L410Turbolet
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Future Of Ukraine Decided On The Streets Of Kiev?

Tue Nov 23, 2004 7:41 am

The future of Ukraine is at stake. According to Reuters there were over 100.000 people in Kiev protesting the results of fraudulent presidential elections in Ukraine, fearing repression from the security forces.
The race between the pro-European contender Yushchenko and pro-Russian candidate Viktor Yanukovych, backed both by current president of Ukraine as well as by Putin and his spin doctors, will determine the orientation of Ukraine for many years on. A very clear divide between Ukrainian-speaking western parts of Ukraine, which is more nationalistic and pro-independence and eastrn Russian-speaking regions is more than obvious. A widespread efforts to manipulate the elections by the current government was reported by the EU, OCSE, and US-based election observers. The following two sentences published by the BBC describe the situation: "European and U.S. observers called the polls fraudulent -- and large protests were taking place in Kiev.
However, Russian President Vladimir Putin congratulated Yanukovich on his victory in a presidential election, Interfax news agency reported."


Should the pro-Russian candidate prevail in the end, we might witness an effort to ressurect some sort of a new Soviet Union, consisting of Russia, Belarus, Ukraine and Kazakhstan. It would be only a matter of time before other neighboring countries would feel the heat of Russian expansionism once again.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4033475.stm
http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/11/22/ukrainenew/index.html

Ukraine's profile:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/country_profiles/1102303.stm

for those interested in some background info:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4023043.stm
 
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yyz717
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RE: Future Of Ukraine Decided On The Streets Of Kiev?

Tue Nov 23, 2004 7:51 am

The Ukraine has been a massive disappointment since they became independent. Long claiming to be a "European" society held down by the Soviets/Russians, they have had 10+ years to become democratic and capitalist. They have failed miserably. The corruption, poverty, lack of rule of law, lack of local initiative and dictatorship is highly disappointing, especially given that their neighbours the Poles, Hungarians, Czechs etc are becoming more and more prosperous and democratic.

The Ukraine is arguably a lost cause and will remain mired in poverty and corruption for generations to come. Time for the West to turn its back on the Ukraine and ignore it. It's just another 3rd world hell hole.



I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
L.1011
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RE: Future Of Ukraine Decided On The Streets Of Kiev?

Tue Nov 23, 2004 8:02 am

Perhaps we need to stop observing elections and start running them. Independence is great, and a government that will help the nation is great, but sometimes the west is needed to elect said government in the first place. As to Yyz, I'd hardly call it third world. Good lord.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Future Of Ukraine Decided On The Streets Of Kiev?

Tue Nov 23, 2004 8:10 am

sometimes the west is needed to elect said government in the first place.

The West cannot step in and run things endlessly for other countries. The desire/willingness for the Ukraine to become democratic and prosperous has to come from within. It's up to the Ukrainians.

As to Yyz, I'd hardly call it third world. Good lord.

The poverty in major Ukrainian cities and all rural areas is pronounced. All civil institutions are crumbling and there is little investment or business activity due to continued corruption and a profound lack of business intuition. Since the fall of the Soviet empire, there is no "2nd world" anyway. The Ukraine is certainly not a 1st world or Western nation.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Future Of Ukraine Decided On The Streets Of Kiev?

Tue Nov 23, 2004 8:25 am

Yyz,
sure they wasted a lot of time and missed many opportunities. However, you are forgetting that the starting conditions were completely different from those in i.e. Hungary or over here. They were fuc*ed by the communists and colonized by the Russians for 73 years. SEVENTY years, that's three generations living in misery of tyranny, gulags.
We had communists for 41 years and it's damn hard to get over it. You may not see much difference between 41 and 73 but believe me, it's crucial. When things changed 15 years ago over here in (then)Czechoslovakia, you still had the generation 60 year olds and older, who remembered the "good 'ol times" of standard democracy and prosperity between the world wars and quite a few who remembered the Austria-Hungary times, which despite all negatives set the foundation for the post-WW1 era.
And it is important to have the living memory of how things used to be and how the society worked "back then"
After seventy years, you have no one. Only few, who remember the tsar. There's really nothing to take up to. So no wonder things go slower, because you have a generational divide and huge portion of population "lost". Anyone above 50 is a "dog who (most likely) will not learn the new tricks".
 
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yyz717
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RE: Future Of Ukraine Decided On The Streets Of Kiev?

Tue Nov 23, 2004 8:32 am

They were fuc*ed by the communists and colonized by the Russians for 73 years. SEVENTY years, that's three generations living in misery of tyranny, gulags.

True, but I read somewhere that the Ukraine is the LARGEST nation in over 200 years to be completely ruled by another. WHy were the Ukrainians so weak and not able to break the Russian/Soviet control? 50M Ukrainians could not stand up to Russia while another neighbour Finland wth only 5M people were always able to resist Russian domination. Why are the Ukrainians (as a nation or society) so incapable historically of being strong and independent? Why?

We had communists for 41 years and it's damn hard to get over it. You may not see much difference between 41 and 73 but believe me, it's crucial. When things changed 15 years ago over here in (then)Czechoslovakia, you still had the generation 60 year olds and older,

I see your point L410. Im not sure I agree 100% with it, but it is at least partially plausible.




I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Future Of Ukraine Decided On The Streets Of Kiev?

Tue Nov 23, 2004 9:05 am

The desire/willingness for the Ukraine to become democratic and prosperous has to come from within. It's up to the Ukrainians.

Agreed. Those tens of thousands in the streets just in Kiev prove that.
On the other hand L.1011 has a good point. You have the pro-government dude backed by Putin on one hand. And you can bet your ass his "support" does not stop at taking pictures together or sending his chief spin doctor to help Yanukovych. Think more in terms of secret services messing with the elections, and that sort of stuff.
And on the other hand you have the opposition leader, who enjoys support of the EU, the US, NATO, etc. The problem it's most likely only moral and verbal kind of support.

Have a little read on how the first post-WW2 elections in Italy would have ended up, if the Italians were left "on their own".


Why are the Ukrainians (as a nation or society) so incapable historically of being strong and independent? Why?

Because they share a great deal of common history and common roots way back to 9th century, when their first state called (significantly) Kiev's Russia was formed.
 
prebennorholm
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RE: Future Of Ukraine Decided On The Streets Of Kiev?

Tue Nov 23, 2004 9:30 am

A colleague of mine is a descendant of a family which was ethnically cleaned out of Ukraine in the 30'es. Her fellow family members now live widespread in Poland, Denmark, UK, USA, Australia and elsewhere.

Last year they made a family reunion in Ukraine and organized to meet descendants of not expelled family members, former neighbors etc.

You may think that you just land in Kiev, rent a car and tour around like a tourist. Not so.

But they didn't experience many problems, because the local Ukrainians had organized to pay the mafia to protect the guests against the police.

I thought that I was hearing things, that she wanted to tell that police was paid for protection against mafia.

But I was not hearing things. The explanation was that in Ukraine the mafia and the police are for all practical things the same thing. They only have different bank account numbers.

In a country like this it is difficult to imagine a way forward in the near future.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
shamrock104
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RE: Future Of Ukraine Decided On The Streets Of Kiev?

Tue Nov 23, 2004 9:33 am


For someone who lived in Ukraine for a while, it's really exciting while at the same time dissapointing to see the protests. I think previous post have missed the point. What you have discussed is in the past. The opportunity is now in the hands of the Ukrainian population to change. So, we should support and encourage them, not criticise them. Really, I'm hoping that the protests will remain peacefull, however I have my doubts. Now is a strategic opportunity for Ukraine to re-allign itself and focus on the future, I hope everyone there will realise this and fight for what is true.

Especially I am dissapointed with Russia (although I couldn't expect less from Putin) for accepting the 'declared ukrainian government' result of the election. Of course it is strategic, but it is time for Russia to realise it is a great country, with or without Ukraine.
 
Russophile
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RE: Future Of Ukraine Decided On The Streets Of Kiev?

Tue Nov 23, 2004 9:45 am

According to Reuters there were over 100.000 people in Kiev protesting

HAHA! Even the opposition say there are about 70,000 less than this, and the police put the figure at 10-15,000.

I'll be waiting some days to read more on this, before passing judgement, because at the moment, the OSCE is alleging fraud based merely upon the media favouritism in the run-up to the election.
 
pacificjourney
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RE: Future Of Ukraine Decided On The Streets Of Kiev?

Tue Nov 23, 2004 9:54 am

No, they are alledging fraud in a number of ways, media bias being just one. The most damning is the supposed voter turnout of 96% in Yanukovich strong holds in the south east as opposed to the national average of just 78%. Don't let your obvious preferences blind you too much russophile.

BTW Yyz717 please tell us how many times and where you have been in Ukraine that you are such an expert.
" Help, help ... I'm being oppressed ... "
 
Russophile
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RE: Future Of Ukraine Decided On The Streets Of Kiev?

Tue Nov 23, 2004 10:06 am

Pacificjourney, that is correct, in regards to the 96%. This does need to be investigated. But on the flip-side, have you read in any of the American or European media, allegations by Yanukovich supporters, that there was fraud in western Ukraine, in that Yushchenko supporters were voting twice using false passports and identity papers.

Don't anyone be a fool and think that any fraud perpetrated was done by one side, and one side only. Both sides seem to be guilty of said fraud, except the extent of degree of fraud will take some days to filter out.

As for my own preferences, I would much rather see Yanukovich in power. You need only look at what Ukraine was turned into when Yushchenko was prime minister -- people think Russia under Yeltsin was bad? Ukraine was worse, and has only turned around under Yanukovich.

Also, people, don't put everything on Russia -- Russia this, and Russia that, because frankly, the US and Europe are as much a part of this as Russia is.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Future Of Ukraine Decided On The Streets Of Kiev?

Tue Nov 23, 2004 10:14 am

BTW Yyz717 please tell us how many times and where you have been in Ukraine that you are such an expert.

I've never been to the Ukraine and see no tourist (and certainly no business) reason to do so. I am simply widely read.

As a non-Ukrainian, I call it as I see it in a non-biased way: a corrupt, declining, relatively impoverished corner of the Soviet empire likely destined to muddle along for generations to come. There is no evidence to the contrary.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
pacificjourney
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RE: Future Of Ukraine Decided On The Streets Of Kiev?

Tue Nov 23, 2004 10:22 am

You are out of your mind. Yanukovich is the worst kind of goon imaginable. He was convicted of rape for god's sake, it always reads 'assault' now but it was rape. Plus the 2 other charges he bribed his way out of. Wonder how that record was changed ?

Do you really want the continuation of the current state in Ukraine. The presidents son-in-law openly buys the biggest steel company at a discount, harassment of opposition parties ..... do you really think the status quo is best ?

Your not stupid enough to really believe that the opposition was able to stuff ballots and throw it's weight around like the government has in this election are you ? If you don't want Russia blamed then have them stay the fuck out of other peoples affairs !

I used to think you had an open mind about these things but in this thread you sound like some kind of propagandists, absolutely blind to anything that doesn't fit your story.
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pacificjourney
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RE: Future Of Ukraine Decided On The Streets Of Kiev?

Tue Nov 23, 2004 10:30 am

Yyz717 I assure you that Ukraine is a fantastic place to visit as a tourist (though you might actually have to deal with poor people), business oppurtunites are great (if challenging) and people don't live in poverty.

People are poor, corruption is awful and it's government is the worst that a 'democracy' could throw up but your plan to just give up ignores the very real improvements Ukraine has made and the clear potential it has to do better.

I wonder if our defintions of 'widely read' are a bit different ... Time magazine once a week really doesn't cut it you know.
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yyz717
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RE: Future Of Ukraine Decided On The Streets Of Kiev?

Tue Nov 23, 2004 10:50 am

Yanukovich is the worst kind of goon imaginable. He was convicted of rape for god's sake, it always reads 'assault' now but it was rape.

Ukrainians voted en masse for a convicted rapist? This speaks volumes, unfortunately.

Your plan to just give up ignores the very real improvements Ukraine has made

The Ukraine has not made ANY improvements. It has slid backwards in every socio-economic category since independence from Russia.

I wonder if our defintions of 'widely read' are a bit different ... Time magazine once a week really doesn't cut it you know.

I'm far more widely read than that, and likely you. I challenge you to find ANY contrary stats to my conclusions about the Ukraine.

The Ukraine has been a failure to date as an independent nation. The corrupt election of a convicted rapist this past week will just hasten the free fall.



I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
pacificjourney
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RE: Future Of Ukraine Decided On The Streets Of Kiev?

Tue Nov 23, 2004 11:52 am

"The Ukraine has not made ANY improvements."

Let's hear how well informed someone who would make such a blanket statement really is. It is you that claimed great knowledge now let's hear it. I've only spent a lot of time in Ukraine, have business interests in Ukraine, actually know and speak to Ukrainians ... what would I know.

Surely success or not can only be measured against like examples. Shall we compare Ukraine to Belarus, Moldova, Armenia or Georgia. Firstly, Ukraine is at peace and a functioning if imperfect democracy. Ukraine successfully rid itself of nuclear weapons and is a stable country. These things are nothing in Ontario I'm sure but in that part of the world it means something.

How about that bastion of free speech Russia. Ukraine has an active free press becoming freer while Russia does not and heads in the opposite direction.

Looking west Ukraine has performed poorly compared to Poland, Slovakia etc but I question if that is a fair comparison. As someone has mentioned above, Ukraine had and still has much further to go than those places.

A well read fellow like you will no doubt have the Economist from 3 weeks ago. It told of average increases in per capita GDP of 8 - 11% since 1995 and compared Ukraine favourably compared to Russia in future economic performance.

" Help, help ... I'm being oppressed ... "
 
airplay
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RE: Future Of Ukraine Decided On The Streets Of Kiev?

Tue Nov 23, 2004 12:01 pm

The Ukraine has been a failure to date as an independent nation. The corrupt election of a convicted rapist this past week will just hasten the free fall.

I guess the Urkraine needs George Bush to come and turn the place into a model of democracy...like Iraq is now...

 Smile
 
Russophile
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RE: Future Of Ukraine Decided On The Streets Of Kiev?

Tue Nov 23, 2004 5:35 pm

You are out of your mind. Yanukovich is the worst kind of goon imaginable. He was convicted of rape for god's sake, it always reads 'assault' now but it was rape. Plus the 2 other charges he bribed his way out of. Wonder how that record was changed ?

Correction here. He was at no stage ever convicted of rape.

When he was 15/16, he was sent to prison for "robbery" -- now under the old Soviet system, this would have covered something as small as stealing a lollipop from a child, all the way up to bank robbery, etc. What extent of robbery, I don't know. He was also later sent to prison for an 'assault' (not sexual). It is my understanding that this also occurred whilst he was a juvenile -- not an adult.

This 'rape' -- he was thought to have been amongst a group of other men who were 'suspected' of raping and bashing a woman. This, of course, never made it to court. Why? Who knows. Might have been because of lack of evidence, or it might have been something more sinister. I, and you, do not know this. So it is best to not to speculate on this one, because innocent or guilty, no-one can say.

Do you really want the continuation of the current state in Ukraine. The presidents son-in-law openly buys the biggest steel company at a discount, harassment of opposition parties ..... do you really think the status quo is best ?

Ukraine under Yanukovich has begun to turn around from the disastrous prime-ministership of Yushchenko. It was often said, and mostly rightly-so, that people in Africa were better off than the average Ukrainian under Yushchenko. And yes, both Yushchenko and Yanukovick have questions which need answering in regards to their political past.

Your not stupid enough to really believe that the opposition was able to stuff ballots and throw it's weight around like the government has in this election are you ?

Are you trying to tell me that the opposition of Lushchenko was not responsible for any fraud? I don't think you are that 'stupid' either right?

If you don't want Russia blamed then have them stay the fuck out of other peoples affairs !

As should Europe and America.

I want what is best for Ukraine. Not what is best for Russian, European or American interests in Ukraine.

I used to think you had an open mind about these things but in this thread you sound like some kind of propagandists, absolutely blind to anything that doesn't fit your story.

Propaganda? Actually, I don't think so. I am probably the only one on this thread who would openly admit that both Yushchenko and Yanukovich camps have some answering to do.

Just because I believe that Ukraine would have a better medium-term future as part of an economic (not political) union with Russia, Belarus, Kazakhstan (and also possibly Armenia, Azerbaijan, Kyrgyzstan and Uzbekistan, and to a lesser extent Tajikistan and Turkmenistan), does not mean that I am not able to see what is happening here.

[Edited 2004-11-23 09:39:17]
 
pelican
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RE: Future Of Ukraine Decided On The Streets Of Ki

Tue Nov 23, 2004 6:17 pm

As always Russophile is dreaming of the big Soviet empire. With Yanukovich in lead of the Ukraine a resurge of the SU is possible but with Yushchenko this dream will have not chance to come true. The Sad thing is Putin has the same dream. I'm curious how deep Russia will be involved in the troubles starting now in the Ukraine.

@Yyz717 What could you wish more than ten-thousands or even hundred-thousands of peaceful protestors for a democratic change. You need a little bit more courage to protest in a country like the Ukraine than you need in a free country in the western world.

WHy were the Ukrainians so weak and not able to break the Russian/Soviet control?
You forget the power of Russia, they were able to fight back Napoleon in the 19th century (yes I know the circumstances) who overrun whole Europe. They fought back the Germans in WWII who had no problems to subjugate France. And BTW even Finland was part of the Russian empire for years.

I am a bit worried about the situation in the Ukraine. It's long known that the country is divided in a western pro European part and a eastern pro Russian part. Some people thought that a partition is very likely. Will this happen now? How possible is an civil war? How will Russia react? How will Europe react? This could become really nasty.

pelican
 
Russophile
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RE: Future Of Ukraine Decided On The Streets Of Kiev?

Tue Nov 23, 2004 6:52 pm

As always Russophile is dreaming of the big Soviet empire.

100% rubbish. There is an inherrent difference between an economic union and a political union. The CIS is a loose political union anyway. What Putin is looking for is a single-economic entity. BIG DIFFERENCE.

With Yanukovich in lead of the Ukraine a resurge of the SU is possible but with Yushchenko this dream will have not chance to come true.

With Yanukovich as president, pigs might grow wings and start to fly -- does not mean it is going to happen.

The Sad thing is Putin has the same dream.

Don't see how you can believe Putin wants the USSR back as a political entity?

I'm curious how deep Russia will be involved in the troubles starting now in the Ukraine.

Let's just say that if the Europeans and Americans piss off the Russians too much by sticking their noses in (equally), Ukraine and 25% of Europe could be having a cold, cold winter this year.  Big grin
 
Russophile
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RE: Future Of Ukraine Decided On The Streets Of Kiev?

Tue Nov 23, 2004 6:55 pm

And furthermore, why isn't anyone making any comments on something I have raised already.....that being serious allegations of election fraud by the Yushchenko camp? Am I to presume it is ok for Yushchenko to participate in fraud, but not Yanukovich?
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Future Of Ukraine Decided On The Streets Of Kiev?

Tue Nov 23, 2004 7:00 pm

Let's just say that if the Europeans and Americans piss off the Russians too much by sticking their noses in (equally), Ukraine and 25% of Europe could be having a cold, cold winter this year.

Piss off the Russians by not letting them Ukraine become their playground? Threatening to turn-off the oil tap? How about some maneuvres with nukes staged very close to the border? That would be even more typical.
You know Russia desperately needs the oil money so I'm sure comrade "Vladamur" won't be that stupid.
 
pelican
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RE: Future Of Ukraine Decided On The Streets Of Ki

Tue Nov 23, 2004 7:14 pm

Let's just say that if the Europeans and Americans piss off the Russians too much by sticking their noses in (equally), Ukraine and 25% of Europe could be having a cold, cold winter this year.

Do you need more proof?
Ukraine is as much our (European) business as it's Russian business. BTW This would hurt Russia as much as it would hurt us. Although this could mean nothing.

Don't see how you can believe Putin wants the USSR back as a political entity?
I am quite sure he wouldn't call his dream USSR. It's more like a new Russian empire.

And furthermore, why isn't anyone making any comments on something I have raised already.....
Maybe because it's a little bit difficult to manipulate an election if you are in the opposition and the election committee is controlled by the government?

pelican
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Future Of Ukraine Decided On The Streets Of Kiev?

Tue Nov 23, 2004 7:54 pm

Ukraine and 25% of Europe could be having a cold, cold winter this year.

I believe there was a pipeline Ingolstadt-Kralupy nad Vltavou built in the 1990s, which makes possible, in case of situations like Russophile dreams of, supply of Russian oil to be replaced by one from Northern Sea or the Gulf. It would be more expensive winter, that's for sure.
We've seen that sort of blackmailing pulled by Moscow before....oil being cut-off to Lithuania trying to gain independence. One of things Gorbatschev can't be really proud of (along with the bloodshed in Tbillisi)
 
Russophile
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RE: Future Of Ukraine Decided On The Streets Of Kiev?

Tue Nov 23, 2004 11:12 pm

Threatening to turn-off the oil tap?

First off my comment was not to be taken seriously. But it isn't oil, but gas. Gas which is carried thru Ukraine to Europe, which in turn is now happening because of a multi-billion dollar debt Ukraine owes Russia for unpaid gas supplies from the 1990s.

Maybe because it's a little bit difficult to manipulate an election if you are in the opposition and the election committee is controlled by the government?

So you mean to say that this rent-a-crowd (as a bud in Kiev calls it), paid for no doubt with European/American dollars, isn't trying to manipulate the results of an election? "We won't leave until we win!!".....does that also include not leaving if in fact Yanukovich was the fair winner?

And I love the way that people here are using the words of the OSCE and the US government to back up their stance, particularly when you consider:

1) Exit polls in some key US states put Kerry ahead of Bush, but the actual vote was in Bush's favour by a long mile. Why was there no accusations by the OSCE in this instance? After all, exit polls in Ukraine have showed the same result as in some US states - but the OSCE declared those US states as being 'fair'. Mind you, those exit polls were paid with money from who? You guessed it.
2) Does anyone here really believe anything the US government has to say anymore when it comes to other countries elections? Particularly after the way their lies were exposed in regards to Chavez in Venezuela only a few weeks ago. An election which the US put a lot of effort, time (and no doubt money) into trying to influence (much like they have in Ukraine).
3) If anyone has been keeping up to date with the Ukraine elections in the weeks before Sunday's run-off, you would know that the Europeans and the Americans have had this line in mind the whole time. That being -- if Yanukovich should win (fair or not), relations with Ukraine would be reviewed (downgraded) -- they want Lushchenko in the president's post, no matter what the cost.

Can only hope that an outcome comes about which is better for the people of Ukraine.
 
pelican
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RE: Future Of Ukraine Decided On The Streets Of Ki

Tue Nov 23, 2004 11:40 pm

Can only hope that an outcome comes about which is better for the people of Ukraine.

But what is better for the people?

Does anyone here really believe anything the US government has to say anymore when it comes to other countries elections?

I don't care what they say, there are enough other observer who noted "irregularities". Or how do you call results of 98% for Yanukovich in some regions.

So you mean to say that this rent-a-crowd (as a bud in Kiev calls it), paid for no doubt with European/American dollars, isn't trying to manipulate the results of an election? "We won't leave until we win!!".....does that also include not leaving if in fact Yanukovich was the fair winner?

So you know for sure Yanukovich is the winner? You must have good informants. I guess your informants have good ties to the current government?
They demonstrate peacefully that is not even near to faking an election.
You seem to have a rich fantasy to believe Europe would pay ten-thousands and more demonstrators.  Nuts

Who do you think could detect a fraud? You say the OSCE can not, the US-observer can't do it also. Am I right to assume you think the observer from the European parliament aren't also unbiased?
Of course Ukrainian governmental officials are trustworthy?  Nuts

pelican
 
Russophile
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RE: Future Of Ukraine Decided On The Streets Of Kiev?

Wed Nov 24, 2004 1:56 am

But what is better for the people?

That is a matter of opinion, not of fact.

I don't care what they say, there are enough other observer who noted "irregularities". Or how do you call results of 98% for Yanukovich in some regions.

Correction. One district had a turnout of 97% -- not all of this would have been for Yanukovich. The turnout is a matter of contention at the moment.

So you know for sure Yanukovich is the winner? You must have good informants. I guess your informants have good ties to the current government?

Can't see anywhere where I have said that Yanukovich is the legal winner. Why do people assume so much? Assuming that I think Yanukovich is the winner whilst at the same time assuming themselves that Yushchenko is the winner??!

They demonstrate peacefully that is not even near to faking an election.

Sorry, but saying that you will not leave until you are declared the winner, and also saying that you will do anything to ensure you are declared the winner, is not demonstrating peacefully, but basically threatening a violent campaign to get the result one wants -- very democratic huh?  Insane

You seem to have a rich fantasy to believe Europe would pay ten-thousands and more demonstrators.

Why? You and others would have fantasies that the Russians have rent-a-crowds when it is convenient for them....so why not the Ukrainians? Also, the level of this 'protest' is showing that it is well organised -- organised well in advance of any election. Don't fool yourself into thinking that Europe and the US haven't ensured the opposition is well-funded.

Who do you think could detect a fraud? You say the OSCE can not, the US-observer can't do it also. Am I right to assume you think the observer from the European parliament aren't also unbiased?

As I said before, the OSCE is not bi-partisan -- neither is the US. And are you joking about the European Parliament????? You can't be serious!!!!

Heard of Benita Ferrero-Waldner -- the EU External Relations Commissioner? She has gone on the record some weeks ago as saying that it would be best for the EU if Yushchenko was elected as Ukrainian President. The EU does have a huge biase in the results in Ukraine. Don't be so naive in that regard.

 
JGPH1A
Posts: 15080
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RE: Future Of Ukraine Decided On The Streets Of Kiev?

Wed Nov 24, 2004 2:06 am

Russophile - I think you're onto a Pyrrhic victory with this one. You may be have right on your side, but it won't help. You can argue till you're blue in the face that this is a matter for the Ukrainians to sort out for themselves, but you will have trouble convincing anyone on this forum that Ukraine will be better off in the Russian fold than in the European fold. Russia is still a basket case, and Mr Putin has managed to drag Russia back a few steps towards a more totalitarian political set up in the name of fighting terrorism (nominated rather than elected Provincial Governors for example, and no independent candidates for political office). The EU will expand as far as the Russian border, have no doubts on that score, it may take a while to get Belarus into any kind of fit state, and Ukraine will be no picnic either, but they'll do it, you watch.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
pelican
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RE: Future Of Ukraine Decided On The Streets Of Ki

Wed Nov 24, 2004 2:21 am

Why? You and others would have fantasies that the Russians have rent-a-crowds when it is convenient for them....so why not the Ukrainians?

Sorry mate, I'm not so stupid to believe that somebody is paying crowds.  Nuts
There are far more effective ways to play your own cards.


As I said before, the OSCE is not bi-partisan -- neither is the US. And are you joking about the European Parliament????? You can't be serious!!!!

Hmm, I am very serious. Probably, this doesn't fit in your black and white scheme but there are also strange things reported from the west (pro Yushchenko) Ukraine.

Can't see anywhere where I have said that Yanukovich is the legal winner. Why do people assume so much? Assuming that I think Yanukovich is the winner whilst at the same time assuming themselves that Yushchenko is the winner??!

All I've said so far was and this is a fact, this election was not fair. So you're the guy who is assuming too much.

And don't know about Australia (I know about the value of free protest in Russia) but at least here in western Europe is the right to demonstrate a very important right of the citizens.

And of course the EU would prefer Yushchenko as much as the Kreml would prefer Yanukovich. At least no official had congratulated Yushchenko like Putin who congratulated 'his' candidate as quick as possible not even pretending to be neutral.

I am still worried about a civil war and a possible divison of the Ukraine and I'm also worried about a possible Russian reaction.
I hope they (the Ukrainians) will find a solution toghether (I know this is very unlikely at the moment).

pelican
 
pelican
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RE: Future Of Ukraine Decided On The Streets Of Ki

Wed Nov 24, 2004 2:24 am

JGPH1A

As fare as I know there is a Russian-EU border.

pelican
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Future Of Ukraine Decided On The Streets Of Kiev?

Wed Nov 24, 2004 2:27 am

I know there is - in Kalininininingrad, and in Lituania, Estonia and Latvia. I meant the rest of the Russian western border.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
prebennorholm
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RE: Future Of Ukraine Decided On The Streets Of Kiev?

Wed Nov 24, 2004 5:19 am

Back from mudslinging to the thread topic - Future of Ukraine decided on the streets of Kiev?

Russophile says 15,000. A Danish journalist in Kiev just reported "roughly half a million".

What will happen? Will it be violent? There are reports telling that Ukrainian armed forces "cannot be trusted" by the regime. And there are reports about Russian troops moving in from east. The outlook is grim.

Putin was very fast to "congratulate" and Russian press ignores the investigator reports.

If the present regime "wins" the present struggle and ignores the investigator reports about the elections, then Ukraine will most likely slide further backward into a white spot on the world map like Belarus.

It's really a shame because it really has the opportunity to rise from its present mudpoole. It has a fairly well educated population and a lot of other resources. But as one big mafia playground any talk about prosperity is nonsense.

And in any case, if the present regime gets along, then it will be a terribly divided country which can do nothing good until next elections. It's a sad story.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
UN_B732
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RE: Future Of Ukraine Decided On The Streets Of Kiev?

Wed Nov 24, 2004 10:12 am

Yanukovich got like 95% of the prisons vote.. His nickname, "Ham". Which means sleezebag or dishonest.
The Kuchma regime has done bordering nothing for the Ukrainian people. I used to live in Ukraine. Viktor Yushenko, while perhaps not being pro-Russian.. Is not nearly half as corrupt as some...criminal! and might actually do something for the people..unlike Yanukovich who will keep Ukraine in a quagmire attempting to whore yourself out to all of your business friends, and the rich, and shaft everyone else and keep widespread poverty among the normal people.
Yushenko can change things, and he actually took the time to visit my mother's hospice.
Yanukovich just runs his campaign on sheer incumbency, and hopes that someone trusts Kuchma. Sure he's pro Russian..but in my opinion he's still a sleezebag.
What now?
 
UN_B732
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RE: Future Of Ukraine Decided On The Streets Of Kiev?

Wed Nov 24, 2004 10:14 am

Oh Yes, Russian Government networks and from what I saw said 6,000 tops..but this was last night, obviously Russian TV might be biased..but it seems plausible to me..if you ignore everyone on Kreshatik street, and not only on Maidan Nezalezhnosti/Independence Square.
What now?
 
UN_B732
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RE: Future Of Ukraine Decided On The Streets Of Kiev?

Wed Nov 24, 2004 10:16 am

Speaking of Belarus: They are actually doing very well.. Many less poor and sick people on the streets than Ukraine or Russia, and life there is fairly good..

Addendum: Some statistics reportedly say that like 60% of people voting from home or something, saw it on RTVi New York news.

[Edited 2004-11-24 02:18:04]
What now?
 
UN_B732
Posts: 3529
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RE: Future Of Ukraine Decided On The Streets Of Kiev?

Wed Nov 24, 2004 10:20 am

And whoever spoke in favor of Yanukovich's charges..cite your sources please.
Oh Yes, and if anyone questions my background.
I know many Ukrainians, my mother runs a medical institution there, I've lived there for a year and a half, and visited there 2 additional time.
What now?
 
Russophile
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RE: Future Of Ukraine Decided On The Streets Of Kiev?

Wed Nov 24, 2004 2:25 pm

You can argue till you're blue in the face that this is a matter for the Ukrainians to sort out for themselves, but you will have trouble convincing anyone on this forum that Ukraine will be better off in the Russian fold than in the European fold.

I'm not going to argue this point. I don't want to convince anyone on this forum of why Ukraine would be better being part of an economic union with Russia, Belarus and Kazakhstan (with more added later). Why should I bother trying to convince when a large proportion wouldn't even be able to pinpoint Ukraine on a map, and out of those who could pinpoint it, wouldn't know the difference between Lvov and Kharkov, Chernovitsy and Donetsk, etc, etc

Viktor Yushenko, while perhaps not being pro-Russian.. Is not nearly half as corrupt as some...

So the Gorbachev-style fire sales of state assets under Yushchenko wasn't a massive exercise in corruption? Under the reforms of Yushchenko, the Ukrainian people were earning less than a bushman in Africa -- wages fell thru the floor. And now people believe the shit he pushes in regards to instituting 'free market' reforms but at the same time creating 5,000,000 jobs (1/10 of the population)?

Speaking of Belarus: They are actually doing very well.. Many less poor and sick people on the streets than Ukraine or Russia, and life there is fairly good..

You aren't serious are you? Big grin Big grin Big grin

And whoever spoke in favor of Yanukovich's charges..cite your sources please.

If you want to appear that you know anything, I think you would be able to find this information for yourself?
 
mdsh00
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RE: Future Of Ukraine Decided On The Streets Of Ki

Thu Nov 25, 2004 7:18 am

Well...looks like the US and Canada are rejecting the official results that pronounced Yanukovich the winner. This could get ugly...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4040041.stm
"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
 
Russophile
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RE: Future Of Ukraine Decided On The Streets Of Kiev?

Thu Nov 25, 2004 2:56 pm

As well have the EU.

And is anyone really surprised? Of course they are going to reject the results, because the man they backed to the hilt was not announced as the winner.

This would have to be the best article (in English) I have read on this election. Why? Because it actually gives both sides of the story. Something not seen in the overly-biased western media.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2004/nov2004/ukr-n25.shtml

 
OYRJA
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RE: Future Of Ukraine Decided On The Streets Of Kiev?

Thu Nov 25, 2004 3:01 pm

One thing wonders me a bit. The western countries get pissed when someone is interfering in ther elections. So why do the western countries interfer with the others elections? Big grin
Why can't people just mind their own business??  Big grin
 
Russophile
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RE: Future Of Ukraine Decided On The Streets Of Kiev?

Thu Nov 25, 2004 8:50 pm

That doesn't just go for the US and EU, but also to Russia. But in the eyes of the 'western' media, it is only Russia which has meddled. Typical  Insane

Don't you just love this quote by Colin Powell?

"If the Ukrainian government does not act immediately and responsibly there will be consequences for our relationship,"

Of course there are consequences, Colin, if the Ukrainian authorities don't overturn the result and install Yushchenko as President (even illegitimately). One of those consequences is that you and your NATO cronies won't be able to set up bases on Ukrainian soil, which will in turn be chocked full of weapons, which will be firmly pointed at the Russian Federation.

Also, thinly veiled threats from both the US and the EU of violence are not going too well in Ukraine. They call them 'warnings', but read between the lines, and you can see they are calling for Yushchenko to start violent actions if they don't get what they want.

Additionally, Yushchenko himself is inciting violence at the moment. He is openly calling for the police and the Ukrainian armed forces to revolt and to join his 'opposition'. This is bordering on criminal in itself, as the police are not stopping opposition protestors from protesting -- they are neutral. And the army, too, is neutral, and is staying out of this.

Just something further to reply #32. Sure, the Danish reporter (biased already just by nationality) can say it was 500,000 people, but even the most high figures provided by Yushchenko is in the range of 180,000-200,000. And the 15,000 was for Monday. Not Tuesday, when you quoted me.

This type of over-inflating the situation is also common in the EU and American media. Numbers attending is one. I have also seen several reports from various 'western' media sources which claim that the number one claim for fraud by Yanukovich, is an alleged operation in Donetsk (I believe it was), in which a large number of pre-filled out ballots were being guarded by local police in a warehouse. Quite a claim! But why do the numbers of these ballots range from 100,000 right up to 500,000?

Which also begs the question. Even if it was 500,000 (unlikely), Yanukovich still had an extra 800,000 votes than Yushchenko overall (that is the 3% difference). What happened with the 300,000 votes? Discard them also? Are they legitimate? Are they not?

The 'western' media is also pissing me off, because they are blatantly only reporting one side of this story (Russian media is printing both sides!).

The 'western' media reports that several Ukrainian cities have announced that they will refuse to recognise Yanukovich as President, and will only recognise Yushchenko. Amongst these cities is Kiev and Lvov (Lvov being Lushchenko's stronghold). What the media refuses to report is that several Ukrainian cities have recognised Yanukovich, including Odessa, Donetsk and Dnepropetrovsk.

The 'western' media reports a traversty against 48 million in Ukraine. The way they are reporting, it is like all 48 million people in Ukraine voted for Yushchenko. This is not the case. You have some 12 million Russians in Ukraine, most of which would have voted for Yanukovich. (Of course, this is assuming that all 48 million and 12 million were actually of voting age). Out of the 36 million left over, not all would support Yushchenko. Remember, approx. 50% of the entire population lives in industrialised eastern Ukraine.

Both the Russian Federation and the US/EU need to keep their noses out of this, and the let the Ukrainians sort it out for themselves. But personally, I still would prefer to see Yanukovich as the prez.

 
JGPH1A
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RE: Future Of Ukraine Decided On The Streets Of Kiev?

Thu Nov 25, 2004 9:11 pm

Re: But personally, I still would prefer to see Yanukovich as the prez.

But why ? Because he's a ghastly old Soviet-era throwback ? Because he'll drag Ukraine into Russia's private economic nightmare ? How is that good for anyone ? There may be a significant Russian speaking population in Ukraine, but it is nonetheless a European country - it's future is in Europe.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
Russophile
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RE: Future Of Ukraine Decided On The Streets Of Kiev?

Thu Nov 25, 2004 10:47 pm

Why? Because since Yanukovich has been Prime Minister living standards in Ukraine have been rising. Whilst Yushchenko was running the central bank and was Prime Minister, living standards in Ukraine hit the bottom of the bottom. Average wages in Ukraine under Yushchenko were around US$60-US$70 per month!! People in the deserts of Africa earn more than that per month!!.

What the US and EU just won't get thru their thick heads is that Ukraine is not yet ready to be an open economy. These morons tend to forget that just over 10 years ago the entire social, political and economic system in Ukraine was turned upside down. A big part of the reason for Ukraine (and a lot of the former CCCP) being in the state they are in is because of US and EU 'enforced' IMF measures.

People don't want 50 years of hardship before seeing the beginning of some degree of economic recovery. They want it now.

Is it any surprise that the industrialised east is supporting Yanukovich, whereas the poorer and more rural west is supporting Yushchenko.

Yushchenko's policies do not make sense. How on earth does he expect, in the next 4-5 years to institute full market reforms, as well as creating some 5 million jobs?!? Basically what Yushchenko is promising is zero unemployment -- a promise which is impossible to achieve in any capitalist, open market society.

Also, JGPH1A, I don't see how you can say that Russia is experiencing an economic nightmare. Investment is on the increase (both domestic and foreign), and the economic outlook is looking pretty good -- and as long as oil is priced as it is, things will only get better.

What Ukraine should look out for is if Yushchenko bitches and whines his way into the presidency is a lot of money from Russia is going to leave, making the problems worse.....not to mention Russia is going to be even less 'kind' to Ukraine's energy needs.

Additionally, and importantly, Ukraine in NATO is dangerous. And the west is now sitting and scratching their collective fucking heads, and wondering why Russia is going to develop new nuclear technology. NATO bases on Ukrainian soil, with weapons aimed towards Russia, is going to cause a heap of instability.

And JGPH1A, Ukraine may be geographically part of Europe, but it has NEVER been a European nation, just the same as Russia is part of Europe only geographically. the EU can claim all they like, does not make it true.

Maybe the best solution for Ukraine is for everything east of Kiev to secede and become part of Russia, and everything west of Kiev (the Ukrainian nationalist homeland) take over the name of Ukraine, then everyone would be happy. Crimea has wanted for some years to secede from Ukraine, and join the Russian Federation. But the lack of civil and human rights restrictions against them under the Ukrainian governments has not warranted it. However, if Ukraine was ever to join the EU, you would see a push by Crimea, and also possibly other parts of eastern Ukraine, pushing to secede, because the local's rights will be infringed upon by mostly idiotic EU laws which Ukraine would have to adopt -- have seen it on a smaller scale in Lithuania, Estonia and Latvia already -- but it will be even more emphasised in Ukraine by the local Russian population.

All the EU wants Ukraine for is another avenue for companies such as Nestle to muscle into, and to try to tap into the transportation of oil and gas. All selfish reason. Nothing of any great benefit to the Ukrainian population.
 
Russophile
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Screw Lech Walesa!

Thu Nov 25, 2004 11:50 pm

Lech Walesa, who was invited to visit Ukraine to help to diffuse the situation, in what should be a bi-partisan role, has now flamed tensions in Kiev.

He has taken the stage at Independence Square and has said, and I quote:

"The whole of my life I fought for ideals. The situation in Poland was probably more difficult than yours. When I look at your enthusiasm, your engagement. I'm sure it will end in your victory."

Is this the example of bi-partisanship which is being portrayed by the supposedly independent EU?

The more this progresses, the more it should be a case of Russia saying "he may be a bastard, but at least he's our bastard", whereas Europe/US will have to wait another 5 years to rig the election better than they tried this time.
 
pelican
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RE: Future Of Ukraine Decided On The Streets Of Ki

Fri Nov 26, 2004 1:38 am

@Russophile Your picture of the world is really black and white.
The link you have provided don't state any news. This information is also availabele in our 'bad western press'. And I think the author is a little bit confused about the situation in Iraq. However his information about the Ukraine is seemingly not false.

Why is Europe better for the Ukraine than Russia? Because we can offer them freedom afte 400 years of Russian oppression.

pelican
 
Russophile
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RE: Future Of Ukraine Decided On The Streets Of Kiev?

Fri Nov 26, 2004 2:06 am

Funny you say my view of the world is black and white, then you come up with this:

Because we can offer them freedom afte 400 years of Russian oppression.

Care to take a few history lessons and you will see just how idiotic that is.

And is calling for violence, trying to destabilise a situation, and tacitly supporting a single person in an underhanded way, the way you Europeans promote your 'freedom'?  Insane

[Edited 2004-11-25 18:08:30]
 
Klaus
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Russophile

Fri Nov 26, 2004 2:34 am

Russophile: the way you Europeans promote your 'freedom'?

Yeah, we actually want clean elections. Shocking, I know!  Nuts

And for a change, we´re on the same page about it with the americans! Who would have thought?  Big thumbs up
 
Russophile
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RE: Future Of Ukraine Decided On The Streets Of Kiev?

Fri Nov 26, 2004 2:34 am

This information is also availabele in our 'bad western press'.

Please. Show me in the western press, this piece of information.

The EU and the US are using the official figures from the CEC to condemn the election of Yanukovich.

http://www.cvk.gov.ua/wp301ept001f01=501rej=1

http://scotty.lupustonline.net/page1.html - if link is down

In Lugansk, Yanukovich received 92.73% of the vote. This has been called fraudulent. Of course this is fraudulent, because it is in eastern Ukraine and it is for Yanukovich.

You will likely see this printed, in a roundabout way, in the 'bad western press'.

This is what you most likely will not see.

In Chernobyl, Yushchenko received 93.53% of the vote. This has not been called fradulent. Of course, this is not fraudulent, because it is in western Ukraine and it is for Yushchenko.

Why is the 'bad western press' not printing this? Because it would go against their own agendas to do so.

How is it that Yushchenko can receive a larger percentage of votes in Chernobyl than Yanukovich did in Lugansk, yet it is only the Yanukovich vote which is condemned as being fraudulent? Or did the Yanukovich camp accidentally put in 200,000 votes for Yushchenko in Lvov and Chernobyl, and is, therefore, also fraudulent?

http://www.cvk.gov.ua/wp312ept001f01=501

http://scotty.lupustonline.net/page2.html - if link is down.

That link shows the number of votes cast outside of Ukraine. Those figures are what one would expect. The reason being, there are more Ukrainians abroad from western Ukraine than there are from eastern Ukraine -- this is because eastern Ukraine is industrialised, whilst western Ukraine isn't as developed, and up to 30% of the male population is working in a foreign country at any given time. One thing would have made this vote for Yushchenko even higher -- over 100 polling places would have been made available in Russia for Ukrainians there to vote, but this was denied by the CEC (a decision which was 'applauded' by the Europeans and Americans).

Also, Pelican, if you Europeans are only wanting clean elections, can you please tell me why the Europeans have been interfering in internal Ukrainian politics in the leadup to the election, even more so than Putin and Russia have been?

So what were you saying about having a black and white view? Or is it that my views don't correspond to your own?  Insane

[Edited 2004-11-25 18:39:48]

[Edited 2004-11-25 18:48:33]
 
Jarek
Posts: 329
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RE: Future Of Ukraine Decided On The Streets Of Kiev?

Fri Nov 26, 2004 3:08 am

Russophile,

I am not recalling European polititians supporting publicly any of the candidates prior to elections.
AFAIK only Putin went there twice supporting "his guy".

BTW - we, Europeans want clean elections only. I am assuring you that if the elections would be clean no public official from Europe would question the results regardless the fact who wins.

Why OSCE declared that those elections were not clean?
Are they wrong?

Regards
Jarek

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