xpat
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Indian/US Dual Citizenship

Wed Nov 17, 2004 12:58 am

I was just wondering if anyone has information regarding dual citizenship betwen India and the US. I believe I heard rumors several years ago, stating that this would soon become a reality. I have checked the Embassy of India (Washington, DC) website and do not see any information regarding this.

There is the option of getting a PIO (Person of Indian Origin) card, but that doesn't confer full Indian citizenship rights on the holder of the card i.e. no voting privileges, cannot carry a valid Indian passport etc. Also, if a person were to have a PIO card, would they still be subject to the arbitrary practice of having to pay higher fares for airlines and hotels in India than an Indian citizen?  Angry  Big grin
The only thing we have to fear is the sky falling on our heads. -Asterix
 
jaysit
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RE: Indian/US Dual Citizenship

Wed Nov 17, 2004 1:11 am

Also, if a person were to have a PIO card, would they still be subject to the arbitrary practice of having to pay higher fares for airlines and hotels in India than an Indian citizen?

Yes.
When I travel in India, I have my parents or friends do my travel arrangements. I refuse to be cheated by the GOI. While many NRIs can get away with this, foreign nationals of non-Indian origin get soundly ripped off. Its no wonder that Thailand gets 10 times the number of foreign tourists that India gets.

that doesn't confer full Indian citizenship rights on the holder of the card i.e. no voting privileges...

The dual citizenship - if it ever comes - will probably not entitle you to vote.

believe I heard rumors several years ago, stating that this would soon become a reality.

This is the GOI we are dealing with. Before this becomes a reality, the babus will engage in a bout of xenophobia on the floor of the Lok Sabha, the CPIs of all stripes will engage in a sound bashing of NRIs and call them traitors, and IF it passes this bout of brickbats, any proposal will be shuffled back and forth across ministries and committees.

If you thought that the process for ordering 3 777s for AI was tedious, imagine what it would be to grant dual citizenship to over 10 million people.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
B747-437B
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RE: Indian/US Dual Citizenship

Wed Nov 17, 2004 2:04 am

Alas Jaysit, your doom and gloom has been totally misplaced in this case.

The GoI has not only approved "overseas citizenship" for persons of Indian origin living in a number of countries, but has also provided a streamlined process for applying - processing takes just about 4 months. The cost is US$275.

Details about overseas citizenship can be found on the Ministry of Home Affairs website at http://www.mha.nic.in/citizenship/acquire1.htm.

The 16 specified countries for whose citizens "overseas citizenship of India" is available are :-

1. Australia
2. Canada
3. Finland
4. France
5. Greece
6. Ireland
7. Israel
8. Italy
9. Netherlands
10. New Zealand
11. Portugal
12. Republic of Cyprus
13. Sweden
14. Switzerland
15. United Kingdom
16. United States of America


IV Registration as Overseas Citizens of India

Documents : The procedure and documents required for registration as overseas Citizen of India is as under:

(i) An application for registration by a person of full age and capacity as an overseas citizen of India under Section 7 A (1) (a) shall be made in Form XIX;

(ii) An application for registration by a person of full age and capacity as an overseas citizen of India under Section 7 A (1) (b) shall be made in Form XIX A;

(iii) An application for registration of a minor child of an overseas citizen of India as an overseas citizen thereof under Section

7A(1) (c) shall be made in Form XIX B, and shall include the following particulars, namely:-

(a) a statement whether the applicant is a parent or guardian of the child and if is a guardian, how be became the guardian;

(b) a statement showing whether the child was adopted by the applicant and if so, documentary evidence to this effect;

(c) a statement indicating reasons for which the child is required to be registered as an overseas citizen of India.

(iv) Certificate of registration to be granted to persons registered and register of persons registered under Section 7 A (1) –

(1) Every person who is registered as an overseas citizen of India under Section 7A(1) shall be issued a certificate of registration in Form XX, duly signed by an officer not below the rank of an Under Secretary to the Government of India and where such a certificate is issued, a duplicate copy thereof shall be prepared and preserved for record by the issuing authority.

(2) There shall be kept by the Central Government in the Ministry of Home Affairs, a register containing names of the persons registered as overseas citizens of India under Section 7 A (1) in Form XXI.

(v) Declaration of renunciation of overseas citizen of India –

(1) A declaration of renunciation of overseas citizenship of India under Section 7 C (1) shall be made in Form XXII.

(2) The declaration shall be registered in the Ministry of Home Affairs of Government of India.

(3) On receipts of such declaration the Central Govt. shall issue an acknowledgement in Form XXII A.

(4) There shall be kept by Central Govt. in the Ministry of Home Affairs a register the Form XXII B, containing the names of persons where declarations of intentions to renounce overseas citizenship of India are registered.



PROCEDURE - The application for registration as an overseas citizen of India has to be made in the prescribed form. This form when completed should be submitted in triplicate;

(i) In India

to the Collector within whose jurisdiction the applicant is ordinary resident for transmission to the Central Government through the State Government or Union Territory Administration, as the case may be;

(ii) Elsewhere

to the Indian Consulate/Embassy whose jurisdiction the country of which an applicant is a citizen for this for transmission to the Central Government.



You can even download any and all of the forms specified in the law above at http://www.mha.nic.in/citizenship/forms/citi-form.htm
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
jaysit
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RE: Indian/US Dual Citizenship

Wed Nov 17, 2004 2:11 am

Oh my.
Me bad.
Thanks, -437B !
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
xpat
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RE: Indian/US Dual Citizenship

Wed Nov 17, 2004 2:37 am

Jay and Sean. Thank you both so much. Jay always love your sardonic wit and Sean...what can I say....you're always the voice of reason in every "storm". Thanks again!
The only thing we have to fear is the sky falling on our heads. -Asterix
 
jasepl
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RE: Indian/US Dual Citizenship

Wed Nov 17, 2004 2:47 am

What's the logic in only permitting citizens of a hnadful of countries to acquire dual Indian citizenship? Also, I suspect this isn't really full citizenship, but some sort of half measure the BJP came up with to patao their Pravasi Bhartiyas.
 
jaysit
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RE: Indian/US Dual Citizenship

Wed Nov 17, 2004 3:24 am

Also, I suspect this isn't really full citizenship, but some sort of half measure the BJP came up with to patao their Pravasi Bhartiyas.

No voting rights, I believe.

But now I get to feel conflicted when India goes up against the United States for Gold in the Beijing olympics.

Hypos are so convenient.

Well, at least I can rekindle my desi national pride when I cheer for M.S. Bhoothalingam, that new female weightlifting champion when she goes up against some Uzbek powerlifter!
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
jasepl
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RE: Indian/US Dual Citizenship

Wed Nov 17, 2004 4:32 am

But now I get to feel conflicted when India goes up against the United States for Gold in the Beijing olympics.

LOL! I wouldn't hold my breath...


Well, at least I can rekindle my desi national pride when I cheer for M.S. Bhoothalingam, that new female weightlifting champion when she goes up against some Uzbek powerlifter!

Why bother? (S)He'll prolly be disqualified for having ingested too much testosterone anyway! And then she'll blame her trainer, who will blame the coach, who will blame the manager, who will blame the chef d'equipe, who will blame Sunil Dutt, who willl blame...
 
mdsh00
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RE: Indian/US Dual Citizenship

Wed Nov 17, 2004 4:58 am

So this will apply to NRIs born outside of India as well right? And will dual citizens be able to apply for an Indian passport?

Hell yeah this sounds a lot better than having to express mail my US passport to SFO to get an Indian visa!
"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
 
xpat
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RE: Indian/US Dual Citizenship

Wed Nov 17, 2004 4:58 am

Female wrestler named BoothaLINGAM? Wouldn't BoothaYONI be more appropriate? I know, I know that was a pathetic joke.
The only thing we have to fear is the sky falling on our heads. -Asterix
 
jaysit
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RE: Indian/US Dual Citizenship

Wed Nov 17, 2004 5:08 am

"Hell yeah this sounds a lot better than having to express mail my US passport to SFO to get an Indian visa!"

Get a ten year visa. Its $ only 100 or so, and believe it or not, the Indian Embassy can turn your passport with attached visa around in less than 24 hours.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
jasepl
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RE: Indian/US Dual Citizenship

Wed Nov 17, 2004 5:14 am

It is impressive how efficient the Government can be abroad. I had to get my passport renewed in France a few years ago. I went in around noon and filled out the form at the embassy and left for lunch. When I got back from lunch around 2, it was ready!
 
jaysit
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RE: Indian/US Dual Citizenship

Wed Nov 17, 2004 5:17 am

Those Indian visa offices may look grungy (the one here in DC looks and smells like a bad Indian restaurant), but those aunties working behind the counter can be mighty efficient.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
B747-437B
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RE: Indian/US Dual Citizenship

Wed Nov 17, 2004 6:02 am

I've dealt with Indian Consulates around the world for various reasons and with the exception of San Francisco (who are the biggest pricks I have ever dealt with bar none), they have all been fantastic.

My favorite of course is Toronto who not only send out monthly email newsletters to all Indians living in their jurisdiction, but also have customer service down to a science. I have never waited longer than the next business day for a reply to an emailed query. They actually take the notion of consular protection seriously as well unlike most other Indian missions and have a "duty officer's mobile phone" that can be reached 24/7 in case of any trouble with the law that may require their intervention. Never had to use it (yet), but its programmed onto my YYZ mobile in case I ever do.

London is a close second thanks to their ability to turn around a new passport in mere hours. I needed an urgent passport renewal and wound up at India House around 1pm after a delayed flight arrival. Even though they were officially closed, they rustled up a consular officer who managed to have my new passport ready within hours - just in time for an early morning flight the next day.

I've heard only good things about New York and Houston as well, but haven't had to use their services. San Francisco on the other hand, oh boy. I have rarely been so insulted as when I was denied service there as an Indian citizen because my address was in Georgia so didn't fall under their jurisdiction. The bitch refused to even listen to my concerns or tell me who to contact instead - just simply pointed to a sign giving a list of states that San Fran served and asking me to leave if I didn't live in one of those. That was what eventually prompted the rush to London for the passport renewal.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
B747-437B
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RE: Indian/US Dual Citizenship

Wed Nov 17, 2004 6:15 am

So this will apply to NRIs born outside of India as well right?

An NRI is already a citizen of India, so I'm not sure what your question is unless you are confusing an NRI (Non Resident Indian) with a PIO (Person of Indian Origin).

An NRI is specifically defined by the Ministry of Finance as a "citizen of India who has been present in India in the previous year for no more than 182 days".

A PIO is specifically defined by the Ministry of External Affairs as "a foreign citizen (or spouse of a foreign citizen properly qualified) not being a citizen of Pakistan or Bangladesh who has at any time held an Indian passport or either of his/her parents or grand parents or great grand parents was born in and permanently resident in India as defined in the Government of India Act, 1935 and other territories that became part of India thereafter provided neither was at any time a citizen of Pakistan or Bangladesh".

Anyone born outside of India to parents of Indian origin as far back as four generations is entitled to PIO status. NRI status is only available to citizens of India who maintain their citizenship.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
mdsh00
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RE: Indian/US Dual Citizenship

Wed Nov 17, 2004 6:29 am

Sean,
Thanks for the definitions, that would make me a PIO then. However according to this, my parents would also be considered PIOs since they have been US citizens since the early 1980s. Seems that people on both sides get the two terms confused since everyone just calls us NRIs when we are in India.  Smile

Jay,
My family usually gets the ten-year visa, but like sean just said...

with the exception of San Francisco (who are the biggest pricks I have ever dealt with bar none)

Especially, living in LA makes it a pain in the ass because simply mailing it out...even overnight delivery won't guarantee that it will be done faster. The consulate comes down to Southern California once a month but they should consider perhaps having a more permanent presence here since waiting surrounded by maaji's isn't my idea of a good time.
"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
 
jasepl
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RE: Indian/US Dual Citizenship

Wed Nov 17, 2004 6:36 am

Mdsh00,

Effectively, no one in your family is Indian. You're all American (of Indian origin, of course!) and, in theory, won't be treated any differently from John Doe, unless you get a PIO card or the retarded Overseas Citizenship dealie.


It is impressive how efficient the Government can be abroad.

To be fair, the Government can be mighty efficient at home as well. I renewed my passport earlier this year in Bombay and it took just 4 days. And I didn't even have to go to the Passport Office - they give you a "tracking number" so you can track your application on the Internet and it's delivered by Skypak or Blue Dart. Pretty amazing, considering the way things used to be!
 
xpat
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RE: Indian/US Dual Citizenship

Wed Nov 17, 2004 6:52 am

DC is not too shabby either. Last year I applied for and received my Indian visa within 5 business days, along with my Indian passport stamped with VOID all over (via USPS). My brother dropped his passport off in the morning and was able to pick it up by 4pm the same day. Pretty impressive.
The only thing we have to fear is the sky falling on our heads. -Asterix
 
Springbok747
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RE: Indian/US Dual Citizenship

Wed Nov 17, 2004 7:01 am

The Indian consulate in Melbourne, Oz is amazingly efficient!! When I applied for a visa to go to India with my Oz passport...they sent it back in just 1 day!! Wow..amazing, I was really impressed. But..I guess the fun starts the moment we end up in that long queue at Mumbai immigration..  Laugh out loud
אני תומך בישראל
 
mdsh00
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RE: Indian/US Dual Citizenship

Wed Nov 17, 2004 7:18 am

Effectively, no one in your family is Indian.
Interesting isn't it? I'd understand myself since I wasn't born in India, but my parents.

You're all American (of Indian origin, of course!) and, in theory, won't be treated any differently from John Doe, unless you get a PIO card or the retarded Overseas Citizenship dealie.

Ehh, no need. Like someone else here said, friends and family take care of all of the accomodations  Smile so dealing with customs at the airport is usually the only place we end up dealing with the GOI...thank God!
"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
 
jasepl
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RE: Indian/US Dual Citizenship

Wed Nov 17, 2004 7:37 am

I'd understand myself since I wasn't born in India, but my parents.

Well, they gave that up when they took American citizenship. That's our law.
If they were Italian before becoming American, however, they would still have their Italian citizenship a la Sonia Gandhi, because that's how the law works there. You can't usually give up or lose Italian citizenship, no matter what.


Ehh, no need. Like someone else here said, friends and family take care of all of the accomodations so dealing with customs at the airport is usually the only place we end up dealing with the GOI...thank God!

Good answer! I can't possibly see the advantage of anyone wanting the half-assed Overseas Citizenship, unless one planned to live here or something similar.

[Edited 2004-11-16 23:41:39]
 
mdsh00
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RE: Indian/US Dual Citizenship

Wed Nov 17, 2004 11:04 am

Good answer! I can't possibly see the advantage of anyone wanting the half-assed Overseas Citizenship, unless one planned to live here or something similar.

I think it's useful when it comes to property rights isn't it? I'm not sure on what the other benefits would be.
"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
 
trvyyz
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RE: Indian/US Dual Citizenship

Wed Nov 17, 2004 11:29 am

I think it's useful when it comes to property rights isn't it?
Isn't it already covered when you get the PIO card?

I fail to see the difference between PIO and overseas Citizenship. I don't think that the latter provides any additional rights over the former. It's what I gather, but somebody who knows about it could explain more.

I have a specific question: Is the overseas ie, dual Citizen eligible for employment in a State government department ie, through PSC? Eventhough it is a remote possibility.

About the voting:
Who's going to fly to Vote anyways? 1% ?

 
PPGMD
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RE: Indian/US Dual Citizenship

Wed Nov 17, 2004 11:57 am

Also, I suspect this isn't really full citizenship, but some sort of half measure the BJP came up with to patao their Pravasi Bhartiyas.

Actually it can't be full citizenship and be legal in the US. US immigration law prohibits people to accept citizenship of another country while keeping American citizenship. There are loop holes around it since they acknowledge that some countries give citizenship to any person that has family that were citizens.
At worst, you screw up and die.
 
jaysit
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RE: Indian/US Dual Citizenship

Wed Nov 17, 2004 12:23 pm

Actually it can't be full citizenship and be legal in the US. US immigration law prohibits people to accept citizenship of another country while keeping American citizenship.

The United States -- officially deplores dual citizenship by virtue of the oath of allegiance taken which states in part:
"I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state or sovereignty."

However, there is no statutory or legislative authority that prohibits it, nor is there a rule that interprest the oath. In effect, if you are a US citizen residing on US soil, you are under US law. You can't run away and say, for example, that you're a Canadian.

Thus, the US pretty much tolerates it.

Virtually all European countries allow dual citizenship, and thus most recent US citizens of Irish descent are also Irish nationals. Ditto for Mexico.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
PPGMD
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RE: Indian/US Dual Citizenship

Wed Nov 17, 2004 12:37 pm

That renouncement is formal, and the applicant is supposed to tell the country that he was formally a citizen of to revoke his citizenship. It's not recognized by some countries (ie once a citizen, always a citizen), nor does the US check on it. It's done on the honor system.

You are also not supposed to swear allegiance after you are a citizen, whether naturalized or by birth, once again honor system.

The only completely legal (as far as the US is concerned) are minors that hold dual citizenship.

Dual citizenships are only a big deal if the other country requires military service, which is against the law, and you can get prosecuted (to have you citizenship revoked, and even for treason if it was directly against the US).
At worst, you screw up and die.
 
jaysit
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RE: Indian/US Dual Citizenship

Wed Nov 17, 2004 12:49 pm

You are also not supposed to swear allegiance after you are a citizen, whether naturalized or by birth, once again honor system.


True.

And the Indian government has apparently taken this into consideration. No oath of allegiance is required, and no voting rights will be conferred. In effect, the act of conferring dual citizenship to certain PIOs (done as it has with full knowledge of it by the US), is basically a touchy-feely measure for overseas Indians to prescribe to the "Once an Indian, always an Indian" notion. And why not? And the legislation is cleverly crafted - it says that the GOI is "conferring" Indian citizenship" not that PIOs are "obtaining citizenship" of India. As the GOI crafted this with its 2 million Indian Americans in mind, India's legal minds did a pretty thorough job of the legal ramifications.

Its all legalese, but we're in the realm of the law here, so its no surprise.

Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
jasepl
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RE: Indian/US Dual Citizenship

Wed Nov 17, 2004 1:11 pm

I think it's useful when it comes to property rights isn't it? I'm not sure on what the other benefits would be.

None, as far as I know. Also, I think the property rights thing is a misconception. There's loads of "foreigners" who haven't lost their properties or have bought property after renouncing Indian citizenship. I know a couple of people who never were Indian to start with, but still faced no obstacles... So what purpose it serves defeats me!
 
IndianGuy
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RE: Indian/US Dual Citizenship

Wed Nov 17, 2004 4:59 pm

Dual citizenship? What does that mean? Either you are an Indian or a American (or a Bandra Boy, a different sub-category right Jase?  Laugh out loud). I mean make up your mind people!!


The dual citizenship - if it ever comes - will probably not entitle you to vote.

and rightly so! Will someone settled in Canada be able to understand the situation at home and then make a choice? I think even people who have stayed abroad for 12 months or more should have their voting privileges taken away. These should be restored only after he has becomes a resident again and stays for atleast 1 year. India has no need for these narrow-minded Umrikaa returned pseudo-patriots.

-Roy
 
trvyyz
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RE: Indian/US Dual Citizenship

Wed Nov 17, 2004 9:14 pm

India has no need for these narrow-minded Umrikaa returned pseudo-patriots.

Who is a patriot? Your aviation minister or phoolan devi? or somebody who wants to build a masjid or temple?
Do you think most of the resident Indians are patriots?


If you stay in India for more than one year it does make you a patriot.
 
mdsh00
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RE: Indian/US Dual Citizenship

Thu Nov 18, 2004 3:05 am

Who is a patriot? Your aviation minister or phoolan devi? or somebody who wants to build a masjid or temple? Do you think most of the resident Indians are patriots?

That is a very good point!
"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
 
jaysit
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RE: Indian/US Dual Citizenship

Thu Nov 18, 2004 3:24 am

If you stay in India for more than one year it does make you a patriot.

Please.

Anyone who makes the annual pilgrimage back to India, puts up with Mumbai airport, and still comes back to India year after year like one of those migratory whooping cranes is a patriot. Most of these people could be vacationing in Martinique and they still dole out $ 1200, put up with a 22 hour flight, and then make a hike to Jullunder or Jabalpur laden with bags of gifts.

Frankly, I don't get all misty eyed when I hear Jana Gana Manaa or the Star Spangled Banner (and even less so the Greek Hynn to Liberty - my never used Greek passport is a result of my Mom's greek ancestry), so if I don't meet the standards of a Desh Bhakht, I really don't care. I'm not about to put vibhuti on my forehead, wear a polyester safari suit like some paunchy GOI official and develop a fondness for Govinda to meet some bizarre standard of Indian-ness.

And who is to say that Bandra is any less Indian than say Patna or some parched village in Andhra? If those Biharis had their way, they'd be on the first train to Bandra.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
jasepl
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RE: Indian/US Dual Citizenship

Fri Nov 19, 2004 7:57 am

Exactly. What's a passport but a bit of paper anyway? Hell! What is patriotism?

As perfectly happy as I am (touch wood!) with the way things are right now, if the country exploded tomorrow, I’d just move. Whilst I do care about India, I don't care at the same time... I don’t care about citizenship, I don’t care about patriotism. And I certainly don’t care about religion or God or any of those things. I do care about friendship, family ties and romantic love. Those are the things I believe in. How does the rest of it matter?

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