galaxy5
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Dioxin Poisoning, Terrible Effects

Sun Dec 12, 2004 11:37 pm

Man, i never realized how bad dioxin poisoning affects the body (of course death is a bad side effect) but i didn't realized how it dramatically affected the skin and outside appearance.

http://apnews.myway.com/image/20041211/AUSTRIA_UKRAINE_YUSHCHENKO.sff_FRA103_20041211105303.html?date=20041211&docid=D86TOJHO0



more info on Dioxin. http://www.ejnet.org/dioxin/
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Newark777
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RE: Dioxin Poisoning, Terrible Effects

Mon Dec 13, 2004 12:05 am

Is that skin condition permanent, or will it go away eventually? A shame to see someone poisoned like that.  Sad
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Btblue
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RE: Dioxin Poisoning, Terrible Effects

Mon Dec 13, 2004 12:30 am

It will go away after time according to his Austrian doctor who is quoted on the BBC news website saying so.

Looks really bad - he wasn't bad looking before hand. Imagine having to cope with it? Yikes. Poor fella - wish him well.
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DfwRevolution
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RE: Dioxin Poisoning, Terrible Effects

Mon Dec 13, 2004 12:51 am

It will go away after time according to his Austrian doctor who is quoted on the BBC news website saying so.

A long time... it will be several years before he looks 100% normal, if he ever fully recovers. That is nasty stuff....
 
BR715-A1-30
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RE: Dioxin Poisoning, Terrible Effects

Mon Dec 13, 2004 3:26 am

That is really sad right there... No man should have to cope with that. What did he do that made him deserve this?
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andz
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RE: Dioxin Poisoning, Terrible Effects

Mon Dec 13, 2004 3:33 am

He had opponents in politics, which as we all know is a nasty business to be in.
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yyz717
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RE: Dioxin Poisoning, Terrible Effects

Mon Dec 13, 2004 5:07 am

Things like this just don't happen in civilized countries.
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DfwRevolution
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RE: Dioxin Poisoning, Terrible Effects

Mon Dec 13, 2004 5:38 am

Things like this just don't happen in civilized countries.

No...they only throw pies and eggs in eachothers faces....

http://www.turkishdailynews.com/old_editions/08_18_00/for2.htm#f28
 
Russophile
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RE: Dioxin Poisoning, Terrible Effects

Mon Dec 13, 2004 6:31 am

Can anyone show me the evidence which proves without a doubt that Yushchenko was deliberately poisoned, and furthermore that he was deliberately poisoned by political opponents?

I am not so naive to think that political motivations may not be behind this, but at the same time, dioxins are especially prevalent in foods such as fish (one of the most common sources of dioxin poisoning).

Just because Yushchenko, and his Vienna-based doctor (who happens to be a Ukie supporter of Yushchenko), scream attempted assassination does not make this the truth.

Additionally, as I mentioned in the other thread, it is also quite possible that what Yushchenko had was some type of viral infection. Except his doctors did not test for any viruses -- claiming that he arrived in Vienna too late for this -- a claim debunked by a US medical professor.

In this instance, it was necessary to have an independent examination. For all we know, he could have had a virus and also eaten some bad food. But this we won't know now, so everything is mere speculation.

[Edited 2004-12-12 22:39:20]
 
iakobos
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RE: Dioxin Poisoning, Terrible Effects

Mon Dec 13, 2004 7:23 am

Russophile,

Many thanks for reminding us of an often eclipsed fact of life:
beware of the fish !

Asterix and Obelix do remind us occasionally, still we should pay much more attention.

Following Russo's pertinent notice, the EU commission has already reacted and is preparing a bill for debate in parliament. It is hoped that by Q2 2005, every fish sold in the EU will have to bear the label "fish can kill you" on the left side and "consuming fish can cause cancer or poison you in a way your mother would not recognize you" on the right.

To emphasize the high level of danger, the notices will be printed in superimposition on an hologram representing a skull and bones.

Fish and fish products from the Black and Caspian Seas, and all rivers debiting into these will be prohibited for import into the EU.

Similar measures concerning sea mammals, shells and lobsters are awaiting the conclusion of separate studies.


 
prosa
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RE: Dioxin Poisoning, Terrible Effects

Mon Dec 13, 2004 7:40 am

of course death is a bad side effect

Well, uh, yeah  Smokin cool
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yyz717
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RE: Dioxin Poisoning, Terrible Effects

Mon Dec 13, 2004 8:03 am

For all we know, he could have had a virus and also eaten some bad food. But this we won't know now, so everything is mere speculation.

Yeah right. I guess the 50M people that Stalin killed maybe just had a virus also. The degree to which you will support anti-democratic pro-Russian activity is astounding.

Let the Ukrainian people choose their own leaders, without Russian interference.
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jaysit
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RE: Dioxin Poisoning, Terrible Effects

Mon Dec 13, 2004 8:11 am

I am not so naive to think that political motivations may not be behind this, but at the same time, dioxins are especially prevalent in foods such as fish (one of the most common sources of dioxin poisoning).

As a rebuttal, how many occurrences of fish-based dioxin poisoning has the Ukraine reported over the past year? How may has Russia reported? If eating fish was so dangerous, then we would see more of these awful scenarios.

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Russophile
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RE: Dioxin Poisoning, Terrible Effects

Mon Dec 13, 2004 9:24 am

Yyz717, this is not about democracy or anything like that. For Yanukovich, it is about keeping the oligarchs in 'power'. For Yushchenko, it is about nationalism. As far as I am concerned, nationalism is just as bad as corruption.

I do not want either Yanukovich nor Yushchenko in the President seat in Ukraine. It is all a case of same shit, different smell. I am all for the Ukrainian people deciding who they want to elect, without interference from Russia and without interference from the EU/US.

But I will go on the record with this. I now unequivocally support Yushchenko in his Presidency attempt.

Jaysit, it isn't a case of this. It is a case of how many cases (however many there are) around the world in the last year garner media attention such as this one. And it isn't just fish, but a whole range of foods, as is mentioned on the website in the link. And it isn't just food it is possible to get it from.

It is also possible it was a virus, as already mentioned, in conjunction with other factors.

What was needed in this particular case, because of the consequences, was a totally independent medical examination and testing. And before anyone says it was independent because it was done in Austria, this is not the case. You will have noticed media reports on this issue quote a Dr Michael Zimpfer, who is the director of the Rudolfiner clinic in Vienna, however, Zimpfer is not his doctor. His doctor's name is a Mykola Karpan -- Mykola is Nikolai in Ukrainian (Mykola is used mainly within the western part) -- and he has gone on the record on quite a few occasions saying he supports Yushchenko's bid. Hardly the most independent medical opinion.

Who do I believe in this case? Yanukovich, who has political capital to gain from poisoning Yushchenko? Or Yushchenko, who has political capital to gain from claiming Yanukovich poisoned him? Again, it is a case of same shit, different smell.

And I think it is quite foolhardy to categorically state what the cause was, one way or the other.

On a sidenote, anyone know what The Coz's post was deleted?
 
NoUFO
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RE: Dioxin Poisoning, Terrible Effects

Tue Dec 14, 2004 7:09 am

The Doctors did provide evidence (and it wasn't only one but rather a group of physicians) that Yushchenko was poisoned but it's simply not their business to proof the poisoning was deliberate. A hospital is a hospital and completely different from a court, nor can doctors speculate over who was behind the poisoning.

was a totally independent medical examination and testing

Exactly that had happen. The hospital has an excellent reputation.

For all we know, he could have had a virus and also eaten some bad food.
Source, please? The concentration of Dioxin is 1,000 times higher than it should it. Bad food and a virus do not cause such a concentration of Dioxin in your liver.

Edit: And all the blackmailings the doctor received came from the fish dealer (or the virus, maybe)?

[Edited 2004-12-13 23:21:05]
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Sinlock
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RE: Dioxin Poisoning, Terrible Effects

Tue Dec 14, 2004 8:09 am

I truley feel a deep sorrow for Yushchenko, He will most likely have health effects for many years if not for the rest of his life.

As someone who's father died (painfully) from Agent Orange, I truly hope things go for the best in his future.
 
unattendedbag
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RE: Dioxin Poisoning, Terrible Effects

Tue Dec 14, 2004 12:10 pm

"What was needed in this particular case, because of the consequences, was a totally independent medical examination and testing. And before anyone says it was independent because it was done in Austria"


Im sure he didn't just run down to the local free clinic to get a general test. He probably has the finest doctors (in his area) looking after him and treating him.

Either that, or he was in a fish eating contest and he was the only on to contract the toxin.
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Russophile
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RE: Dioxin Poisoning, Terrible Effects

Tue Dec 14, 2004 3:39 pm

unattendedbag, have a read of my post in which I name his doctor, and what his doctor went on the record with long before the results were even known.

noufo, the hospital might have a reputation, but that reputation is called into question when the resident Ukrainian pro-Yushchenko doctor speaks out about what I just wrote. And 1,000 times? So far I have seen reported 20 times, 50 times, 100 times, and now 1,000 times. Which is it?

and a source? what source? I am merely providing different scenarios -- of course, not presenting anything as fact or not.

http://www.onlinelawyersource.com/dioxin/poison.html

Because dioxin is so pervasive in the environment and our food supply, everyone is exposed to some degree of dioxin poison. People who are at particular risk for developing health problems caused by dioxin poison include young children, people who work or live near industrial or contaminated sites or products, and people who rely heavily on dioxin laden foods as their main source of sustenance. Dioxin poison takes years to be broken down in the body, allowing for the ill effects of this toxin to pose a threat to human health for most, if not all, of the human lifespan.

And additionally, this information:

http://slate.msn.com/id/2110979/

Another feature of the poison is that it takes a long time for the symptoms to show up—one reason Yushchenko's malady was not diagnosed earlier is that his chloracne took several weeks appear. The long onset time, however, means it is less likely that Yushchenko could have been poisoned only one night before he fell ill, when, as has been widely noted, he dined with the head of Ukraine's security service.

Why is the media (generally) reporting in such a way that they imply (either directly or indirectly) he was poisoned that night, when information available says that dioxin poisoning takes weeks for you to fall ill? Remember, Yushchenko himself claims that it was this night he was poisoned, because his own wife is on the record as saying that after kissing him that night she tasted the poison on his lips -- which also begs the question, if this poison was so strong as to cause you to be that ill, why did his wife not get the least bit sick? Surely she would have ingested trace amounts of it also?

Something smells somewhat, well, fishy here.

 
Russophile
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RE: Dioxin Poisoning, Terrible Effects

Tue Dec 14, 2004 3:54 pm

And one more thing in addition. Yushchenko has claimed that his political opponents tried to kill him by poisoning him.

http://www.news24.com/News24/World/News/0,,2-10-1462_1634911,00.html

In Russia, which strongly supported Yanukovich, a health ministry official questioned the conclusions reached by the Austrian doctors.

"Dioxin is not a poison with an immediate effect, its toxicity builds up over years, dozens of years, and it is impossible to receive a dose one day that would poison you the next," said Yuri Ostapenko, head of the Russian health ministry's poison centre.


And

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20041212/news_1n12ukraine.html

"All the signs look like the last deliberate poisoning I saw," said Dr. Arnold Schecter, a dioxin specialist at the University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center in Dallas. "It's perfectly consistent."

Unlike the immediate reactions caused by more common poisons such as arsenic or cyanide, dioxin's symptoms are delayed from two days to two weeks after exposure, no matter what the dosage, Schecter said. A single drop on food would be enough to have sickened Yushchenko, he said.


and

Olaf Pepke, a chemist in Hamburg, Germany, who has studied thousands of cases of dioxin poisoning, said he knows of no one who has died of dioxin poisoning itself.

"People will die as a result of dioxin, but this may be years later of a cancer," he said. "Until this day, we don't have a single instance where we can say that dioxin contamination resulted in an immediate death."


So why would his 'opponents' try to kill him by using a poison in which death has never resulted (quickly) as a result of its use? If they really wanted to kill him they could have staged a car accident or the like, and get the immediate result, because I am sure that 'whoever' 'poisoned' him would have known what this Olaf Pepke knows.

And to go back to what I wrote in my last post. This Arnold Schecter says that a single drop would have been enough to make him sick. 'Whoever' 'poisoned' him would have had to use a largish amount of this poison to get the '1,000' times result which is being quoted, so why didn't his wife get sick?
 
NoUFO
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RE: Dioxin Poisoning, Terrible Effects

Wed Dec 15, 2004 5:18 am

Russophile, with only very little common sense and a small number of reports on the poisoning, you can answer all the questions and respond to all the doubts you have raised by yourself.
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Russophile
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RE: Dioxin Poisoning, Terrible Effects

Mon Dec 20, 2004 11:22 pm

Russophile, with only very little common sense and a small number of reports on the poisoning, you can answer all the questions and respond to all the doubts you have raised by yourself.

I know that the answers being reported in the western media are a load of horseshit.

Yushchenko himself is claiming that the Ukrainian secret service poisoned him on the night of 5 September 2004.

However, he ate crawfish and salads (from a common bowl), and also drank beer, with 2 of the top secret service personnel and his campaign manager.

Better post the link to non-Russian media for 'fear' of being told I am rubbishing on:

http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/world/10458512.htm?1c

So here it is. Why was he the ONLY one to fall sick that night? Why are NONE of the other 3 sick like he is? This would be the case if the 'poison' was contained in that food?

Why is Yushchenko still proclaiming that it was the secret service who poisoned him that night, when he is being shown to be a liar?

Why is Yushchenko turning the poisoning into an election issue, BUT yet doesn't want any investigation done into this issue until after the election? Why are the relevant Ukrainian authorities who are investigating the case receiving their information not from Yushchenko, but from the media? Could it be because the lies he is now telling might be exposed for what they are, and hence hurt him at the polls?

I hope that the lying scumbag Yushchenko does get elected. Because then, for once and for all, when Ukraine goes to total shit, people can't blame their usual scapegoat (i.e. Russian Federation) and will instead have to pin the blame squarely on Yushchenko, the EU and the US for what results from him being railroaded into office.
 
Russophile
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RE: Dioxin Poisoning, Terrible Effects

Mon Dec 20, 2004 11:40 pm

http://www.turkishpress.com/news.asp?ID=35103

I also have to laugh at this comment:

"The poison given me was hundreds of thousands of times stronger than cyanide,"

Viktor, old chum, if the poison was as strong as you say it was, I can guarantee that you would not be alive today to tell to make such idiotic comments. Big grin

 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Dioxin Poisoning, Terrible Effects

Mon Dec 20, 2004 11:57 pm

Russophile,
I thought the Russians had nothing to do with the poisoning of Yuschenko so why do you act here like Putin's chief trial lawyer?

Because then, for once and for all, when Ukraine goes to total shit, people can't blame their usual scapegoat (i.e. Russian Federation)

You meant usual suspect, right? I seriously doubt it could be any worse than being fuc*ed by Moscow for three quarters of a century... Refresh my memory, Russo, who was in charge of Ukraine 1917-1991???

 
Russophile
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RE: Dioxin Poisoning, Terrible Effects

Tue Dec 21, 2004 12:14 am

Refresh my memory, Russo, who was in charge of Ukraine 1917-1991???

Refresh my memory, who was in charge of Ukraine 1991-2004? Can't scapegoat the Russians for this. Remember, under Yushchenko the economy floundered. Under Yanukovich the economy is rebounding.

I remember in another thread that Slawko made a point that people in western Ukraine are better off financially than their eastern Ukrainian counterparts. This may or may not be true, but consider that if it were to be true, a MAJOR reason for this is that around 30% of the population in western Ukrainian is working in RUSSIA at any given time. The Europeans don't want Ukrainians working in their countries. This will come to a halt if Yushchenko gets in. What then for the western Ukrainians? They think Europe will all of a sudden open up their doors?

Sorry, but Ukraine, particularly western Ukraine, doesn't know what it is getting itself in for. And none, I repeat none, of it will be the doing of Russia.

I thought the Russians had nothing to do with the poisoning of Yuschenko so why do you act here like Putin's chief trial lawyer?

Relevance to the discussion at hand? Zilch.  Insane  Insane  Insane

Maybe you could try commenting on what seems to be lies being put out by Yushchenko instead?

[Edited 2004-12-20 16:15:17]
 
Klaus
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Russophile

Tue Dec 21, 2004 1:17 am

Russophile: Viktor, old chum, if the poison was as strong as you say it was, I can guarantee that you would not be alive today to tell to make such idiotic comments.

Wrong. Dioxin is one of the most toxic substances known, far more toxic than cyanide. In this case, its "benefit" was that the amount they had to use was much smaller than with cyanide.

As always, please think before posting...  Insane
 
Russophile
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RE: Dioxin Poisoning, Terrible Effects

Tue Dec 21, 2004 1:42 am

Klaus, who is "they" as in "they had to use"?

And for info. Dioxin is 1000 times more poisonous than cyanide. Not 100,000 times as Yushchenko claims -- so my comment does hold true in the case of him being given a doseage 100,000 times as strong he claims. Scientists from one of the top Russian medical institutes have attested to this.

But whatever, it still doesn't explain the fact that 3 other people were eating the same food as him, yet they didn't get sick at all. Are we to simply to believe that he picked a random piece of food, and unfortunately picked the piece that was poisoned? Big grin
 
777236ER
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RE: Dioxin Poisoning, Terrible Effects

Tue Dec 21, 2004 2:13 am

And for info. Dioxin is 1000 times more poisonous than cyanide. Not 100,000 times as Yushchenko claims -- so my comment does hold true in the case of him being given a doseage 100,000 times as strong he claims. Scientists from one of the top Russian medical institutes have attested to this.,

Yes, dioxin is about 103 times more toxic than cyanide by volume. However, given Russia's political views on the case, maybe you should have given another source other than 'one of the top Russian medical institutes'.

All the evidence says he was poisoned. Simply because you don't like the way a democratic election in a country you used to occupy has turned out is no reason to cry about it.
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fritzi
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RE: Dioxin Poisoning, Terrible Effects

Tue Dec 21, 2004 2:21 am

noufo, the hospital might have a reputation, but that reputation is called into question when the resident Ukrainian pro-Yushchenko doctor speaks out about what I just wrote. And 1,000 times? So far I have seen reported 20 times, 50 times, 100 times, and now 1,000 times. Which is it?


Russophile, dont discredit a doctor or a hospital about which you barely know anything about.

I wouldn't doubt Yushchenko´s doctor, Dr. Nikolai Korpan, neither would I doubt the Hospital, the Privatklinik Rudolfinerhaus.
This is because Dr. Nikolai Korpan has performed Cryosurgery on me three times, and the last time was in May of this year at the Rudolfinerhaus Privatklinik. He is extremely professional and knows his medicine very well, trust me on that.
He would never mix private matters with his professionalism, PERIOD.
 
flyboy36y
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RE: Dioxin Poisoning, Terrible Effects

Tue Dec 21, 2004 3:15 am

But, I will go on the record with this. I now unequivocally support Yushchenko in his Presidency attempt

KIEV, Ukraine, Dec 20th - A major development has occurred in the race for President of Ukraine. An announcement by Russophile has selected candidate Yushenko for endorsement. This announcement is extremely important to both the people of Ukraine and to interested world bodies, who have anxiously been awaiting the results of who Russophile would endorse. One could virtually hear a collective sigh of relief from the international community upon learning that this long anticipated declaration had finally come. Yushcenko himself has describes the statement, issued by a Russian aviation fanatic living in Australia, as a defining moment in his bid for the presidency. Said Rusophile, "I will go on the record with this. I now unequivocally support Yushchenko in his Presidency attempt".

Despite that most people saw this as a major coup for Yushcecnko, a spokesman for Yanukovich -Yushcenko’s opponent- has said that one must take the news with a grain of salt. After all, “Rusophile was scathingly critical of Yushcenko and even disputed that he was poisoned at all by us” added the spokesman “I mean that could not have been us since we have already planned to use a car bomb, why would we poison him also? It’s just not logical”. Indeed, little is logical in this country wrought with turmoil, but one thing is certain: with Rusophile’s announcement, many people are getting their first nights of sound sleep in months. -Reuters
 
Russophile
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RE: Dioxin Poisoning, Terrible Effects

Tue Dec 21, 2004 3:19 am

maybe you should have given another source other than 'one of the top Russian medical institutes'.

Firstly, why should I? Nothing wrong with Russia's medical institutes.

Secondly, might be a bit hard, because none of the 'western' medical institutions are even commenting on this issue -- well not much anyway.

All the evidence says he was poisoned.

Yeah, but by WHO?

Simply because you don't like the way a democratic election in a country you used to occupy has turned out is no reason to cry about it.

Get your hand off it buddy. What Yushchenko has done, and is doing, in Ukraine is just as bad as what Yanukovich has done in Ukraine. There is NOTHING democractic about this entire process in Ukraine. Don't fool yourself.

He would never mix private matters with his professionalism, PERIOD.

PERIOD huh? So you mean to say that I, as well as others, have merely imagined reports of Korpan publicly stating that he supports Yushchenko in his election bid -- isn't this mixing private matters with his professionalism? Bloody oath it is. Furthermore, if Korpan is above all scrutiny, as you suggest he is, why isn't he mentioned by name in many of the media reports as being Yushchenko's doctor?

Look people, I have no doubt that Yushchenko was poisoned. But by what? By whom? When? How? All of these questions are yet to be answered, and Yushchenko's version of events is frankly not believable. Yushchenko isn't releasing information to the authorities who are supposed to be investigating his claims, and he won't meet with authorities. For example, his camp claims that Volodymyr Satsyuk, one of those security officials present at the dinner on 5 September is not able to be found, yet somehow, AP has managed to interview him. How is that?

As other reports mention, it really doesn't matter who, what, when, how, but Yushchenko has gotten his political capital over the entire affair.
 
Russophile
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RE: Dioxin Poisoning, Terrible Effects

Tue Dec 21, 2004 3:28 am

Funny, Flyboy36y, but hey, what can I say? Fucking typical of Reuters, reporting news from that part of the world some SEVEN days after the event.  Big grin
 
777236ER
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RE: Dioxin Poisoning, Terrible Effects

Fri Dec 24, 2004 6:10 am

Firstly, why should I? Nothing wrong with Russia's medical institutes.

Yes there is, when Russia has a history of interfering with Russian scientists, and the Russian government has a political point to make.

Secondly, might be a bit hard, because none of the 'western' medical institutions are even commenting on this issue -- well not much anyway.

Why should they, they have none of the data (well, apart from the lab in Vienna, forget about that one?), but neither does Russia. We're talking about dioxin effects, of which all the research is North American, European and Japanese.
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