levent
Posts: 1589
Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2004 8:11 pm

Being A Soldier, To Die For Your Country?

Wed Nov 10, 2004 6:26 pm

Seeing images on the news showing soldiers fighting, I wonder what goes through their heads at those moments. Well, obviously they´re trying to survive. But what makes someone join the army and go into battle?

I mean, did you live your life, growing up, going to school, experiencing life... to later join the army and be shot dead? Are these soldiers really thinking about defending their country and willing to sacrifice their own life for it?
It seems such a waste.

I personally never wanted to join the armed forces and luckily never had to. Surely there would be people calling me a coward who isn´t prepared to defend his country in times of war. Go ahead, but that´s a fact. I didn´t achieve everything I have now just to give my life for someone else.

If I die in a car crash, plane crash or get shot by some lunatic, bad luck, but that´s out of my hands. And if I want to kill myself, I´d prefer to do that my own way.
 
sebolino
Posts: 3495
Joined: Tue May 29, 2001 11:26 pm

RE: Being A Soldier, To Die For Your Country?

Wed Nov 10, 2004 6:50 pm

I guess there are 2 types of soldiers:

- The one who are really ready to die for their country.

- The one who need a salary (probably the majority).
 
AGC525
Posts: 956
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2004 9:50 am

RE: Being A Soldier, To Die For Your Country?

Wed Nov 10, 2004 6:52 pm

Love for their country and preservation of a way of life. Of course no one wants to die, but like Patton said you win by making the other poor bastard die for his country. I never joined the military, but had plans on it back in high school, today I wish I had joined. If my country needed me, I'd enlist in a heartbeat. You should fight so your children shouldn't have to.

"I didn´t achieve everything I have now just to give my life for someone else."

I'm a firefighter. Of course I don't want to die, but the risk is always there, I relay on my training, education, and the guys with me. I'm sorry you feel that way, that's pretty sad.
American Aviation: From Kitty Hawk to the Moon in 66 years!
 
ConcordeBoy
Posts: 16852
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 8:04 am

RE: Being A Soldier, To Die For Your Country?

Wed Nov 10, 2004 7:21 pm

I'm sorry you feel that way, that's pretty sad

...it's also the overwhelming tendency of human nature  Insane
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
KROC
Posts: 18919
Joined: Mon May 08, 2000 11:19 am

RE: Being A Soldier, To Die For Your Country?

Wed Nov 10, 2004 8:15 pm

Why is this concept hard to believe? There are many people out there that have such a deep love for their country that they have no problem fighting for their country, their way of life, and if they die...then they gave the ultimate sacrifice for what they believe.
 
pacificjourney
Posts: 2659
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2001 9:12 pm

RE: Being A Soldier, To Die For Your Country?

Wed Nov 10, 2004 8:41 pm

Oh the 'concept' of self-sacrifice is easily believable but surely claiming such a thing and actually doing are 2 different things.

Love of country etc, just some phrases of the cereal box. It's a bit like telling people how good you are in bed - those who have to shout about it are usually full of shit.
" Help, help ... I'm being oppressed ... "
 
iakobos
Posts: 3255
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2003 6:22 pm

RE: Being A Soldier, To Die For Your Country?

Wed Nov 10, 2004 8:59 pm

Japanese ancestors KROC ?

Nobody joins the army with the clear understanding that killing and be killed is part of the job. It might be written down somewhere, but the possibility is extremely remote, a lot less in fact that being the victim of an accident.
Embracing a career in uniform is just that: a career.
The job is as safe as many others and the employer is guaranteed never to go bankrupt.

Dying for a flag ? dying for (the others) way of life ? ...even today's boy scouts' training has evolved from this archaic paranoia rethoric.

The world is in need of living heroes in the field of human advancement, not dead heroes in the field of arms. (@AGC...we need also more firefighters)
 
TechRep
Posts: 1877
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2002 6:53 am

RE: Being A Soldier, To Die For Your Country?

Wed Nov 10, 2004 9:25 pm

The degree of Esprit de Corps depends on your branch of service, history and mission. I was in Pararescue for 4.5 months before breaking my legs and was committed to the motto "The things we do so others may live".

At that point in time in my life, 18 years old, I was committed to saying life and aiding the injured. Proportionally other branches had the same motto about killing the enemy and service of nation.

Many kids do in fact join to get a paycheck and I was one of those puke kids. However, after seeing the importance of the job and those who died defending the nation before you, your views quickly change. Many however do join to defend the nation, especially marines and Army. These branches have precipitous history of defense and many join on those preemies. Kids these days do actually care but many discount them as misguided, I firmly disagree!

The “corporate culture” in the military is the defense of the nation. When hiring in you many misconceptions but after a short period of time the reality of mission is crystal clear. I was not a Marine, but damn it, these guys have my salute. Semper Fidelis means something to these guys, never surrender, never leave your dead buddy behind, and never let the odds sway you. Tell a Marine you’re just in for the money! Please, and check back with me.

Marines signify loyalty and once a Marine always a Marine. Marines out for 50 years will still celebrate Marine Corp birthday. I still get goose bumps when I see vintage military aircraft and tear up during the national anthem. If you don’t understand such things, you really should do a gut check. You’re alive today because the blood of others was spilt defended your freedom. If you do not respect such labors than you’re a heartless coward.

Guess what? Today is Marine Corp Birthday!!
 
KROC
Posts: 18919
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RE: Being A Soldier, To Die For Your Country?

Wed Nov 10, 2004 9:52 pm

Japanese ancestors KROC ?

Nope

Nobody joins the army with the clear understanding that killing and be killed is part of the job. It might be written down somewhere, but the possibility is extremely remote, a lot less in fact that being the victim of an accident.
Embracing a career in uniform is just that: a career. The job is as safe as many others and the employer is guaranteed never to go bankrupt.


Sorry, but thats a load of crap. When each and every person signs up for the military, they know that can be sent anywhere at anytime and that they could possibly die in service for their country. And yes, some people join for a "career" but others join for a career in service to their country.

Dying for a flag ? dying for (the others) way of life ? ...even today's boy scouts' training has evolved from this archaic paranoia rethoric.

Paranoia rethoric? For the hundreds of thouands that have died so I personally can enjoythe life I do...they did not fight and or die for paranoia rethoric.

The world is in need of living heroes in the field of human advancement, not dead heroes in the field of arms. (@AGC...we need also more firefighters)

The world is in need of more heros period.

The degree of Esprit de Corps depends on your branch of service, history and mission. I was in Pararescue for 4.5 months before breaking my legs and was committed to the motto "The things we do so others may live".

Great point, and to take it further, I still apply the Air Force Core Values I learned while serving to my every day actions. Commitment to Excellence, Integrity, and Service Before Self.

Many kids do in fact join to get a paycheck and I was one of those puke kids. However, after seeing the importance of the job and those who died defending the nation before you, your views quickly change. Many however do join to defend the nation, especially marines and Army. These branches have precipitous history of defense and many join on those preemies. Kids these days do actually care but many discount them as misguided, I firmly disagree!

I agree with this. When I joined, I was 19 and married. I was looking for someplace to start my life, and the military provided that. Thing is, I wasn't even out of Basic when I already felt the real reason I joined was to serve my country in what ever way they asked me. Field exersices, deployments across the globe, a tour in Korea it didn't matter. But like Rep said, you just don't join the Marines, or even the Army looking for a "career" in infantry. They join because they love their country and want to serve and defend it. And if anyone has gone through Basic Training or Boot Camp, it is made painfully evident of what your ultiamte sacrifice can be.

Marines signify loyalty and once a Marine always a Marine. Marines out for 50 years will still celebrate Marine Corp birthday. I still get goose bumps when I see vintage military aircraft and tear up during the national anthem. If you don’t understand such things, you really should do a gut check. You’re alive today because the blood of others was spilt defended your freedom. If you do not respect such labors than you’re a heartless coward.

Again, more great points. I tear up hearing the National Anthem as well. Whether on T.V., in a stadium, no matter. Hell, when I stand, my feet are together at a 45 degree angle. I celebrate the Air Force Birthday, and as a member of the VFW, I'll be celebrating Veterans Day (tomorrow) as well. And again the gut check is a perfect description...thing is, not many people have the ability to do that or understand that, and thats sad.


 
dl021
Posts: 10836
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 12:04 pm

RE: Being A Soldier, To Die For Your Country?

Wed Nov 10, 2004 10:37 pm

Perhaps Levent has not thought this completely through, and does not understand that freedom is not only won most often through force of arms, but maintained by the same. He may also be seeing through the skewed vision of a Europacifist who resents conscription. There are some things worth the hardship and risk, and even the death one might face as a soldier or serviceman.

No soldier is very interested in dying, but the ones in the volunteer services around the world typically joined not for the paycheck, which is usually pretty minimal, but in order to do their part to defend their values and freedoms. They are willing to take the risk, make the sacrifices and even die for what they believe in and their friends.

I can't say why every other soldier volunteered, but I did it knowing about the risks and probabilities and went in order to do my part in defending our freedom. Most of my friends while in were there for the same fundamental reasons. Service is typically easier for the young because we spend less time taking counsel of our fears, but to say that one cannot see themselves serving for fear of death and to justify ones inaction by saying that the ones who are serving and sacrificing are wasting their efforts and lives is less than honorable. Why doesn't he ask some volunteer soldiers who are currently serving whether their service is worth the risk.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
CaptOveur
Posts: 6064
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RE: Being A Soldier, To Die For Your Country?

Wed Nov 10, 2004 11:24 pm

To Quote Patton:

"No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country."
Things were better when it was two guys in a dorm room.
 
qr332
Posts: 2592
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 11:16 pm

RE: Being A Soldier, To Die For Your Country?

Wed Nov 10, 2004 11:37 pm

Why would it be not possible to die for your country? Many people are willing to give up their life for their country, me included.
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
dl021
Posts: 10836
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 12:04 pm

RE: Being A Soldier, To Die For Your Country?

Wed Nov 10, 2004 11:45 pm

There is a difference between being willing to die for your country and actually committing suicide for your country as a matter of first resort.

Most real soldiers will express this view similarly.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
levent
Posts: 1589
Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2004 8:11 pm

RE: Being A Soldier, To Die For Your Country?

Thu Nov 11, 2004 2:37 am

Thanks for all your responses. Please don´t understand wrong, I do have deep respect for the ones who go into battle and fight for a cause. And I do know that the soldiers who died during wars gave their lives for the freedom of others.

It´s difficult to explain my thoughts, but the reason I was asking this is more to know what goes on in the heads of soldiers who go into battle, knowing that there is a chance that they will be killed.

Ok maybe I´m referring more to life and death instead of the line of duty. As said here before, also firefighters, police officers etc. can be killed. But they are doing the job to save and serve people, respectively.
It´s just the thought of being in a battle and losing your life because of a bullet, fired at you by purpose.

Maybe my problem is that, having lived in seven different countries, I don´t have any special feeling or bond with a certain nation.
 
commander_rabb
Posts: 723
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 6:59 am

RE: Being A Soldier, To Die For Your Country?

Thu Nov 11, 2004 2:57 am

It seems such a waste.


Thankfully for most of us, there were those who paid the ultimate sacrifice that gives our lives, our freedoms and our amazing world we have today.

But what makes someone join the army and go into battle?

How about fighting for what you believe in?

What’s with these questions?!?
 
saslover
Posts: 338
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2004 2:04 am

RE: Being A Soldier, To Die For Your Country?

Thu Nov 11, 2004 3:08 am

Well i would never be a soldier and kill people just because a General commands you too do it.
Pilot how soon can you land this plane. I can't tell. Yes you can tell me I am a doctor
 
miamiair
Posts: 4249
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2004 9:42 pm

RE: Being A Soldier, To Die For Your Country?

Thu Nov 11, 2004 3:12 am

People are still enlisting, knowing there's a war on...doesn't that tell you something? The reasoning in the start of this post is exactly why Spain dropped their trousers after the 3/11 blasts and took it up the wazoo. IMO, if something would have happened here prior to the elections, all they would have accomplished is to stick their talleywhackers in a beehive. I joined the army right out of high school, was in the infantry and you know what, it changes you. It instills certain values in you that I apply to this very day. My best friends are from the other branches (no coasties, their boats have wheels on the bottoms) and sure we rag on the other branches, but it will always come down to this...we love our country, and we wore the uniform, and if we had to bleed while we were in, so be it. Freedom isn't free. Its been paid for in blood everywhere around the world.
Molon Labe - Proud member of SMASH
 
dl021
Posts: 10836
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 12:04 pm

RE: Being A Soldier, To Die For Your Country?

Thu Nov 11, 2004 3:13 am

saslover...You would if you felt threatened. Your limited exposure to the world means you have not yet left the safe and comfortable environment provided to you by soldiers who fought for your freedom.

levent...Think about the people who sacrificed to provide you with the opportunity to live your life being able to freely travel and live. It is not just about nationalism...its freedom.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
JeffM
Posts: 7569
Joined: Sat May 07, 2005 3:32 am

RE: Being A Soldier, To Die For Your Country?

Thu Nov 11, 2004 3:13 am

"Well i would never be a soldier and kill people just because a General commands you too do it."

You kill the guy trying to kill you.....does that make it easier for you? Or you can lay dead based on your stubborn ignorance to follow the order.
 
miamiair
Posts: 4249
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2004 9:42 pm

RE: Being A Soldier, To Die For Your Country?

Thu Nov 11, 2004 3:22 am

"It is the soldier, not the reporter,
Who has given us freedom of the press.

"It is the soldier, not the poet,
Who has given us freedom of speech.

"It is the soldier, not the campus organizer,
Who has given us the freedom to demonstrate.

"It is the soldier, who salutes the flag,
Who serves beneath the flag,
And whose coffin is draped by the flag,
Who allows the protester to burn the flag."

-- Father Dennis Edward O'Brian, USMC
(10 November 1775, a Corps of Marines was created by a resolution of Continental Congress -- Semper Fi!)

Excerpted from the Fedarlist Patriot, 10 NOV 04
Molon Labe - Proud member of SMASH
 
PPGMD
Posts: 2398
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RE: Being A Soldier, To Die For Your Country?

Thu Nov 11, 2004 3:28 am

I think that there is also a misconception about death. Whether you join the military or not, you are going to die when the time comes for you to die, you will die.

That's my belief and the belief of many of the people that I know. You should still take reasonable precautions to protect your life, but there is nothing you can do to prevent your death.
At worst, you screw up and die.
 
levent
Posts: 1589
Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2004 8:11 pm

RE: Being A Soldier, To Die For Your Country?

Thu Nov 11, 2004 3:41 am

But there is a big difference in enlisting and going to war and being killed, or dying in a plane crash. With the latter I believe it´s meant to be, but not with the first. Just my opinion.
 
MD-90
Posts: 7835
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2000 12:45 pm

RE: Being A Soldier, To Die For Your Country?

Thu Nov 11, 2004 3:45 am

I wouldn't be willing to die for Bush in his unconstitutional war.

The only just wars in American history have been the American Revolution and the War to Prevent Southern Independence.
 
KROC
Posts: 18919
Joined: Mon May 08, 2000 11:19 am

RE: Being A Soldier, To Die For Your Country?

Thu Nov 11, 2004 3:59 am

You mean to tell me World War I or II were not just MD-90?  Insane
 
miamiair
Posts: 4249
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2004 9:42 pm

RE: Being A Soldier, To Die For Your Country?

Thu Nov 11, 2004 4:01 am

MD90:

You have blown an N1 disk. It works the other way around, the Commander in Chief issues the orders, and as crap rolls down hill, you get to do the dirty deed. You don't get to pick your CO. Then again you wouldn't know anything about the oath. Forget it, its like trying to teach a pig to sing...You would be cannon fodder.
Molon Labe - Proud member of SMASH
 
RT514
Posts: 399
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RE: Being A Soldier, To Die For Your Country?

Thu Nov 11, 2004 4:14 am

There are many people out there that have such a deep love for their country that they have no problem fighting for their country, their way of life, and if they die...then they gave the ultimate sacrifice for what they believe.

True, but a romanticized oversimplification, in my opinion. So much death in the Middle East, terrorists on suicide missions... all giving the "ultimate sacrifice" for what they believe. It's all very sad, really.
 
dl021
Posts: 10836
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 12:04 pm

RE: Being A Soldier, To Die For Your Country?

Thu Nov 11, 2004 7:16 am

md90 is speaking from a position of ignorance, and since he has some weird idea that the Civil War was a just constitutional act on the part of the southern states he has kind of lost any credibility in this particular arena.

No one has asked you to serve, and if a draft came up I would encourage you to file for conscientious objector status and see if that flies with your draft board.

WWI and WWII were both declared wars with the backing of Congress and constitutionally legal. The conflicts in Korea, Vietnam, and others all had resolutions passed in congress making them legal conflicts.

I am personally glad that the time I spent in service to my country enabled this pinhead, and others, to make any statements he wants to make without thinking it all the way through, because that is proof that we really do have freedom.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
pacificjourney
Posts: 2659
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2001 9:12 pm

RE: Being A Soldier, To Die For Your Country?

Thu Nov 11, 2004 8:06 am

You guys all joined up because you couldn't get another job and at the time it sounded like fun (... and they paid your otherwise unemployable hides).

Please stop with all this crap about self-sacrifice, who do you think you are fooling ? There is nothing like this thread starter to bring out all the self congratualting pap we've seen so far. How predictable.
" Help, help ... I'm being oppressed ... "
 
PPGMD
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RE: Being A Soldier, To Die For Your Country?

Thu Nov 11, 2004 8:20 am

You guys all joined up because you couldn't get another job and at the time it sounded like fun (... and they paid your otherwise unemployable hides).

Question of the day, would you say that to the face of a current or former enlisted man? How about officers or warrant officers, who are college educated when they join up?

My guess is that you wouldn't. Even though it's unlikely that they would hit you, because they have more respect for your hide and the laws of the country than most of the people that would spit on them.
At worst, you screw up and die.
 
L-188
Posts: 29870
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Being A Soldier, To Die For Your Country?

Thu Nov 11, 2004 8:39 am

No poor dumb bastard ever won a war by dying for their country.

They won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for theirs.




I suppose you could subsitute religion for contry in that comment too.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
AGC525
Posts: 956
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2004 9:50 am

RE: Being A Soldier, To Die For Your Country?

Thu Nov 11, 2004 8:54 am

MD90-

"I wouldn't be willing to die for Bush in his unconstitutional war.

The only just wars in American history have been the American Revolution and the War to Prevent Southern Independence."

But you would for Clinton, Ford or Carter, etc...?

You have that wrong, it was the war of Northern Agression or the war FOR Southern Independence.  Smile
American Aviation: From Kitty Hawk to the Moon in 66 years!
 
Superfly
Posts: 37735
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RE: Being A Soldier, To Die For Your Country?

Thu Nov 11, 2004 9:04 am

AGC525:
But you would for Clinton, Ford or Carter, etc...?


Nah he would only fight and die for Stonewall Jackson, Robert E. Lee and John C. Breckenridge.
Bring back the Concorde
 
AGC525
Posts: 956
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2004 9:50 am

RE: Being A Soldier, To Die For Your Country?

Thu Nov 11, 2004 9:14 am

Why not, they were better commanders
American Aviation: From Kitty Hawk to the Moon in 66 years!
 
pacificjourney
Posts: 2659
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2001 9:12 pm

RE: Being A Soldier, To Die For Your Country?

Thu Nov 11, 2004 11:32 am

PPGMD having been in the military myself absolutely I have said it and most of the honest ones would probably acknowledge the truth and then get the drinks in. BTW what is the ratio of degree holders joining compared to otherwise unemployable HS grads ? About 90 to 1 against I'd say.

The keyboard heroes on here are just talking so much crap it's painful. Long story short, they get a job, they get trained, they get paid, they get a pension, they even get re-training ... yet somehow they want public adoration because they are somehow sacrificing themselves.

The vast majority of people in the military are in it for the pay and career. All this self scacrifice stuff is complete bullshit they add on later to make themselves feel good. Hope it works for them cause the rest of us are just laughing at it.

" Help, help ... I'm being oppressed ... "
 
dl021
Posts: 10836
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 12:04 pm

RE: Being A Soldier, To Die For Your Country?

Thu Nov 11, 2004 11:55 am

pacificjourney has amazingly developed the ability to make noises emanate from his 4th point of contact. You must have served with the retard squad back when they allowed subpar intelligence individuals in the military to perform menial labor tasks. These days an HS diploma or equivelant is required for the services, and a lerger proportion than ever has college when they enter. The requirements for progress through the ranks include classroom performance that eliminates the possibility of allowing the kind of people this assmonkey has described.

If you joined for the pay you are an idiot...the payscales are subpar and the food is not from la Boule d'Or, and by the end of your first tour you have been trained and developed to the point that there is a line of prospective employers trying to hire honorably discharged veterans who have demonstrated the ability to learn, get up early, work hard, use initiative and lead. If you did not leave the military with a good background and move into a desirable job then you must have been a screw up with no initiative or other mentioned ability.

The rest of us will be happy to meet you someplace to discuss this if you desire.

Have a nice day.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
pacificjourney
Posts: 2659
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2001 9:12 pm

RE: Being A Soldier, To Die For Your Country?

Thu Nov 11, 2004 12:52 pm

Wow a HS diploma or even ... gasp ... it's equivalent. Colour me impressed ! Some college, who doesn't have 'some college'.

You are right about the pay of course but for some 18 year old who is equipped with only a HS dip. (or equivalent) it sure beats the $5.50 an hour he'll be lucky to get at the Piggly Wiggly.

Shall we go into detail about the level of 'classroom performance' required in the military. Here's a big instruction manual - do it like this, exactly like this - the end ! Promotion in the first 8 years being as near to automatic as it gets BTW.

I think military people are some of lifes losers looking for self-affirmation, you (being one them) think they are the finest humanity produces. Where exactly do you and your boyfriends want to talk further (as if it will happen ... ) and what would be the point ?
" Help, help ... I'm being oppressed ... "
 
MD-90
Posts: 7835
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2000 12:45 pm

RE: Being A Soldier, To Die For Your Country?

Thu Nov 11, 2004 2:48 pm

The conflicts in Korea, Vietnam, and others all had resolutions passed in congress making them legal conflicts.

But no formal Congressional declarations of war, as required by the Constitution.



But you would for Clinton, Ford or Carter, etc...?

If they were President and the US was invaded, yes. But a preemptory invasion of a nation that poses no threat to us; in violation of hundreds of years of legal international precedence (particularly prior to 1914 and the League of Nations); when Congress has not made a formal declaration of war; and when invading that country results in much less security for the United States; no, I don't support that war and if I had a choice, right now, at the age of 20, no, I would not serve in "Bush's" military.

Just because you're an employee of the state (policeman, firefighter, soldier), doesn't automatically make you a hero.



AGC, it wasn't really a war for Southern independence. The sovereign states had a right to leave the union, freely as they entered into it. Yes, Confederate forces did fire the first shot, but it was in response to Lincoln's pre-war maneuverings. They weren't stupid. They didn't want a war and didn't mean to fight one until Lincoln pressed the issue.



KROC, this link is for you.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/rothbard/rothbard20.html



I can't reprint this in it's entirety, because it's copyrighted, but if you want to bash me, read this first.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/reese/reese67.html
 
commander_rabb
Posts: 723
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 6:59 am

RE: Being A Soldier, To Die For Your Country?

Thu Nov 11, 2004 3:38 pm

You know P J you have some real issues don't you?

You just HATE the fact that there are some who join the military because they feel a certain pride in serving and thus the military serves them back with some great skills.

You just hate that people have a patriotic vein in them. Why is that? What is it with you? What is the deep seeded issue grinding deep inside your gut?

Do tell us. Or do you even know yourself? I would stack up any of the enlisted and officer personnel I have worked with up against the likes of you any day.

Wow maybe that's it? Inferiority complex? Is that what you have P J?

I think military people are some of lifes losers looking for self-affirmation

It sure beats teaching cow re-production rates and using fertilizer to it's greatest advantage.

LOL



Like I said...you got issues pal!
 
MD-90
Posts: 7835
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2000 12:45 pm

RE: Being A Soldier, To Die For Your Country?

Thu Nov 11, 2004 4:02 pm

It sure beats teaching cow re-production rates and using fertilizer to it's greatest advantage.

Hey, I've friends who take Animal and Dairy Science as the undergraduate degree before going into the vet school. They really do learn about things like that. Imagine the reproduction lab--a memorable experiene, for sure. Live cows and long gloves.
 
BN747
Posts: 5344
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 5:48 am

RE: Being A Soldier, To Die For Your Country?

Thu Nov 11, 2004 6:34 pm

Nobody joins the army with the clear understanding that killing and be killed is part of the job. It might be written down somewhere, but the possibility is extremely remote, a lot less in fact that being the victim of an accident.
Embracing a career in uniform is just that: a career. The job is as safe as many others and the employer is guaranteed never to go bankrupt.


I'm sorry KROC.. Lakobos is spot on with this statement! No one and I mean no one joins with that intent... if someone remotely has that kind of 'death wish...' he's the one that's gonna fail the psych eval. If you've spent anytime among basic training recruits you discover quite a bit about your future comrade-in-arms. Most are...

1) poor kids from inner-city and rural America seeking a ticket out that gaurentees a pay check a few other bennies (benefits), rent,meals all paid for.

2) kids who grew around military bases and surroundings and see very clearly what type of life it is and how it all works.

3) kids catching a steady dosage of ass kickings wanting to become a marine to return the favor..

4) kids who are confused (and this is every kid in the 18-21 age bracket) and seek some sort of direction or guidance. They've seen a friend,associate or relative who was going nowhere fast or headed for a life of crime..go into the service.. and return as a most learned, upstanding individual-- a 1st hand eyewitness of a doomed and condemned person complete a 180 degree personality conversion... now someone who's focused, has direction and a sense of mission, ambition and resolute confidence.

5) college kids who crunch the 'after college' job numbers,indicators and see that their C-average isn't going get them that sweet VP Marketing position at Johnson & Johnson. They crunch more numbers and see that they can enter the military, receive a huge bonus, specialized training (dentistry to a flight career) plus you leap into the upper echelon of the service and immediately have a huge sub-class of soldiers below you...instant esteem boost!

Sense of duty and all that patriotic bullshit comes when you're at a cocktail party and are asked why are you 'in'? Or in front of a news camera. Or in trouble before your CO. Every 18 year today already knows the score. They know life isn't fair, every advantage counts in trying to suceed, they know that information is knowledge and knowledge is power and they know exactly how they measure up and where they fall short.

So back in basic when you're not doing PT, acclimation to military life and you are shining boots, cleaning the latrine with your squad-mates.. you find out just who's who and what walk in life they emerge from. Me personally, I meet two kids who should have been in Harvard easy.. but had joined to piss off their parents.. I was completely floored at that line of reasoning. I believe one of them (his dad was a politician) eventually was able to get out earlier than his commitment because he had -had enough-- and concluded military life was not for him. Another brilliant kid was brilliant as hell sent to Vandenberg only later to be diagnosed as schitzophrenic and later discharged.

Sure, we all went in and knew that there's a remote chance that war could break out and you called upon and you'd have to step up and do your part. But no one signs up with visions of medals and dodging bullets or catching bullets 'for country and glory'.. that is mountain of horseshit and so is anyone telling you otherwise.

They pay isn't that great? Tell that to a non-college bound kid looking at making $7.50 an hour working at McDonalds or American Airlines emptying lavatory tanks and neither offering real job security.

But what most don't realize is that the military comes with a hitch.. they own your ass from day one (and they will.. I repeat WILL let you know about it, threats and intimidation are frequent and routine)... and a lot of people wash out. I saw tough-ass gang members get tossed left and right! You can get tossed for a multitude of reasons, even personal conflicts (aka someone just doesn't like you can easily sink your ship). My CO of my last two years was after me like Custer after Sitting Bull.. for everything from refusing to cut my hair to sneaking girls into barracks (back when it wasn't permitted).

In peace time.. it's a cake walk, in times like these... well.. it's tough, tensions are high, and well... if you get the chance.. see 'Soldiers Pay' on IFC playing right now... you get see the soldiers/officers who served in Iraq, some involved in looting some of Saddams cash, some who posed with a drawn 'christian cross' marked on a wall with words "My God is better than your God"... obviously, you won't see these soldiers on CNN, Fox News or anywhere else. War brings bad shit.. no matter what war it was or what war the future brings.


BN747


"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
levent
Posts: 1589
Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2004 8:11 pm

RE: Being A Soldier, To Die For Your Country?

Thu Nov 11, 2004 6:54 pm

Another striking effect of war: soldiers killing the enemy, full of hatred and trying to survive, and yet misusing their power to rape the enemy´s wives and daughters. I wonder whether that has to do with humiliation, or simply need for sex. How ironical if a child is born out of this act.
 
BN747
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Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 5:48 am

RE: Being A Soldier, To Die For Your Country?

Thu Nov 11, 2004 6:58 pm

I wonder whether that has to do with humiliation...

The very act of War ignites a vicious cycle of humiliation... and there is no end.


BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
tt737fo
Posts: 468
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2001 2:13 am

RE: Being A Soldier, To Die For Your Country?

Thu Nov 11, 2004 8:16 pm

First of all, I will wish all fellow Marines here a most happy 229th! A toast to all those who serve and prayers to those in Iraq--especially in Falluja right now.

Are there some who truly take the Oath of Office with visions of honor, valor, and glory on the battlefield? Absolutely. If not, schools like VMI, the Academies, and Citadel would be empty. Many of these individuals have the warrior ethos; they tend to be mult-generationed military. Some go on to be fine professional warriors, others do not.

On the other end of the spectrum are the young, misguided baggers of the Piggly Wigglies. Looking for direction in life...looking for a steady check. True. Dying gloriously on the battlefield is far from their minds.

BN747 makes some valid points, and he has served and done his time. I respect him for that.

PacificJourney also points some issues out...winnow through one or two, and they too are valid.

However, BN747 and PacificJourney clearly speak from the viewpoint of those who have never been shot at in anger.

Make no mistake about it, the young Marine under fire will know how to react. The twenty-year old, brand-new squad leader, who saved the TACP's life in the First Gulf War, it so happened, was trying to do everything he could to get ahead and feed his family back home in El Paso, including his parents. Life was a dead-end for him. That "loser" seeking self affirmation through the Marine Corps earned a Bronze Star (the Corps does not give out medals like candy) and is now an FBI agent in the southwest.

PacificJourney and BN747....have you ever heard of Brian Chontosh? Probably not. Maybe because he was one of those college graduates with a C average that couldn't cut it in corporate America. He wanted to jump into easy street and have a sub-class of Marines below him for ego gratification. Yeah, my ass.

Brian Chontosh is just your typical kid out of Churchville. A Rochester Institute of Technology Graduate.

Brian Chontosh is a Captain of Marines.

It was over a year ago on the march into Baghdad. Brian Chontosh was a platoon leader rolling up Highway 1 in a HMMWV.

All hell broke loose when Lt Chotosh's platoon was ambushed.

His young Marines were being cut to ribbons. Mortars, machine guns, rocket propelled grenades. And the kid out of Churchville was in charge. It was do or die and it was up to him.

So he moved to the side of his column, looking for a way to lead his men to safety. As he tried to poke a hole through the Iraqi line his humvee came under direct enemy machine gun fire.

It was fish in a barrel and the Marines were the fish.

And Brian Chontosh gave the order to attack. He told his driver to floor the humvee directly at the machine gun emplacement that was firing at them. And he had the guy on top with the .50 cal unload on them.

Within moments there were Iraqis slumped across the machine gun and Chontosh was still advancing, ordering his driver now to take the humvee directly into the Iraqi trench that was attacking his Marines. Over into the battlement the humvee went and out the door Brian Chontosh bailed, carrying an M16 and a Beretta and 228 years of Marine Corps pride.

And he ran down the trench.

With its mortars and riflemen, machineguns and grenadiers.

And he killed them all.

He fought with the M16 until it was out of ammo. Then he fought with the Beretta until it was out of ammo. Then he picked up a dead man's AK47 and fought with that until it was out of ammo. Then he picked up another dead man's AK47 and fought with that until it was out of ammo.

At one point he even fired a discarded Iraqi RPG into an enemy cluster, sending attackers flying with its grenade explosion.

When he was done Brian Chontosh had cleared 200 yards of entrenched Iraqis from his platoon's flank. He had killed more than 20 and wounded at least as many more.

But that's probably not how he would tell it.

He would probably merely say that his Marines were in trouble, and he got them out of trouble. Hoo-ah, and drive on.

"By his outstanding display of decisive leadership, unlimited courage in the face of heavy enemy fire, and utmost devotion to duty, 1st Lt. Chontosh reflected great credit upon himself and upheld the highest traditions of the Marine Corps and the United States Naval Service."

That's what the citation says. Unfortunately people like PacificJourney and BN will never, ever understand it. It's horse-crap to them.

 
KROC
Posts: 18919
Joined: Mon May 08, 2000 11:19 am

RE: Being A Soldier, To Die For Your Country?

Thu Nov 11, 2004 8:46 pm

I'm sorry KROC.. Lakobos is spot on with this statement! No one and I mean no one joins with that intent... if someone remotely has that kind of 'death wish...' he's the one that's gonna fail the psych eval. If you've spent anytime among basic training recruits you discover quite a bit about your future comrade-in-arms. Most are...

Show me where I said people join to die. People will join with the sole intent to serve their country and IF they die, that are okay with that. Pat Tillman joined the Army not to die, but to serve his country and protect his way of life. He knew very well he could be killed, and he was. He was okay with that. Big difference....then again I'm willing to bet someone like you who doesn't understand the concept of pride in this sense will never understand.

Oh, and this. I have to say that Dl021 just spread Pacificjourneys chicklets all over the place.  Big grin

 
miamiair
Posts: 4249
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2004 9:42 pm

RE: Being A Soldier, To Die For Your Country?

Thu Nov 11, 2004 10:27 pm

KROC:

Good point bringing up Pat Tillman and his brother; another professional sports figure giving up their lucrative professions to enlist in what they see as their duty. Ranger training alone is as hard as woodpecker lips; lots of ways to get injured or killed alone. To go on combat ops, it has to be somewhere in your mind that your number may come up, yet you do what you have to do.

To all my brothers and sisters who wear/wore the uniform, thanks.

To all those whiners; kiss my rump in the Macy's window!
Molon Labe - Proud member of SMASH
 
MD-90
Posts: 7835
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2000 12:45 pm

RE: Being A Soldier, To Die For Your Country?

Thu Nov 11, 2004 11:51 pm

Anyone here ever read James Joyce's From Here to Eternity? I recently read it myself. It's about the Schofield Barracks in Hawaii just prior to and after 1941. It was a very interesting read. So was Haldeman's The Forever War.


Here's an article for the jarheads on this forum:
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig5/gammar2.html

[Edited 2004-11-11 16:09:23]
 
United4everDEN
Posts: 737
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2004 12:36 pm

RE: Being A Soldier, To Die For Your Country?

Fri Nov 12, 2004 12:26 am

I have a job, plan on continuing my education, and all that good stuff, but I would be willing to put it all on hold to go serve in the army if necessary. (Necessary meaning if a war was going on.)
 
levent
Posts: 1589
Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2004 8:11 pm

RE: Being A Soldier, To Die For Your Country?

Fri Nov 12, 2004 1:00 am

Newsflash: There is a war going on. Your President says it.
 
KROC
Posts: 18919
Joined: Mon May 08, 2000 11:19 am

RE: Being A Soldier, To Die For Your Country?

Fri Nov 12, 2004 1:06 am

Newsflash - He isn't asking for anyone not in the military to fight it yet.
 
MD-90
Posts: 7835
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2000 12:45 pm

RE: Being A Soldier, To Die For Your Country?

Fri Nov 12, 2004 2:24 am

Necessary meaning that the United States has been invaded.

Necessary for the expansion of the American Empire? No thanks.

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