: 111
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    RE: Did Anything Actually Positive Happen With Bush?

    Sun Nov 07, 2004 5:15 am

    freeing two nations from totalitarian regimes

    Perhaps Kabul and the Green Zone in Baghdad can be remotely described as "free". The remainder of Afghanistan and Iraq are a terrorists' playground. The former hastily evacuated and left largely to fend for itself so that Saint Dubya could proudly invade on his charger Ofelia (Dubya's spelling (!) not mine) that supposed hot bed of terrorism Iraq. Come on Concordeboy - get in line and smell the coffee!
     
    kellmark
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    RE: Did Anything Actually Positive Happen With Bush?

    Sun Nov 07, 2004 7:22 am

    Ralgha.
    GA is a security threat whether you think so or not. Even a GA aircraft can carry a significant payload and is much more mobile and deadly than a car bomb. The TFRs are the price we pay. Blame Osama, not Bush. And what do you suggest about Homeland Security? To have nothing? Not exactly an argument.

    Regarding abortion, you support a woman's right to choose. I think that it should only be done if the mother's life is in danger. But the unborn have no choice. Life is the most precious of all things. It should be protected. What if YOUR mother had decided to have an abortion?

    Re gay marriage and the court decison, that was the Massachuissetts court that allowed gay marriage. They simply mandated it out of whole cloth.

    Klaus.

    If you want to argue points then argue them. It is pitiful when you make a personal attack. If you are a flight instructor or software developer or whatever, I do not demean your knowledge or abilities. Your arguments should speak for you.

    Iraq did have clear connections to terrorism. Anwar al Islam, Zarqawi. Hamas. And the lovely fellow Abbas who threw wheelchair bound Leon Klinghoffer off the cruise ship who was living in Iraq. All were either in Iraq or had connections to it. Not to mention the nature of the regime itself. You can defend the practices of Saddam if you want and refuse to do anything about it. I will not.

    Saddam and Iraq were a credible threat. Thay had an active nuclear program. They had the knowledge and the capability to build them. They also had 3 types of missiles they had developed which were illegal. These were all banned under UN sanctions. Yet none of the sanctions had stopped them.

    You may think that Europe is at the front line against terrorism. But the facts just do not show it. What aggressive moves have the Europeans made? I am waiting to hear about them. They couldn't even stop the slaughter in the Balkans without US help. Actually, the fact is they simply stood by and watched the slaughter right there in Europe and refused to take action, like the Dutch at Sebrenica. No back bone whatsoever. It might disturb their holidays or pensions.

    Europe just keeps on patronizing muslim radicals and the states that support them and refuses to deal with them, as more and more of them immigrate into Europe.

    I saw that the German magazine Bild endorsed George Bush last week. One of their reasons was that if the US fights terrorism then they won't have to. Very brave of them. That says it for me.
     
    StarAC17
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    RE: Did Anything Actually Positive Happen With Bush?

    Sun Nov 07, 2004 7:44 am

    One of the big reasons that George Bush was re elected was that most Americans recognize that he is far more capable in defending us against this threat

    Not true IMO also that question cannot be answered without Kerry having a chance to actually fight terror as president which won't happen for another 4 years at least. Also Bush didn't win the election on that he won using Christian values that gave all the religious people a reason to vote for him because of the the things he opposes such as gay marriage and abortion. His view on terror were a part of his win but not the main reason.
    Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
     
    JBLUA320
    Posts: 2997
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    RE: Did Anything Actually Positive Happen With Bush?

    Sun Nov 07, 2004 7:47 am

    I'm so sick of politics. This is a democracy. You come here knowing that you wont always get your way. And you come here knowing that when you dont get your way you can always leave.

    We talked about the election in class... we decided we were happy we couldnt vote. It'd be a disservice to our country nomatter who ended up in office.

    Essentially, it was a choice between two republicans.

    Where is this country headed? And if anyone dares to answer that question with a "its Bush's fault" then you need to wake up. Every president has an agenda. And every move they make affects the world, sometimes for a day, sometimes for a lifetime, sometimes forever. Its easy to blame it on Bush...what with all your "I cant believe we voted a president who cant even construct a sentence". Please...

    Deal with it or get out. The door is wide open- air travel now is cheaper than its been in a long time. Get your bags and go- you live in a democracy, nothing is stopping you. Savor that freedom-- atleast, despite who becomes our president ,we will always have that.

    JBLUA320
     
    Lono
    Posts: 1136
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    RE: Did Anything Actually Positive Happen With Bush?

    Sun Nov 07, 2004 1:08 pm

    And this is a good thing because...?

    Europe likes to be fingered?

    Holy siht... lmao!!!!!

    Best thing with Bush winning is John Kerry has crawled back into his mansion... and I have not had to hear his BS for almost 3 days now.... SWEET!!!!
    Wally Bird Ruled the Skys!
     
    Continental
    Posts: 5222
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    RE: Did Anything Actually Positive Happen With Bush?

    Sun Nov 07, 2004 1:19 pm

    Concordeboy wrote:

    "giving Europe the finger
    reversing the Clinton/Gore recession
    preventing fatal/mass terrorism on USA shores since 9/11
    etc...."

    Those were possibly the most ignorant things you've said to date. Giving Europe the finger? I thought since we freed those 2 countries from totalitarian regimes, we would be making the world a better place, so giving the finger to Europe is OK. Great logic. Reversing the recession? You've got to be kidding me! It's a shame Clinton had the largest sustained economic expansion! Preventing another 9-11? I figured people like you would say this, of course nothing hasn't happened since, but you don't think Thousands Standing Around actually stopped them, right??

    Give me a break!!!
     
    aa757first
    Posts: 3140
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    RE: Did Anything Actually Positive Happen With Bush?

    Sun Nov 07, 2004 1:29 pm

    What is it your buisness (sic) whether you can tell someone who they cannot marry
    When eleven states, something has to tell you that Americans don't want same sex couples getting married. "But they are all country hicks who voted for Bush." Nope. Oregon voted for Kerry and against gay marriage. As did Michigan.

    if they cannot have their child
    No, its not. It is his right to stop murder. Abortion = murder with a fancy name. Sucking out a human being with a vacuum cleaner sounds pretty hellish me. Well, don't worry. You could inject a saline solution and give birth a dead, burnt baby.

    because he is so religious disgusts
    I don't ever remember him saying "Vote for me because I'm Christian." He doesn't do it to look good. He doesn't do it so more people approve of him. He does it because that's what he believes it.

    AAndrew
     
    Klaus
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    Kellmark

    Sun Nov 07, 2004 1:44 pm

    Kellmark: If you want to argue points then argue them. It is pitiful when you make a personal attack. If you are a flight instructor or software developer or whatever, I do not demean your knowledge or abilities. Your arguments should speak for you.

    Are you kidding me?

    You set the tone with your very own low-blows above. If you want a special rebate in the discussion, earn it.


    Kellmark: Iraq did have clear connections to terrorism.

    The official White House propaganda strongly alleged a direct connection between Saddam and 9-11. And up to 70%(!!!) of the american public actually swallowed it hook, line and sinker, although it was and is definitely false (even Bush had to admit that ultimately, but with a lot less public impact than the incessant repetitions of the falsehood before that). Even now up to 50% of the american public still believe in this fairy-tale. Don´t tell me those 50% haven´t played a major role in electing Bush in the recent election.

    The post-facto attempts to modify the original argumentation to alleviate the embarrassment are fruitless: It´s all on the record.

    None of the examples constituted a credible threat against the USA, let alone one that would have been so urgent that Hans Blix just had to be shoved aside before he could finish his work.

    Citing terrorists that were located outside of Saddam´s reach in the US-controlled zone is entirely ridiculous and gives testimony of the level of desperation to find anything to justify the indefensible.


    Kellmark: Saddam and Iraq were a credible threat.

    As everybody suspected and as the UN and the US inspections have confirmed without any reasonable doubt, they were not.

    Kellmark: Thay had an active nuclear program.

    As everybody suspected and as the UN and the US inspections have confirmed without any reasonable doubt, they did not.

    Kellmark: They had the knowledge and the capability to build them.

    Knowledge - probably. Capability - no (see above). The nuclear program was effectively controlled and prevented by the sanctions and by the IAEA. Before the looting under the eyes of the US occupation, all nuclear and related materials were locked and accounted for.

    Kellmark: They also had 3 types of missiles they had developed which were illegal. These were all banned under UN sanctions. Yet none of the sanctions had stopped them.

    Actually, the UN inspectors dismantled them before the US invasion. And even so, they only marginally exceeded their permitted range and were atrociously unreliable. By no means would they have made a reliable WMD carrier. The big, bad bogeyman was actually a mouse. An evil one, but still a mouse.


    Kellmark: You may think that Europe is at the front line against terrorism. But the facts just do not show it.

    It doesn´t get much more front-line than Afghanistan, where US-financed warlords and mostly unharmed Taleban are still ruling most of the country due to US troops being diverted to an entirely unnecessary invasion of Iraq. Our troops have their hands full trying to stabilize and to rebuild the country. It would help a lot if we weren´t forced to rely on US troops, but that´s simply not possible at this time.

    Iraq is full of insurgents the botched US occupation has created or attracted - I don´t see why our guys should be provided as cannon-fodder like the british troops were. Iraq has had nothing to do with the fight against terrorism. Even if 50% of the american public still believe otherwise.


    Kellmark: What aggressive moves have the Europeans made?

    There was no hesitation to go into Afghanistan, even though this decision was a lot harder for Germany than it was for the USA.

    There have also been many successes of european law enforcement agencies against terrorist cells and their associates.

    The keyword is an effective fight against terrorism; Aggressive is useless if it´s not effective. The difference couldn´t be any clearer when you´re looking into Iraq right now.


    Kellmark: They couldn't even stop the slaughter in the Balkans without US help.

    Indeed. What you´re ignoring, however, is the fact that it suited US cold war strategies just fine to keep the European countries from developing any aggressive military capabilities (with Germany being an obvious example). Now when it happens to suit you otherwise, you´re complaining about it.

    Kellmark: Actually, the fact is they simply stood by and watched the slaughter right there in Europe and refused to take action,

    Incorrect. Europe pushed the US for an earlier intervention. Things weren´t quite that simple. We knew our limitations; It would not have made sense to go in with insufficient power - such as the US troops in Iraq, for instance.

    Kellmark: like the Dutch at Sebrenica.

    No doubt, it was a shameful low point of the engagement. And one of the driving forces behind the joint military development within Europe today. Since we now know more than ever that we need independent capabilities, the direction is changing.

    Kellmark: No back bone whatsoever. It might disturb their holidays or pensions.

    Even when you´re cornered with your tissue-thin defense of the Iraq debacle, you shouldn´t get that despicable. Sad. Just sad...  Sad


    Kellmark: Europe just keeps on patronizing muslim radicals and the states that support them and refuses to deal with them, as more and more of them immigrate into Europe.

    I recommend you to actually look into this matter. That is complete and utter nonsense.

    We do, however, still grant people civil rights that you may believe are "redundant" when dealing with people who are "all guilty anyway".


    But tell me this: With Iraq and with all the hostile crap that everybody had to endure who dared to call Bush and Co. on their blatantly untrue excuses for the invasion, what exactly was it all the world was supposed to admire in the USA?

    Deception, insults, abuse, intimidation and open threats could be had from any run-of-the-mill tyrannical regime just as well (or as badly). Why should we take it from a nation we had long considered to be a friend? If you´re dumping everything that had made your country great at the first serious bump in the road, how could anybody trust you in the long run?
     
    N771AN
    Posts: 411
    Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 12:27 pm

    RE: Did Anything Actually Positive Happen With Bush?

    Sun Nov 07, 2004 1:46 pm

    Klaus,

    Please read the 9.11 Commission Report. There will be a few surprises in there for you.
     
    kellmark
    Posts: 542
    Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2000 12:05 pm

    RE: Did Anything Actually Positive Happen With Bush?

    Sun Nov 07, 2004 2:33 pm

    Klaus.

    You present far more opinions that actual facts. If the Europeans have a weak military you blame the US for it.

    You say you need independent capabilities. I am all in favor of it. But how much has your defense spending gone up?

    Regarding the muslimization of Europe and kowtowing to muslim radicals, here is another good example of it.

    http://maarten.typepad.com/brusselsblog/2004/11/thou_shalt_not_.html

    "In the Netherlands, artist Chris Ripke reacted to the murder of Theo Van Gogh by an islamic fundamentalist by painting a mural with the text "Gij zult niet doden" ("Thou Shalt Not Kill"), one of the ten commandments of the Christian religion.

    But because the head of the nearby mosque complained to the police that this was 'offensive' and 'racist', the cops came and sent in city workers to sandblast the mural.  A local journalist, Wim Nottroth, who wanted to protest against this by standing in front of the mural was arrested."

    With this kind of surrender in Europe, I don't think there is much hope for the survival of the great European culture and heritage. The muslims see the weakness and exploit it. Unless someone is willing to stand up to them and fight. And helping in Afghanistan, while significant, is not nearly enough.
     
    N317AS
    Posts: 941
    Joined: Thu May 20, 2004 1:25 pm

    RE: Did Anything Actually Positive Happen With Bush?

    Sun Nov 07, 2004 3:29 pm

    USAIRWAYS said:

    "In his mind, anything good that happened at all since 2000 is a direct result of Bush's election, including the fact that I found a quarter on the ground this morning"

    That's funny, since everything that went wrong last year, in the opinion of the left, was Bush's fault. Including when my neigbor's dog pissed on a cop's shoe.
    Some people are like Slinkies. They bring a smile to your face when you push them down a flight of stairs.
     
    ConcordeBoy
    Posts: 16852
    Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 8:04 am

    RE: Did Anything Actually Positive Happen With Bus

    Sun Nov 07, 2004 3:51 pm

    Reversing the recession? You've got to be kidding me! It's a shame Clinton had the largest sustained economic expansion!

    ...now widely considered the result of a bubble-economy that began to crumble well before the Bush administration was in office....
    Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
     
    airxliban
    Posts: 4285
    Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2003 12:14 pm

    RE: Did Anything Actually Positive Happen With Bush?

    Sun Nov 07, 2004 4:57 pm

    preventing fatal/mass terrorism on USA shores since 9/11

    cite one plot of fatal or mass terrorism that was foiled due to the bush administration. i literally can't think of one...enlighten me.
    PARIS, FRANCE...THE BEIRUT OF EUROPE.
     
    Klaus
    Posts: 20594
    Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

    Kellmark

    Sun Nov 07, 2004 7:51 pm

    Kellmark: You present far more opinions that actual facts.

    As long as we can agree on the factual part (no Saddam/9-11 link, no credible threat as confirmed by UN and US inspectors) I don´t have a problem with that. I´ve got evidence and proof on my side, so it´s not that difficult.  Wink/being sarcastic

    Kellmark: If the Europeans have a weak military you blame the US for it.

    Again, it´s not that simple. Our governments were quite content to have it that way for a long time as well. I just reject your rather extreme statements which put all the "blame" on the lazyness, cowardice or whatever evil you´re imagining in our governments.


    Kellmark: You say you need independent capabilities. I am all in favor of it. But how much has your defense spending gone up?

    Not a lot. Improvements are primarily achieved by shutting down the old cold-war structures and replacing them by new, more flexible ones (Germany is only surrounded by friends and partners - we don´t need that many tanks any more, but we´ll need the A400M for an airlift capability). In addition, redundant parallel structures in the national armies will have to be made more efficient by integration and cooperation. We´ve simply wasted a lot of resources in the past. Cutting that fat frees money to build more effective structures.

    The goal is not to become a hypertrophic nuclear superpower like the USA or Russia (once). The goal is to have indpendent crisis capabilities. And in that approach, a nuclear arsenal is secondary, if that.


    Kellmark: With this kind of surrender in Europe, I don't think there is much hope for the survival of the great European culture and heritage. The muslims see the weakness and exploit it. Unless someone is willing to stand up to them and fight.

    That is a part of the problem the USA is having right now: The current administration has (or better: knows) no other tool than the military sledge hammer - and it applies it to every conceivable problem, be it a demolition job, a family feud or a broken pocket watch.

    And the results are unsurprising: The intended heap of rubble, but also lots of broken bones and bruises and a small heap of smashed metal.

    In many cases the problem is not a lack of resolve, it´s a lack of distinction.

    While I agree that there are instances where european societies and authorities should act more forcefully, there are many more instances where it is appropriate to work for better understanding of each other, not as the well-ridiculed naive attempt to get all warm and fuzzy, but to recognize and defuse social tension before it hardens into a militant confrontation.

    Just discarding those distinctions and summarily talking about "the muslims" as if that would automatically mean the same thing as "the terrorists" is not just shortsighted, it´s outright dangerous.

    If you´re a decent and maybe even church-going christian (I don´t know, let´s just assume), I´m pretty sure you would greatly appreciate it if a jew or muslim would be able to make the distinction between your benign perspective and that of a hardened militant who´d torch synagogues or mosques without a second thought.

    Failing to even attempt such distinctions is a sure recipe for disaster. And that is why Iraq has gone down in flames instead of greeting its "liberators" with flowers and cheers. Again, there´s a difference between the leadership in Washington and the troops on the ground, for both better and worse (soldiers trying to help and improve the situation of the civilians and those who are kicking down doors, mistreating and insulting civilians or even torturing in Abu Ghraib and elsewhere - things are not simple; Some of the guys are indeed heroes, but some are just doing their job, just trying to survive and others are (or have turned into) abject criminals).

    In Europe, we´ve got our own problems and limitations; But if you completely ignore the substantial efforts to excise the most radical congregations from the muslim population by force if necessary (the muslim brotherhood in Germany, for instance), you´re missing the range and the complexity of the problem. Over here, we can´t and we won´t throw people into jail without due process. And experience has demonstrated that paranoid overreaction is very effective for escalation, but it does very little against the actual dangers. Deeply embedded terrorist cells can only be caught with good intelligence, not with brute force.

    Apart from Afghanistan, there hardly is another place on the planet where large military forces would do any good (and diverting troops specifically from there was especially stupid). Practically all successes in the fight against terror were based on good intelligence. Police or military force is only useful as a tool to execute on that basis. Without good intelligence, it´s just random violence, making things worse instead of better. Every kid that´s forced to watch his mother brutally being kicked around by a bunch of occupation soldiers can turn into the terrorist who´s blowing up a supply convoy later. Ignoring that is simply stupid. Terrorists are not born, they´re made. Extremists only need to harvest when the ground has been fertilized before.


    One essential difference is that Europe has never told anybody to "shove it" when things didn´t go our way. When the Bush administration put up unconditional demands for an unconvincing campaign, we had to refuse after many unsuccessful attempts to discuss the matter. But the only ones who claimed to know everything better than everybody else ultimately turned out to be wrong about everything. And everybody knows it.

    Still being in denial and at the same time demanding blind obedience is just deeply disappointing. Nothing can come of it. No insight, no support.

    It´s not stupid to want a simple answer; It´s stupid to enforce a simple answer even if all the valid ones are by necessity complex ones.

    Simple always "sells", but it usually doesn´t work.

    That is the problem most of the world (including half of your own population) has with your president and his merry men. And as long as they continue on that path, things will continue to deteriorate.  Sad
     
    kellmark
    Posts: 542
    Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2000 12:05 pm

    RE: Did Anything Actually Positive Happen With Bush?

    Mon Nov 08, 2004 12:58 am

    Klaus.

    We don't agree on the connection. The 9/11 report disagrees with you. You are simply wrong.

    Also, if an ally is an ally then they support you. We supported (West) Germany all through the cold war. We defeated the Soviets which allowed Germany to be reunited.

    But Americans now have a whole different view of Germany, France etc, due to their lack of will to fight and their extreme anti-Americanism.

    You can argue about civil rights all you want. America has a strong civil rights record, much stronger than Germany's I might add. But now we are at war. And even though Europe itself is threatened, you have taken the easy way out, trying to say that there was no connection to 9/11 and talking about "civil rights". What we are facing here is a whole different level of threat than one murderer or one car bomb. When the Islamo-fascists get the nuclear weapons they so greatly desire, and then use them, I am sure that you will refuse to recognize the threat even then.
     
    lehpron
    Posts: 6846
    Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2001 3:42 am

    RE: Did Anything Actually Positive Happen With Bush?

    Mon Nov 08, 2004 9:59 am

    >>"The muslims see the weakness and exploit it. Unless someone is willing to stand up to them and fight. "<<

    Kellmark, it is advisable that you elaborate on this, I am getting the impression that you are either being highly discriminitory or an ignorant racist. You should not reduce a group of people to a simple conclusion, that only works with numbers.

    Surely you do not squarely believe in the old western saying, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" with regards to Middle Eastern thinking?
    The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
     
    ConcordeBoy
    Posts: 16852
    Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 8:04 am

    RE: Did Anything Actually Positive Happen With Bus

    Mon Nov 08, 2004 10:05 am

    Kellmark, it is advisable that you elaborate on this

    Lemme dumb it down to Lehpron-level:

    The international terrorists; who are almost always muslims in these cases; see the weakness and exploit it. Unless someone is willing to stand up to them and fight.
    Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
     
    lehpron
    Posts: 6846
    Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2001 3:42 am

    RE: Did Anything Actually Positive Happen With Bush?

    Mon Nov 08, 2004 10:13 am

    That's cute C-bro, but I think you dumbed it up considering that you went from simple to complex. But until Kellmark acknowledges this, my impression still stands; there is technically no way he can reply to me after he has read your reply due to bias.

    The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
     
    kellmark
    Posts: 542
    Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2000 12:05 pm

    RE: Did Anything Actually Positive Happen With Bush?

    Mon Nov 08, 2004 10:33 am

    Lehpron.

    This has nothing to do with racism, but everything to do with ideology.

    The 19 hijackers of 9/11 were all muslims.
    The bombers in Bali were all muslims.
    The bombers in Spain were all muslims.
    The killer of Van Gogh was a muslim.

    I saw no methodists or presbyterians doing these things.

    It is not a question of racism but a radical extreme religious ideology.

    I also would not say that all muslims are responsible, but there is clearly a radical faction which thinks nothing of perpetrating these acts.

    I lived in a muslim country for a number of years and found it to be an interesting, cultured country at the time where I was made to feel welcome, but these days, things are different.

    I can't make it simpler than that.
     
    Klaus
    Posts: 20594
    Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

    Kellmark

    Mon Nov 08, 2004 11:57 am

    Kellmark: We don't agree on the connection. The 9/11 report disagrees with you. You are simply wrong.

    Sigh. Not that nonsense again.  Insane

    a) The "Prague connection" has been proven to have been immaterial.

    b) Terrorists in northern Iraq were in US-controlled territory. Quoting them as a reason to oust Saddam is dishonest and ridiculous.

    c) Saddam and Al Quaeda apparently had tentative contacts but both decided they hated and distrusted each other too much to cooperate on anything.

    d) Saddam´s support for the families of palestinian suicide bombers was certainly a bad thing. But again, nothing to justify invasion.

    e) Saddam´s interests were consistently concentrated on Saddam´s survival and gain of power. He never attempted or planned for anything as stupid as an attack on a nuclear superpower for all we know.

    The 9/11 report has nothing besides immaterial allegations regarding a connection between Saddam and Al Qaeda. It´s barely enough to prevent an immediate self-indictment of the US Congress for waging an unfounded war. But it´s certainly far too flimsy to justify the war, even in hindsight.

    Sorry, but no cigar.


    Kellmark: Also, if an ally is an ally then they support you. We supported (West) Germany all through the cold war. We defeated the Soviets which allowed Germany to be reunited.

    You´re making a fundamental mistake.

    You are apparently confusing the definition of "ally" as a friend who works with you to protect common interests with a mere vassal, a servant who can be ordered around at will by the bigger power.

    If you consider our opinions and experiences as generally worthless and undeserving of any kind of consideration, you´re on your own. Sorry. No real alliance, no support.

    Call us when you need friends again, not just servants.


    Kellmark: But Americans now have a whole different view of Germany, France etc, due to their lack of will to fight and their extreme anti-Americanism.

    Now it´s getting childish.  Insane

    We had objections to your Iraq invasion; Valid ones, as your own post-invasion inspections have confirmed again.

    And instead of reconsidering your own positions, you´re insulting us???

    I´m not sure we even want to be friends with a government acting like a spoiled 5-year-old brat.

    Fortunately, most of your compatriots are capable of acting like grownups. I hope this will find an expression on the governmental level again in time.


    Kellmark: You can argue about civil rights all you want. America has a strong civil rights record, much stronger than Germany's I might add.

    In the past? Sure.
    Right now? I´m not so certain.


    Kellmark: But now we are at war.

    Yes. Voluntarily and unnecessarily. Which eliminates every easy excuse for the suppression of civil rights.


    Kellmark: And even though Europe itself is threatened, you have taken the easy way out, trying to say that there was no connection to 9/11 and talking about "civil rights". What we are facing here is a whole different level of threat than one murderer or one car bomb. When the Islamo-fascists get the nuclear weapons they so greatly desire, and then use them, I am sure that you will refuse to recognize the threat even then.

    You´re so far scared out of your wits by anything remotely reminding you of Islam that you´re ready to chuck out everything that once made your country an admired beacon for human rights and liberty for all.

    What we´re seeing and what you´re proposing is the equivalent of going on the rampage with a big sledge hammer to solve a family dispute, even if it´s a really nasty one.

    There can be no doubt that a clumsy, undifferentiated approach will do nothing to resolve the problem, but instead further escalate it beyond all chances of a resolution (the further deteriorating state of Iraq might serve as a not-so-subtle hint).

    Europe has no illusions about terrorism. We know a lot more about it than America does. But we also know that the success of the fight against terror is not measured in tons of ammo spent in battle as you still seem to believe, but in terrorist cells caught and cut off. It´s not the flashy stuff that works, it´s the effective one.

    You´re craving a simple answer. There just isn´t one to be had!
     
    kellmark
    Posts: 542
    Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2000 12:05 pm

    RE: Did Anything Actually Positive Happen With Bush?

    Mon Nov 08, 2004 12:15 pm

    Klaus.

    This is not a "family" dispute.
    I have been to ground zero where 3,000 people were murdered. And I am determined that it will not happen again.

    And here is another tidbit that came out this week in Australia.

    "JI will try to get nukes, says Downer

    November 08, 2004

    TERRORIST group Jemaah Islamiah would try to get nuclear weapons to use in South-East Asia, Foreign Affairs Minister Alexander Downer said yesterday.

    As the Government moved to relist four outlawed terrorist organisations, Mr Downer said JI would stop at nothing to launch attacks".

    http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,11316761%255E421,00.html
     
    jasepl
    Posts: 3499
    Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2004 3:15 pm

    RE: Did Anything Actually Positive Happen With Bush?

    Mon Nov 08, 2004 1:25 pm

    The 19 hijackers of 9/11 were all muslims.
    The bombers in Bali were all muslims.
    The bombers in Spain were all muslims.
    The killer of Van Gogh was a muslim.

    I saw no methodists or presbyterians doing these things.


    You are right Kellmark. Still, it's not something you use to paint a whole religion with. Plenty of Catholics and Hindus have done plenty of terrible things over the years as well. I won't get into that though. However, this also needs to be considered:

    The 19 hijackers of 9/11 were not Iraqi.
    The bombers in Bali were not Iraqi.
    The bombers in Spain were not Iraqi.
    Not sure about the killer of Van Gogh, but chances are he (she?) wasn't Iraqi.

    Still, many people felt that invading Iraq was perfectly justified, though none of the extreme religious zelots were from there. They were all from Saudi Arabia, Egypt, etc. Yet, none of these countries have been invaded.
     
    Klaus
    Posts: 20594
    Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

    Kellmark

    Mon Nov 08, 2004 8:38 pm

    Kellmark: This is not a "family" dispute. I have been to ground zero where 3,000 people were murdered. And I am determined that it will not happen again.

    Relative to the figurative sledge hammer as a response, yes it is. The muslims on this planet are related to us in the west in many ways. It´s a dysfunctional family, especially now, complete with crazed-out cousins and all, but still family.

    You´re trying to get us all as panicked as you are, for nothing but your broad-band prejudice against all muslims. By your own logic, since most murderers in the USA are nominally christian (probably even protestant), you´d advocate throwing all christians in jail or - better yet - execute them all. See the problem now?  Nuts

    You´re playing into the hands of the terrorists, by

    a) panicking (they are terrorists, remember?)

    b) failing to differentiate between moderates and fanatics

    c) starting exactly what Osama et al want: an open war, easily sold as one against "all of Islam" which would boost popular support for the likes of bin Laden

    You´re plowing and fertilizing their fields!


    Kellmark: JI will try to get nukes, says Downer

    Of course they will try to.
    And you know what? The by far greatest danger of them getting nukes is in Pakistan, which has long been proliferation central - while you were turning away from the Afghanistan / Pakistan center of fanaticism and needlessly messing up Iraq they were happily continuing to turn out new terrorists in the local madrassas - using the Iraq invasion as a perfect recruiting tool - and providing North Korea, Iran and others with nuclear technology on the way.

    Blind obedience and undifferentiated hatred are your own worst enemies!
     
    kellmark
    Posts: 542
    Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2000 12:05 pm

    RE: Did Anything Actually Positive Happen With Bush?

    Tue Nov 09, 2004 12:16 am

    Klaus;

    We will agree to disagree. None of what you say diminishes the danger to all of western society and culture.

    To say that we are "panicking" shows a real lack of understanding of the threat. On the one hand you agree that they want nuclear weapons but then seem to believe, unrealistically, that they can only get these weapons from Pakistan. That is simply not the case. Both Iraq and Libya had active nuclear programs.

    Only after 9/11 did the US respond in force. Even though we had been attacked numerous times. The 1st World Trade Center Bombing, the attack on the Khobar Towers, the attacks on the embassies in Africa and the attack on the USS Cole. We had treated those previous attacks as a "law enforcement" issue and had not gone after the source of the problem, which was terrorist groups backed by rogue states. That is no longer the case.

    With your comparison of christians in the US to muslim terrorists you are completely missing the point. One is a law enforcement issue and people are prosecuted no matter their religion if they commit a crime. And those crimes are not intended to destroy our society and kill thousands, if not millions if they could. The other is a religious war against us by a group of people who want to destroy all of western civilization and replace it with their own intolerant medieval system. You obviously don't seem to see the difference.

    You call me blind and intolerant. I find those who attack us to be so.
    You call us panicked. I call it being realistic to the threat based on the enemy's past actions.

    You say that we do not differentiate between moderates and fanatics. That is simply not true. We believe that the fanatics are as much a threat to the moderate muslims as they are to us. Look at what the Taleban did to their own people. To have countries under horrific dictatorships, whether secular or religious, is a terrible thing. You in Germany should know this most of all. Saddam's Baathist regime in Iraq was as close to an extreme fascist regime as one could find and was responsible for the deaths of millions. In fact Saddam's regime killed more muslims than any other, between his own mass killing of his own people who might have opposed him, about 1/2 million, to the massacre of the Kurds, the Shias and the Iran -Iraq war, not to mention the Kuwaitis. More and more mass graves are being found in Iraq all the time. Good riddance.

    Also, regarding doing what Osama wants, I totally disagree. The last thing he wanted or expected was for the regimes in both Afghanistan and Iraq to fall. He even talked about it on his recent tape as he was repeating Michael Moore's movie talking points. Also, the fact that there have been no attacks on US soil since 9/11 says a lot. He is now weaker than before. That doesn't mean that there won't be more attacks in the future, but at least they know that we will respond strongly. They never expected that we would respond the way we have. They now know that we will.
     
    Klaus
    Posts: 20594
    Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

    Kellmark

    Tue Nov 09, 2004 3:50 am

    Kellmark: We will agree to disagree. None of what you say diminishes the danger to all of western society and culture.

    You´re grossly distorting the kind and the origin of the threat.

    Look, without going into the details yet again, the political camp you´re supporting has until now proven only one thing: First they were complacent before 9-11, then they were wrong in their analysis of Iraq, they were wrong in their tactical planning and as you can see with the global fallout of their hostile approach not just towards the islamic world but also to their (former) allies they made severe errors of judgment on the strategic level all around.

    And still you are trying to tell me that I "don´t get it"?

    Sorry, that might have worked before 2000. But with all evidence pointing exactly the other way, you´ve got nothing to stand on.


    You (the republican half of the split states of america) believe that only military force will work and any attention to other tactics was a waste of time; The rest of the world is saying that a differentiated approach is necessary. Your approach has already failed all the way. Ours, while difficult and long-term, has already yielded results (and yes, the full military attack on the Taleban was a valid part of that differentiated approach).

    When you´re claiming that Europe "does nothing" you simply don´t know what you´re talking about, on every level. Sorry. Inform yourself before making such claims.

    The real world doesn´t suddenly get simple just because you refuse to notice the real complexity. That kind of approach has never worked. And you as somebody who´s dealing with complex technology should know that.
     
    Boeing7E7
    Posts: 5512
    Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2004 9:35 pm

    RE: Did Anything Actually Positive Happen With Bush?

    Tue Nov 09, 2004 5:12 am

    Yes... We quit being Frances drinking buddies. That's been a long time in coming.
     
    SegmentKing
    Posts: 3224
    Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2000 7:16 am

    RE: Did Anything Actually Positive Happen With Bush?

    Tue Nov 09, 2004 5:15 am

    blah. Americans fear the unknown and will forever link a few muslim wackos to the 9/11, which could trickle down and cause fear among anyone who seems different.

    Btw, we didn't give Europe the finger, we gave the UN the middle finger. Big Difference.

    Maybe we should rename this topic to

    "Has the UN ever done anything right or productive?" besides waste taxpayer money and put up a dog-and-pony show so some small country can feel important when compared to the US, Germany, Britain, China, Japan, Russia, etc....
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