avt007
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Canadians- Missile Shield, Or Not?

Thu Nov 18, 2004 6:32 am

I'd like to know how my fellow Canucks feel about the missile shield issue. I'll start it off- The Americans have managed to piss off a large portion of the planet, then they overstate the threat from assorted countries to keep the military budget up, and to keep employment up in various governors states, and when they dream up another BS scheme like the Star Wars plan, they start pressuring Canada to go in on it and share the cost! Our current idiot defence minister is said to be a proponent of the idea. Personally I'd be furious if those idiots in Ottawa cave in and spend our tax dollars on this garbage. We are running a budget surplus for once, while the US deficit themselves into oblivion, and this is the last thing we need to waste money on. Thoughts?
 
Qb001
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RE: Canadians- Missile Shield, Or Not?

Thu Nov 18, 2004 8:58 am

I'm opposed to Canada taking part in this program for three reasons.

First, this program would have been of absolutely no help whatsoever in preventing the 9/11 attack, where exactos were the main weapon - aside the planes. So why spend billion of dollars of this program, when that money could be much better used in reinforcing securities at airports, ports and customs around the USA ? It just doesn't make any sense.

Second, this technology is bound to fail. If it can stop one missile, which very iffy in the first place, it couldn't do a lot against 10 missiles shot at once. This system is easily going to be overwhelm. Already, Russia has announced its intent to boost its nuclear weapons capacity in answer to this shield.

Third, this program gives the Americans a false sense of security, which only reinforces the drive to isolate themselves from the rest of the world. This world is a much safer and a much better place with a positive involvement of the USA in improving security, progress and prosperity through the use of diplomacy.

This program is a total waste of money.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
 
skysurfer
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RE: Canadians- Missile Shield, Or Not?

Thu Nov 18, 2004 10:14 am

Nobody wants to attack Canada, so why open ourselves up to attacks by cost/risk sharing with the US? IMHO the damn shield isn't even needed.....why attack from space when you can just attack from home soil (9/11)? The idea of attacking with ballistic missiles is to me pretty much obsolete, because any country knows that if they launch one against the states then they can expect quite a few to be fired back. I think a 'dirty bomb' is more likely to be used against America than a missile attack is, and seeing as so much uranium/plutonium is unaccounted for from the former CIS then you can bet that some of it has fallen into hands of ill repute. I just think bush is a war monger...he's like a kid with a can of RAID wasp killer, only problem is that one day a bunch of wasps get through and sting the hell out of him. Stay out of area's that don't concern you, let the UN step in and handle it and you won't have to worry as much about defending your own country form pissed off ppl. But getting back to the original topic (lol), I believe Canada should stay out of the program........the lumbar and beef issue should guarantee that i would hope.

Cheers

ps....i'm not anti america, i just strongly disagree with alot of what the present governemnt is saying and doing, that's all. The above is just my opinion, not a blast at everyone.  Smile

[Edited 2004-11-18 02:16:43]
In the dark you can't see ugly, but you can feel fat
 
L-188
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RE: Canadians- Missile Shield, Or Not?

Thu Nov 18, 2004 10:18 am

We did.

Signed the United States Congress 1812

OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
StarAC17
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RE: Canadians- Missile Shield, Or Not?

Thu Nov 18, 2004 10:32 am

And we won Big grin

filler
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L-188
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RE: Canadians- Missile Shield, Or Not?

Thu Nov 18, 2004 11:10 am

Funny, I could have sworn you got your arses kicked at the Battle of New Orleans.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Canadians- Missile Shield, Or Not?

Thu Nov 18, 2004 11:53 am

Canada's future lies with the US. We should support this US peace initiative.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Canadians- Missile Shield, Or Not?

Thu Nov 18, 2004 12:02 pm

Take my word for it... if missile defense comes your way, cut and flipin run.

The most cost effective way to get a MD system would be to wait until we've paid out the ass to prove, go and buy the missiles under liscense, then set-up a bootleg feed of our intercept radars in Alaska... and you're set. If I can do it with my neighborh's dish network, it can't be that hard  Big grin


Use the left over money to pay for some more prescription drugs  Big thumbs up
 
StarAC17
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RE: Canadians- Missile Shield, Or Not?

Thu Nov 18, 2004 12:18 pm

Canada's future lies with the US. We should support this US peace initiative.

While you are correct Neil would you accept a tax hike to pay for it because most Canadians I know wouldn't.
Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
 
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yyz717
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RE: Canadians- Missile Shield, Or Not?

Thu Nov 18, 2004 12:26 pm

While you are correct Neil would you accept a tax hike to pay for it because most Canadians I know wouldn't.

We could reduce the equalization payments to the 8 poor provinces. This would more than cover any contribution needed to this US peace initiaitive.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
B747-437B
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RE: Canadians- Missile Shield, Or Not?

Thu Nov 18, 2004 1:05 pm

I'm sure Canadians would be all in full support of this project if it involved buying a 30-year old second-hand missile shield from the Brits. Big grin

Canada has de-facto handed over its national defence responsibility to the United States already. It is only right that the Canadian taxpayer stops feeding at the American trough and contributes Canada's fair share of the costs involved.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
jaysit
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RE: Canadians- Missile Shield, Or Not?

Thu Nov 18, 2004 1:12 pm

So who's about to attack Canada?




Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
CanadianNorth
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RE: Canadians- Missile Shield, Or Not?

Thu Nov 18, 2004 1:15 pm

Canada should stay out of it. With all the weapons around, humans already have enough weapons to blow up our planet a good 5 times over, why the hell should we waste our money making more?!? It just doesn't make sence to me, and I feel theres much better things to spend tax money on.





CanadianNorth
What could possibly go wrong?
 
jaysit
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RE: Canadians- Missile Shield, Or Not?

Thu Nov 18, 2004 1:32 pm

And its cheaper and safer to play saint to the US's cowboy.

No one's about to attack Canada based on that strategy.

And if, for some reason, some fanatic does attack Canada, well, there is always the US to fall back on.



Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Canadians- Missile Shield, Or Not?

Thu Nov 18, 2004 1:52 pm

Canada has de-facto handed over its national defence responsibility to the United States already. It is only right that the Canadian taxpayer stops feeding at the American trough and contributes Canada's fair share of the costs involved.

It is indeed time Canada paid its fair share of its own defense.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
avt007
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RE: Canadians- Missile Shield, Or Not?

Thu Nov 18, 2004 1:53 pm

"Peace initiative"? What are you talking about? Hiding behind a wall is not a peace initiative. And once B747 shows his total lack of sense and understanding of the issue. If your neighbour is a gangster, and he is worried his enemies might attack the neighbourhood, why should you have to pay for it? I'll be damned if my tax dollars are going to help soothe the paranoia of the USA.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Canadians- Missile Shield, Or Not?

Thu Nov 18, 2004 1:58 pm

The US is a benign superpower who has always protected fellow allies and democracies. The US is our protector and saviour. Any missile shield to protect the US will also protect Canada.

Canada should confirm its intent to be a good economic partner to the US and pony up to the missile shield table.



I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
avt007
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RE: Canadians- Missile Shield, Or Not?

Thu Nov 18, 2004 2:12 pm

"The US is a benign superpower who has always protected fellow allies and democracies" Agreed.
"The US is our protector and saviour." That's going overboard a little bit. They have never "saved" us from anyone, and as for protecting us (from the Soviets, presumably) that was primarily done in self interest, and any danger we faced was by geographical accident, i.e. living next door.
"Any missile shield to protect the US will also protect Canada". From what, exactly? I am convinced that the chances of anyone attacking the US with a ballistic missile is zero. Nada. So why waste billions pissing away our Canadian money on their paranoia?
"Canada should confirm its intent to be a good economic partner to the US and pony up to the missile shield table." What does one have to do with the other? Unless, of course they have a hissy fit and slap some tariffs on us because we won't play in their game...........
I still haven't heard any sound arguments either for the shield itself, (An issue American citizens ought to be discussing, given your deficit), or why we should have anything to do with it.
 
B747-437B
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RE: Canadians- Missile Shield, Or Not?

Thu Nov 18, 2004 2:23 pm

They have never "saved" us from anyone

How short your memory is. Millions of young American men gave their lives in the 1940s to save Canada from the Nazis. If it wasn't for the United States you would be speaking German today. And what did they get in return? A country that is too snooty to thank them for it but always willing to take more charity on military issues.

An issue American citizens ought to be discussing, given your deficit

American citizens are smart enough to realize that some things are more important than running a deficit, and those include freedom and doing what is right in the world. While Canada stood by and self-righteously pleaded for other solutions, American citizens were dying in Vietnam and in Iraq to keep Canada safe from evil regimes. If you think that Saddam would not have used his WMDs against Canada simply because Chretien was too much of a pussy to stand up to him, you are living in a fools paradise.

The US is a benign superpower who has always protected fellow allies and democracies

While this statement may be true at face value, the concepts of "ally" and "democracy" have often been mutually exclusive in US foreign policy over the last few decades.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
avt007
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RE: Canadians- Missile Shield, Or Not?

Thu Nov 18, 2004 2:54 pm

Oh my God- your grasp of history is right up there with economics. Americans did not die to save Canada, which was never threatened with invasion or attack. Canada fought in WWII to save others, as did the States, after a 2 year waiting period.As for taking "charity" is the US going to pay every dime of this so called shield? Not likely. They'll stick us for the cost, so much for charity. And neither Germany, Vietnam, Iraq, nor North Korea have ever threatened Canada, so the idea of Americans dying to protect us is pure BS.
 
L-188
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RE: Canadians- Missile Shield, Or Not?

Thu Nov 18, 2004 2:59 pm

Avt007, I think I need to check you history of the Aleutian Campaign. The Japanese could very easily have ended up in BC if it hadn't had been fought.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
SlamClick
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RE: Canadians- Missile Shield, Or Not?

Thu Nov 18, 2004 3:07 pm

Avt007 I think your statement that Canada "was never threatened with invasion or attack" is a bit naive. Attack, probably not. Had the Axis somehow prevailed during WW II, and taken over the US, it is not likely that they would have spared Canada. I don't think at that point it would have required much of an invasion as Canada would, by that time, have pretty well expended its military in Europe, but you would have been occupied, make no mistake about that.

As to the missile shield, this unsolicited advice from south of the border:

Don't bother.

  • If missiles are ever again going to be a primary threat there will be time to develop defenses.


  • I don't think any enemy of the USA would mistake Canada for a friend of the USA. Especially if you go ahead with that monument to our draft-dodgers. Especially too, if they read this forum.


  • If the attack comes from any direction other than from across OUR borders, the invaders will probably get lost. (think Napoleon in Russia)


  • Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
     
    777236ER
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    RE: Canadians- Missile Shield, Or Not?

    Thu Nov 18, 2004 7:45 pm

    Given the latest Scientific American says the missile defense shield is useless, and the $80 billion already spent on it is completely wasted, perhaps thought should be given as to how exactly the shield would work?
    Your bone's got a little machine
     
    Arsenal@LHR
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    RE: Canadians- Missile Shield, Or Not?

    Thu Nov 18, 2004 8:02 pm

    I'm finding it a hard time thinking of a country dumb enough to lob ICBM's on the US. North Korea? These guys might be crazy, but their not stupid enought to nuke someone without blatant provocation. It smells like another fantasy plan by the neo-cons, and if i were Canadian, i'd want absolutely nothing to do with it.

    In Arsene we trust!!
     
    JGPH1A
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    RE: Canadians- Missile Shield, Or Not?

    Thu Nov 18, 2004 10:18 pm

    Better hope this multi-squillion dollar anti-nuke system works on suitcases or freight containers as well, because that's probably how the bomb is going to reach America. Canada and the UK (who are also implicated) should have nothing to do with this.
    Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
     
    airplay
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    RE: Canadians- Missile Shield, Or Not?

    Thu Nov 18, 2004 11:14 pm

    Reading this thread is better than watching the Comedy Channel....

    Canada's future lies with the US. We should support this US peace initiative.

    HAHA...

    Canada has de-facto handed over its national defence responsibility to the United States already. It is only right that the Canadian taxpayer stops feeding at the American trough and contributes Canada's fair share of the costs involved.

    HAHAHA...

    The US is a benign superpower who has always protected fellow allies and democracies. The US is our protector and saviour. Any missile shield to protect the US will also protect Canada.

    HAHAHAHA!

    How short your memory is. Millions of young American men gave their lives in the 1940s to save Canada from the Nazis. If it wasn't for the United States you would be speaking German today. And what did they get in return? A country that is too snooty to thank them for it but always willing to take more charity on military issues.

    BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

    Avt007, I think I need to check you history of the Aleutian Campaign. The Japanese could very easily have ended up in BC if it hadn't had been fought.

    Hehe...I didn't realize that the Japanese spoke German....

    B747-437B, buy a history book and read. Then get yourself an atlas and find out where exactly Canada is. Here's a hint. Its not wedged between France and Germany. Then come back and comment.

    YYZ717, buy some nail polish remover and try to have your lips removed from Bush's ass.

    L-188, but one of those travel books about Japan and learn what language they speak.

    The US, this "benign" superpower under Bush is one the biggest threats to peace in the history of the world. If the US is so involved in saving Canada from the nasties in the world, then tell me why THEY are the ones under attack all the time.

    It was the WTC that got bombed and eventually flattened. It was a US warship that got hit by terrorists. It was US army barracks that got bombed. Canada has been there to offer whatever support we could during the US's military fiascos but let's remember who is the target. Not us. We just don't piss anyone off like the US does. We chose diplomacy over intimidation and we NEVER bring our association with the US to the table in international negotiation.

    By the way, Canadians fought not only in global conflicts like WWI and WWII, but also Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan etc etc.

    We drew the line at the unilateral invasion of Iraq because we understand the value in honoring our commitments to the UN and other international agreements. The Bush administration joins some other past presidents in waging war for no good reason and I am proud that Canada has distanced itself from this lunatic.


     
    Boeing757/767
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    RE: Canadians- Missile Shield, Or Not?

    Thu Nov 18, 2004 11:28 pm

    B747-437B,

    Your comment has been addressed but I'd like to point out that there are hundreds of dead Canadian soldiers in Normandy and other places -- they fought right there with the Americans and Brits.

    Your comment was the most naive I've seen on here in a while. Oh, wait, so was your comment that Americans died in Vietnam to keep Canada safe. What utter horsecrap. Neither Vietnam nor Iraq were a threat to Canada -- or the U.S. for that matter.
    Free-thinking, left-leaning secularist
     
    L410Turbolet
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    RE: Canadians- Missile Shield, Or Not?

    Thu Nov 18, 2004 11:41 pm

    So who's about to attack Canada?

    Kyle's mom. Big grin
     
    AlekToronto
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    RE: Canadians- Missile Shield, Or Not?

    Fri Nov 19, 2004 12:19 am

    I have really enjoyed this topic..Again it proves that everyone has their opinion and everyone thinks they are right...Why are people so loath to hear another sides opinion and just automatically assume that their side is right??? People are people and people make mistakes.

    My opinion is that this Shield is going to cost a lot of money and both the US and Canada seriously need to analyze the cost/benefit ratio of this proposal before anything is decided. I am not necessarily against it if it is proved that it is to our benefit..Canada is a sovereign country and should look out for OUR interests...just like the US does. We should not blindly just follow the US.

    LOVE the personal attacks..have you guys all met?
    cheers
    Alek
     
    airplay
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    RE: Canadians- Missile Shield, Or Not?

    Fri Nov 19, 2004 1:09 am

    Canada is a sovereign country and should look out for OUR interests...just like the US does. We should not blindly just follow the US.

    I agree that we should look out for our intersts, but I think that in doing so, we should take make a serious effort to comply with our international agreements. We don't want our reputation tarnished by continuously bypassing agreements as we see fit.

    LOVE the personal attacks..have you guys all met?

    I'm not convinced that all of the opinions expressed here are genuine. In my opinion, many statements are engineered to provoke conflict. I try not to get sucked in, but occasionally the rhetoric is so thick its hard to ignore...
     
    jaysit
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    RE: Canadians- Missile Shield, Or Not?

    Fri Nov 19, 2004 1:18 am

    None of you answer the question of who is about to attack Canada and with what?

    Which rogue country has long range missiles to reach Canadian shores?
    Which nuclear nation today would want to attack Canada? India? Israel? China? Russian? Why would they?
    Why would anyone want to attack Canada?

    If you think that Saddam would not have used his WMDs against Canada simply because Chretien was too much of a pussy to stand up to him, you are living in a fools paradise.?

    What WMDs?
    Atheism is Myth Understood.
     
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    yyz717
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    RE: Canadians- Missile Shield, Or Not?

    Fri Nov 19, 2004 1:26 am

    We drew the line at the unilateral invasion of Iraq because we understand the value in honoring our commitments to the UN and other international agreements.

    No. We drew the line at freeing Iraq because Chretien was a strident left-wing anti-American. Hence, Canada was in de facto support of Saddam Hussein.



    I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
     
    peterpuck
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    RE: Canadians- Missile Shield, Or Not?

    Fri Nov 19, 2004 1:50 am

    Canada was in both world wars before the U.S. We stand up to real aggression when we need to. (Iraq was not necessary) The only time we were ever attacked was by the United States. (L-188...the Battle of New Orleans was after the war ended) If we spend 1 dollar on a missile shield, our government is on crack.
     
    airplay
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    RE: Canadians- Missile Shield, Or Not?

    Fri Nov 19, 2004 2:17 am

    No. We drew the line at freeing Iraq because Chretien was a strident left-wing anti-American. Hence, Canada was in de facto support of Saddam Hussein.

    What colour is the sky in your world YYZ717?
     
    XNV
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    RE: Canadians- Missile Shield, Or Not?

    Fri Nov 19, 2004 2:18 am

    Fear mongering.

    There are much easier and secretive ways to attack than lobbing a missile across the pond - as someone said in this forum it is easier to ship a bomb in a container ship into the heart of some port.

    1. What world powers have the capability to launch nuclear missiles at the USA?

    2. Which of these countries is really a threat?

    3. If the purpose of this missile defense shield is to blow up bombs before reaching the USA, doesn't that mean us Canadians will be victim to the fallout? I think Canada should help out the USA if it is under attack, but standing in the way to take the brunt of the assault is another thing. We are on the great circle route from just about everywhere overseas to the US.

    Touting this missile shield as a "peace initiative" is beyond ironic. A peace initiaitive is sending workers, food, and medical supplies to war-torn regions. A peace initiative is using lines of diplomacy to their fullest to prevent loss of life and suffering. A peace initiative is providing education and literacy to those who cannot afford it. Canada has a well-deserved international reputation for peace and diplomacy. Do we really need to relive the cold war?
     
    jaysit
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    RE: Canadians- Missile Shield, Or Not?

    Fri Nov 19, 2004 2:38 am

    It appears that Canada is moving towards establishing itself as a quasi-Switzerland of North America - relatively neutral but still a member of NATO. A new paradigm if you must, in which it is attempting to straddle the divide between the US and the EU - supportive of NATO, but unwilling to toe the line with the US on every militaristic endeavor. Yes on Bosnia and Iraq I; no on Iraq II.

    Canada has no enemies and none of the nuclear weapon owning countries are about to attack Canada.
    Atheism is Myth Understood.
     
    avt007
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    RE: Canadians- Missile Shield, Or Not?

    Fri Nov 19, 2004 2:47 am

    Rather than being naive, I`d say I am being realistic. Had Germany managed to invade England, and had they succeeded (two very different things) they`d have become bogged down in a mess very much like Iraq, except the rest of the Allies would still be fighting the Germans from outside, and the Brits from within. Never in a thousand years would they have the capabilities to carry on and invade Newfoundland, let alone Canada or the USA. Absolutely impossible. Same for the Japanese. They were another small nation spread across a vast ocean and incredibly long lines of logistic support, and couldn`t hold onto the Aleutians, which IIRC, were uninhabited or nearly so. How could they possibly threaten a massive continent like North America? Again, impossible. But forget the past for now, focus on the future. Will ballistic missiles be a credible threat? Will the shield work? Should Canada, who is not a target, waste the money on the very distant possibility of an attack? I say no. Now if the US is really worried about this, I'm sure we can lease them some land to base their defence systems on for a reasonable price. If they are not willing to fund every penny of this system, then I guess they aren't that worried. But to spend our money? No way.
     
    DIJKKIJK
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    RE: Canadians- Missile Shield, Or Not?

    Fri Nov 19, 2004 2:57 am

    Talking about US missile shields, I can't think of one country which would want to attack the US with missiles. For all its posturing, North Korea wouldn't even think about it.

    Unless Osama Bin Ladin takes over some country with missile capabilities, like say.....Pakistan or Iran, even so he'll probably target Israel first.
    Never argue with idiots. They will bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience.
     
    L-188
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    RE: Canadians- Missile Shield, Or Not?

    Fri Nov 19, 2004 7:10 am

    Who was talking about Germany, Airplay.

    The Aleutian Campaign was about Japan.

    If memory serves a couple of Jap Subs did manage to shell BC during the early days of the war too.
    OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
     
    avt007
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    RE: Canadians- Missile Shield, Or Not?

    Fri Nov 19, 2004 11:00 am

    If memory serves, the only direct attack on North America was by a single Japanese sub which fired a few shells at a lighthouse on Vancouver Island. Sorry, but a few shells do not an invasion make. Also, U boats were active in the St. Lawrence Seaway, but again no threat to the nation.
     
    Qb001
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    RE: Canadians- Missile Shield, Or Not?

    Fri Nov 19, 2004 11:00 am

    If memory serves a couple of Jap Subs did manage to shell BC during the early days of the war too.

    And how a missile shield system is supposed to protect us from submarine-launched torpedoes?
    Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
     
    greaser
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    RE: Canadians- Missile Shield, Or Not?

    Fri Nov 19, 2004 11:16 am

    The United States of North America...
    Souds good!  Big thumbs up
    Now you're really flying
     
    JeffLAS
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    RE: Canadians- Missile Shield, Or Not?

    Fri Nov 19, 2004 11:49 am


    The U.S.A. is one huge Military-Industrial Complex. What a waste.
    " Jazz A-380, you have 2,100 feet from the intersection......Cleared for Take-off"
     
    L-188
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    RE: Canadians- Missile Shield, Or Not?

    Fri Nov 19, 2004 1:38 pm

    If memory serves, the only direct attack on North America was by a single Japanese sub which fired a few shells at a lighthouse on Vancouver Island

    How in 1941 where they going to know that would be the only one?

    And if somebody had seen one of those U-boats in the St Lawence, do you think they would have passed it off as a "non-threat".

    Probably not.......I suspect everybody would have "FREAKED"

    Actually there where several forest fires and a family was killed by fire-bomb carrying balloons. And there where a couple US ports and lighthouses shelled immediately after PH.


    OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
     
    avt007
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    RE: Canadians- Missile Shield, Or Not?

    Sat Nov 20, 2004 2:14 am

    Canada and the US would be far better off taking a fraction of what the shield would cost and spend it helping out the countries that supposedly threaten the US. It saves money, increases security, and promotes world peace! What more do you want?
     
    L-188
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    RE: Canadians- Missile Shield, Or Not?

    Sun Nov 21, 2004 1:43 pm

    (L-188...the Battle of New Orleans was after the war ended)

    I knew that.

    The soldiers that actually fought it didn't though.
    OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.

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