theCoz
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Your Gut Feeling On Iraq?

Tue Dec 07, 2004 12:46 pm

I'm not looking for facts or answers. Just write down your gut feeling on the direction of the country.


I feel cautiously optimistic. I'm very cautious about thier future, but very optimistic. I feel like the Iraqi people will make the right choices.
 
pilotaydin
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RE: Your Gut Feeling On Iraq?

Tue Dec 07, 2004 12:48 pm

i think the people will make good choices, but execution of these choices will be difficult. I think in about 5-10 years it will be a bit more stable, i still think 1000s are going to die, regardless of nationality  Sad
The only time there is too much fuel onboard, is when you're on fire!
 
dl021
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RE: Your Gut Feeling On Iraq?

Tue Dec 07, 2004 12:50 pm

I think that the people will eventually see that the path of democracy offers them hope and a real future, and that the radical fundamentalists offer them nothing but fear and hatred.

The more the terrorists keep killing innocents the more resistance will arise against the terrorists, especially when more clerics gather their courage and call down the terrorists and lead the people in resisting them.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
pilotaydin
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RE: Your Gut Feeling On Iraq?

Tue Dec 07, 2004 12:55 pm

i am sure iraq will be fine one day, it has oil, but i am worried, that insurgents wil move over to another country and base there over time...and the cycle starts again...
The only time there is too much fuel onboard, is when you're on fire!
 
jaysit
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RE: Your Gut Feeling On Iraq?

Tue Dec 07, 2004 1:14 pm

I think that Iraq will spinter into 3 nations in about 4 years: the southern Shia, the northern kurds, while the Sunnis will continue to battle the beleagured US for decades while forging an anti-US force with the Shia.

Basically, Iraq is F---d.

The Kurds have the best chance at success, and given that Turkey wants to be a part of the EU, it will duct tape its mouth and give in to an evolving concept of Kurdistan.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
Shawn Patrick
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RE: Your Gut Feeling On Iraq?

Tue Dec 07, 2004 1:43 pm

When all is said and done, I think we're going to step back and wonder what the whole purpose was, and regret the whole thing, regardless of the outcome.

Honestly, the world and the U.S. still hasn't recovered from the shock of 9/11. The fear is still there, the word "terrorist" still evokes a deep emotion and fear in most of the people, and everyone still wants to "go git 'em." That's why it still seems like our "moral duty" to "spread democracy around the world" or some lofty fluff like that.

But come on people! We are clearly in an irrational state of mind now. Most people don't even have a level of common courtesy. Most people couldn't care less about a murder seen on the 5PM news. Most people couldn't care less if that jackass driver in front of them dropped dead right now. Most people wouldn't be very fazed if one of their neighbors dropped dead. Yet we care about something as lofty as giving Iraqis freedom, people we have never met and know nothing about??? You can't even say "hi" to someone passing you on the street but you want to give some ragheads their freedom, and pay for it with thousands of American lives - that's right, people of your own kind. Obviously, that is not rational at all.

But this lofty, highly moral platform is going to come crashing down one day. When the fear of terrorism and muslims and middle easterners dies down (meaning, when the world re-learns how to evaluate threats rationally), we're going to see the Iraq war as very costly and just plain stupid, regardless of the outcome there. The moral face is a hard one to keep up - inevitably, we'll slip back into our self-centered human tendencies...

Humans are inherently self-centered, and Americans are certainly not exempt from that fallacy. So, when the world regains its senses, we're going to say, "who the hell cares if some small desert country is free and democratic? My (insert family member) is dead so some ragheads can be free?" "Who the hell cares if Iraqis are free? Gas prices went up all during the war and I couldn't buy that gas guzzling Land Rover, I couldn't afford it. Stupid ragheads."

Sounds at lot like Vietnam. "Who the fuck really cares if some slanty-eyed country is communist? I don't want my children dying for their democracy."

Mark my words.

[Edited 2004-12-07 05:44:55]
 
Marco
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RE: Your Gut Feeling On Iraq?

Tue Dec 07, 2004 1:45 pm

Jaysit let's not forget the Assyrians who also have a small chunk of Northern Iraq.
Proud to be an Assyrian!
 
57AZ
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RE: Your Gut Feeling On Iraq?

Tue Dec 07, 2004 1:57 pm

Word from the Discovery/Times Page One is that the information that is being given to the White House is very pessimistic. Doesn't sound good at the moment. Arizona is still digesting the latest reports from the Army-evidently Tilman was killed by friendly fire.
"When a man runs on railroads over half of his lifetime he is fit for nothing else-and at times he don't know that."
 
vafi88
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RE: Your Gut Feeling On Iraq?

Tue Dec 07, 2004 2:00 pm

My gut feeling?

It's complete and total bullsh!t - we should've never gone in, then maybe a whole lot more people would have been alive - on BOTH SIDES.
I'd like to elect a president that has a Higher IQ than a retarted ant.
 
b757300
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RE: Your Gut Feeling On Iraq?

Tue Dec 07, 2004 2:13 pm

Despite what the Lame Stream Media, such as the New York Slimes, want us to believe, the situation in Iraq will continue to improve. The terrorists know that their time is limited and because of that they're going to try and cause as much death and destruction as possible while they still have time. The Iraqi people know that they have a chance for a better future and most will not let a bunch of thugs and foreign terrorists ruin it.
"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
 
Shawn Patrick
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RE: Your Gut Feeling On Iraq?

Tue Dec 07, 2004 2:26 pm

Right, B757300, and what makes you care about Iraqis so much?
 
Superfly
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RE: Your Gut Feeling On Iraq?

Tue Dec 07, 2004 2:27 pm

I have always been against the war in Iraq and it's a problem Bush has to deal with.
Jenna Bush and her sister should be dragged off to Iraq also.
All who voted for Bush should have there kids sent off to Iraq to fight in that war.

That's my gut feeling.
Bring back the Concorde
 
57AZ
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RE: Your Gut Feeling On Iraq?

Tue Dec 07, 2004 2:29 pm

Much as I hate to say it, Iraq is fast becoming my generation's Vietnam. I had a very interesting discussion with a friend of mine who spent his career in the Air Force, did time as a SAC missile commander and then worked for the Army as a civilian contractor. His general observation was that the quality of our military leadership has steadily declined at the top and we both were afraid that while Iraq was and is a valid fight, our leadership would make the same mistakes they did in Vietnam. There we went in with a broad, poorly defined goal and no exit plan. Not only did our leadership choose to do the same in Iraq but they chose to do so at a time when it would potentially overextend our military resources. Worse, it has allowed Al-Quaeda to reorganize since we have not been able to focus our attention 100% on them, as we should have. Iraq was nicely contained by the Saudis and its other nations and should have been left in that situation until we had the upper hand with the Al-Quaeda problem. Our intelligence was never geared towards a major conflict in the Middle East, the terrorists knew that and we are paying for that now. I do belive that things will eventually improve for the Iraqi citizens. The only question is how long it will take and what our situation will be in the end of the long haul.
"When a man runs on railroads over half of his lifetime he is fit for nothing else-and at times he don't know that."
 
jaysit
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RE: Your Gut Feeling On Iraq?

Tue Dec 07, 2004 2:30 pm

Despite what the Lame Stream Media, such as the New York Slimes, want us to believe, the situation in Iraq will continue to improve.

Why thank you, Dr. Brothers.

Will J.Lo and Ben Affleck reunite in 2005 as well?
Will the Olson twins be recaptured by aliens and sent off to the planet Zog?
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
StevenUhl777
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RE: Your Gut Feeling On Iraq?

Tue Dec 07, 2004 2:32 pm

I also remain cautiously optimistic.

That said, it will all come down to the people. Do they want to take the chance that an extremist could once again take control and face torture and genocide again, or do they want to take a chance at stability and have a shot at a real future?

Remember that before Saddam started raping the country's natural resources, Iraq was a first world country...they were doing well and the people were educated. Then, Saddam came in and everything went downhill in the course of 8 years. He had to go...anyone who gasses his own people is justification alone for regime change and an invasion to accomplish that purpose. It was because of the (always) weak UN that there wasn't enough courage to do it in 1991. Bush Sr. wanted to do it, but knew other allies weren't brave enough to take on the challenge, so he had no choice to back down. Imagine if we had taken the same liberal, anti-war attitude in 1941 and allowed the Nazis to remain in power?

It will take a while...5-10-15 years, if not longer. Another mid-east dictatorship needs to fall very quickly...namely Iran...in order for people to get the message that extremism can't and won't be tolerated.

And the winner for best actress is....REESE WITHERSPOON for 'Walk the Line'!!!!!!!!
 
yukimizake
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RE: Your Gut Feeling On Iraq?

Tue Dec 07, 2004 2:37 pm

Lets say they have their elections and they choose an Iraqi government, this government will always be viewed as a puppet of the US and insurgency will continue. In the future, the moment an Iraqi administration takes an anti-US stance and threatens the stability of the flow of oil they will be demonized as a rogue nation and the US move in again.

Actually, there's no reason why Iraq should continue to exist. It was created by the British, French and Americans after WWI, colonial powers simply drawing lines on a map then announcing this new country Iraq. It would make more sense, as Jaysit suggests, for 3 countries to emerge, one for the Kurds, the Shi'a Muslims and the Sunni Muslims. Also, after the US abandoned the Shi'a Muslims, leaving them to the mercy of Saddam after the first gulf war, their hated of the US will remain for years to come.
'Opfer müssen gebracht werden (Sacrifices must be made)' - Otto Lilienthal
 
dragon-wings
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RE: Your Gut Feeling On Iraq?

Tue Dec 07, 2004 2:41 pm

My gut feeling on Iraq right now is that we will be there for a very very long time.
Don't give up don't ever give up - Jim Valvano
 
jaysit
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RE: Your Gut Feeling On Iraq?

Tue Dec 07, 2004 2:41 pm

Remember that before Saddam started raping the country's natural resources, Iraq was a first world country...they were doing well and the people were educated.

Iraq was NEVER a First World country.

If anything, the Baathists under Saddam liberated Iraqi women of Islamic modes of dress, behavior, etc. The liberation of women was up on the Baathist agenda because they were nominally secular rulers.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
StevenUhl777
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RE: Your Gut Feeling On Iraq?

Tue Dec 07, 2004 2:59 pm

It was never a superpower, no....but it was in MUCH better shape economically and socially than it was at the time Saddam was justifiably forced out of power.

Quality of life in Iraq took a huge hit during 8 years of war and from Saddam's pillaging of the country. It's estimated he STOLE $21 BILLION from the country during that time.
And the winner for best actress is....REESE WITHERSPOON for 'Walk the Line'!!!!!!!!
 
Falcon84
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RE: Your Gut Feeling On Iraq?

Wed Dec 08, 2004 12:32 pm

Well, the CIA is telling Bush what it thinks, so next time you hear Bush or Cheney or Condi telling you how good Iraq is, you now they're lying, becuase the intel their receiving paints a different picture:

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/12/07/iraq.cia/index.html

Bush has put in motion a disaster, and his administration can't find a way out.

I think that the people will eventually see that the path of democracy offers them hope and a real future

I think you've been drinking way too much GOP-flavord Kool-Aid. They don't WANT democracy as we have it. They want an Islamic government, and that's what will end up there. Stop this pie-in-the-sky fantasy that Bush is feeding you.

Despite what the Lame Stream Media, such as the New York Slimes

Typical B757300. He can't discuss anything like an adult, and everyone he doesn't agree with, he slurs. Maybe you'll grow up someday, but I doubt it.

... the situation in Iraq will continue to improve.

CONTINUE? It isn't improving at all, and you believe all the shit Bush feeds you, don't you? The CIA is telling Bush the exact opposite, so why don't you start calling them names, too?

All you conservatives who believe the tripe you hear from Bush, if you're so damn optimistic, you go there and help them, and then tell me how optimistic you are then? You're being fed a line of bull, and like good little conservatives, you believe what your master tells you, without question.

This is a nightmare in the process, and we've virtually destroyed that nation, and you want us to be optimistic and proud of what's been achieved? Not in this lifetime.

But keep your blinders on, if it makes you feel better about this damn war. Over a thousand of your countrymen have lost their lives, and lost them for absolutely nothing.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
prosa
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RE: Your Gut Feeling On Iraq?

Wed Dec 08, 2004 12:53 pm

My gut feeling is that there will be some type of partition. It is less and less likely that Iraq can stay together as a cohesive nation, indeed it's only been a single nation for a relatively short time. The upcoming election will probably make this clear, with most people in the Sunni areas boycotting the vote.
I see two possible alternatives. The first, which has been mentioned earlier in this thread, has the Sunni, Shiite and Kurdish regions as separate countries. While that's possible, I believe it's more likely that the Shiite and Kurdish regions will find enough common ground to stay together as the (reduced) Republic of Iraq. The restive Sunni region will be odd man out, and given its higher degree of Islamic militancy and lack of oil resources it probably will be a very nasty place indeed, dirt-poor and full of angry Islamofascists. Moreover, this partition will require massive relocations, as the populations are not wholly within their own regions, with a great deal of human misery as a result. American troops will stay for another year or so and then leave.
I guess you could say this is a "half-full/half-empty" result. It won't be a total disaster, as the Kurdish and Shiite regions (or the union of those two regions) may end up reasonably prosperous and stable, though Iranian meddling in the Shiite zone is a concern. But as mentioned, the Sunni region is likely to be an impoverished hotbed of militancy and terrorism.
"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
 
JBirdAV8r
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RE: Your Gut Feeling On Iraq?

Wed Dec 08, 2004 1:12 pm

I think you've been drinking way too much GOP-flavord Kool-Aid. They don't WANT democracy as we have it. They want an Islamic government, and that's what will end up there. Stop this pie-in-the-sky fantasy that Bush is feeding you.

Hell, I'm Republican and I know Alpha has a good point with this. They don't want democracy and they never will. Individual freedom, democracy, and all that bruhaha is NOT the Islam way. Societal freedom is, and that's what should ultimately be in place in Iraq. We'll continue getting our asses kicked until this happens. That's my honest opinion.

We need to get out of our narrow-minded utopian idea that democracy is perfect and should be the only accepted form of government. Since WHEN in history has that idea ever worked? Try never.
I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
 
bahadir
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RE: Your Gut Feeling On Iraq?

Wed Dec 08, 2004 1:23 pm

When I told people about my concerns before the war I was called Anti-American. But, unfortunately , my predictions have seen the daylight; the idea of prospering Iraqis hasn't  Sad) A year ago, when I was at work people were watching the TV at work (it's day time here in US but it was night time in Iraq) as if they were wathing the Monday Night Football..

My gut feeling is that this is going to be worse than Vietnam; not just from US' perspective, but from the stability of entire region.

To make a aviation reference to it, we are spending $6Bil/day in Iraq; it's the entire loss of the airlines in US in a Quarter.. Something to think about..

Let us not forget about the people who died in the conflict as well..

Just thinking about it makes me sad..  Sad
Earthbound misfit I
 
StarAC17
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RE: Your Gut Feeling On Iraq?

Wed Dec 08, 2004 1:49 pm

All who voted for Bush should have there kids sent off to Iraq to fight in that war.

Superfly I have to agree with that but leave the Bush girls here because they are good to look at Big grin
Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
 
vafi88
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RE: Your Gut Feeling On Iraq?

Wed Dec 08, 2004 2:41 pm

Could the spread of democracy be the next spread of Christianity???

I mean, look at what we colonized with christianity - now it seems Democracy this, that and the next - sure it's a pretty good way to run things, but it's not in any way perfect, and it surely isn't one size-fits-all... meaning it won't work for every nation...
I'd like to elect a president that has a Higher IQ than a retarted ant.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Your Gut Feeling On Iraq?

Wed Dec 08, 2004 3:30 pm

GWB did the Iraqis a favour by deposing Saddam. Now bring the US boys home and tell Iraq: "You are a grown up country, prove to the world you can democratize on your own". Leave Iraq to solve their own damn problems.

Iraq is a distant slab of sand. Not one American life is worth it. Let Iraq sink or swim on its own.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
jaysit
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RE: Your Gut Feeling On Iraq?

Wed Dec 08, 2004 3:38 pm

Iraq is a distant slab of sand.

Uh, huh.

With the world's largest reserves of oil after Saudi Arabia.

That's some really expensive sand.

So, if you think the US went into Iraq because some guys wanted to build sandcastles, or because democracy is such a divine thing think again.

The entire history of the West in the oil rich countries of the Middle East has been linked to the maintenance of "friendly" regimes that provide unfettered access to oil.

And this time is no different.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
Falcon84
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RE: Your Gut Feeling On Iraq?

Wed Dec 08, 2004 10:10 pm

GWB did the Iraqis a favour by deposing Saddam. Now bring the US boys home and tell Iraq: "You are a grown up country, prove to the world you can democratize on your own". Leave Iraq to solve their own damn problems.

1. It wasn't Bush's place to do them any "favors", especially since the reason for the invasion turned out to be false.

2. They are not a "grown" country. They're a fractured, broken nations, thanks to the United States of America. They've become a haven for terrorists, thanks to George W. Bush's cowboy mentality. A nation that teeters on the verge of civil war isn't a grown nation. It's one that is in dire straits, thanks to us.

3. WE cause "their own damn problems", Yyz717, with this stupid invasion. We're responsible for what's going on over them, none of that blame belongs to the Iraqi people-it belongs to George W. Bush, and, whether I like it or not-and I don't-we need to stay there to try and put the pieces back together because of the idiocy of our current President.

Iraq is a distant slab of sand. Not one American life is worth it. Let Iraq sink or swim on its own.

I agree, but where were such noble words BEFORE the invasion?
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
gkirk
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RE: Your Gut Feeling On Iraq?

Wed Dec 08, 2004 10:18 pm

It was good getting rid of Saddam Hussein but since that day and when we saw the pictures of the statue of Saddam in Baghdad being pulled down, it's all went downhill.
We need to keep soldiers in there until Iraq gets back onn it's feet, althoufgh I think that perhaps we should redeploy some troops to help with the suffering in some of the poorest African countries
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
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scbriml
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RE: Your Gut Feeling On Iraq?

Wed Dec 08, 2004 10:43 pm

Iraq is a total mess.

I'm starting a book on how long it will take for one/most/all of the "freely elected" Iraqi Government to be assassinated.

The "highly trained" Iraqi police force is a joke that can't even defend itself. Hell, if the is US losing troops at the rate it is, how do you expect a bunch of locals who don't have the heart for a fight to cope?

Even if the US could wipe out all the insurgents in Iraq today, the minute the US leaves, the insurgents will be back.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
StarAC17
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RE: Your Gut Feeling On Iraq?

Wed Dec 08, 2004 11:16 pm

Iraq is a distant slab of sand. Not one American life is worth it. Let Iraq sink or swim on its own.

Iraq will almost certainly sink. But if the US does pull out, doesn't it look like another war that occurred some 15 years before I was born that I hear was a huge embarrassment.
Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
 
KYIPpilot
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RE: Your Gut Feeling On Iraq?

Wed Dec 08, 2004 11:56 pm

My honest feeling is that this war was a total mistake, and I never supported it from day one. Thousands of people on both sides do not deserve the horror they must live through. No matter how many people say it is not, I think it is exactly a mini-Vietnam. There are just so many parallels. When it is all said and done, we are going to sit back and think, what the hell did we do that for? Thousands of lives and billions later...

You cannot force democracy on a nation, the people have to want it bad enough to get it themselves.

In my mind, there is one man responsible for this war-George Bush. The blood is on his hands. He can down play the bad news all he wants, but it is his responsibility. And I wish just for once he would admit he was wrong, but he never will.
"It starts when you're always afraid; You step out of line, the man come and take you away" -Buffalo Springfield
 
jaysit
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RE: Your Gut Feeling On Iraq?

Thu Dec 09, 2004 12:33 am

You cannot force democracy on a nation, the people have to want it bad enough to get it themselves.

Democracy isn't just a code word pulled out of a politician's ass. Conditions - cultural, social, political, economic - have to exist for democracy to sprout.

Iraq has none of that.

Twenty years of a rapacious ruler, followed by 2 years of destruction by an invading foreign army doing the bidding of a bunch of oil men in the White House.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
aloges
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RE: Your Gut Feeling On Iraq?

Thu Dec 09, 2004 12:47 am

My gut feeling is that terrorists are going to blow the country to pieces, the int'l community is going to feed its people and in the end, some "democratically elected presidents" with the support of "the West" are going to bring "stability" back to the place, whatever may be the number of countries it'll be divided into by then. Since our head honchos, both economic and governmental, are too uncreative (a.k.a. stupid) to think about anything but "OIL!!!" when they talk about energy, that "stability" will mostly mean a safe environment for international oil businesses or a national company owned by a few men getting filthy rich over it to cash in on Iraq's oil. I'm sure the country is not going anything remotely related to the UAE way; or maybe they are as soon as they invent the flying pig.

Oh, and some people will blame the goddamn liberals for it, that's for sure.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
Superfly
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RE: Your Gut Feeling On Iraq?

Thu Dec 09, 2004 9:40 am

StarAC17:
I agree, the Bush twins are hot.
Perhaps if they get blown to pieces then support for the war would dwindle and there Papa's administration would unwind real rast!
Bring back the Concorde
 
xpat
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RE: Your Gut Feeling On Iraq?

Thu Dec 09, 2004 8:31 pm

Isn't it strange that prior to the US invasion of Iraq, probably a very minor part of the population actually knew where it was nor gave a damn about what was going on there. Now we act like Iraq is our long last cousin in desperate need of protection and change. It is ridiculous to think that democracy is a perfect paradigm that can just be lifted up from the USA and forced on other nations. There are too many other factors at play (customs, history, social norms/mores etc.) that will not permit a cookie cutter democratic model.

What has happened there was based on pure arrogance, chauvinism and greed. The result has been unnecessary deaths, on both sides, and a growing antagonism and anti-American sentiment throughout the world. I think the Iraqi people will be in great danger when they are governed by, yet another, puppet government! That's my GUT feeling.

The only thing we have to fear is the sky falling on our heads. -Asterix
 
pilotaydin
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RE: Your Gut Feeling On Iraq?

Thu Dec 09, 2004 8:44 pm

i find it strange that the usa can support saddam against Iran, and then dismantle him 2 decades later when they see he didn't stay loyal to the usa...

this reminds me of a class in college where we read the Massacre at el Mazote, and also discussed political strategies of the usa...if im not mistaken, nothing new will happen with iraq, that hasnt happened before with us intervention govs....
The only time there is too much fuel onboard, is when you're on fire!
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Your Gut Feeling On Iraq?

Thu Dec 09, 2004 9:10 pm

Re: It was good getting rid of Saddam Hussein but since that day and when we saw the pictures of the statue of Saddam in Baghdad being pulled down, it's all went downhill.
We need to keep soldiers in there until Iraq gets back onn it's feet, althoufgh I think that perhaps we should redeploy some troops to help with the suffering in some of the poorest African countries


Absolutely - although I think a timetable should be set now for the withdrawal of all troops. The leadership (such as it is) of Iraq need to be given a clear unequivocal signal that from such and such a date, they are on their own. The future of the country is fairly predictable anyway - it will be an Shiite theocracy pretty soon, after which the Kurds and Sunni's will break away. But they have to figure that out for themselves, our need for oil should not be dictating to the Iraqi's how they run their country.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
airplay
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RE: Your Gut Feeling On Iraq?

Thu Dec 09, 2004 10:31 pm

Gut feeling? The invasion in Iraq is a disaster. Bush is a liar. The Bush family and associates are just low-life profiteers who will use their power to rape and plunder the world for their own gain.
 
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solnabo
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RE: Your Gut Feeling On Iraq?

Thu Dec 09, 2004 10:40 pm

My gut feeling on Iraq:

It´s gonna be a Vietnam 2, it gonna go on for years and years and years........

Sad, very sad! All those young girls n boys into a war based on a lie  Sad

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