TechRep
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Germany Takes Steps To Integrate Muslims

Tue Nov 30, 2004 9:22 am

By TONY CZUCZKA, Associated Press Writer

BERLIN - Shop signs in Arabic and Turkish, storefront mosques and women wearing headscarves in the streets are evidence of how new arrivals have found a slice of home in Berlin's heavily immigrant Neukoelln neighborhood.

For years, Germans viewed such neighborhoods as a sign of a tolerant, multicultural society. But the Nov. 2 slaying of Dutch filmmaker Theo van Gogh allegedly by an Islamic radical has raised alarm in next-door Germany, which is home to more than 3 million Muslims.

Fears that growing alienation between immigrants and majority Germans could lead to strife have prompted politicians including Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder to send a message to Muslims immigrants: Learn German, fit in, commit to democratic rules.

In Neukoelln, where 80 percent of elementary school students are not German, some civic leaders say the debate underscores something they have said for some time: Immigrants are not going to conform to mainstream German society over time.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/ap/20041128/ap_on_re_eu/germany_muslim_minority

I have to say, I agree with this approach the Germans have taken. California took upon a similar initiative with Mexican-Americans and in the long run immigrants will benefit.

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prosa
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RE: Germany Takes Steps To Integrate Muslims

Tue Nov 30, 2004 10:24 am

I have to say, I agree with this approach the Germans have taken. California took upon a similar initiative with Mexican-Americans and in the long run immigrants will benefit.

I doubt that California's experience with Mexican immigrants, however it may play out, is going to be analagous to Germany's experience with Arab immigrants. Mexico may be considerably poorer than the United States, and speaks a different language, but both countries share the same basic Western culture and values. There is little or no likelihood of a "clash of civilizations" as there is with Germany and the Arabs. It may be that the more secularized Turkish immigrants in Germany may end up more like the Mexican immigrants in California. Time will tell.
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pilotaydin
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RE: Germany Takes Steps To Integrate Muslims

Tue Nov 30, 2004 10:27 am

most of the people in Germany that are Muslims, are Turks. To my knowledge, it was not a turk that killed the film director.

Also, if anyone wants to tie in that muslims are bad because of this killing...then welcome to world of massive generalizations....we've had our share in the USA after 9/11, I hope that Europe won't pick up on this trend.

While many people don't like Turks working in Germany and taking jobs so to say, we are a hard working people, although it only takes one idiot to give anyone or thing a bad name...example : the whole world pretty much..

there should be a cap though, because a lot of turks are overwelcoming themselves...it's Germany, the Germans should do what they need to, in order to stay ontop of their own nation...
The only time there is too much fuel onboard, is when you're on fire!
 
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yyz717
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RE: Germany Takes Steps To Integrate Muslims

Tue Nov 30, 2004 12:13 pm

The Muslim immigrants themselves should PRO-ACTIVELY be integrating themselves by learning German, fitting in, becoming secular or non-religious, or perhaps even converting to Lutheran or Roman Catholic. It should not be the case that the Chancellor speaks out on this. This shows the failure of Muslim immigration.

The inability of Muslim groups to integrate SHOULD raise the issue of whether Germany should be encouraging Muslim immigration at all. Hopefully Germans will have a frank and democratic discussion on Muslim immigration.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
jaysit
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RE: Germany Takes Steps To Integrate Muslims

Tue Nov 30, 2004 12:39 pm

...or perhaps even converting to Lutheran or Roman Catholic

They can do that right after the Germans start attending Church again.

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yyz717
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RE: Germany Takes Steps To Integrate Muslims

Tue Nov 30, 2004 12:57 pm

They can do that right after the Germans start attending Church again.

Fair enough. Then since Germans are secular, the Muslim immigrants should aim to become secular (non-practising) also.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Klaus
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RE: Germany Takes Steps To Integrate Muslims

Tue Nov 30, 2004 1:10 pm

Jaysit: They can do that right after the Germans start attending Church again.

Good point.  Big thumbs up
Church attendance is marginal - to put it mildly. And I consider that a good thing.

It´s been a long time ago, by the way, that turks were encouraged to come here; And it was never thought of as immigration, just as a temporary guest status (hence the term Gastarbeiter (guest workers)). And on the basis of that illusion integration was never really made a priority - neither by the state or german society nor by the immigrants themselves.

This situation is not sustainable any more.

On the one hand we need more support for better integration (easier access to language courses being one thing), but on the other hand the muslim communities cannot tolerate hateful anti-western propaganda in their midst. Some more responsibility must be assumed by the communities. There also needs to be a better connection between the immigrant communities and both state and society around them. We can´t have Ghetto-like structures outside of the constitutional order.
 
MD-90
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RE: Germany Takes Steps To Integrate Muslims

Tue Nov 30, 2004 1:18 pm

The Muslim immigrants themselves should PRO-ACTIVELY be integrating themselves by learning German, fitting in, becoming secular or non-religious, or perhaps even converting to Lutheran or Roman Catholic.

Fair enough. Then since Germans are secular, the Muslim immigrants should aim to become secular (non-practising) also.



Whatever happened to religious freedom? Should I convert to Catholicism just because there aren't very many Baptists in Germany?
 
mdsh00
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RE: Germany Takes Steps To Integrate Muslims

Tue Nov 30, 2004 1:21 pm

Whatever happened to religious freedom? Should I convert to Catholicism just because there aren't very many Baptists in Germany?

Seriously...unless you live in a dictatorship. Integration doesn't mean that the immigrant group capitulate any identity that they had previously, but rather an understanding and fusion of both cultures. Both natives and immigrants can learn from each other.
"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
 
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yyz717
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RE: Germany Takes Steps To Integrate Muslims

Tue Nov 30, 2004 1:29 pm

Seriously...unless you live in a dictatorship. Integration doesn't mean that the immigrant group capitulate any identity that they had previously, but rather an understanding and fusion of both cultures. Both natives and immigrants can learn from each other.

I disagree. If you move from the wretched 3rd world to a modern rich country like Germany, I think you owe Germany by integrating yourself into German society fully. That means becoming secular. The onus is on the immigrant to learn from Germans, not vice versa.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
mdsh00
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RE: Germany Takes Steps To Integrate Muslims

Tue Nov 30, 2004 1:51 pm

I think you owe Germany by integrating yourself into German society fully.

I strongly disagree with you there. The one thing I am glad that my parents brought with them from the "wretched 3rd world" Insane that they came from was their culture. I have never been so much more happy than to understand my heritage and take from it what I like. Truth is that there are positives and negatives to both American and Indian culture. I open myself to the positives of Indian culture and American culture, and am happy to see when people of other cultures come to see and experience my culture as well.

The onus is on the immigrant to learn from Germans, not vice versa.
By your logic then, the first European settlers to this continent should have adapted to the Native Americans right? After all, they were here first and the Europeans were the immigrants.
"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
 
Marco
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RE: Germany Takes Steps To Integrate Muslims

Tue Nov 30, 2004 2:30 pm

It's funny how Klaus thinks that the fact that German church attendance is marginal is a "good thing". It's also hypocritical because I don't think he would ever say the same thing for Muslims...or would you? Please clear that up Klaus.
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yyz717
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RE: Germany Takes Steps To Integrate Muslims

Tue Nov 30, 2004 2:56 pm

The one thing I am glad that my parents brought with them from the "wretched 3rd world" that they came from was their culture.....Truth is that there are positives and negatives to both American and Indian culture.

True perhaps, but you still fled from your Indian culture for the prosperity and comfort of the wealthy West. Dont you think that obliges you to adopt 100% to US culture? I certainly do.

It would also seem there are far more positives to American culture than Indian culture since millions of Indians are clamouring to emigrate to the US, but no Americans are moving to India. I'm not picking on India. Just stating the obvious.

My mantra is simple -- if you want the prosperity of the West, become a Westerner 100%. Become secular, and learn the local language. Otherwise, return to your country of origin.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Russophile
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RE: Germany Takes Steps To Integrate Muslims

Tue Nov 30, 2004 3:12 pm

MY GOD YYZ717!! Let me guess. You were all for the Crusades also right?
 
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yyz717
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RE: Germany Takes Steps To Integrate Muslims

Tue Nov 30, 2004 3:18 pm

MY GOD YYZ717!! Let me guess. You were all for the Crusades also right?

Nope.

When in Rome, do as the Romans do. That's all I'm saying. Especially when the Romans (or Americans, or Britons, or Swedes) were GENEROUS enough to let you emigrate to their prosperous societies.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
cfalk
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RE: Germany Takes Steps To Integrate Muslims

Tue Nov 30, 2004 3:19 pm


So you do not believe that it is a person's civic duty to conform to the laws and mores of the society around you? Are you really that self centered as that, Russophile? You believe that the militancy of the minority should overcome the tolerance of the majority? Me, me, me-generation, aren't you?

Charles
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rjpieces
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RE: Germany Takes Steps To Integrate Muslims

Tue Nov 30, 2004 3:22 pm

Ann Coulter once said that the US should invade the Arab World and convert them all to Christianity.....I disagree with her as I do with you YYZ717. While of course ANY immigrant should adapt and assimiliate into their new culture, it is equally important for them to maintain their identity and to have religious freedom. EVERY American comes from somewhere else and yet we keep part of our old identities. It is what makes America, and any open free country so special.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
mdsh00
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RE: Germany Takes Steps To Integrate Muslims

Tue Nov 30, 2004 3:28 pm

True perhaps, but you still fled from your Indian culture for the prosperity and comfort of the wealthy West. Dont you think that obliges you to adopt 100% to US culture? I certainly do.

First off, I didn't chose to come here as I was born in this country, so of course I have more American culture in me than Indian. Yes, my parents did emigrate (not flee) to this country for a better life, but because they did doesn't mean that they can and should break all bonds with the life they left behind. I'd be willing to bet that you couldn't do the same if you had to. A big part of what makes us into who we are today is the fact that cultures did NOT just conquer one another. History can tell us that even when one group conqured another, a part of the conqureds' culture became a part of theirs...so what is so bad about Westerners learning about the culture of another region? So no, I believe that while it shouldn't be forced, multiculturalism should be at least encouraged.

It would also seem there are far more positives to American culture than Indian culture since millions of Indians are clamouring to emigrate to the US, but no Americans are moving to India. I'm not picking on India. Just stating the obvious.

Well, the first part of your statement is mostly opinion, and my opinion after having experienced both cultures is that there are good and bad things in both which mostly equal each other out. While I agree with you that immigrants should adopt or learn the culture in their new country, to force them to give up their old culture is, in my opinion, not only un-democratic but authoritarian.


About the OP. Germany is taking the right steps to combat this problem, and it should be sucessful as long as the Turkish groups cooperate.
"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
 
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yyz717
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RE: Germany Takes Steps To Integrate Muslims

Tue Nov 30, 2004 3:31 pm

EVERY American comes from somewhere else and yet we keep part of our old identities.

The overwhelming majority of Americans are Christians. There is a strong degree of incompatibility with very religious Muslims migrating to a largely Christian but secular society (as witnessed by many Western nations now experiencing problems with their new Muslim minorities).

Hence, I argue that the maintenance of EXTREME Islamic customs and faith by Muslim immigrants is completely incompatible with Western values. Hence, Muslim immigrants owe it to the West to become secular when they immigrate here.

When in Rome............

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
jmc1975
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RE: Germany Takes Steps To Integrate Muslims

Tue Nov 30, 2004 3:39 pm

If the topic read: "Arab Countries Take Steps to Integrate Christians" , would that be any less of a good thing? Take a long hard look folks!
.......
 
prosa
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RE: Germany Takes Steps To Integrate Muslims

Wed Dec 01, 2004 12:14 am

The Muslim immigrants themselves should PRO-ACTIVELY be integrating themselves by learning German, fitting in, becoming secular or non-religious, or perhaps even converting to Lutheran or Roman Catholic.

I would stop somewhat short of asserting that the Muslim immigrants in Germany have to become secular, or convert to Christianity, in order to fit in. Continued practice of Islam is probably okay so long as things aren't taken to an extreme. Of course, it may not be easy determining how far is too far.
"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
 
gigneil
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RE: Germany Takes Steps To Integrate Muslims

Wed Dec 01, 2004 1:32 am

I disagree. If you move from the wretched 3rd world to a modern rich country like Germany, I think you owe Germany by integrating yourself into German society fully. That means becoming secular. T

Please. You can't possibly believe this.

N
 
MD-90
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RE: Germany Takes Steps To Integrate Muslims

Wed Dec 01, 2004 2:03 am

I guess it's time for people like Jaysit to convert to Christianity if they're gonna stay in the US. The overwhelming majority of Americans profess Christianity as their faith. No tolerance for those liberal atheist hedonists in the US, that's what I say.

If Muslims in Germany are advocating death to the infidels (everyone but Muslims), then there's a problem. Otherwise they should have their mosques, prayer rugs, and the rituals that make up the Muslim religion and be free to practice it. After, Islam is one of the three great monotheistic religions.
 
jaysit
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RE: Germany Takes Steps To Integrate Muslims

Wed Dec 01, 2004 2:22 am

a. Turkey is hardly a wretched third world country. It may have been when Turks were immigrating in droves in the 70s. Its really quite advanced now.

b. As far as secularism is concerned, Turkey IS constitutionally secular. However, attempts at imposing secularism have not been very successful. Much of Turkey's new Islamic rise is a backlash against secularism.

c. A large number of the Turks who immigrated earlier and their children ARE fully integrated in Germany. Some of the newer immigrants, however, are more Islamicized in an odd radical manner. Also some second and third generation Turks have taken to radical Islam. I see this as a backlash again to modern mores, much in the same way a rise of evangelical fundamentalism in the US is a backlash against modern secular rationalism.

d. Many have criticized Germany for not granting full citizenship rights to its Turkish immigrants. This is incorrect. Germany always granted full citizenship, but demanded that the Turks revoke their Turkish citizenship. Many Turks did not want to. This is their problem, not Germany's problem. I believe that this has now either changed in that Germany allows dual citizenship or that many Turks have been naturalized.

e. The basic tenet of a multi-cultural society is tolerance and acceptance. And this should come from ALL sides. A modern secular rational nation state cannot - and should not - accept forms of religious intolerance by its new immigrants or its established citizenry. Showing up in Munich and then insisting that your daughter can't marry a German or has to wear a burkha or can't attend a co-educational public school is just unacceptable.

Continued practice of Islam is probably okay so long as things aren't taken to an extreme. Of course, it may not be easy determining how far is too far.

I guess you can say that about any religion. We have more to fear from those so-called fire and brimstone "God fearing Christians" here than anyone else.

True perhaps, but you still fled from your Indian culture for the prosperity and comfort of the wealthy West. Dont you think that obliges you to adopt 100% to US culture?

What does 100% adoption of US culture even mean? Which version of US culture? American culture in secular New York is closer to the secular modern experience in Bombay or Hong Kong or Istanbul than it is to Memphis, TN or Greenville, SC or Boise, ID. And why do you assume that this guy, mdsh00, who was born here in the US is any less American than the next guy just because of his ancestry? Judging by his posts, he could teach half of America a lesson or two on what it really means to be American.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
pelican
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RE: Germany Takes Steps To Integrate Muslims

Wed Dec 01, 2004 2:46 am

It seems to me that many people who are discussing the topic have no or little idea what's going on here.
First: The majority of Muslims here aren't Arabs but Turks.
Second:Turkey is a secular country. You may argue whether the Turkish society is secular.
Third: The problem of radical Muslims is very new to our society. The Turks who came to Germany were probably very conservative but they weren't near to fundamentalism. The by far biggest part of Turks aren't fundamentalist. Fundamentalism originates in isolated not integrated hence poor Turkish communities in big German cities.The problem is, because they aren't integrated they are more vulnerable to become fundamentalists.

Just € 0.02

pelican

 
prosa
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RE: Germany Takes Steps To Integrate Muslims

Wed Dec 01, 2004 2:50 am

Continued practice of Islam is probably okay so long as things aren't taken to an extreme. Of course, it may not be easy determining how far is too far.

I guess you can say that about any religion. We have more to fear from those so-called fire and brimstone "God fearing Christians" here than anyone else.

I couldn't agree more. http://www.godhatesamerica.com/ is really no different than an extreme Islamic fundamentalist site, in that the main point of both is the teaching of hate.
"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
 
pelican
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RE: Germany Takes Steps To Integrate Muslims

Wed Dec 01, 2004 2:58 am

Jaysit I have to agree with your post.
But:
A large number of the Turks who immigrated earlier and their children ARE fully integrated in Germany.
What is a large number - 10%, 30%, 70% ?

I believe that this has now either changed in that Germany allows dual citizenship or that many Turks have been naturalized.
Nope, dual citizenship is still an exception.

peilcan
 
Scorpio
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RE: Germany Takes Steps To Integrate Muslims

Wed Dec 01, 2004 3:02 am

YyZ717,

When in Rome, do as the Romans do.

...and yet I don't see you living in tipis, hunting buffallo and wearing mocassins...

On a serious note, it seems like you're advocating that 'freedom of religion' be removed from the Western societies' constitution. If that's what you're saying (and it sounds like you are) may I say you terrify the living shit out of me? Welcome to the Middle Ages!
 
qr332
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RE: Germany Takes Steps To Integrate Muslims

Wed Dec 01, 2004 3:13 am

Yyz717,
The Muslim immigrants themselves should PRO-ACTIVELY be integrating themselves by learning German, fitting in, becoming secular or non-religious, or perhaps even converting to Lutheran or Roman Catholic.

Our local extremist thinks that Islam is not a religion good enough for the Western world? Very interesting. Why do you think they should become Christian to fit in, Yyz?

The inability of Muslim groups to integrate SHOULD raise the issue of whether Germany should be encouraging Muslim immigration at all. Hopefully Germans will have a frank and democratic discussion on Muslim immigration.

This applies to any immigrant group. When you have uneducated masses, no matter what religion or background they come from you will have the same problem.

I disagree. If you move from the wretched 3rd world to a modern rich country like Germany, I think you owe Germany by integrating yourself into German society fully. That means becoming secular. The onus is on the immigrant to learn from Germans, not vice versa.

So the 3rd world is wretched because its not as rich as you? And why is it that you think Germany cannot learn anything from its immigrants? Part of the democracy the West boasts is religious freedom - practice it, dont just preach it. The wretched 3rd world, in many respects, has many social advantages over the shinig examples in the 1st world. At least the 3rd world has been able to hold on to their identity.

True perhaps, but you still fled from your Indian culture for the prosperity and comfort of the wealthy West. Dont you think that obliges you to adopt 100% to US culture? I certainly do.

Your identity and roots do not change when you immigrate. Should I adopt Jordanian culture because I have Jordanian citizenship, and forget my real country and roots, Palestine?

Cfalk,
So you do not believe that it is a person's civic duty to conform to the laws and mores of the society around you?

Intergrating into society and losing your culture are two different things. I am a Muslim and can probably fit in 100% into Western society now without converting, but because I am more educated than the general class of immigrants now in Germany. Religion has nothing to do with it - it is the level of eduction.

Yyz,
Hence, I argue that the maintenance of EXTREME Islamic customs and faith by Muslim immigrants is completely incompatible with Western values. Hence, Muslim immigrants owe it to the West to become secular when they immigrate here.

What extreme cultural issues are you refering to?
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
jaysit
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RE: Germany Takes Steps To Integrate Muslims

Wed Dec 01, 2004 3:30 am

Pelican:

It appeared to me - from my travels in Germany over the last 15 years - that the Turkish ghettoes have diminished or have even been transformed. And you see German Turks everywhere you travel today. So at least from the visual standpoint of a traveller in your country, one can see more Turkish assimilation.

I think also that Germany has finally come to terms with the reality that it is an immigrant destination and that these immigrants are not guest workers any more, but are in Germany forever. So, I think - and you can correct me - that this two-way street for assimilation has made it easier for Turks to assimilate.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Germany Takes Steps To Integrate Muslims

Wed Dec 01, 2004 4:02 am

Back in the 60s-70s, when the "Guest workers" were recruited, almost everybody expected them to go home after a few years, actually many from Portugal, Italy and Spain have done exactly this, they saved their money and went back to their countries of origin to e.g. buy some land or start a business (I´ve met quite a few Spanish in their 40s-50s on my travels, who told my that theyhave spent some time in Germany). Many Turkish though, completely legal, used another option, meaning to stay and live permanently in Germany.
Now, the problem in Germany is that most Germans and many of their political class have and are still denying that Germany turned into a country of immigration. The political right, because they are afraid that it might attract more immigration and out of racist reasons and the political left, because they lived in a fantasy of tolerant multi culturalism where everything would turn out nicely if left alone.
As a result Germany never had any immigration legislation, regulating the necessary immigration within acceptable limits, but on the other had so many loopholes where, not always desirable persons could slip through, notably our political asylum laws. Based on the experiences of the Nazi regime, the constitution guarantees political asylum, but it can be very easily used by fake asylum seekers (I know, because I´ve been married to one for 6 years), mostly uneducated people with a certain streetwiseness and not very scrupelous when it comes to milking the social welfare system.On the other hand, real refugees and qualified specialists and other hard working people are not being admitted in Germany out of political reasons (high unemployment, but e.g. with a shortage of nurses, does somebody seriously expect an unemployed German builder of 50 years to be retrained as a nurse just to be able to employ a German?). A foreign nurse from a non-EU country and a handfull of other countries can at the moment, even if she has the right professional credentials and speaks German only live and work in Germany if she marries a German citizen or a permanent resident.

A few years ago, the Schroeder government tried to pass an immigration bill based on Canadian immigration laws to control immigration, based on a point system concerning background, education, family etc., but it was voted down by the at this time conservative majority in the Bundesrat (equivalent to the American senate).

One result of this lack of immgration gegulations was that for 30+ years almost nothing has been done to actively integrate the defacto immigrants into our society (one basic item for me would be a proof of reasonable German language knowledge for a permanent work/residence permit), because everybody figured that they would go back to their countries of origin some day.

Back to the topic, the first 70 odd articles in the German constitution spell out the basic rights and duties of any person residing in Germany. They include religious freedom, right of free speech and it´s limits, equality independent of race, origin, religion and sex.
An immigrant HAS to abide by these rules, he can´t just pick whatever he likes. If he complains about hate speech e.g. by Neo-Nazis against immigrants, then he can´t complain if his own hate propaganda against the local population gets censured. These laws are equaly valid, both for immgrants and the local population.
If the immigrant doesn´t like the laws here, well, there is the door, don´t let it hit you on your way out!

BTW, concerning the religious fascist, in my opinion they have to be fought and persecuted just like Neo-Nazis and Stalinists, before they can do damage.
The idea of the radicals is that, because they follow "pure" Islam, God should make them rule the world.

My two Pfennigs,

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
pelican
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RE: Germany Takes Steps To Integrate Muslims

Wed Dec 01, 2004 4:05 am

Part of the democracy the West boasts is religious freedom - practice it, don't just preach it
QR332 I can assure we have - unlike any Arab country religious freedom.


And you see German Turks everywhere you travel today. So at least from the visual standpoint of a traveller in your country, one can see more Turkish assimilation.
Sure, a part of the Turkish minority here was able to a wide integration. Unfortunately these ghettos haven't vanished. They are still here and since we have big economical problems integration of the majority of Turks in Germany makes no or only small advances.

So, I think - and you can correct me - that this two-way street for assimilation has made it easier for Turks to assimilate.
Sorry, but I think you're wrong. Okay I can't judge the situation 15 years ago (I am 22) but I can't see a progress, at least in Berlin. Berlin lost much of its subsidies after the reunification this lead to a recession. Many factories of the old industry of Berlin which had survived the wall because of the subsidies were shut down.
This is the reason why more than a third of all Turks in Berlin is unemployed (I believe unemployment rate is about 45%). I think you can figure that's not a boost for integration. More a boost for fundamentalism.

pelican
 
avek00
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RE: Germany Takes Steps To Integrate Muslims

Wed Dec 01, 2004 4:09 am

The notion that a society can remain viable when there is nothing that practically binds its people together is absurd - no great society has lasted long in the absence of a collective identity. The assimilation of persons from different groups must be pursued as a matter of national policy. At a minimum, the government should coerce the minority group members to learn the language(s) of the country, and encourage the upwardly mobile members of the group to assimilate fully into the society through full civic participation, and, in some cases, intermarriage with the majority group.

Indeed, I fault the US government for not pursuing assimilation policies towards Blacks after the abolition of slavery - Blacks could have been almost fully assimilated by now.
Live life to the fullest.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Germany Takes Steps To Integrate Muslims

Wed Dec 01, 2004 4:23 am

Pelican,

Concerning your last post, many Turks settled in Berlin, while here in mostly Roman-Catholic Rhineland, most Gastarbeiter were actually Roman-Catholic Spanish, Portugese or Italians.
Concerning the unemployment of many Turkish in Berlin, just look at the ducational background of many of them. The parents were mostly peasants from eastern Turkey, hired to do the dirty unskilled manual work in factories and construction sites. As you said correctly, after the unification, the cold war subsidies for Berlin were cut (subsidies to encourage entrepreneurs and workers to stay in politicaly risky West Berlin, if I remember correctly we got 5% added tax free on our salaries as Berlin subsidy), at the same time markets and labour in eastern Europe became available. Many traditional factories closed and production in Berlin really took a hit. Additionally, production work moved from unskilled assembly line work to jobs were at least a full apprenticeship if not a college degree is required. So no chance for a laid off middle aged unskilled worker with rudimentary German language skills.
Then look at the younger Generation: Except with East Asians, I noticed again and again that there seems to be a total loss of ambition once they get to an industrial country. The parents simply don´t seem to be interested in their children advancing. Add to this a pulling back into their own community through forming ghettos and you´ll have a breeding ground for radicalism. I´ve got high respect for Turkish and Arabian girls and young women I´ve seen here. Most of them tend to be very responsible and hard working (due to the fact that they often have to take care of the family at a young age), but many boys, especially first sons, appears spoiled to me. The girl´s advancement often gets blocked through customs and traditions, while the boys tend to get spoiled until they have to face real life when school ends and they discover that acting macho in a street gang doesn´t help them much to get a respectable job.
This, of course, varies with the educational level of the parents. Those Turkish classmates I had in high school and college, both male and female, who did good, almost always came from educated Turkish families, who were themselves quite liberal.

Ok, I´ve got to go to work now, continue tomorrow...

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
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solnabo
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RE: Germany Takes Steps To Integrate Muslims

Wed Dec 01, 2004 4:31 am

The european castle is closing its doors for immigration more and more now

for good or bad! IMHO, I think it´s good..

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jaysit
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RE: Germany Takes Steps To Integrate Muslims

Wed Dec 01, 2004 4:42 am

Blacks could have been almost fully assimilated by now.

They are.

Black Americans ARE Americans. Probably more so than anyone else. While the rest of us can trace our ancestry back to a country or even a village in Ireland, Italy, China or India, black Americans have America. Thats it.

Besides what would American music, literature or food be without the American black experience? We'd all be listening to Lawrence Welk and wearing plaid.
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yyz717
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RE: Germany Takes Steps To Integrate Muslims

Wed Dec 01, 2004 4:46 am

The inability of Muslim groups to integrate SHOULD raise the issue of whether Germany should be encouraging Muslim immigration at all. Hopefully Germans will have a frank and democratic discussion on Muslim immigration.

This applies to any immigrant group.


True, but all the problems seem to be with Muslim immigrants refusing to integrate. I never hear of problems with Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists not integrating into Western countries.

Why are SO MANY Western nations having trouble with ONLY their Muslim minorities? It's a valid question.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
qr332
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RE: Germany Takes Steps To Integrate Muslims

Wed Dec 01, 2004 4:52 am

Pelican,
QR332 I can assure we have - unlike any Arab country religious freedom.

You have misunderstood me. I am referring specifically to Yyz, I respect the West for what it has achieved. He is talking about doing this to preserve democracy - part of it is actually tolerating other cultures.

EDIT:
True, but all the problems seem to be with Muslim immigrants refusing to integrate. I never hear of problems with Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists not integrating into Western countries.

Why are SO MANY Western nations having trouble with ONLY their Muslim minorities? It's a valid question.


It is not only Muslims, Yyz, it is mainly because the latest waves of fresh immigrants are Muslim. It is also partially to the many problems involving Muslims going on, and Muslims feeling more insecure and as a result turning to fundimentalism post-9/11. But every group has had its problems, and so will this one. Just because the problems aren't as advertised it doesnt mean they dont exist. In America, don't they have trouble with Mexicans? Just one of many examples. It takes two generations to intergrate usually, and then you can see the result.

[Edited 2004-11-30 20:55:52]
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Marco
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RE: Germany Takes Steps To Integrate Muslims

Wed Dec 01, 2004 4:57 am

Why are SO MANY Western nations having trouble with ONLY their Muslim minorities? It's a valid question

It's not just Western countries. Even "Eastern" or "Oriental" countries such as Thailand and the Phillipines have problems with their Muslim minorities.
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prosa
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RE: Germany Takes Steps To Integrate Muslims

Wed Dec 01, 2004 6:25 am

Why are SO MANY Western nations having trouble with ONLY their Muslim minorities? It's a valid question

It's not just Western countries. Even "Eastern" or "Oriental" countries such as Thailand and the Phillipines have problems with their Muslim minorities.

Good point, although in both such cases the Muslims aren't immigrants, but rather people who've long occupied relatively small portions of primarily non-Muslim countries. In both instances the Muslims want greater autonomy over their areas if not outright independence. The restive Muslim immigrant populations in Europe don't really have defined goals.
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Klaus
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Marco

Wed Dec 01, 2004 8:01 am

Marco: It's funny how Klaus thinks that the fact that German church attendance is marginal is a "good thing".

I don´t have anything against the more enlightened religious people. But since high attendance levels at church (of any religion) generally imply an increased level of religiously motivated hatred and bigotry as well, I can only welcome the secularity of our society.

Marco: It's also hypocritical because I don't think he would ever say the same thing for Muslims...or would you? Please clear that up Klaus.

You´d like that, wouldn´t you?  Wink/being sarcastic

No, sorry. I don´t care what religion someone subscribes to. The primary differences between them are based on superstition anyway. It´s a good thing they don´t have political power here any more.

And that´s one of the things immigrants and guests have to accept.

I´m not really surprised that Yyz717 has some trouble with the concept of an open and democratic society.  Wink/being sarcastic

But that is not the problem; Quite the opposite, it´s the only possible solution. The basic rules need to be enforced; Not conformist behaviour in every detail as Yyz proposed above.
 
MD-90
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RE: Germany Takes Steps To Integrate Muslims

Wed Dec 01, 2004 8:27 am

for good or bad! IMHO, I think it�s good..

With a socialist state, yes, it's a good thing. In a libertarian state (such as the US from the 18th to mid-19th centuries), easy immigration is not something to be feared.


But since high attendance levels at church (of any religion) generally imply an increased level of religiously motivated hatred and bigotry as well,

Somebody's demonstrating his ignorance today.
 
Klaus
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MD-90

Wed Dec 01, 2004 9:08 am

MD-90: Somebody's demonstrating his ignorance today.

I wish it were false. Unfortunately, experience in almost all societies has proven it to be true.
 
Marco
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RE: Germany Takes Steps To Integrate Muslims

Wed Dec 01, 2004 12:03 pm

Why is it so hard for you to answer my question with a direct YES or NO? Would you have said the same thing for Muslims? or not?

don´t have anything against the more enlightened religious people. But since high attendance levels at church (of any religion) generally imply an increased level of religiously motivated hatred and bigotry as well, I can only welcome the secularity of our society.

This is a generalization just like saying a society without religon is one where there are lots of broken families, crime, etc...

It is called ignorance Klaus, and for such an enlightened Euro as yourself I'm surprised you would sink to that  Insane
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MD-90
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RE: Germany Takes Steps To Integrate Muslims

Wed Dec 01, 2004 4:49 pm

I wish that you didn't type in bold so often to make your point.

That doesn't make it an invalid means of expressing yourself, however.
 
Andreas
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RE: Germany Takes Steps To Integrate Muslims

Wed Dec 01, 2004 5:38 pm

WOW!! A discussion, a real discussion, and not about Bush and Kerry...I want to join immediately  Big grin Big grin

Ok, a few points from a German who is pretty close to the problem since he's been living in Berlin for decades...me!

Many things have been said by co-Germans that are correct, there is one aspect though that has not been brought up:

The problem of so-called immigrant minorities building up ghettos that are breeding grounds for extremism is NOT a problem of Muslims only...in Germany one could come to the conclusion since there is virtually NO other religiously motivated minority in this country...Buddhism is fashionable among highly-educated people and breeds no extremism whatsoever...the other are non-existant.

But we see another immigrant problem that has no links to religion: In the past 15 years or so, there's been a steady inflow of Russians into Germany, as usual mostly to Berlin first...and we see some very heavy ghettoism there. Many kids, 15-18 years of age, do not speak German at all, crime rate is extremely high, and it is only now that people start talking about this being a problem, and very reluctantly so, since it is politically incorrect!!! Most of these Russians are so-called Russland-Deutsche, that is, people that are somehow related to German emigrants, POWs etc., and former Chancellor Kohl made it his personal point to invite those to come back "home"...an invitation that was highly appreciated of course.

What do we learn from this? Ghettos breed crime, be that of a religious nature or just plain crime, no matter if the reason for "ghetto-ification" is religously motivated or not. Of course everybody is looking right now at the muslims, and correctly so, given the latest examples of extremism...hopefully other problems are not forgotten over this.
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B747-437B
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RE: Germany Takes Steps To Integrate Muslims

Wed Dec 01, 2004 6:16 pm

I never hear of problems with Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists not integrating into Western countries.

Then you obviously aren't particularly well informed. Canada has some of the biggest example of the failure of other cultures to integrate. Take a trip up the 404 to Markham and have a look at the schools there where allegedly English speaking public school teachers instruct in Cantonese leaving the Anglophone minority to either suffer academically or attend private schools. Go over to British Columbia and ask the police about the various Indian gangs that exist as if in a parallel society from the mainstream. Not only does Canada tolerate this "multi-culturism" but also encourages it. That is why you wind up with terrorists like Ripudaman Malik and Ajaib Bagri being granted Canadian citizenship and using Canadian soil to launch attacks. This liberal Canadian immigration policy is tantamount to making Canada a state sponsor of terrorism.

an immigration bill based on Canadian immigration laws to control immigration, based on a point system concerning background, education, family etc..

It's a common misconception that the Canadian immigration system is a tightly controlled and effective setup that encourages professionals. In fact, less than 10% of Canadian immigrants qualify via the "Skilled Worker" category. The vast majority of Canadian immigrants are from the "Family Class", namely the impoverished relatives (as distant as uncles and aunts) of a recently immigrated Canadian who are allowed to piggy back their way from wretched third world countries into the Canadian welfare system. Heck, Canada takes in more "Refugees" than skilled workers nowadays.

I fault the US government for not pursuing assimilation policies towards Blacks after the abolition of slavery - Blacks could have been almost fully assimilated by now

The US Government's biggest mistake was not pursuing a policy of voluntary repatriation after the abolition of slavery. I am sure that plenty of former slaves would have jumped at the opportunity to return to Africa rather than live in a country where they continued to be treated as second-class citizens for over a century and arguably continue to be economically and politically disadvantaged as an ethnic minority.

Assimilation simply doesn't work. You can't dress a wolf in sheepskin and hope he starts going "baa". People and cultures are inherently different. Don't expect or even wish for people to conform to an open culture because they won't. The stronger cultural identity will always prevail, and unfortunately the stronger cultural identity tends to be the one least flexible to outside influence. That is not cultural progression.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
jaysit
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RE: Germany Takes Steps To Integrate Muslims

Thu Dec 02, 2004 2:30 am

The US Government's biggest mistake was not pursuing a policy of voluntary repatriation after the abolition of slavery.

They did. It was called Liberia, an experiment that started in the early 19th Century. By the time slavery was abolished, Liberia had already taken in nearly 80,000 freed slaves. But by the late 19th C, fewer black Americans wanted to go to Liberia. The cultural connections to Africa had been severed; these black Americans had their own cultural identity, distinct from Africa. For an analogy, look at Indians in South Africa. Even during the years of formal apartheid, few if any Indians would have wanted to go back to India. Indians in Durban have a very distinct South African identity now - even their food tastes different from any kind of Indian food you would have in India.

That is why you wind up with terrorists like Ripudaman Malik and Ajaib Bagri being granted Canadian citizenship and using Canadian soil to launch attacks.

That was 20 years ago.
A time when the Khalistan clap trap was in full swing.
Since 1986, Indian per capita income in Canada skyrocketed from being 17th to 4th. Family incomes moved from being 5th to 2nd. Income and educational levels are always good indicators of assimilation into the mainstream.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Germany Takes Steps To Integrate Muslims

Thu Dec 02, 2004 2:47 am

Jaysit,

But this means a willingness to integrate into the new country. While keeping e.g. their religion, people have to look forward and not always remember the "good old times" in their home villages (if the times were so good, why the f*ck did they leave them in first place?).
I had an argument with a "renegade" Sikh I was sharing a house with in Ireland (his family lived in Britain). Even though he wore his hair short and didn´t wear a turban, e.g. not very religious outwardly, first, he was constantly bitching about the British.
Secondly, since he had a teenage daughter, I asked him, what would happen if his daughter came with a British boyfriend. He said that he would be strictly against the relationship because he wanted her to marry within the religious and cultural group of the Sikhs.
Third, he was always praising Hitler, probably because he though he could win my friendship this way  Nuts. His main reason though, was that his opinion that Hitler was an enemy of Britain, therefore a friend of the Indians.
One thing I noticed was that whenever his wife (much younger than him and gorgeous!) came for a visit, he would try to hide her from us (myself, a Bulgarian, a Hungarian, an Ukrainian and an Englishman).

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
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RE: Germany Takes Steps To Integrate Muslims

Thu Dec 02, 2004 4:10 am

You're right about that Jan.

You have these first generation immigrants who want to preserve all their cultural traits, even though most have no place in the new parent culture.

This Sikh's tirade against his daughter dating a Brit notwithstanding, there are cases involving Pakistanis in the UK and Muslims in Scandinavia where these loony fathers end up murdering their daughters who have European boyfriends.

When I worked at a biotechnology firm, I had numerous first generation Indian colleagues, who while relatively progressive, were disturbed that their honor roll kids wanted to attend the high school prom. I had to always break the inevitable news to them that their kids were not Indian - they were American.

Its reasonable to expect that first generation immigrants will try and preserve some of their culture in their new country. All prior immigrants did it to some extent. But there is a big distinction between preferring samosas over hot dogs and refusing to embrace the overall notions of personal freedom that the West embodies.

He said that he would be strictly against the relationship because he wanted her to marry within the religious and cultural group of the Sikhs.

Well, many groups "prefer" that their offspring marry within their own racial, ethnic, or religious group. This applies equally to whites, blacks, Asians, etc or all ethnic and religious persuasions. Preference, however, is very different from being intolerant and abusive once you learn that your child has made his/her decision concerning a partner.
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