latinaviation
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Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2003 11:25 pm

As Venezuela Tilts Left, A Rum Mogul Reaches Out

Wed Nov 10, 2004 10:55 pm

Given the controversy of Chavez's public policy, this article describes the careful balance of private enterprise not only surviving but thriving under Chavez's rule. A good article and WSJ.com is free all week.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: As Venezuela Tilts Left, A Rum Mogul Reaches Out

Thu Nov 11, 2004 1:09 am

"Since Mr. Chavez, 50, took power in 1999...costing Venezuela some 2.5 million jobs...extreme poverty has nearly doubled, to 40% of the population, according to a study by the Andres Bello Catholic University in Caracas."

There will always be opportunists who can take advantage of a situation but Chavez is still probably the worst thing to ever hit Venezuela.

E pur si muove -Galileo
 
JUANR
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RE: As Venezuela Tilts Left, A Rum Mogul Reaches Out

Thu Nov 11, 2004 7:07 am

There will always be opportunists who can take advantage of a situation but Chavez is still probably the worst thing to ever hit Venezuela.

Maverick: Why do you care about it?, since Chavez have agreed to keep selling his petroleum to your country I stopped listening for complaints on him from the power of the north. Please include the US Government on your list.

Of course, if he had not agreed, he would be out of desk, and our neighbours would be ruled by a puppet government put by the USA, Libya, Iraq and some other countries come to my mind.

Juan
SKBO
Bogotá: 2600 Metros Más Cerca De Las Estrellas; Vamos por los XVII Juegos Nacionales!!!!!!!!!
 
L.1011
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RE: As Venezuela Tilts Left, A Rum Mogul Reaches Out

Thu Nov 11, 2004 7:17 am

Of course, if he had not agreed, he would be out of desk, and our neighbours would be ruled by a puppet government put by the USA, Libya, Iraq and some other countries come to my mind.

Yeah, we're REALLY buddy buddy with Libya.
 
dl021
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RE: As Venezuela Tilts Left, A Rum Mogul Reaches Out

Thu Nov 11, 2004 7:20 am

The reason I have concerns about Chavez is that he represents a threat to Colombia, and has allowed CUba to have a large role in assisting him develop some of his defence and internal security policies. He has access to Venezuelas wealth, and has done nothing but bring further instability to a region that had been making economic progress, and no one wants regression in this region.

Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
JUANR
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RE: As Venezuela Tilts Left, A Rum Mogul Reaches Out

Thu Nov 11, 2004 7:34 am

Yeah, we're REALLY buddy buddy with Libya.

Where did I write that US were buddies with Libya? The point is that USA tolerates any kind of government that keeps the oil supply, no matter how democratic or not it is. Gadaffi is still there because he agreed to keep the oil supply.

The reason I have concerns about Chavez is that he represents a threat to Colombia, and has allowed CUba to have a large role in assisting him develop some of his defence and internal security policies. He has access to Venezuelas wealth, and has done nothing but bring further instability to a region that had been making economic progress, and no one wants regression in this region.

I must agree with your first statement but not with the last: Chavez is a threat to Colombia, no doubt, unofficially he supports FARC and you know what that means. However, he may be a friend of Fidel Castro but that is not important anymore, after 1991 everybody knows that Fidel Castro is a threat for nobody. As you have seen, leftist governments have gain power in most countries in Latin America on free elections: Brazil, Venezuela, Argentina, Uruguay, Chile, Peru, Panama...the only clearly rightist country is Colombia, but even here, on last year local elections, leftist took the power on the most importants cities of the country, including the Capital City. So they've learnt that the Castro speech is useless and are not using it as a role model.

Juan
SKBO
Bogotá: 2600 Metros Más Cerca De Las Estrellas; Vamos por los XVII Juegos Nacionales!!!!!!!!!
 
NUAir
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RE: As Venezuela Tilts Left, A Rum Mogul Reaches Out

Thu Nov 11, 2004 7:46 am

Juanr,

I could be wrong but I don't think Maverick is suggesting that the US have anything to do with putting into place a puppet government.

The true problem is that Chavez is able to strive thanks to very very high oil prices which is enabling him to start up tons of social programs and in theory help the poor who in turn are his largest supporters. Some of these programs include medical and educational access for all. I think these are great things for Venezuela but as soon as oil prices drop (assuming they do) he will have a crisis on his hands with a gov't that can no longer afford to pay for all of these capital intensive programs. Once this happens the people are going to put the blame on Chavez which will throw the country into further political uncertainty and lose even more foreign investment and jobs.

Many of the Venezuelans I know here in the US are very anti-chavez and would love to see the US kick Chavez out but he has very strong support in Venezuela and according to the last vote (montiored by many international agencies) Chavez is Venezuelas elected president and that needs to be recognized for better or for worse by everyone including Bush and the US.

If he is really that bad let the voters of Venezuela throw him out during the next election.
"How Many Assholes we got on this ship?" - Lord Helmet
 
WiLdmanVzla
Posts: 590
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RE: As Venezuela Tilts Left, A Rum Mogul Reaches Out

Thu Nov 11, 2004 10:08 am

Yeah, sure... we can wait some years to throw out Chavez... until that, let's see how Chavez keep his total and absolute control over all public powers in Venezuela... for example the electoral power, as he showed in the last months.

Sometimes you must ask venezuelans (in both sides of confrontation for sure) the real deal about the venezuelan trouble... it's like trying to understand why Bush won the elections thinking as a non - american (almost for sure supporting Kerry)... only the americans can understand the real meaning of the Bush' victory for their country.

Sure... I'm totally against Chavez, but I also can understand why Chavez is highly supported by a lot of people in Venezuela... the big deal is about the opposition: hating Chavez the way they do is the best way to show their unconscious support... something really strange, isn't it?.

*******
 
L.1011
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RE: As Venezuela Tilts Left, A Rum Mogul Reaches Out

Fri Nov 12, 2004 4:09 am

Where did I write that US were buddies with Libya? The point is that USA tolerates any kind of government that keeps the oil supply, no matter how democratic or not it is. Gadaffi is still there because he agreed to keep the oil supply.

Last time I checked Iraq was still exporting oil before we invaded. Last time I checked Bosnia didn't have oil. Last time I checked, Vietnam didn't have oil. Last time I checked, Korea didn't have oil. Last time I checked, Germany, Japan, and Italy didn't have oil. We would LOVE to clean house in Libya and Venezuala and Iran and North Korea and Sudan and a hell of a lot of other countries. But, we apparantly can't invade one at a time without getting called empire builders, and we can't invade a ton of countries at once. Give it time, and eventually every human being will live under a functioning free democracy.
 
JUANR
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RE: As Venezuela Tilts Left, A Rum Mogul Reaches Out

Fri Nov 12, 2004 5:42 am

Give it time, and eventually every human being will live under a functioning free democracy.

You got the point right, that's one of my worst fears, you are willing to impose your style life, (that thing that you call free democracy is bullshit), to every other country or destroy it. I do not need to give you time, in time, you will destroy us and yourselves before you even notice it.

Fortunately history shows as that every empire has fallen, unfortunately you are the first empire with the power of destroy the whole world in the process.

Juan
SKBO

Bogotá: 2600 Metros Más Cerca De Las Estrellas; Vamos por los XVII Juegos Nacionales!!!!!!!!!
 
MaverickM11
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RE: As Venezuela Tilts Left, A Rum Mogul Reaches Out

Fri Nov 12, 2004 6:42 am

"Maverick: Why do you care about it?, since Chavez have agreed to keep selling his petroleum to your country I stopped listening for complaints on him from the power of the north."

Poverty is up, unemployment is up, freedom of the press is squashed, etc.--yeah...why should anyone care about that  Yeah sure.

"that thing that you call free democracy is bullshit"

It's better than anything Chavez has to offer. He has to jail his opponents and pay off the slum dwellers to stay in office.

[Edited 2004-11-11 22:46:09]
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
L.1011
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RE: As Venezuela Tilts Left, A Rum Mogul Reaches Out

Fri Nov 12, 2004 6:48 am

You got the point right, that's one of my worst fears, you are willing to impose your style life, (that thing that you call free democracy is bullshit), to every other country or destroy it. I do not need to give you time, in time, you will destroy us and yourselves before you even notice it.

Man, I see you take full advantage of your countries ample supply of the coca plant. Free democracy is free democracy. And it won't just be us defeating the despotic, selfish, corrupt dictators and sham democracies. It will be the people. Look at Iran, students are standing up to their ridiculous government. Give it time, and everyone will be able to vote for their leaders. When that happens, the Third World can begin the process of becoming a part of the First World, and we can all enjoy freedom and liberty.
 
gigneil
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RE: As Venezuela Tilts Left, A Rum Mogul Reaches O

Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:24 am

Heh, if you think "free democracy" is what the US is setting up in other countries, you really are out of it.

Go read my neo-conservative thread in this forum.

N
 
MaverickM11
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RE: As Venezuela Tilts Left, A Rum Mogul Reaches Out

Fri Nov 12, 2004 9:07 am

"Heh, if you think "free democracy" is what the US is setting up in other countries, you really are out of it"

*Sigh* Stick to the topic. And on that note, Chavez is setting up his own not-so-free not-really-democracy in Venezuela. Yet somehow that's ok because he's sticking it to the US.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
JUANR
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RE: As Venezuela Tilts Left, A Rum Mogul Reaches Out

Fri Nov 12, 2004 2:01 pm

L.1011... your comments on Coca are absurd, it is amazing how Americans reply with any "drug-related" comment when they found themselves losing a simple debate, I think they are learning from their president....

....talking about your president...he has anounnced that on november 22 he will make a 5 hours visit to our fascist president in Cartagena, it is a shame he is not coming to Bogota, an insult given that is the capital city, but, he seems to be to afraid even to spend a single night hour in our country. Is he paying Uribe the favor for Colombian support in Iraq war? I do not get what he is going to do here, I just hope that our fellow friends on the Colombian Caribbean costs will receive him in the way he deserves, if that happens he will be ashamed to compare how he is going to be receiced, how Clinton was received and how Kennedy was received back in the sixties (of course that would only happed in our fascist leader allows it). But for sure...we are not as stupid as those citizens in red states....

Juan
SKBO



Bogotá: 2600 Metros Más Cerca De Las Estrellas; Vamos por los XVII Juegos Nacionales!!!!!!!!!
 
MaverickM11
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RE: As Venezuela Tilts Left, A Rum Mogul Reaches Out

Fri Nov 12, 2004 2:19 pm

" they found themselves losing a simple debate"

Not so much losing a debate as talking to someone who is completely out of their gourd...
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
JUANR
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RE: As Venezuela Tilts Left, A Rum Mogul Reaches Out

Fri Nov 12, 2004 2:23 pm

Maverick:

I really hoped you would write something smarter...oh, I forgot, you voted Bush.

Juan
SKBO
Bogotá: 2600 Metros Más Cerca De Las Estrellas; Vamos por los XVII Juegos Nacionales!!!!!!!!!
 
MaverickM11
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Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: As Venezuela Tilts Left, A Rum Mogul Reaches Out

Fri Nov 12, 2004 2:34 pm

"I really hoped you would write something smarter...oh, I forgot, you voted Bush."

What on God's green earth are you talking about? This thread is about VENEZUELA and CHAVEZ, not Bush. There are a bizillion other threads for you to disparage America and Bush.

I said Chavez is a terrible leader that has destroyed Venezuela. Then you ask me "why do you care?" and start babbling about Bush. Why the need to be so rude? Stick to the topic.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
mia
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RE: As Venezuela Tilts Left, A Rum Mogul Reaches O

Fri Nov 12, 2004 3:55 pm

I am glad to read this. If all oligarchs where as honest and well minded as he Venezuela would have no problems. He is responsible. I have nothing but respect for this man just shows how you cannot stereotype a class of people.
"Like all great travelers, I have seen more than I remember, and remember more than I have seen."
 
WiLdmanVzla
Posts: 590
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RE: As Venezuela Tilts Left, A Rum Mogul Reaches Out

Fri Nov 12, 2004 4:26 pm

This one is a really nice thread... so let me write something about one thing wrote a few posts before (with all my respect for sure):

L1011 wrote "... When that happens, the Third World can begin the process of becoming a part of the First World ..."

That's a nice thought... but please, please, please, can we start to understand the meaning of each country' culturgram?.

Sometimes I use to think about the meaning of that sentence, applied to some countries in the world with a big hope from some of us for them to be a 100% democratic, with their people to have a culture of democracy... and that culture working for a better situation helping to improve their quality of life.

Appliying that sentence to the current situation of Venezuela... well, let me explain you something: Venezuela had a history of almost 40 years of democracy... the people in our country (in special way people like me, middle - class & born in democracy) thought that we were living in a good political system, a system who can improve itself with all the experience we (as a society) were getting each year.

... but something was getting wrong... since the economical crisis in 1982, almost half of the society started to ask for order & a big fight against corruption; they even started to ask for a gov. with 'the balls' (sorry, that was the common sentence) to stop the spiral of corruption, even if it wasn't elected on a democratic way!!!!!!!.

When Chavez did the failed coup d'etat in 1992 (the february one), the gov did the biggest mistake: they showed Chavez on the TV, giving venezuelans a face to put those hopes... and the political system (including the political parties for sure) was so static, doing things as the way as they used to, looking only for power and forgetting their duty.

So Chavez became the guy... he was elected president in 1998 with almost 60% of the votes. A lot of people who woted for Chavez are now protesting against him... but the big deal was that Chavez was the guy supposed to fight against corruption, he always said he was going to do what he's doing now... and the current opposition (they were at the gov in those former times) is crying because of the guy they helped to make!!!!!!!!.

Some people use to ask me (here in Mexico) about why is Chavez so strong, even with that apparent hate against him. I answer that the big deal is about the culturgram of the venezuelan society right now: historically (as almost all latin american countries) Venezuela was made by 'caudillos', guys who were really powerful, with all the system working for them and because of them... & democracy was just an utopia... that's an strong cultural backup, and you can not throw it away from the unconscius of the collective (the society) just with good hopes... look at Chavez!!!! look all the symbols he's using to stay in power!!!!!, those symbols are the base of the venezuelan culturgram.

L1011... I must say that I totally agree with you in that sentence... but perhaps some societies like the venezuelan one won't become a 'first world' one as the way as we understand & hope... maybe the venezuelan society needs a different choice. Chavez won´t be the way to become a better society for sure, but I'm sure he was needed in order to revive our historical problem & work in a collective way to change a paradigm.

Best regards for everyone.

*******
 
MaverickM11
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RE: As Venezuela Tilts Left, A Rum Mogul Reaches Out

Sat Nov 13, 2004 1:07 am

"but I'm sure he was needed in order to revive our historical problem & work in a collective way to change a paradigm"

He is a lot like Robert Mugabe, or the rebel group in Cote d'Ivoire: the countries were heading in the right direction under imperfect leadership until there was a "shift in paradigm". Now "progress" comes in the form of increased poverty, increased violence, and fleeing investment. They may all be popular with the people, but they are doing much more harm than good.
E pur si muove -Galileo

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