david b.
Posts: 2894
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2001 7:18 pm

Theology And Medicine

Wed Nov 24, 2004 4:56 am

I was reading an article in the newspaper last night that a woman was denied her refill of birth control pills from her pharmacist in Fort Worth, Texas. Her pharmacist did not believe in "abortion", and was not dispensing the birth control pills. The woman had to wait to the next day to get the pills at another pharmacy and missed one day of her pills.

The article also noted that some pharmacists, in other states, were not refilling the birth control prescriptions, would not transfer the prescription to another pharmacy, and would not return the prescription to the women who had turned them into that pharmacist. A woman who heads an organization of pharmacists agrees with what the pharmacists are doing.

I can't believe that this is happening in this day. You would think people against abortion would make sure the birth control pill is being dispensed. I don't like the thought of abortion, but I don't think I am in a position to regulate someone else's life. It's getting pretty scary that pharmacists are being judgmental. What happens when doctors become judgmental over a patient's care-won't treat someone with STD's because of the person's supposed "lifestyle".

I noticed that Viagra wasn't listed as being one of the drugs pharmacists would not dispense. Viagra is usually covered in healthcare plans, and the birth control pill is not always covered.

I don't know what those people were thinking but it is not up to the pharmacists to decide what people do with their bodies.

What are you opinions on this?
Teenage-know-it-alls should be shot on sight
 
avt007
Posts: 1989
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2000 4:51 am

RE: Theology And Medicine

Wed Nov 24, 2004 5:00 am

I guess they don`t want condoms sold either? If that happened to me first I'd complain to the owners of the pharmacy, and depending on the mood I'm in I'd consider reporting him to the medical board that regulates pharmacists. It is extremely unprofessional behaviour IMO.
 
theCoz
Posts: 3933
Joined: Mon Aug 16, 2004 11:06 am

RE: Theology And Medicine

Wed Nov 24, 2004 5:16 am

That is 100% unprofessional. Any pharmacist who is insubordinate because of their beliefs needs to find another profession.

The doctor writes the perscription. The doctor is the one who must decide whether the person uses birth control pills; not the pharmacist.

If the doctor writes the perscription, it is the responsibility of the pharmacist to follow those directions excactly. They have no right to deviate in any way.
 
air2gxs
Posts: 1443
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2001 1:29 pm

RE: Theology And Medicine

Wed Nov 24, 2004 6:04 am

If the pharmacist is a religious person, whose religion forbids birth control, why should the pharmacist be required to fill the perscription? You are in effect asking the pharmacist to break faith with his or her religion.

I just read through the pharmacist's oath and code of ethics and could not find where it says the pharmacist must dispense any medication. In fact here's an excerpt:

VII. A pharmacist serves individual, community, and societal needs.

The primary obligation of a pharmacist is to individual patients. However, the obligations of a pharmacist may at times extend beyond the individual to the community and society. In these situations, the pharmacist recognizes the responsibilities that accompany these obligations and acts accordingly.

Anyone can read that and say that based on their belief system the dispensing of a certain drug would be contrary to what they feel is right for the community.

The pharmacist should return the perscription and refer the patient to a pharmacy that will dispense the drug.

 
SSTjumbo
Posts: 2579
Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2001 3:29 am

RE: Theology And Medicine

Wed Nov 24, 2004 6:25 am

I'm pro-life; however, the pharmacist upon accepting the job accepts the job description which includes dispensing legal perscription drugs to those who hold perscriptions, regardless of his moral beliefs. If it bothered me so much that I couldn't do the job, I'd quit. However, I see it as self-responsiblity for the one practicing birth control. If it doesn't affect their conscience, that's their business. To an extent, I can't get involved on that level (if I were in the pharmacist's shoes).
I don't know, so this is my signature.
 
theCoz
Posts: 3933
Joined: Mon Aug 16, 2004 11:06 am

RE: Theology And Medicine

Wed Nov 24, 2004 7:01 am

If the pharmacist is a religious person, whose religion forbids birth control, why should the pharmacist be required to fill the perscription?


Many doctors are getting warnings from the DEA for perscribing controlled substances too liberally.

Notice how the DEA contacts the doctors to alleviate this problem, and not the pharmacist?


This crackpot should go to medical school if she's going to decide who gets a drug and who doesn't.

How can someone be so dense as to go through 5 years of school for pharmacology and not expect to be handing out drugs that are surrounded by controversy?

How does she feel about handing out perscriptions such as Oxycontin/Vicodin when there's proof that atleast 1% of the pills will be used recreationally? That wouldn't be very christian-like, would it.

The pharmacist who fills a medical marijuana perscription may not agree with the medicine, but it is simply not a part of their job to decide.


 
redngold
Posts: 6673
Joined: Wed Mar 22, 2000 12:26 pm

RE: Theology And Medicine

Wed Nov 24, 2004 7:54 am

I've read several articles about this and here are my opinions:

Birth control pills
Refusing to fill a prescription: perhaps
Refusing to refer to another pharmacy: no
Refusing to give back the prescription: no

Morning After pill (RU-486)
Refusing to fill a prescription for the morning after pill: yes
Refusing to refer to another pharmacy: perhaps
Refusing to give back the prescription: no

OK, I am anti-abortion and all for personal responsibility regarding sexual intercourse. I'm not a pharmacist, but here's my logic:

Referring to another pharmacy: In my case, there are a half-dozen pharmacies within a 1/2 mile radius, so common sense tells me most people could walk out the door and find another place. If I was in a more remote area and didn't have a colleague available to fill the prescription, I might just have to bite the bullet and fill it.

Refusing to give back the prescription: A prescription is a doctor's order to a pharmacist according to what the doctor feels is in the patient's best interest, so if I refuse that order, I should allow the patient to seek another person for help. Holding on to or tearing up the prescription crosses the line in my opinion.


redngold
Up, up and away!
 
theCoz
Posts: 3933
Joined: Mon Aug 16, 2004 11:06 am

RE: Theology And Medicine

Wed Nov 24, 2004 8:02 am

Redngold, good point:

"Refusing to fill a prescription for the morning after pill: yes"

I could completely see the validity in that one.

tough call, it adds a lot of weight to the opposing agument...



 
mdsh00
Posts: 3968
Joined: Mon May 17, 2004 11:28 am

RE: Theology And Medicine

Wed Nov 24, 2004 8:04 am

If the pharmacist is a religious person, whose religion forbids birth control, why should the pharmacist be required to fill the perscription?

B.S. A prescription is a written order from a doctor to fill a medication. It is the doctor's decision whether or not the patient. Even after that, the pharmacist refuses to fill the prescription he/she has no right to keep the patient from going to another pharmacist. Like other people said on here, if the pharmacist will let his/her personal beliefs keep others from getting the prescriptions they need, he/she is probably in the wrong profession.
"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
 
vneplus5
Posts: 54
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 9:37 am

RE: Theology And Medicine

Wed Nov 24, 2004 8:15 am

I fail to see why the doctor can refuse to issue a prescription for any reason other than a purely medical one. I believe they can not refuse on their own 'moral' grounds. If I was a woman and a doctor refused me a prescription, I would see to it that he/she is struck-off by the regulating authority for gross misconduct.

Completely unrelated to that point, there are several reasons why a woman may need to go on the pill for non-contraceptive reasons. I personally know 3 ladies who take it to regulate their menstural cycles and reduce heavy/painful periods.

Two other colleagues of mine who are sailors take it because they spend many hours each day in dry-suits which increases the risk of toxic shock. The pill helps to reduce that risk.

The pharmacist doesnt know that. It's confidential between a patient and a doctor. The doctor is more qualified and knows the patient's whole story. The pharmacist simply has zero input into the process. There is the prescription. Give me the pills. I will give you money in return. Simple.
 
theCoz
Posts: 3933
Joined: Mon Aug 16, 2004 11:06 am

RE: Theology And Medicine

Wed Nov 24, 2004 8:41 am

That's true, the pharmacist often has only a vague notion as to what the medicine is being used for.

For instance, a doctor may perscrive Wellbutrin SR for depression. The pharmacist does not know if it is for depression or if it for smoking cessation.

What about RU-486? Does it have any alternative treatments other than "morning after"?
 
TACAA320
Posts: 7153
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2004 3:03 am

RE: Theology And Medicine

Wed Nov 24, 2004 12:57 pm

"B.S. A prescription is a written order from a doctor to fill a medication. It is the doctor's decision whether or not the patient."

My father is a pharmacist and he [as well as myself] is Christian Catholic [or Roman Catholic, if you want]. The prescription is NOT an "order". Only a Court of Law can issue an order. But in any case, if I admit that IS an order, is not addressed to an especific pharmacy or pharmacist. So she [or anybody else] may go to another pharmacy and get her refill.

If she missed "one day" of her "treatment", she may go two or three days before to see her doctor, obtain the prescription and the pills.

By the way. I'm a lawyer specialized in Private Law but according with my religious believes I can't divorce a couple previously married under the Catholic Church Laws. Why? Is a mortal sin if I do so, and I beleive in that.

If somebody don't like that, I respect his/her point of view, but I expect the same respect toward me.
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
TACAA320
Posts: 7153
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2004 3:03 am

RE: Theology And Medicine

Wed Nov 24, 2004 1:53 pm

Just an additional comment to my previous one.

The prescription is a written or verbal permit to sell some drugs. If the MD for any reason [e.g. error or whatever else ] state in the R/ a lethal doses, the pharmacist is obligated not to dispense such prescription.

Why am I saying that? Because is directly related with the patient's life. Otherwise, releasing a prescription with a lethal doses, that put in risk a human life, is a felony.
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
mdsh00
Posts: 3968
Joined: Mon May 17, 2004 11:28 am

RE: Theology And Medicine

Wed Nov 24, 2004 3:24 pm

By the way. I'm a lawyer specialized in Private Law but according with my religious believes I can't divorce a couple previously married under the Catholic Church Laws. Why? Is a mortal sin if I do so, and I beleive in that.

If somebody don't like that, I respect his/her point of view, but I expect the same respect toward me.


Okay, so you are right about the role of the pharmacist in not being obliged to fill the prescription. But like you just said about your beliefs with Catholics getting divorced, would it be right for you to deny them a referral to another lawyer?
"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
 
ctbarnes
Posts: 3269
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 2:20 pm

RE: Theology And Medicine

Thu Nov 25, 2004 2:00 am

If someone has moral qualms about some kind of act such as filling a perscription or participating in a civil divorce between two Catholics, the central questions that need to be asked are:

1. Is your direct participation necessary for the act to take place, or is it likely to happen regardless of whether you particpate or not?

2. If you do participate, are you certain that the person you help will use your assistance for immoral ends?

If you answer 'yes' to either one of these questions, then you are morally culpable for cooperating in the act.

In the first instance, By declining to do the act yourself but refer them on to someone else, you are not morally culpable because the act probably would have happend regardless of your participation. This, in Moral Theology, is called formal cooperation.

Or in terms of the second, would you give your car keys to someone you are sure is going to use the car to rob a bank? If that person uses your car to rob that bank, then under criminal law you are an accessory. This is known as material cooperation. Confulsed?

Hope this helps (really!)

Charles, SJ

[Edited 2004-11-24 18:08:21]
The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy
 
teva
Posts: 1764
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 12:31 am

RE: Theology And Medicine

Fri Nov 26, 2004 8:12 pm

This message is not about the pill, but related to the rights of women.
And it is not intended to start a battle, but to open eyes, minds, and hearts.
I can understand that some people are against abortion and will refuse it for themsleves.
However, if you call yourself a "pro-life" , Here are some statistics that you can think about.
Abortion has been legalised in france 30 years ago.
Before this law, there were around 300 000 illegal abortion. Because it was illegal, there was a lot of women dying, or losing the possibility of having a kid later. And a lot of women in jail.
During the discussion of the law, a lot of catholic deputies were affraid that there would be a boom in the numbers.
Where are we today? The number is only 200 000. And you don't have all those death, and woman can have a baby later.

In other words, it is not because something is legal that everyone does it. But be sure the day you make it illegal, problems will overcome benefits.
(on a different subject, look at the results of prohibition)

Now, for your topic: for me, a pharmacist has to execute a prescription made by a doctor, unless the doctor has made a mistake, such as 2 incompatible drugs. If he cannot do this, he does another job.
A doctor can not be forced to do an abortion. but if he accepts (and in France, some doctors accept, even if they don't like to do it), they have to be respected, because they protect life of women and future children.
Teva
Ecoute les orgues, Elles jouent pour toi...C'est le requiem pour un con
 
TACAA320
Posts: 7153
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2004 3:03 am

RE: Theology And Medicine

Sat Nov 27, 2004 2:15 am

"Okay, so you are right about the role of the pharmacist in not being obliged to fill the prescription. But like you just said about your beliefs with Catholics getting divorced, would it be right for you to deny them a referral to another lawyer?"

Definitely NO. I can refer her/him to a non Catholic lawyer. Or she/he can choose another one by him/herself.

'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: Theology And Medicine

Sat Nov 27, 2004 2:53 am

If the pharmacist is a religious person, whose religion forbids birth control, why should the pharmacist be required to fill the perscription? You are in effect asking the pharmacist to break faith with his or her religion.

Ugh. Such utter crap.

If your religion prevents you from doing your job, you should do another job. Your religious interests are of no object to me if I've come to your licensed facility to receive the treatment my doctor wrote.

If you can't do it, make way for someone who can. This person should be stripped of his license.

N
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Theology And Medicine

Sat Nov 27, 2004 3:18 am

I had a similar situation in rural western Ireland a few years ago, when I went to a village pharmacy close to the pilgrimage town of Knock to buy some condoms. The pharmacist told me he doesn´t stock ANY birth control devices because they were against his belief. Tough shit if it is the only pharmacy around and also pubs don´t have them.
Another story from a married German lady who used to live in Connemara, Co. Galway. She already had three children, being herself at the age of thirty and didn´t want any more. The doctor refused to prescribe the pill because it was against her belief and because "the lady was still young enough to have plenty more children". Only problem that she was the only gynaecologist within 20 miles.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
ctbarnes
Posts: 3269
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 2:20 pm

RE: Theology And Medicine

Sat Nov 27, 2004 4:01 am

If you can't do it, make way for someone who can. This person should be stripped of his license.

The role of a professional is not simply to fulfill the demands of their clients, nor is it appropriate to demand of someone a particular act or service that violates personal morality. The law does allow for personal refusal of certain acts such as performing abortions as a matter of conscience. If an individual cannot fulfill a request due to moral qualms they can refer to a colleague, and in most cases this is reasonable.

Or to put it another way, how would you feel if someone forced you to do something you cannot in good conscience perform?

'I want' is not and should not be the sole consideration. The point instead is to try and balance personal autonomy and personal morality. We don't always get it right, but that is, in essence the goal.

Charles, SJ

(Edit for clarification)

[Edited 2004-11-26 20:08:27]
The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: Theology And Medicine

Sat Nov 27, 2004 7:48 am


Or to put it another way, how would you feel if someone forced you to do something you cannot in good conscience perform?


I would never put myself in a the position in the first place, and if I had for whatever reason, I would never allow my personal positions to interfere with my profession.

If an individual cannot fulfill a request due to moral qualms they can refer to a colleague, and in most cases this is reasonable.

It sounds as if this didn't happen. This person's goal was to enforce his beliefs on other people, not conscientiously object by referring their business elsewhere.

This is getting out of hand across America. Religious individuals are becoming more brazen in their attempts to enforce their system of belief as the only valid one, and the one by which all other Americans must behave.

It has to be put to an end. People need to start having their livelihood threatened if they insist on continuing this moral imperialism.

What if I had HIV, and had presented myself at the pharmacy because it was the only one in the area? What then, if the person disapproved of my lifestyle and refused to dispense the medication, and I missed an entire day? That could be permanently damaging to me.

If something like that were to happen, I would want that pharmacist held criminally negligent. There's only a very fine line between what I've depicted and what happened in the situation above.

N
 
ctbarnes
Posts: 3269
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 2:20 pm

RE: Theology And Medicine

Sat Nov 27, 2004 9:27 am

I would never put myself in a the position in the first place, and if I had for whatever reason, I would never allow my personal positions to interfere with my profession.

Few people would. If you are forced to do so by a third party (say a government) that is when the problems arise.

It sounds as if this didn't happen. This person's goal was to enforce his beliefs on other people, not conscientiously object by referring their business elsewhere.

I agree. There is a difference between standing up for what you believe in, and trying to force others to do so. Even then it's not straightforward, and can get very murky.

Charles, SJ
The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy
 
cedarjet
Posts: 8101
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 1:12 am

RE: Theology And Medicine

Sat Nov 27, 2004 10:04 am

I'm going to bed now. But as I do so, it is with a sigh of relief that I live on this side of the pond, and these superstitious religious beliefs have been consigned to history over here. You Americans can keep fighting over god (actually I thought y'all went over there so you didn't have to fight over god, but anyway), but it makes you weak and divided.

This abortion thing has to be put aside - as Teva said, when abortion was legalised in France, the number of times it happened dropped by a third and safe medical procedures meant women were protected. No-one in the debate over there (USA) gives a shit about the living, or women, it's worse than the Taleban. The entire dialogue is between middle aged white men who look like John Ashcroft, they've probably had sex five times in their lives and never listened to a woman ever. They know nothing and care nothing for women or their society, it's only about them and their (made-up) god. Not what America is about, folks.

PS Gigneil, you made my RR list.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
ctbarnes
Posts: 3269
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 2:20 pm

RE: Theology And Medicine

Sat Nov 27, 2004 2:18 pm

Cedarjet,

I lived in London for 8 years, and my conclusion is the British care more about their animals than they do about each other.

But then, we could both be wrong.  Big grin

Charles, SJ
The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy
 
cedarjet
Posts: 8101
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 1:12 am

RE: Theology And Medicine

Sat Nov 27, 2004 7:50 pm

Ctbarnes: actually, I think we're both right. The British can care for each other as little as they want, as long as they leave god and other superstitions out of it. And boy oh boy, is this a nation of dog lovers or what?

Cheers for lightening the tone, you're a funny guy.

Charles, London.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
air2gxs
Posts: 1443
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2001 1:29 pm

RE: Theology And Medicine

Sat Nov 27, 2004 10:53 pm

Cedar,

A point: The early colonists came over so that the could practice religious freedom without government intervention (and to make a buck, let's not forget that).
 
TACAA320
Posts: 7153
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2004 3:03 am

RE: Theology And Medicine

Sun Nov 28, 2004 12:00 am

"If your religion prevents you from doing your job, you should do another job. Your religious interests are of no object to me if I've come to your licensed facility to receive the treatment my doctor wrote.

If you can't do it, make way for someone who can. This person should be stripped of his license."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
We are not talking about the whole job. Just an especific thing among hundreds.

Such is the case of a MD who doesn't practice abortions based on religious beliefs. BUT he can do many other things.
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Theology And Medicine

Sun Nov 28, 2004 12:54 am

Air2gxs,

Don´t forget that the pilgrim fathers came from Elisabethian England because she wouldn´t let them burn Catholic churches to stamp out "Papists" , which they considered their religious freedom.
And even while the declaration of independence was discussed, some states e.g. Maryland, wanted to have state religions (in their case Roman-Catholicism, while the New Englanders wanted a hardcore puritanism as state religion).

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: Theology And Medicine

Tue Nov 30, 2004 2:39 am

A point: The early colonists came over so that the could practice religious freedom without government intervention (and to make a buck, let's not forget that).

That is utter bullshit.

The colonists came over because they failed to enforce their beliefs on everyone in England, and the government finally put their foot down.

N
 
CaptOveur
Posts: 6064
Joined: Thu May 06, 2004 3:13 am

RE: Theology And Medicine

Tue Nov 30, 2004 3:04 am

The point that seems to be getting missed here is the fact that birth control pills are not always prescribed JUST for birth control purposes. Sometimes it is prescribed to control bleeding, sometimes it is prescribed to regulate things, sometimes it is prescribed to keep the bitchiness level to a minimum. All of these reasons have nothing to do with someones BS opinion on abortion.

The doctor knows these reasons, the pharmacist does not, when pharmacists start thinking they are doctors peoples health and well being starts to be at risk.

If the pharmacist wants to pass moral judgement on people he/she/it should do it someplace other than their place of business or they should find a new line of work.
Things were better when it was two guys in a dorm room.
 
ctbarnes
Posts: 3269
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 2:20 pm

RE: Theology And Medicine

Tue Nov 30, 2004 3:47 am

The doctor knows these reasons, the pharmacist does not, when pharmacists start thinking they are doctors peoples health and well being starts to be at risk.

Not always. Many doctors will write the purpose of the perscription on the perscription script. If the pharmacist filling the perscription has a question or there is the possibility of a drug interaction or the drug is being perscribed outside the bounds of what the FDA has approved it for, he or she can telephone the physician and ask for clarification.

A pharmacist's job is not just to fill perscriptions. His job is to ensure that the medications perscribed will be safe and effective for the patient.

Charles, SJ
The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy
 
mt99
Posts: 6166
Joined: Wed May 26, 1999 5:41 am

RE: Theology And Medicine

Tue Nov 30, 2004 5:06 am

What about the attendant at McDonald who refused to give the Big Mac meal to the overweight man?
Step into my office, baby
 
bhill
Posts: 1315
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2001 8:28 am

RE: Theology And Medicine

Tue Nov 30, 2004 5:55 am

This person should be fired. Yes, the Pharmacist can question or consult the Doctor if there are questions about the directions or dose..or to notify the Doctor if he/she may have overlooked an allergy or cheaper alternative. But the Doctor, in whom the patient has placed his/her trust and health in has final say, not the Pharmacist. BTW, if I was the Doc that prescribed ANY medication that a Pharmacist refused to dispense on "religious" grounds, I would use all of the pull I had with the local medical licensing authorities to make sure this so-called Pharmacist would not be dispensing ANYTHING in the same State as me. The practice of Medicine is an Art and Science, lets keep the Worship in church, where it belongs. BTW TACAA320, a prescription IS an order, please note:

pre·scribe ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pr-skrb)
v. pre·scribed, pre·scrib·ing, pre·scribes
v. tr.
To set down as a rule or guide; enjoin. See Synonyms at dictate.
To order the use of (a medicine or other treatment).

v. intr.
To establish rules, laws, or directions.
To order a medicine or other treatment.

Please note the word ORDER used two times. Also please note that medications on Schedules II through V are to only be dispensed "By or on the ORDER of a Licensed Physician" per FDA requirements. Seems like an ORDER to me.

Cheers,

Carpe Pices
 
ctbarnes
Posts: 3269
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 2:20 pm

RE: Theology And Medicine

Tue Nov 30, 2004 5:59 am

So by this logic, if the physician perscribied a legal dose of amphetimines for assisted suicide purposes, the pharmacist would have to fill the perscription regardless of his or her religious beliefs about assisted suicide?

Charles, SJ
The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy
 
bhill
Posts: 1315
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2001 8:28 am

RE: Theology And Medicine

Tue Nov 30, 2004 6:07 am

Ctbarnes, Amphetamines are not the drug of choice for making someone terminally sleepy, it's a stimulant. Also, it's a moot point as "assisted suicide" is against the law in the US.

Cheers
Carpe Pices
 
ctbarnes
Posts: 3269
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 2:20 pm

RE: Theology And Medicine

Tue Nov 30, 2004 6:11 am

Amphetamines are not the drug of choice for making someone terminally sleepy, it's a stimulant.

My bad. I meant barbituates. Embarrassment

Also, it's a moot point as "assisted suicide" is against the law in the US.

Assisted suicide is legal in the state of Oregon.

Charles, SJ
The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy
 
csavel
Posts: 1270
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 9:38 pm

RE: Theology And Medicine

Tue Nov 30, 2004 7:55 am

I think in all fairness, if an pharmacist has an issue with dispensing certain drugs, there should be a sign right at the counter. Then the customer can choose to go to another pharmacy. Although it's a difficult decision, I feel that the pharmacist can refuse to dispense something if it conflicts with his beliefs. But it is a close call, how much leeway do we allow. Can a vegan waiter refuse to serve a steak to a customer, surely he knew what he was getting into? But keeping the perscription not only crosses a line, but let's call it for what it is, theft. The script belongs to and is the property of the customer until pharmacist chooses to fulfill the script. Pharmacist should be charged with petty larceny. I can't even see reasonable people arguing over that one.

BTW, for those who asked, mifepristone (RU-486) is used extensively for at least three things.

Acoustic neuromas and some other non-cancerous brain tumors (especially menengiomas). As a matter of fact, for acoustic neuromas, it is sort of a wonder drug. Something to think about now that there is talk of banning it in the US.

Some types of cancer, e.g. cervical and ovarian cancer. Ovarian cancer has a very high death rate, so anything that alleviates it should be out there.

It shows some promise in certain autoimmune diseases like MS.

For women with extreme PMS, it helps, also women with fibroids.
I may be ugly. I may be an American. But don't call me an ugly American.
 
bhill
Posts: 1315
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2001 8:28 am

RE: Theology And Medicine

Tue Nov 30, 2004 8:03 am

Ctbarnes, my bad you're right, I forgot about Oregon. Either way, if the Doctor and patient agree on a plan of care, and it's legal, there should be no interference from outside sources to disrupt said care plan. If the Pharmacist does not wish to follow orders, they should find another profession, and not attempt to inject (no pun intended) their morality into a private, personal part of someone's life. If they DO have an issue with how other people live their personal lives, use the Democratic process and have their elected Representatives create a law to make it illegal. We live by the Rule Of Law, not by other peoples' whims.

Cheers
Carpe Pices
 
ctbarnes
Posts: 3269
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 2:20 pm

RE: Theology And Medicine

Tue Nov 30, 2004 9:26 am

Ctbarnes, my bad you're right, I forgot about Oregon.

Guess that makes us even!  Big grin

Still, laws governing professions do allow for refusal to perform certain acts due to conscientious objection. If a Catholic doctor does not wish to perform abortions, for example, they do have the right under law to refuse to do so. Normally what happens is that the woman is referred to another doctor. A significant number of Oregon doctors also refuse to participate in the assisted suicide law because of ethical concerns about committing harm to the patient. Again, they are referred to someone else. If a pharmacist is uncomfortable filling a perscription for, say, the RU-486 pill on ethical and/or moral grounds, there are other places where they can obtain it, and those locations should be made available.

This is not about imposing ones morality on others. It is about being faithful to one's own belief system and the upholding of principles that stem from it. People should have the right to seek treatment within the bounds of the network of professional relationships (doctor-patient and pharmasist-patient) but also professionals are not and should not be forced to do things they find morally objectionable. It's a tricky balance but autonomy does not extend to acts the professional finds personally or professionally objectionable.

Charles, SJ
The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy
 
CaptOveur
Posts: 6064
Joined: Thu May 06, 2004 3:13 am

RE: Theology And Medicine

Tue Nov 30, 2004 12:18 pm

I don't know about you guys, but I have had some pretty shitty jobs in my life. In the last one I was a telemarketer, I did not agree with anything I did while I was on the clock and sometimes it even made me physically ill, but I checked my values at the door and took on the companies values and standards for 8 hours every day. In the end that is why I ended up quitting.

If your values don't permit you to do your job maybe you should find a new line of work. The clear exception to this is the private pharmacy which is becoming something rather rare. When you work for a large corporation like CVS, Walgreens, etc. You represent that company so you should tow the company line no matter what your own values are or you should seek employment elsewhere.
Things were better when it was two guys in a dorm room.
 
ctbarnes
Posts: 3269
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 2:20 pm

RE: Theology And Medicine

Wed Dec 01, 2004 2:06 am

Something just hit me about this:

There is a difference between being an professional and an employee. Being a professional means you have been trained and are viewed as having expert knowledge on a given subject. They may choose to be an employee of a certain organization (such as pharmacists for Walgreens), and if being an employee means they have to undertake certain actions that are ethically and/or morally objectionable (either to the profession or to the individual) then yes the should find other employement, but not necessarily be forced to leave the profession.

This world needs more people who are willing to act with a good ethical and moral compass. This does not mean (as I said above) ramming your values down peoples' throats.

Charles, SJ
The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy
 
TACAA320
Posts: 7153
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2004 3:03 am

RE: Theology And Medicine

Wed Dec 01, 2004 3:14 pm

"BTW TACAA320, a prescription IS an order, please note:

pre·scribe ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pr-skrb)
v. pre·scribed, pre·scrib·ing, pre·scribes
v. tr.
To set down as a rule or guide; enjoin. See Synonyms at dictate.
To order the use of (a medicine or other treatment).

v. intr.
To establish rules, laws, or directions.
To order a medicine or other treatment.

Please note the word ORDER used two times. Also please note that medications on Schedules II through V are to only be dispensed "By or on the ORDER of a Licensed Physician" per FDA requirements. Seems like an ORDER to me."

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sorry. That's a dictionary definition. Not what the Law says.

If you are right [what I personally don't think] he or she can sued the Pharmacist for his refusal. But as CBarnes said, the pharmacist job is more than just provide medicine. He MUST check any possible drug interferences, the doses, and even refuse it if he consider such doses as lethal.

But lets put it this way. If it is an "order" as you said, based on a dictionary, IT is NOT addressed to an especific Pharmacy or Pharmacist. It's something GENERIC in terms of WHO is the one obligated to give the medication.

So, if ONE Pharmacist do not give such medication to the patient, he/she must find another one who can't. Don't forget that Pharmacist also has rights, not only obligations.

One final comment, by the moment: When you [or the dictionary] said "To order the use of (a medicine or other treatment)" and " To order a medicine or other treatment" is according to my understanding and "order" to the patient not to the pharmacist. The one who is going to "USE" the medicine IS the patient not the Pharmacist.



'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
whitehatter
Posts: 5180
Joined: Sat Jun 12, 2004 6:52 am

RE: Theology And Medicine

Sat Dec 04, 2004 8:09 pm

Something just struck me about this...

Her pharmacist did not believe in "abortion", and was not dispensing the birth control pills.

um...birth control pills aren't anything to do with abortion! They prevent conception happening in the first place! In fact, follow the logic and the pills help prevent the need for abortion.

So said pharmacist is talking out of his arse if this story is in fact correct.
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
TACAA320
Posts: 7153
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2004 3:03 am

RE: Theology And Medicine

Sat Dec 04, 2004 10:19 pm

Whitehatter

I was not aware of that. But I tend to agree with you. There is no specific relation between "abortion" and "prevention with birth control pills". In addition, I think the problem is in the very first post.
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
User avatar
solnabo
Posts: 5019
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2008 8:53 am

RE: Theology And Medicine

Sun Dec 05, 2004 12:16 am

NO, absolutley NO doctor or nurse are to mix religion/medicine in their beliefs when it comes to abortions....period!

Dont you have the day-after pill in US? Its a prescriptionfree tablet you take 24 hours after you had sex.

The Womens Lib. here are very strong, just breath "no abortion" here and you are sooo f***ed and thank god for that, cuz NO ONE should decide if she´s to keep or abort her embryo,but herself!!!

This is my strong belifs in theology and medicine. I know it´s illegal to have abortion in many countrys, just becouse of ideolgy.

Thx!

Micke//SE
Airbus SAS - Love them both
 
TACAA320
Posts: 7153
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2004 3:03 am

RE: Theology And Medicine

Sun Dec 05, 2004 1:11 am

"This is my strong belifs in theology and medicine. I know it´s illegal to have abortion in many countrys, just becouse of ideolgy."

Yes, is illegal [ and a very serious crime ] because the Constitution of such countries fully protect the right of life, and for the same reason avoid the death penalty.

Regarding the main topic, it's usual in Lat America, that MD and Pharmacist can't refuse some treatments based on religious belief. They are protected to do so under the law.

'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
yukimizake
Posts: 506
Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2004 10:20 am

RE: Theology And Medicine

Sun Dec 05, 2004 2:49 am

"This is getting out of hand across America. Religious individuals are becoming more brazen in their attempts to enforce their system of belief as the only valid one, and the one by which all other Americans must behave."

The religious right has thrived under the Bush regime, with 4 more years things can only get worse.
'Opfer müssen gebracht werden (Sacrifices must be made)' - Otto Lilienthal
 
User avatar
solnabo
Posts: 5019
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2008 8:53 am

RE: Theology And Medicine

Sun Dec 05, 2004 4:15 am

You can discuss when life becomes life in a womb ´til U get blue in the face.

And I say what Fay Dunaway said in Mommie Dearest: NO WIREHANGERS!!

Just look what they´re doing in Romania, selling their babys for a nickel,more or less.......its is SO sad to see  Sad

Micke
Airbus SAS - Love them both
 
TACAA320
Posts: 7153
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2004 3:03 am

RE: Theology And Medicine

Sun Dec 05, 2004 8:13 am

If they sell their babies in Romania for a nickel how can they buy birth control pills ?

Or are you talking about abortion?
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
User avatar
solnabo
Posts: 5019
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2008 8:53 am

RE: Theology And Medicine

Sun Dec 05, 2004 8:24 am

TACAA320:

They are too poor to buy the b-c pill, thats why this tragedy happends every day.

This family was living in a shack w 15 kids outside Bucharest, wanted €500 for the newborn girl!

Micke//SE
Airbus SAS - Love them both

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: salttee and 14 guests