BN747: Yikes!!! Ease up, Klaus.. he's a guy and he's still learning!
Sorry about that... I had left my
Dc10guy: I think that Someday .... Just like Mr. Flew, everyone will realize that they too believe in God.
I hope you´ve read the final paragraph as well: But he is unlikely to proclaim his faith from a pulpit. He is still not a Christian and dismisses the conventional forms of divinity as “the monstrous oriental despots of the religions of Christianity and Islam”. He also stands by his rejection of an afterlife.
I´m rather certain that god "exists" - just almost certainly not in the way you seem to hope he/she/it does. The collective imagination
is a rather powerful thing, regardless if it´s concerned with god, pop stars or the easter bunny. Just don´t confuse the physical world with your imagination, or people will get hurt.
Aerorobnz: Klaus perhaps I didn't word myself correctly, after all I was in the middle of a rant
No problem... I´m rather well trained in this particular kind of discussion, so the response was almost automatic...
Aerorobnz: what i meant is that until a theory is proven (eg: electricity) it is a belief on the part of the person that it will/has happened in a certain way and that you have taken the correct measures to ensure the hypothesis is proven. If you did not have a belief in the various processes and patterns of (a) science you could not prove a Hypothesis.
It´s still not the same. The word "belief" is fuzzy enough to (just barely) cover a cold scientific hypothesis as well as (much more closely) an emotional and/or spiritual belief that´s close to your heart, but both are still fundamentally different
in nature. Semantics are indeed essential here, and that´s why there´s a separate term
Aerorobnz: When Charles Darwin & Alfred Wallace released their work on 'Origin of Species' in 1858 it was based entirely on their observations of species all over the world
Which is why their hypothesis
had a rather solid factual foundation
in the evidence it grew out of. No "belief" required in the primary sense of the word.
Aerorobnz: Many of the scientific 'rules' today came about from these scientists, and many theories were vindicated posthumously - so they weren't the 'rules' at the time they were thought of therefore I would argue they were a set of beliefs for them.
Incorrect. The fundamental rules
of modern science had been invented by the ancient greeks
already. Since then, there is a clearly defined method to further expand scientific knowledge, even if the "dark ages" nearly extinguished it.
Aerorobnz: The difference between Science & Religion is that Science tests a hypothesis to try and find out the answer whereas Religion takes a belief at face value and extrapolates for its own means without knowing/identifying the processes behind it.
I think that´s an excellent characterization of the fundamental difference.
Dc10guy: Being too proud to humble yourself will catch up with a person someday ... But if a person doesn't want to believe it's fine with me. I don't care.
I don´t think both things have an actual connection.
If you need to imagine a supreme being against which you feel like an insignificant and sinful worm begging not to be stomped on in order to teach you humility, I´m not sure if I think that´s particularly healthy. Psychologically, that looks awfully close to a paranoid insufficiency complex.
I see god as a collectively imagined being, invented and further developed by human communities through the millenia; A symbol for collective and individual parts of our minds. I actually don´t outright refuse to take part in god
even though I see him/her/it as an imagination, but there can be no blind submission, no projection into the outside world and no claim of exclusivity or "ultimate truth" for me as a consequence.
Humility for me has primarily to do with recognizing my own limitations, my own emotional and spiritual needs and my place in the community as someone who welcomes the help of others and who has a responsibility to aid and encourage others. Humility
are the real twins... you can´t have one without the other, regardless of an ego the size of an aircraft carrier...
Happy december celebrations!