dtwclipper
Posts: 6668
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To Our Dutch Members

Mon Nov 15, 2004 2:26 am

How bad are things in Holland now? It seems that you are reaching the boiling point with your Muslim guests.

The division was stark: The Dutch had the world's most tolerant, open-minded society, with full sexual equality and same-sex marriage, as well as liberal policies on soft drugs and prostitution; but a large segment of the fast-growing Muslim population kept that society at arm's length, despising its freedoms.

Instead of addressing this issue, Dutch officials (like their counterparts across the continent) churned out rhetoric about multicultural diversity and mutual respect. By tolerating Muslim intolerance of Western society, was the Netherlands setting itself on a path toward cataclysmic social confrontation? When I tried to broach the topic, Dutch acquaintances made clear it was off limits.

This reticence still applied in February 2002, when Mr. Fortuyn argued that radical Islam was capable of destroying and depleting his country.

His comments got him expelled from his party. Though many in the country shared his views, those views remained anathema to the political and media establishment. No more.

After the murder of Mr. van Gogh, whose accused killer belonged to a radical Muslim network, Dutch newspapers were filled with long articles that sounded like Mr. Fortuyn. Jihad has reached the Netherlands, one commentator wrote. Another asked: Has the Netherlands become a country in which you can no longer say what you want, or does the taboo apply only to Islam? (This is a nation, after all, to which people fled centuries ago to speak and write freely.)


http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/14/weekinreview/14bawe.html

I think it is time for the Dutch government to deport these people. If they do not want to be a part of your society, then it is time for them to go!

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rjpieces
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RE: To Our Dutch Members

Mon Nov 15, 2004 2:31 am

I read a similiar article and was about to post it:
http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/ns/news/story.jsp?id=2004111318470002621094&dt=20041113184700&w=RTR&coview=


Sad really............

I think it is time for the Dutch government to deport these people. If they do not want to be a part of your society, then it is time for them to go!

I agree 100%. And replace "Dutch" with "American" or "French" and I agree even more.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
Scorpio
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RE: To Our Dutch Members

Mon Nov 15, 2004 2:47 am

I think it is time for the Dutch government to deport these people.

Define 'these people' please.
 
jasepl
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RE: To Our Dutch Members

Mon Nov 15, 2004 2:49 am

I think it is time for the Dutch government to deport these people. If they do not want to be a part of your society, then it is time for them to go!

Most of "these people" are Dutch as well, you know. And American or French.
 
dtwclipper
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RE: To Our Dutch Members

Mon Nov 15, 2004 2:52 am

No, the point is, they are not "Dutch"! They may carry a dutch passport, but that is about all.

They are not part of Dutch society, they segregate themselves, and have
"kept that society at arm's length, despising its freedoms."


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Scorpio
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RE: To Our Dutch Members

Mon Nov 15, 2004 2:58 am

I repeat: please DEFINE 'these people'.
 
NoUFO
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RE: To Our Dutch Members

Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:02 am

And where do you plan to deport people to if they carry a Dutch passport? What good are passports for? Maybe to define a nationality?
Those attacks on Mosques are a shame, btw.
I support the right to arm bears
 
jasepl
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RE: To Our Dutch Members

Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:05 am

They are not part of Dutch society, they segregate themselves, and have "kept that society at arm's length, despising its freedoms."

So do the KKK and a host of far-right Christian organisations in a lot of other countries. Should they be deported as well?
 
dtwclipper
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RE: To Our Dutch Members

Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:53 am

Scorpio:

We are talking about islamic radicals! I thought that it was clear in both articles.

NoUFO:

They should be returned to the countries from which they came.
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petertenthije
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RE: To Our Dutch Members

Mon Nov 15, 2004 4:01 am

Most of the people here don't like what's happening right now with the murders and the torching of mosques, churches and islamic elementary schools. You may not hear about it in the US, but most if not all Islamic organizations in the Netherlands have rejected the killings.

One of the main concerns right now is that none of the Imams are actually trained in the Netherlands but hired from abroad. We can not control them. Some of them may well be radical extremists. This is a concern that is, only now, being dealt with by the government. A bit late, but never late then never.

I think it is time for the Dutch government to deport these people.

I'd also like you to define those people. And also please tell me where you want us to send them? Please bare in mind that not many countries are going to accept them. Not even the countries where they/their ancestors came from.


They are not part of Dutch society, they segregate themselves, and have "kept that society at arm's length, despising its freedoms.

Fair enough, let's throw out everyone that segragates himself. But that would of course have to include the strong christians that enver seem to leave the Veluwe (can't blame them, beautiful area)? The gypsies that rarely set foot outside their camps? The Chinese that never seem to leave their restaurants? By your logic they would have to be deported as well?

I already know your response "hey, they have not killed anyone". That's true, but neither have the mayority of muslims that have segregated themselves.


This reticence still applied in February 2002, when Mr. Fortuyn...

Speaking of mr. Fortuyn, he was not killed by a muslim. He may have been a pain in the arse for muslims, but they did not kill him or (as far as I know) threaten to do so.




PS: RJpieces, why are you telling us what to do when you ahve repeatedly told us not to critisize with US policies. Just wondering!  Smile


[Edited 2004-11-14 20:02:06]
Attamottamotta!
 
Scorpio
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RE: To Our Dutch Members

Mon Nov 15, 2004 4:02 am

We are talking about islamic radicals! I thought that it was clear in both articles.

Seems to me that your interpretation of 'radicals' is quite a broad one. So please tell me what qualifies one to be termed a radical, and what doesn't?

They should be returned to the countries from which they came.

Beautiful! So you're going to return them to... The Netherlands. What is that going to solve exactly?

[Edited 2004-11-14 20:04:04]
 
mauriceb
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RE: To Our Dutch Members

Mon Nov 15, 2004 4:03 am

Most of "these people" are Dutch as well, you know. And American or French.

not really, its all about muslim terrorist, the country were everything was possible is now ruined, and you know, at maximum the murder gets 20 years.. maximum, a lot of times they only have to be in jail for 12 years.

a lot of people that came to holland came here because you can have youre opinion about everything without being banned, ''killed'' (by the government), and what are they doing now, shooting people wich don't hate muslims but just have theire opinion. they feel like they will go to allah as a brave man. those people wich even have a Fundementalistic thought should be deported, wich are a lot of people, after rechearch its stated that 500.000 people in the netherlands have fundamentalistic toughts.

thrust me "holland'' is going mad and it won't stop here... more churches , schools etc.. will be burned , we should have a better law wich anables to get in holland so easy.... because this is going mad
 
jasepl
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RE: To Our Dutch Members

Mon Nov 15, 2004 4:09 am

Beautiful! So you're going to return them to... The Netherlands. What is that going to solve exactly?

Priceless!  Smile
 
TechRep
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RE: To Our Dutch Members

Mon Nov 15, 2004 4:21 am

Jasepl,

So what exactly should be done sir? Islamists are killing people who have any diffence of opinion to Islam, which is very intolerant. Instead of condemning our words and emotions offer some solutions.


Techrep
 
jasepl
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RE: To Our Dutch Members

Mon Nov 15, 2004 4:30 am

Techrep, many of these people are fully Dutch. Some were even born there. That's where they come from and that's where they will have to be sent.

Besides, what do your emotions have to do with the Netherlands?
 
dtwclipper
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RE: To Our Dutch Members

Mon Nov 15, 2004 4:43 am

Jasepl:

Because this is the wave of the future! We will see battle lines between the two accross Europe and America as well.

This is just the begining my freind.


This is incorrect: many of these people are fully Dutch, they are not.

As quoted before "a large segment of the fast-growing Muslim population kept that society at arm's length, despising its freedoms"
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TechRep
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RE: To Our Dutch Members

Mon Nov 15, 2004 4:44 am

Jasepl,

Instead of dancing around the fucking issue answer the question! What should be done do "radical islamists" who threaten or kill people when they make Islam look the slightest bit wrong? Before you answer, this is no an isolated incident in Georgia by the KKK but becoming commonplace on a worldly scale.

Will Muslims hit the streets and attempt to rid their mosques of these individuals? I have never seen such an attempt. So until Muslims clean their houses of radicals Islamists this shit will continue!

TechRep


 
Scorpio
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RE: To Our Dutch Members

Mon Nov 15, 2004 4:44 am

Instead of condemning our words and emotions offer some solutions.

We are not condemning your 'emotions', we are condemning the simplistic solutions some here are offering. The deportation scenario is quite simply not workable, for the simple reason that the large majority of these, mostly quite young, radicals were born and raised in, in this case, the Netherlands. Quite a few are 3rd generation immigrants already. It's the same as sending Americans of Italian descent back to Italy if they commit a crime, even though they've never been, let alone lived there.

the solution to this problem is not an easy one, despite what some here will have you believe. Just like the current situation is very complicated and was cause by several groups of people, both immigrants and the native population, the solution will have to come from several sides as well, and will not be easy.
 
TechRep
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RE: To Our Dutch Members

Mon Nov 15, 2004 5:10 am

This information taken from http://www.islamistwatch.org/main.html I feel these statements sum up what I have witnessed from Islam.

In a bizarre twist that can be traced at least as far back to Sayyeed Abul A'la Maududi's writings in Jihad in Islam, the Islamists claim that anyone is free to accept or reject Islam. But whether you decide to become Muslim or not, you will live under Shariah law, by force if necessary. This allows them to use all means necessary to destroy a non-Muslim's government and society and establish Shariah law in its place--and yet still make the claim that they aren't forcing anyone to become a Muslim.

They believe this current (or coming) war is the ultimate confrontation between the seat of all evil, the western secular democracies (with the arrogant U.S. government leading the charge) and the heart of all good things: Islam as expounded by the Islamists. The texts on IslamistWatch.org were written by the most famous Islamists and they detail the "why" of their religious war; actions by groups like Al-Qaeda, Islamic Jihad, and Al-Fuqra reveal the "how".

It appears that the vast majority of Muslims living in the west are not Islamists, and since the majority of Muslims living in the middle east are not involved in militaristic ventures to spread Islam it must be that they are not Islamists either. This lack of direct involvement of vast numbers of Muslims to wage jihad against the west does vex the Islamists. They are greatly vexed. And they are continuously exhorting their fellow Muslims to take up the sword of jihad. When this doesn't happen, they console themselves in the Quran, which has passages to the effect that those who are the greatest servants of Allah are tiny in number.

Non-Muslims throughout the world should be put on notice that whatever they may think of the arguments for or against Jihad as presented by the works reprinted on IslamistWatch.org, the Islamists themselves believe the arguments are valid, and have taken and are taking appropriate actions. Namely, to kill the infidel wherever and whenever they have reasonable opportunity. Osama bin Laden's November 2002 communiques list the places that will happen.

Many of the texts on this site make clear that the infidel must be offered a chance to convert to Islam before they can be utterly wiped out. The most recent communique by Bin Laden does exactly this: he "invites" the Americans to Islam. Having fulfilled this requirement, he can now concentrate on aquiring the weapons of mass destruction he has said it is his religious duty to acquire, presumably to detonate on American soil.

Techrep

 
PPGMD
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RE: To Our Dutch Members

Mon Nov 15, 2004 5:10 am

I do believe that the Dutch government are dealing with the Muslim extremist problem. Didn't they recently bust a rather large network?

The problem with the Dutch is that they are reactive when it comes to problems, not proactive, like they should be. It was a problem with computer crimes during the early 90's, now it's Muslim extremists.

Also many Americans believe that groups that promote violence (including the KKK, and the right wing anti-abortion groups) should be jailed. In fact most Americans think that way, why do you think the KKK has such a small influence any more. They are now watched like a hawk, they so much as litter, and they are arrested in the areas that they demonstrate.
At worst, you screw up and die.
 
PH-BFA
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RE: To Our Dutch Members

Mon Nov 15, 2004 5:45 am

The problem is that the Dutch politicians don't represent the people anymore. They just sit in the Hague and think about what is best for them. They try to convince us that their policies are the best for us eventually, but in the end it all turns out in to problems. I just name a few: the euro (they promised the euro would not cause any changes in pricelevels, yet in one year prices soared over 50 percent in for example pubs, restaurants), the numerous project that are unable to be profitable (for example the betuwelijn) and most importantly the immigration of foreigners. They will always deny it, but it failed not a little bit, but COMPLETELY. The best thing about it is that the left wing parties never wanted to confess it, always trying to tell us that nothing went wrong with the immigration, until Pim Fortuyn said what he thought about it and those left wing parties like the PvdA finally could not hold their point of view, as they lost big time. I think it is a god gift that people like Geert Wilders still try to make the best of it, keeping a strong position about radical islamists and the problems we are facing with the immigration of the muslim community. These problems are very real and should not be neglected. A fact is that muslims do have a different culture(including values and morales) which interfere with the way we think over here. I think much more attention should be focused on these problems. I am often quite jealous on the way the US deals with terrorism and radicalism. They do know the serious implications of it and act consequently.

PH-BFA

[Edited 2004-11-14 21:45:56]
 
RobertNL070
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RE: To Our Dutch Members

Mon Nov 15, 2004 6:07 am

The Dutch government is doing its best, albeit belatedly, to round up possible Muslim terrorists. Only last Wednesday there was a siege in Laakkwartier, a deprived district in The Hague not one mile from where I live. One of the two suspects arrested after the siege is languishing in Scheveningen Prison's hopspital recovering from gunshot wounds to the shoulder. His name is Jason W. (in the Netherlands its not done to publish the full surname of a criminal suspect), 19 years old. Born of an American father and Dutch mother.

Dtwclipper, Rjpieces et al,
If proven guilty of plotting terrorist activities, or whatever the charges may be, where shall we deport him to? Do you want him back?

Regards, Robert
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solnabo
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RE: To Our Dutch Members

Mon Nov 15, 2004 6:13 am

OMG!!

And this topic is from an YANKEE!!!! Tell me, what is an american, huh???????

US is a humongus melting pot, so dont tell Europeans what to do!

Jeeezuz  Insane

Michael/SE
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TechRep
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RE: To Our Dutch Members

Mon Nov 15, 2004 6:27 am

OMG!!

And this topic is from an YANKEE!!!! Tell me, what is an american, huh???????

US is a humongus melting pot, so dont tell Europeans what to do!

Jeeezuz

Michael/SE


Typical! Another liberal, Euro-pacifist who believes if you ignore a problem long enough it will somehow dematerialize.

TechRep
 
dtwclipper
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RE: To Our Dutch Members

Mon Nov 15, 2004 6:29 am

RobertNL070:

Jason W. is not the problem. The root of the issue is the extremists who are training them. As with our own Johnny Jihad, you should lock him up and through away the key. My fear is, that our Johnny will get off, write a book and get his own TV talk show!

Solnabo:

This is no longer a Euro or American issue, and I did not intend it to be so. This is an issue that all of "western" civilization is facing. I never said that the US was a "humongus melting pot."

However, here in Detroit we have the largest Arab-American population in the US, and also outside the of the Middle east.

99 percent of them are living the american dream, working, sending their kids to university, buying homes, etc., but it is that 1% that is causing the rest of the world the most grief.




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solnabo
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RE: To Our Dutch Members

Mon Nov 15, 2004 6:37 am

We´re having our problem, belive me, but nothing will be solved by kicking out muslims from Sweden!

I hope u get that trough you´re head, McLard!

Micke//SE
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TechRep
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RE: To Our Dutch Members

Mon Nov 15, 2004 6:38 am

Your very irreverent reply wouldn’t be so annoying if you could actually contribute in some way to some answers. The typical 10-words-or- less “A.Net” bash wont work with this discussion. So please, enlighten us with how you would solve this very worldly issue?

TechRep
 
dtwclipper
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RE: To Our Dutch Members

Mon Nov 15, 2004 6:40 am

Solnabo;

Could you please reply without being insulting and crude, and maybe add to the discussion.

dtwclipper
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Boeing4ever
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RE: To Our Dutch Members

Mon Nov 15, 2004 6:41 am

I hope u get that trough you´re head, McLard!

You need to grow up son. You're in A.net's Non-Av forum...you're playing with the big boys now. Come up with something intelligent, or go back to Civ Av as a cheerleader for Airbus!

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solnabo
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RE: To Our Dutch Members

Mon Nov 15, 2004 6:43 am


U tell me WHY I should give you long answers when U already made up you´re mind about muslims in Nederland?

This topic is some kind of neo-nazism in my book, thats for sure!

0,01
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Boeing4ever
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RE: To Our Dutch Members

Mon Nov 15, 2004 6:48 am

U tell me WHY I should give you long answers when U already made up you´re mind about muslims in Nederland?

This topic is some kind of neo-nazism in my book, thats for sure!


ONE!:Deportation of Muslims is not a solution. That's where you and I agree, but unlike you, I can actually formulate reasons and have the ability to disagree with dtwclipper with a well thought out response, and NOT some 10-word childish flame post
TWO!:You have ZERO credibility on these forums, I hope you know that. And your posts are a reason for it. Get an IQ, and maybe people here will take you seriously. You do more detriment to your side of the argument with posts like that than help.
THREE!:There are rules on these board...calling someone "fuckface" or "McLard" is NOT allowed under A.net's rulebook...and neither is A v B.

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dtwclipper
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RE: To Our Dutch Members

Mon Nov 15, 2004 6:48 am

Solnabo,

Lay off the Aquavit!

"This topic is some kind of neo-nazism in my book, thats for sure"

We are talking about a very real problem in Holland and how the dutch and the rest of the world should deal with it. In all reality, this will be a problem the rest of Europe and the States will have to deal with in the very near future.



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Scorpio
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RE: To Our Dutch Members

Mon Nov 15, 2004 6:50 am

Solnabo, PLEASE be quiet. PLEASE.
 
BREmer
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RE: To Our Dutch Members

Mon Nov 15, 2004 7:12 am

--> They are not part of Dutch society, they segregate themselves, and have "kept that society at arm's length, despising its freedoms. <--

This is sadly true, and also concerns most other Western European countries such as Germany. But I think the real problem is that the governments have failed in taking actions to help integrating these muslim communities into the society. There are indeed thousands of 3rd generation immigrants who live in their own communities in appartment block slums in European cities and still don't know the language of their host country properly. What these areas need is a structure of support that stretches from child daycare and mandatory language courses at kindergarten ages to a better cooperation between the government and the mosques, or even a network of social workes who tackle the problems in these areas and help people connecting to the working society of their host country. Of course this isn't too cheap, but if you cut fundings for these areas over years and just watch the problems grow, you shouldn't be surprised if you're paying the price some day when things start to go out of control.

Lukas
 
jasepl
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RE: To Our Dutch Members

Mon Nov 15, 2004 7:19 am

Instead of dancing around the fucking issue answer the question!

Ah yes! Such politeness! I really do want to bend over backwards for you now!

Did you miss your therapy session today? Assholes Anonymous, wasn't it?
 
CPH-R
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RE: To Our Dutch Members

Mon Nov 15, 2004 7:46 am

I suppose the Dutch will also send those people home who burnt off a Muslim school, a muslim mosque etc.
 
jaysit
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RE: To Our Dutch Members

Mon Nov 15, 2004 8:05 am

What we have in Holland with these fanatical Muslims is a subculture that does not believe in the separation of religion and civil law. We have people like that in the United States too. The only difference is that in Holland they are overwhelmingly Muslim; in the United States they are overwhelmingly of a fundamentalist Christian nature. The former are disenfranchised mostly by their own actions and prone to violence; the latter have made huge inroads in the US govt - all the way to the White House, and so have not had to resort to violence in recent years (in contrast to the violent anti-abortion bombers, the Tim McVeighs of the world, etc.).

I think that these right wing Muslims are LESS of a danger to Holland in the long run, than Christian fundamentalists are to the US. For one, Holland is firmly and fully dedicated to a secular, modern, progressive society, something that we in the US are dangerously moving away from. The fact that these Muslims don't prescribe to these tenets puts them fully at odds with the Dutch political and social nature, and it will be hard - if not impossible - for them to assimilate. I seriously do not believe that a right wing religious leader of any shade or creed would pop up in Holland. Fortuyn may have been right wing, but he wasn't promoting the dismantling of Holland's modern secular character. In contrast, the Christian fundies here in the US have ingratiated themselves into the highest ranks of government.

What the fundie Muslims are saying in Holland is "tolerate our intolerance;" the fundies in the US are saying more than that. They are saying "enshrine our intolerance in law."
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
iakobos
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RE: To Our Dutch Members

Mon Nov 15, 2004 9:28 am

My two and a half cents,

Western European countries welcomed Italians, Spanish, Greeks, Poles, etc... in the 50's and 60's. We needed hands for our coal mines and steel factories.
Quite a few stayed, became citizens and in parallel were proud of their heritage.
They came with one intention, to work, and consequently make a living and if possible save money and spend their old days back in their motherland.
There was no motive for dissent of any sort, both because people of that generation had known the hardships of a war and because the economics were right for them.

North Africans immigrants came at a later stage, and believe it or not, it was a by-product of the decolonization. These people came for the very same reasons and with the same intentions. Religion was not an issue at all.
Though, on one hand the majority of these people did not have the "hard worker" mentality of the central and southern Europeans, on the other hand the economics were different, with the result that most found only (rather) lowly paid jobs. Both by necessity and by (Mediterranean) tradition they indeed segregated themselves and ended up occupying almost exclusively some of the poorest neighbourhoods.
The N Africans make children ! this was not only due to their natural wish to have a large family, but was further enhanced by the very liberal security systems, allocating a monthly revenue for every child, in a very rapid progression from the 3rd child onwards. The law was not intended for them of course, but it worked for all.
E.g. in the 80's in Belgium, a father with 6 children got about 1,300$/monthly
(non-taxable) only in child allocations. If he had worked 5 years and then got unemployed, he would perceive another non-taxable 800-900$/mth for an almost indefinite period of time.
The mother would do some undeclared extras as housecleaner, adding another 300$. > Total net income 2,500$/month ('80s)
Anyone surprised that many did only work for some time, then switched to a less stressful life ?

IMO the preconditions for today's problems are to be found there.

I'll come back later with the rest.
 
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Luxair
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RE: To Our Dutch Members

Mon Nov 15, 2004 7:10 pm

I live in The Hague for quiet a while now and seeing what happened last few weeks doesn't make me realy nervous because I know that it is only a handful of radical people (Duch extremists and moslim extremists) who are trying to kill the democratie but at the end I think/hope that those events on long term will bring people closer together as before. In every days life the ethnic groups work and live fine together here (my observation) and my friends are a good mix of different ethnics as by ex. Hindus, Moslims and Christians and we live without any problems we respect each other and I don't see any reason to destroy what we build over years only because of a handful fundamentalists.
I'm in favour to change the laws I think there is an urgent need for that. It is unacceptable to burn down muslim schools or churches and the government should do anything with the highest punishments possible to avoid such stupid
actions in the future. We are all, young or old or whatever ethinc group we're coming from responsible for our future!
 
AMS
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RE: To Our Dutch Members

Mon Nov 15, 2004 7:50 pm

The Dutch police and Government have been always very open and tolerant towards many issues. Now unfortunately these insitutions cannot be tolerant anymore (unfortunately). Some people are abusing our system too much, and this lead to much tension under the Dutch people.

Also the Netherlands always has been a country of Freedom, Respect towards different cultures and their activities in the Netherlands, However some people abuse our free and open society, and therefore the Police and government will be more alert and more strict against those who are living in Holland and think that we have an easy touch and that you can do anything over here.

Regards,
AMS
 
iakobos
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RE: To Our Dutch Members

Mon Nov 15, 2004 10:06 pm

We are now hosting the original immigrants from the 60-70's of which a majority have retired and benefit from a state pension, their extended families whom have joined in after they were assured of a secure landing point, and the second generation (born in the 70/begin 80's).
That is quite a lot of people. Quite typical of this, the given name that comes on top of the list of male newborns in the Brussels region in 2004 is Mohamed.

No need to be an expert in demography to realize there is a new and bigger wave in pampers right now, something to think about...

In a lot of municipal primary and even secundary schools the majority of boys and girls are North Africans. This has a direct and negative influence on the quality of public education, and consequently leads the indigeneous population to send their children to the private (and catholic) schools.

On the economic front, things have changed also, while a majority of the population is benefitting from constant improvements in our liberal systems, the fact is that a/ the markets require always more skills/knowledge from the new workforce, and b/ there is simply not enough work to satisfy everyone.

Nothing about religion so far.

If you could read between the lines, you will have understood that the gap between the "true" locals and the N. Afr immigrants is widening, despite honest efforts at all levels of civil authority.
The N. Afr "workforce" weighs very heavily on the level of unemployment.
Add unemployment with rather poor education, segregated neighbourhoods, envy, lust for money, wrong examples at home, no or little hope at any sort of improvement, and important, the absence of tangible evidence of (supposedly or not) claimed proud roots.

Here we go.

In France and Belgium, at least, Islam was (state) recognized as an official religion more than 3 decades ago. Consequently, religious teachers were appointed (paid by the state) in public schools, exactly like their Catholic, Protestant and Israelite (and free thinking) colleagues. The creation of mosques was authorized, more than often even subsidized.
Imams came from the same countries as their fidels, but few were needed.

Next and last chapter soon






 
Yazoo
Posts: 373
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2001 3:26 am

RE: To Our Dutch Members

Tue Nov 16, 2004 2:32 am

I would like to ask one question to the folks who believe that those dutch-muslim Extremists should be deported:

Should have the US deported Al Capone and all the italian-american Mob members that were doing some serious rampage in the first half of the last century back to Italy just because they have roots there?
Purple Pride!
 
dtwclipper
Posts: 6668
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2003 3:17 am

RE: To Our Dutch Members

Tue Nov 16, 2004 2:46 am

Yazoo,

"Should have the US deported Al Capone and all the italian-american Mob members that were doing some serious rampage in the first half of the last century back to Italy just because they have roots there?"

I would suggest there is a great deal of differnece between organized crime, and organized terrorism.

Capone did not normaly go after "civilians" as terrorist do. Bad analogy.
Compare New York Air, the Airline that works for your Business
 
Yazoo
Posts: 373
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2001 3:26 am

RE: To Our Dutch Members

Tue Nov 16, 2004 3:30 am

Dtwclipper, I understand that, but that's not the point, I just dont understand how some people claim that they should be deported. sounds very lovely, but deported to where? the countries where they have their roots wont accept them because most of them are born-dutch citizens ( some are even 2nd or 3rd generation dutch!) and thus are considered foreign nationals.
Purple Pride!
 
mdsh00
Posts: 3968
Joined: Mon May 17, 2004 11:28 am

RE: To Our Dutch Members

Tue Nov 16, 2004 3:38 am

but deported to where? the countries where they have their roots wont accept them because most of them are born-dutch citizens ( some are even 2nd or 3rd generation dutch!) and thus are considered foreign nationals.

Forget deportation. Maybe the Dutch judicial system just needs to become more strict. 25 years maximum for murder does not sound right. Yes it will be a burden on Dutch taxpayers but it is necessary to be a bit more harsh.
"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
 
Yazoo
Posts: 373
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2001 3:26 am

RE: To Our Dutch Members

Tue Nov 16, 2004 3:52 am

I agree with you on that. 25 years in jail can be a long time, but definetly not in Dutch jails, I mean, Cable TV, Internet, Sex Cells, etc etc... ??? it's more of a hotel than a prison. Heck, I even read that at Schutterswei, a jail in Alkmaar ( close to Amsterdam) prisoners are paid a weekly salary!
Purple Pride!
 
ltbewr
Posts: 12361
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

RE: To Our Dutch Members

Tue Nov 16, 2004 4:06 am

There are a number of day to day issue as to Islamic believers in Europe helping to trigger violent reactions. For example: the acceptance of nudity and nudity in public advertising, the open acceptance of sex prostitution, a lack of intergration into general society (discrimination and segeration as to schools, housing, jobs), a lack of tolarance as to someone expressing their a faith (the ban on Islamic girls in school wearing head scarfs, the anti-clerical movements in the history in some EC countries), the lack of proper immigration controls for many years. This is futher worsened by the high birth rates in Islamic families due as birth control is not allowed under their faith. Currently, about 10% of France, and about 5% of the populations of Germany and the Netherlands are Islamic.
Europeans may need to recognize the need of changes in what is good in the long run in society and reconsider their liberal attitudes toward public nudity, abortion, the sex trades, and so on. They need to have enough children to replace themselves so not to be overwhelmed by the numbers of those from Islam. They need to revise immigration and asylum laws. They need to be tolorant as to religious expression (like allow school girls to wear head scrafs in French public schools, or their teachers to wear crosses), yet not just acknowlege Christian faiths as the only accepted faiths. They also need to change the labor laws so jobs are easier to get and expand their economies. People who have a job are a lot less likely to be criminals or be attracted to religious extremeism.
Those citizens of moderate Islam must try to make it clear they will be a part of their communities as well, to try not to be too isolated in their neighborhoods and only see a limited point of view.
 
bahadir
Posts: 1281
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2001 4:57 pm

RE: To Our Dutch Members

Tue Nov 16, 2004 9:41 am

Dutch are busy protecting international terrorists, like the leader of women recruitment for PKK.

Another killer of a turkish mogul is being protected by Belgium.. So, yes, things are interesting in the land of Dutch..
Earthbound misfit I
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 5421
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

RE: To Our Dutch Members

Tue Nov 16, 2004 4:45 pm

Europeans may need to recognize the need of changes in what is good in the long run in society and reconsider their liberal attitudes toward public nudity, abortion, the sex trades, and so on.

If I could I would paste here the scene from People vs. Larry Flynt where he does that little presentation and asks the question whether pornography is a picture of Playboy-quality naked butt or movie about dead bodies bulldozed into mass graves.

You mean like facing the intolerance and radicalism of Islam by returning to Christian bigotry??? Fighting fire with fire? Ummm... no thanks. Your president, who hears these "callings", obviously thinks that slamming the crescent with a cross will achieve anything, I belive it only takes you back to the medieval ages.

There was an article about the situation in Holland in yesterday's newspaper. One of the quotes by a guy called Jose de Beus, who is some sort of Dutch expert over minorities, was quite worrisome: "Young Muslims find fundamentalistic Islam a mean of their generatinal revolt. They blame their parents for adjusting themselves too much to the Dutch way of life and that they betrayed Islam in order to succeed."
It it is indeed as he describes, then there's something like deep-rooted incompatibility with the culture of their (only technically?) home country present among the young Muslim population.
I'm sure the Dutch a.netter will give me more insight.
 
767Lover
Posts: 3254
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2003 6:32 am

RE: To Our Dutch Members

Tue Nov 16, 2004 10:02 pm

You mean like facing the intolerance and radicalism of Islam by returning to Christian bigotry??? Fighting fire with fire? Um... no thanks. Your president, who hears these "callings", obviously thinks that slamming the crescent with a cross will achieve anything, I belive it only takes you back to the medieval ages.

Okay, I'm no Bush fan nor a fan of organized religion, but I have to step in and respond to this.

I worry about the misinformation that keeps circulating around the world in regards to the US. While President Bush is openly devoted to his faith, he has maintained a secular society. In fact, he has on numerous occasions since 9/11 spoken about the fact that Islam is a peaceful religion and that the Muslim population as a whole is not our enemy.

I appreciate the fact that the US is a secular nation, even though it goes overboard by, for example, forbidding companies to have "Christmas" parties...they must be "holiday" parties. Communities must post "Season's Greetings" instead of "Merry Christmas." Blue and silver has replaced red and green as the color of choice for corporate greeting cards! Which is fine.

And by the way, Christians are some of the most tolerant, understanding, non-judgmental people I have ever met -- and I am in the creative services industry where I mostly associate with liberals, agnostics, gays, etc. In experience, when the chips are down and someone needs help, it's the former that has always stepped up to lend a hand.

As for issues like abortion, I used to be fervently pro-choice but now I'm not so sure if it is right for us to end the life of an innocent being. I still don't know, but I'd rather err on the side of not killing vs. killing.

Finally, it may interest people to know that a large number of voters who crossed the line from Gore in 2000 to Bush in 2004 are Jews.

If any of you would like to come and visit the "real" America, l'd be delighted to show you!

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