SlamClick
Topic Author
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Anti-Christian Euro-US - What Do You Believe In?

Fri Dec 03, 2004 1:49 am

Numerous anti-Christian and anti-religion postings here by people whose heritage is Christian has left me wondering this.

For starters I have not been to church in about fifty years, but recognize the Christian roots of my ancestry for maybe fifty generations. While not a religious person I am not anti-religion. We are all aware of the abuses of religious beliefs from the Inquisition to the present-day mess in the Middle East, but religion has also had civilizing influences too. So my question is really directed toward those of you who despise and disdain religion, tell me this.

What DO you believe? What do you value? Not so much a challenge but an intellectual curiosity. What are your ethical values and from what authority do they spring?





Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
gigneil
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RE: Anti-Christian Euro-US - What Do You Believe I

Fri Dec 03, 2004 2:07 am

I despise and disdain religion, both the actual thing and the organized crime its become. I can't even begin to describe everything I feel about this in a post on some aviation website, but I can put in a short synopsis.

On religion itself:

1) I just don't buy into an omnipotent, omnipresent being that just has always existed, never came from anywhere, and got bored so he created us. Its a fairy tale along the lines of the world being flat and smart women being witches.

2) Even if he did exist, I have no interest in the will of a megalomaniacal God that uses me at his pleasure for entertainment, then if I fuck up with "free will" condemns me to an eternity of suffering. That ain't love, nor does it even make sense.

3) I don't need the fear of eternal suffering in order to be a good person. There are millions of people in this world that would be terrible, horrible, evil people if they weren't afraid of burning in hell. I love my fellow man, and I do it because I want to.

4) If there was one correct religion, everyone would believe in it. The major religions we believe in today are mere children compared to some culture's spiritual beliefs.

On organized religion:

1) Churches, especially the Catholic church, bastardize the very message of their supposed God. They don't teach you God's will, they teach you the flawed will of one of the largest businesses in the world.

2) Churches teach hate.

As a result of their flawed teachings, organized religion turns perfectly nice people in to prejudiced bigots. I know lots of loving, caring religious people that hate gays because that's what they believe the Bible says, because that's what organized religion says.

The reality is that we're all sinners, according to the Bible, and Jesus died for those sins. Therefore even the dirty dirty gays are going to be fine in heaven.

3) Organized religion breeds terrorism and war. The leaders of some of the worst offenses in history were priests, or clerics, or missionaries. The Crusades is the classic example, the church killed or maimed a hundred million people looking for a damn cup. I won't even bother with more modern examples of religious zealotry, because I think we all are well versed on them.

4) Organized religion destroys culture. Missionaries and evangelical Christians have traveled the world, reaping the "good word" and ending the unique and beautiful societies of hundreds of races of people, especially in the third world. Its sad, and terrifying.


Bottom line: religion was a tool to instill values in simple, uneducated people in dark, unscientific eras of history.
 
SlamClick
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RE: Anti-Christian Euro-US - What Do You Believe In?

Fri Dec 03, 2004 2:14 am

Well Gigneil you either did not read the question or deliberately chose not to answer it.

We all know what people don't like about religion - it has been beaten to death around here. The question was and is; what DO YOU BELIEVE?

What are your ethical values?
From what authority do they spring?

Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
gigneil
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RE: Anti-Christian Euro-US - What Do You Believe I

Fri Dec 03, 2004 2:18 am

Hmm. Perhaps I just misinterpreted what you were asking, but I do think I answered it somewhat.

I don't have any particular moral code. I'm a good person. I'm strongly motivated to help other people. I obviously don't kill or maim people, or steal.

I simply evaluate my actions based on the benefit to myself or others, and the possible detriment to myself or others.

I don't know from what authority they spring. Good parenting?

N
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Anti-Christian Euro-US - What Do You Believe In?

Fri Dec 03, 2004 2:18 am

Slamclick,

I´m a Lutheran educated atheist ( I left church officially at the age of 22 after considering that I don´t believe in the teachings, which in Germany means going to the local courthouse and to declare your will to leave in writing, because among other things, in Germany, unique in the world, the government takes 5% of the church member´s income as church tax and passes it to their respective church administration. This applies to the mainstream protestants, Roman-Catholics and Jews.)
I´ve got no problem with religious persons, as long as they mind their own business (My first wife and my current girlfriend are both Roman-Catholic, my daughter has been raised as a Roman-Catholic, and my second wife started as a moderate Muslim, who turned into a born-again Christian. This was when the troubles started, because she wanted to convert me as well, and brought religion into every talk and decision at home.). I mind though, somebody forcing his religious ideas on me, let it be in a marriage, like my second ex, or e.g. a bishop using his power to influence legislation.

I know very well that European history is very closely connected to Christianity, both Roman-Catholic and Protestant, both in good as well as in bad, but for me it is history.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
mbmbos
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RE: Anti-Christian Euro-US - What Do You Believe In?

Fri Dec 03, 2004 3:17 am

I believe that children are the future; teach them well and let them let the way.

But seriously...

I find your question "...from what authority do they spring?" to be an interesting and possibly troubling one.

I suppose that my question back to you would be: why do I have to legitimze my beliefs/values to anybody? Is this what you mean? Must my convictions/values/beliefs reference some weighty model in order to have bus?

On the other hand, I would be willing to state that my convictions/beliefs/values are informed by rationalism, humanism, Christianity, Buddhism, Locke, Marx (Karl and Groucho), personal experience, personal inspiration, and most importantly, by Whitney Houston songs.

(I suspect that's what you mean by "authority"; it's just that I don't like the term as so many people these days are victims of hucksterism).

 
pilotaydin
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RE: Anti-Christian Euro-US - What Do You Believe In?

Fri Dec 03, 2004 3:18 am

i believe that humans are extremely selfish by nature and we naturally enjoy watching others suffer... humans are not forgiving to people they know, although we say we forgive, we still ALWAYS will have a bothersome feeling in the back of our heads after those words come out. A lot of us say, treat people how u want to be treated, but this is conditioning, i think we are animals, just ones that can challenge our own actions and thinking....I think that the rules of existence change as we evolve, i do not believe is a set of predetermined regulations nor morals....humans are very easy to influence, some issues take years and some seconds...
i think that as time goes on, keeping people religious will be difficult, in fact i believe some religions will cease to exist in the future...and if some of you are laughing you are entitled to your opinion. Maybe im growing older and it's always been like this...

i don't know what RIGHT and WRONG is...because we are animals... if it's wrong to kill your own kind...then most of the animal kingdom are murderers? but they are all natural...
of course i wouldnt kill anyone...so i dont wanna see replies with that rebuttal as a body.


The only time there is too much fuel onboard, is when you're on fire!
 
rjpieces
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RE: Anti-Christian Euro-US - What Do You Believe In?

Fri Dec 03, 2004 3:28 am

In response to Gigneil's rant, I find the views of Atheists no different than the views of Christians, Jews, Muslims, etc. Atheists BELIEVE that God doesn't exist and Gigneil more or less tries to force his views on others; it is no different than a Christian who BELIEVES that God does exist trying to force his views. Both views attempt to make a statement about the presence of God.

No religion is perfect and Neil does point out some of the rather negative aspects of some forms of Christianity. However, in no way do I support full secularization because I see that as just as bad as having a full religious state.

If more people followed "Thou Shalt Love Thy Neighbor as Thyself", perhaps one of the most important teachings of Jesus IMO, instead of preaching against homosexuality and abortion, the world would be a better place.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
gigneil
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RE: Anti-Christian Euro-US - What Do You Believe I

Fri Dec 03, 2004 3:34 am

Atheists BELIEVE that God doesn't exist and Gigneil more or less tries to force his views on others;

Ugh. Whatever, child.

You don't find me on planes to foreign countries trying to strip them of their god, and you didn't find anything in my post where I said anything about my personal evangelicism of atheist tenets.

Not believing in God is the opposite of a belief. Its like not believing in Santa Claus.

I believe people should believe what they want. Do I think less of them for it? Yes, usually. Do I still have full and utmost respect and love for those with religion as people? Sure I do.

N
 
rjpieces
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RE: Anti-Christian Euro-US - What Do You Believe In?

Fri Dec 03, 2004 3:41 am

You don't find me on planes to foreign countries trying to strip them of their god, and you didn't find anything in my post where I said anything about my personal evangelicism of atheist tenets.

Very true. But from your posts, you look down on people who believe in God, or any person who is religious for that matter.

Not believing in God is the opposite of a belief. Its like not believing in Santa Claus.

No Neil. Nobody on this planet has anyway to know about God. EVERY view about God, from Atheism to Islam, makes an assumption about God that nobody could possible prove. Atheism is as much of a religion (even if it's main tenet is anti-religion) as any of the major religions in my opinion.

I believe people should believe what they want. Do I think less of them for it? Yes, usually. Do I still have full and utmost respect and love for those with religion as people? Sure I do.

There you go. You think less of people who are religious. How are your views any different from whites who look down on foreigners, or any of a million other racist situations?
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
pilotaydin
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RE: Anti-Christian Euro-US - What Do You Believe In?

Fri Dec 03, 2004 3:50 am

it's not easy dealing within the median of semantics...i mean we use words to define other words...so perhaps when Gig says he thinks less of them, maybe he means just less of that topic, and not the entire existence of a person. In a free world, he is allowed to think less of who he wishes, because his moral reference may make that seem right to him, no one has a right to define anything for gig other than himself. Which is why issues will exist in the world forever.

RJ: you may be right in your view that he is looking down on someone, however much you do not like his view, it is his and you may not respect his view, but both must repsect who you are.
The only time there is too much fuel onboard, is when you're on fire!
 
gigneil
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RE: Anti-Christian Euro-US - What Do You Believe I

Fri Dec 03, 2004 3:53 am

How are your views any different from whites who look down on foreigners, or any of a million other racist situations?

Oh, please. People don't like everything. I have a preference for potatoes and carrots, but I don't care for peas or broccoli. That doesn't mean I dislike the people that grow them.

You evaluate people based on personal preference. I don't care for selfish or shallow people, but that doesn't mean that I'm prejudiced against them. I think less of people that wear Birkenstocks with socks, but I don't have a hateful condition against them.

There's also the default answer that the things you listed are outside the person's control.

Finally, as an American, I would glady make huge sacrifices to secure the rights of members of religion to practice their beliefs.

N
 
TACAA320
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RE: Anti-Christian Euro-US - What Do You Believe In?

Fri Dec 03, 2004 4:18 am

Here it is:

We believe (I believe) in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, and born of the Father before all ages. (God of God) light of light, true God of true God. Begotten not made, consubstantial to the Father, by whom all things were made. Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven. And was incarnate of the Holy Ghost and of the Virgin Mary and was made man; was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, suffered and was buried; and the third day rose again according to the Scriptures. And ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father, and shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead, of whose Kingdom there shall be no end. And (I believe) in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father (and the Son), who together with the Father and the Son is to be adored and glorified, who spoke by the Prophets. And one holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. We confess (I confess) one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for (I look for) the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen.

Nothing more, nothing less...
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
pilotaydin
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RE: Anti-Christian Euro-US - What Do You Believe In?

Fri Dec 03, 2004 4:25 am

what's the difference between a lord and a god? because if there is non...that makes it 2 gods...GOD, and Jesus? im confused.
The only time there is too much fuel onboard, is when you're on fire!
 
ScarletHarlot
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RE: Anti-Christian Euro-US - What Do You Believe In?

Fri Dec 03, 2004 4:44 am

To state my beliefs, first: I believe in God. I believe that Jesus existed, but not necessarily that he was the son of God or God and I don't believe the only way to "heaven" is through Jesus. I believe that he did good works and that he is to be admired. I have feelings of awe for the Christmas story of Jesus' birth. I believe that Mohammed existed and that he did good works and that he is to be admired. Whatever your religion is, if it causes you to behave in a kind, generous, loving way to your fellow man, that, to me, is a beautiful thing. I do not go to church. I have not been baptized. I do not know if there is an afterlife, although I tend to believe there is.

As for how I got there: My dad was Anglican and my mom belongs to the United Church of Canada (which I believe is the combination of the Presbyterian and Methodist churches). My dad became sick of what he saw as the hypocrisy of the Anglican church. He grew up in a coal mining community and when the pay packets were distributed the miners would go out, spend their money on drink, and beat up their wives. Then they would go to church and all would be forgiven and it would happen again next week. He always said that people like Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker would get a surprise when they met up with God. I am quite certain I picked up my dislike of organized religion from him.

So where did I get my morals? I think Gigneil said it best:

I don't need the fear of eternal suffering in order to be a good person. There are millions of people in this world that would be terrible, horrible, evil people if they weren't afraid of burning in hell. I love my fellow man, and I do it because I want to.

Being a good, kind person is just the right thing to do. I treat people like I would want to be treated. I think if you are generally a good person - no matter what your religion (and this is where I get most frustrated with some Christians) - you get to go on to whatever is next. But the main motivation for being a good person should be just to be a good person. Not some reward that we don't even know exists.

I definitely respect all religions, although I may not agree with their beliefs. I do not believe there is just one way to God. I think religions that believe that are arrogant. You mean to tell me that millions or billions of good Muslims or good Hindus or good people who have no religion are going to hell just because they don't believe in Jesus? The God I believe in is not as narrowminded as that.

I had a couple of dreams in my life that I'd classify as religious and that have always given me a warm feeling. When I was about eight or nine I dreamed that I met God and that he gave me a big hug and it was one of the best hugs I'd ever had. I also had a beautiful dream after my dad died. For months after he died I'd dream about him every night and in every dream he would die. Then, one night I had this dream that the phone rang and it was my dad. He was dead, but he was in the afterlife and he was given one chance to make contact with someone. He chose to phone me, and we laughed about him choosing that method because he had worked for the phone company. We spoke and he told me he was okay and that Uncle Arthur and Uncle Rod and all his loved ones were there and that he would see me and my mom when it was our turn. I bawled my eyes out in the dream but felt so good that I had talked to him. When I woke up I bawled my eyes out some more but felt so good and peaceful...so who is not to say that that was my dad's one chance, that he was somewhere and let me know he's okay? So, I guess I do believe in an afterlife of some form. I believe I'll see my dad again, one day. At least, I hope so.
But that was when I ruled the world
 
jasepl
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RE: Anti-Christian Euro-US - What Do You Believe In?

Fri Dec 03, 2004 4:51 am

I do kind of have a Christian heritage as well as a Hindu one, I guess. But I was brought up without religion playing any role in life. My parents' theory was basically that you should be a good person. Everything else will take care of itself. If, when I grew up, I felt I wanted or needed some sort of religious affiliation, that was a choice they left to me.

And for 27 years, I have tried to follow that - tried to be a good person. And everything else has taken care of itself. And I haven't ever felt the need for any religious affirmation.

Things have worked out quite well, I would say.
 
gigneil
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RE: Anti-Christian Euro-US - What Do You Believe I

Fri Dec 03, 2004 5:07 am

Nothing more, nothing less...

Great. You explained nothing, but rattled off a bunch of buzzwords.

I know few people that can explain what their belief means to them, they just believe it because they were told to and think they have to.

N
 
L.1011
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RE: Anti-Christian Euro-US - What Do You Believe In?

Fri Dec 03, 2004 6:12 am

Let me post my random thoughts (some my thoughts, some ideas of others that I agree with) on various religious issues.

Morality
Morality is relative to individual circumstances and relationships. Any action's ultimate rightness or wrongness can only be determined by those involved in the action. Good and evil are ideas that can be useful, but are inaccurate if used to describe the nature of the universe.

A practical morality can be derived from reason without the need to appeal to religious revelation and church dogma.

Humans are too innately noble to require supernatural coercion and threats of eternal damnation to behave morally.

Reject divinely inspired ethical and moral codes in favor of codes derived by reason from the human condition.

Moral values derive their source from human experience.

Some religions promote the idea that perfectly natural feelings (such as anger, lust, pride, wanting things) are evil and sinful. But feelings are not normally under conscious control. The result can be debilitating feelings of guilt where none should be present.

To live in a state of fear is unhealthy.

Indulgence, not abstinence. God put the “sinful” things here for our enjoyment, not as some kind of silly divine test.

Do unto others as they do onto you.

Need no elaborate, detailed list of rules of behavior.

Sexual enjoyment, from masturbation to intercourse is considered a gift of God. It is an activity that is to be thoroughly enjoyed as a major focus of one's life.

Governing Forces
All life is free to develop in the universe, limited in potential only by the physical laws of nature.

There exists an objective reality; science is the tool to decipher it. That reality also applies to the nature of the human animal.

Miracles do not happen. The world operates by natural and self-sustaining laws of the creator.

Human beings possess the power and responsibility to shape their own lives independent of supernatural authority.

Full responsibility for the future of the world, its political systems, its ecology, etc. rests with humans. There is no God in heaven to intervene and save us from a disaster.

God does not intervene in the scientific, moral, religious, or technological progress of men, but does reward those who makes accomplishments which help humanity, and those who use the accomplishments to help humanity, and also punishes those who make evil progress, or use good or evil progress as a vehicle to further evil deeds.

Humanity
Each person, because of her/his humanity inherently has dignity and worth.

Social structures such as governments and institutions are useful insofar as they help individuals to flourish - that is, become and remain healthy, happy and able to work toward their goals that do not interfere with the rights of other individuals to work toward their own goals.

Life is governed by the concepts of democracy, religious freedom and religious tolerance.

The preciousness and dignity of the individual person

Accept democracy and reject both theocracy and secular dictatorships as political systems that are dangerous to individual freedoms.

Value freedom of inquiry, expression and action.

Combat bigotry, hatred, discrimination, intolerance and censorship.

Support separation of church and state.

Reliance on God's will reduces our motivation to solve our own problems on earth. This leads to many social evils being neglected.

Spirituality
Each person seeks his/her unique spiritual path, based upon their personal life experience, the use of reason, the findings of science and her/his fundamental beliefs concerning deity, humanity, and the rest of the universe.

All the great religions of the world, and their sacred texts, have worth.

Creation
God created the universe, wound it up and then disassociated himself from his creation.

Reject a created world in favor of the theory of evolution and a universe that obeys natural laws.

Worship
One cannot access God through any organized religion, set of beliefs, rituals, sacraments or other practice.

Prayer is useless; it distracts people from useful activity.

Non-Evangelism

Every man and woman has direct access to God; no priestly class or place of worship are needed

There is no need in one's religious life for elaborate ceremonies, rituals, gowns, creeds, or dogma.

Other Religions
God has not selected a chosen people (e.g. Jews or Christians) to be the recipients of any special revelation or gifts.

Deities and other supernatural beings
The Trinity does not exist. Jesus was a philosopher, rabbi, teacher and healer, and above all, messenger of God, but not his son.

Supernatural beings such as angels, demons, Satan, Holy Spirit do not exist.

The existence of some form of deity can be proven by reason.

Jesus Christ was incarnated, crucified, and resurrected, led a sinless life, and was atoned.

God holds a human form, but we do not know his race or gender…until we meet him in Heaven.

Knowledge
Value knowledge based on reason and hard evidence rather than on faith.

Afterlife
The good and bad deeds that we do add and subtract from our accumulated record. At the end of our life, we are rewarded or punished according to our record.

Those who were good in life ascend to Heaven, a place of eternal reward and freedom, where all are free to do what they please; those who were not descend to Hell. Hell is a place of moderate suffering. Hell is not a pleasant experience, but it would be a survivable experience on Earth for the amount of days most people would spend there. However, once the good deeds resulting from their good deeds exceed their bad deeds, they ascend to Heaven.

Original Sin does not exist, all people posses Original Neutrality at conception.

PRACTICES

There are no formal practices. Active worship is not necessary, and the path to Heaven is paved with only good deeds, not meaningless rituals. Religion should not be in conscious thought, only performing good deeds to forward society and the world.

Christmas, Easter, New Years, Halloween, and the Solstices are simply festivals. They are acknowledged as holy days, but should be observed not through religious thought or action, but celebration, trading of gifts, feasting, etc.
 
slider
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RE: Anti-Christian Euro-US - What Do You Believe In?

Fri Dec 03, 2004 8:48 am

I believe in God, family, and the Green Bay Packers.

 Smile

I am a recovering Catholic myself, and don't believe in much of a church's dogma and institutionalized religion. I do believe in fellowship, however, which has a value of its own (ie: Bible studies, retreats, etc).

Beyond that, I believe the root of any society is based on the value of the individual and affirmed by a contract of unified principles and rights (ie: the American Constitution). These rights are granted by God.

I believe that ultimately when diplomacy fails, force prevails. Always has, always will.

I believe stealing is wrong, government is too big.

I believe self-sacrifice and self-interests can mutually co-exist.

I believe in right and wrong, and also would state that the rampant moral relativism is our modern Western society is destructive.

 
TACAA320
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RE: Anti-Christian Euro-US - What Do You Believe In?

Fri Dec 03, 2004 10:56 am

"Great. You explained nothing, but rattled off a bunch of buzzwords.

I know few people that can explain what their belief means to them, they just believe it because they were told to and think they have to."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
I explained nothing? NO. YOU don't understand nothing!

'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
MD-90
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RE: Anti-Christian Euro-US - What Do You Believe In?

Fri Dec 03, 2004 11:06 am

In other words, L.1011 doesn't believe in much of anything besides some pretty words that make up a feel-good philosophy. Oh, and that God does exist. That's about all that I could discern from that long post.



So, does anyone care to define how we know what goodness is? How do we know what's right and what's wrong? Alpha 1 believes that there we have evolved rules, like not committing murder, because it helps ensure the survival of the species. Unfortunately, those arguments have serious breaches of logic in them.
 
LHMark
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RE: Anti-Christian Euro-US - What Do You Believe In?

Fri Dec 03, 2004 11:10 am

Just to play Devil's advocate for a moment, MD90, Moses recieveing 10 commandments on stone tablets from the heavens isn't particulalry logical, either.
"Sympathy is something that shouldn't be bestowed on the Yankees. Apparently it angers them." - Bob Feller
 
TACAA320
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RE: Anti-Christian Euro-US - What Do You Believe In?

Fri Dec 03, 2004 11:56 am

What you called a "a bunch of buzzwords" is the Catholic creed.

Apparently too difficult to understand for you.
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
jmc1975
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RE: Anti-Christian Euro-US - What Do You Believe In?

Fri Dec 03, 2004 11:57 am

TACAA320,
You hit the nail perfectly on the head! and I understood you perfectly!  Smile

Gigneil,
I'm really sorry you think of TACA's post as a bunch of buzzwords. I know you are intelligent and highly educated, but even in my Aspergian brain, he made perfect sense. BTW, I say Aspergian as a discriptive term of one with Asperger's Syndrome....I can't seem to articulate well, nor am I able to read into things. Everything has to pretty much be black and white to me.
.......
 
gigneil
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RE: Anti-Christian Euro-US - What Do You Believe I

Fri Dec 03, 2004 12:52 pm

He listed the names of items he believes in.

He did not explain what they were, nor what his spiritual connection is to them that makes him believe in them.

He didn't explain his personal reasoning for anything.

Writing a creed is not explaining one's personal faith. Its rote memorization.

N
 
flyboy1980
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RE: Anti-Christian Euro-US - What Do You Believe In?

Fri Dec 03, 2004 2:49 pm

Long ago when the church and state were one and the same, instilling fear in the masses enabled the church to control them. The peasants were kept busy in the field, obeying "god" while the rulers lined their pockets with the fruits of the poor people's labour.

Unfortunately, most humans have a high degree of education and simply doing as we are told does not sit well with most of us.

I am an atheist. I do not believe in any gods, religion, nor the concept of the soul or spirituality.

I am a good person - I donate to charity, I am polite to people, I support my friends and family, I am honest and do not steal, I work hard at my job etc.

I derive great pleasure from simply being a human - being aware of my own existence and participating in the world and the universe. I believe life came about through a a complex series of evolutions, from the "big bang" to the split between the great apes and man.

Gigneil hit it on the head. As a rational, educated human being I find it so extremely difficult to believe that a omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient being would derive such great pleasure from causing human beings pain. Why would such a great being not be able to look into the hearts of people and judge them? - and why would this being want to judge us? What purpose would that serve? Many an atrocity has been committed in the name of the church - as long as you apologise for doing something awful it's no problem.

Yet, if I live my life as a good person who denies the existence of "god" due to the overwhelming LACK of evidence, should I be proved wrong, I would be punished, regardless of my actions during my life.

Applying the word FAITH to religion is extremely apt - it means "belief in the absence of evidence". As humans, we crave proof. If "god" is so powerful, why can it not give us all a sign? Provide real hope to people instead of hiding up their, playing a real life version of "The Sims".
 
yukimizake
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RE: Anti-Christian Euro-US - What Do You Believe In?

Fri Dec 03, 2004 4:29 pm

For non-catholics that catholic creed is simply references to dubious ancient fables passed down for thousands of years. Unless you have been exposed and indoctrinated from a young age it will not mean much to you. Nothing more, nothing less.

Getting back to the posters original question, the idea of treating people the way I would like to be treated is basically what I believe, to me this is plain and simple common sense. Having said that, I also agree with what Mbmbos said in reply #5 "Why do I have to legitimze my beliefs/values to anybody?"
'Opfer müssen gebracht werden (Sacrifices must be made)' - Otto Lilienthal
 
commander_rabb
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RE: Anti-Christian Euro-US - What Do You Believe In?

Fri Dec 03, 2004 4:48 pm

Bottom line: religion was a tool to instill values in simple, uneducated people in dark, unscientific eras of history.

Thanks for the insult. I am sure that the billions of people who follow a religion are all like this in your mind.

I am also sure that you have insulted those who are close to you both in your personal and professional life.

Nice going. I am glad there are not too many people like you in your narrow-minded tolerance. But you know what? I will say a prayer for you and there is nothing you can do to persecute me or people who think like me. Nothing.

Nice to always take the high ground in civility and manners. You should do the same and chose your words wisely in this forum.

 
JeepBoy
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RE: Anti-Christian Euro-US - What Do You Believe In?

Fri Dec 03, 2004 4:53 pm


I don't believe in any religion, I believe in myself.

JB
*yay*
 
flyboy1980
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RE: Anti-Christian Euro-US - What Do You Believe In?

Fri Dec 03, 2004 7:35 pm

Commander_Rabb - are you quoting me? If so, that's not quite what I said.

If so, I was referring to religion in old times - and I mean almost all religions, not just Christianity.

Everyday I hear "gay" used as an insult and in many laws I am discriminated against simply because of my sexual orientation. I have experienced intolerance, ridicule and abuse all my life for something I have no control over. Try living with that on a daily basis.

Most people I know are not religious - about 1 million New Zealanders (25% of our population) stated in the last census (1999) that they do not identify with any religion. Less than 20% of the entire population attends a church of some kind on a regular (about once a month) basis.

People are free to choose their own religion and that is their right (which should always be defended) - what I don't appreciate are the types that attempt to force their religious dogma, whatever that may be, on everyone else. I am glad that religion is important to your life. But those who take it too far, I have no time for.
 
aloges
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RE: Anti-Christian Euro-US - What Do You Believe In?

Fri Dec 03, 2004 9:49 pm

I do believe in most of the ethic principles promoted by Christianity; for the record, I am a member of the Lutheran church. To me, the most important principle is "love your next as you love yourself" or whatever it is in English. That combined with a saying I heard a while ago, it went like "true love is when you don't judge people" are the basic foundations of what I believe in. Everyone should be given a second chance, no matter how bad he behaved that evening you met him. OK, exceptions can/should be made "for" people like Osama bin Laden and a few others who are really notorious about screwing other people's lives up, but you don't meet those chaps on a daily basis anyway, do you?

A different, yet no less important principle I do believe in is that of a constitutional state. There's an impressive case going on in Germany right now; a high-position member of the Frankfurt police threatened a kidnapper and then suspected (now convictable) murderer to have him physically harmed in case he did not tell "where the kid was". Sure, it may sound right when you first hear it, but it's threatening torture. I don't have any sympathy for the murderer, but if that policeman had "got away with it", what would happen in the future? People getting tortured for not telling who they voted for? Even if it's painful at times, we must adhere to human rights - and those, even murderers, child rapers and serial killers do have. It's also in the Bible, if you care, remember the story of Jesus and Maria Magdalena? In those times, adultery was probably as bad as murder, so this story is an obvious argument in favour of human rights.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
TACAA320
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RE: Anti-Christian Euro-US - What Do You Believe In?

Fri Dec 03, 2004 9:52 pm

"He listed the names of items he believes in.

He did not explain what they were, nor what his spiritual connection is to them that makes him believe in them.

He didn't explain his personal reasoning for anything.

Writing a creed is not explaining one's personal faith. Its rote memorization."

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gigneil

This thread's name is "Anti-Christian Euro-US - What Do You Believe In?"

I clearly state What Do I Believe In.

The question, once again is What, not Why!!!!!!!!!!

So I don't see WHY do I have to legitimize my beliefs to YOU? I only do that to GOD.
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
yukimizake
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RE: Anti-Christian Euro-US - What Do You Believe In?

Fri Dec 03, 2004 10:27 pm

The question was directed at non-religious people.

"So my question is really directed toward those of you who despise and disdain religion, tell me this.

What DO you believe? What do you value? Not so much a challenge but an intellectual curiosity. What are your ethical values and from what authority do they spring?"




'Opfer müssen gebracht werden (Sacrifices must be made)' - Otto Lilienthal
 
TACAA320
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RE: Anti-Christian Euro-US - What Do You Believe In?

Fri Dec 03, 2004 10:28 pm

"Writing a creed is not explaining one's personal faith."

Practicing what it says, is the important thing [for the people who believe in that Creed, that are millions and millions]. You may write it, memorize it, but if you don't PRACTICE it is worthless.

I just add that Creed as part [very important one] of my life.
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
TACAA320
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RE: Anti-Christian Euro-US - What Do You Believe In?

Sat Dec 04, 2004 2:32 am

"
I don't believe in any religion, I believe in myself.
"

-------------------------------------------------

Hope you don´t be disappointed anytime soon  Big grin
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Anti-Christian Euro-US - What Do You Believe I

Sat Dec 04, 2004 3:03 am

Some years ago I had an argument with my daughter´s Roman-Catholic religion teacher in primary school.
She complained that my daughter (at this time 7-8 years old) was asking to many questions. According to the teacher she should just memorise the teachings and blindly accept them.

Jan

Edit for orthographical error

[Edited 2004-12-03 19:04:06]
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
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solnabo
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RE: Anti-Christian Euro-US - What Do You Believe In?

Sat Dec 04, 2004 4:21 am

The churches here are almost empty exept X-mas, Easter and Lucia (13 Dec)

Guess swedes arent that religous and thats fine w me

Micke//SE  Innocent
Airbus SAS - Love them both
 
TACAA320
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RE: Anti-Christian Euro-US - What Do You Believe In?

Sat Dec 04, 2004 5:27 am

"According to the teacher she should just memorise the teachings and blindly accept them."

She was obviously wrong, and you were right. RR church teach us to practice the principles of our faith, not to memorized them.

"Guess swedes arent that religous ..."

We know that from decades. It's not definitely new.


'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein

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