F9Widebody
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Leading Atheist Changes Mind....

Mon Dec 13, 2004 12:24 pm

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1400368,00.html

A LOST sheep has returned to the fold. One of the most renowned atheists of the past half century has changed his mind and decided that there is a God after all.

Antony Flew, 81, emeritus professor of philosophy at Reading University, whose arguments for atheism have influenced scholars around the world, has been converted to the view that some sort of deity created the universe.

Flew, the son of a Methodist minister, is keen to repent. “As people have certainly been influenced by me, I want to try and correct the enormous damage I may have done,” he said yesterday.

But he is unlikely to proclaim his faith from a pulpit. He is still not a Christian and dismisses the conventional forms of divinity as “the monstrous oriental despots of the religions of Christianity and Islam”. He also stands by his rejection of an afterlife.


Thoughts, Opinions?
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174thfwff
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RE: Leading Atheist Changes Mind....

Mon Dec 13, 2004 12:28 pm

The thoughts of one man should not be an influence on something that we have no proof of. Why people should believe him, I have no idea. I say big deal...
Brooklyn, Queens, Manhattan, Staten, Uptown, what now? Lets make it happen.
 
nosedive
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RE: Leading Atheist Changes Mind....

Mon Dec 13, 2004 2:02 pm

And yet one thing is for sure, we only get to find out who was right after we die....
 
TACAA320
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RE: Leading Atheist Changes Mind....

Mon Dec 13, 2004 9:46 pm

"The thoughts of one man should not be an influence on something that we have no proof of. Why people should believe him, I have no idea. I say big deal..."

Unfortunately "one man" influence can do a lot of damage. Just remember one: Hitler! Specially in ignorant people.


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"And yet one thing is for sure, we only get to find out who was right after we die...."

I don't hesitate about it. He corrected on time his big mistake.
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
Gary2880
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RE: Leading Atheist Changes Mind....

Mon Dec 13, 2004 10:02 pm

i dont think you can call being an athiest a big mistake, he sold out, shameful, but many christians turn into athiests anyway so im sure it balences it out
Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel :- Samuel Johnson
 
TACAA320
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RE: Leading Atheist Changes Mind....

Mon Dec 13, 2004 11:20 pm

"i dont think you can call being an athiest a big mistake, he sold out, shameful, but many christians turn into athiests anyway so im sure it balences it out "

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Well, you don't, but I do.

Professor Flew said "SORRY". He accept the fact that he made an "enormous damage" [once again, he said so, not me]. Hence, his accepting an error...

What else?

'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
Marco
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RE: Leading Atheist Changes Mind....

Tue Dec 14, 2004 1:16 am

dont think you can call being an athiest a big mistake, he sold out, shameful, but many christians turn into athiests anyway so im sure it balences it out

So he's a sell out if he converst from athiesm? What nonsense!

And for your info, the people becoming athiests are not real Christians, most were just born Christian by name.
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jaysit
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RE: Leading Atheist Changes Mind....

Tue Dec 14, 2004 2:23 am

Flew has in no way converted to any mainline Judeo-Christian religion.

I'm thinking of a God very different from the God of the Christian and far and away from the God of Islam, because both are depicted as omnipotent Oriental despots, cosmic Saddam Husseins.

If anything he is an agnostic, or is willing to accept that an indescribable life force may exist.

This is a central tenet of the core philosophy of many Eastern religions like Hinduism and Buddhism. Of course, both Hinduism and Buddhism have been corrupted by the mindless worship of religious avatars.

I'd spare the cost of sending him a stack of Bibles, if I were you.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
prosa
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RE: Leading Atheist Changes Mind....

Tue Dec 14, 2004 2:28 am

Flew is what is known as a "deist." He accepts that there is some sort of Higher Power, but will not take things any further.
"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
 
yooyoo
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RE: Leading Atheist Changes Mind....

Tue Dec 14, 2004 3:23 am

81 years of age. Nearing the end of his life?

Looking / hoping that there is something after death?

“As people have certainly been influenced by me, I want to try and correct the enormous damage I may have done,”

Hoping that the above is a key to enter and proceed to the "light" beyond?

Andreas

I am so smart, i am so smart... S-M-R-T... i mean S-M-A-R-T
 
TACAA320
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RE: Leading Atheist Changes Mind....

Tue Dec 14, 2004 5:30 am

"81 years of age. Nearing the end of his life?"

Don't you know that the only "requirement" to die is to be alive? There is no age requirement at all... You or me may die first.

On the contrary, never is too late to change your mind.
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
BN747
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RE: Leading Atheist Changes Mind....

Tue Dec 14, 2004 9:08 am

“As people have certainly been influenced by me, I want to try and correct the enormous damage I may have done,”

I don't know much about this guy... infact... never heard of him! But it sounds like as he reaches his last few ticks.. he can't handle the gut check he so profoundly professed at one time. He was alive when Freud was around... he should have took the advantage of that as best he could. But hey... he's 81.. he's entitled to change his mind.


BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
aa61hvy
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RE: Leading Atheist Changes Mind....

Tue Dec 14, 2004 9:10 am

Ironic that he changed his mind so close to the end of the road, being 81 and all.
Go big or go home
 
dl021
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RE: Leading Atheist Changes Mind....

Tue Dec 14, 2004 9:19 am

An old man who has spent his life in search of logic and answers deciding that there are no real answers to the most basic of questions can be understood when he decides that God really is in the details. He is deistic in his explications, and I am sure he still remains antagonistic towards organized religion.

I am curious as to what atheists think created the universe and life. Agnostics choose to not really deal with the subject, but atheists actively choose to believe that there is no God or higher power.

Any atheists out there who would like to explain some of this for me would be appreciated. I generally get a headache when I think of those fundamental questions like how old is the universe and what force could have created it, and what was there before, and all that.

I would like to hear from an atheist about their views.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
TACAA320
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RE: Leading Atheist Changes Mind....

Tue Dec 14, 2004 1:15 pm

"Ironic that he changed his mind so close to the end of the road, being 81 and all."

Ironic? No. Wisdom? Yes.
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
BN747
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RE: Leading Atheist Changes Mind....

Tue Dec 14, 2004 2:25 pm

"Ironic that he changed his mind so close to the end of the road, being 81 and all."

Ironic? No. Wisdom? Yes



I think not. If Billy Graham or Jimmy Swaggart suddenly announced they were 'athiest'... would that also be wisdom??? You'd write them off as being senile. But just imagine the earth-shattering damage announcement of that magnitude would cause!!! Why? One word-- fear! That's what drives the 'faithful'.

I am curious as to what atheists think created the universe and life.

....logic and answers deciding that there are no real answers to the most basic of questions can be understood...


Herein, lies the problem. We (humans) really and truly believe that 'the most basic questions' given all that we know-- should be 'answerable'. On the scale of unfolding knowledge of the universe we don't know squat. In the last 50 years of our existence, did we only begin to truly understand our own solar system (let alone the universe).

100 years ago, we were dumber than we were in 1960... but our own arrogance leads us to believe that we've known all this 'newly found science' all along and therefore it gets quickly digested and cast as 'old news'... we're still processing tons of this information and still cannot explain what we've recently discovered and have known from every possible angle or aspect. Only recently, have we begun to understand how our life existance works (from a scientific perspective) and many new answers pour in everyday. But nothing new comes from the 6000 year-old-bible (discounting endless interpretations to address every new social dilemma that dares to present itself aka cloning of vital organs etc).

Religion is a perfect vehicle to 'tie-up' all the questions of existence into a simple, nice and neat little package for those who don't want to push their brain or those who can't accept 'complicated and complexed' explanations. Everything can be written off as 'the will of god' or attributed to the 'knowledge' of god. So all the brutality,slaughter, madness and inhumanity that has occurred and currently doing so... is made easily acceptable and by saying that 'judgement awaits' all the transgressors'... thus making it all okay and palatable to a very very strange extent.

If you remove the arrogance from the equation.. you see we are.. at present 'the chief (human) animal at the moment. And by keeping the hubris in check, we also see, of all the knowledge we've compiled within the last 50 or so years...we really don't know as much as we think we know. In the most simplistic of terms, the secrets (and answers) of the universe are all present (they've been here all along).. we've just learn to 'speak the language of the universe'..we've just recently figured out the 1st word of a billion word crossword puzzle that contains a 20 thousand letter alphabet...yet, with arrogance (and bible) we walk around acting as if really do have all the answers. It is the bible that tells 'us' that life is all about 'US'... if that isn't arrogance ultimatus'... I don't know what is. As I said before... the universe was here long BEFORE us.. and it'll be here long AFTER us. Only the most arrogant believe, 'if we go... so goes the universe'...sorry, not a chance!

Athiest don't claim to know the answers to the universe... they just claim to have read/heard all the parables of the bible and concluded it makes about as much sense as squeezing your head in a vise. Athiest welcome and look forward to more unfolding answers.... not 'living in some dream world' afterlife' (that offers everything that pleases humans). After all humans aren't the only ones on this planet... yeah, we're running the show, but we didn't always run it and there's no gaurantee that we always will.


BN747





"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
DC10GUY
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RE: Leading Atheist Changes Mind....

Tue Dec 14, 2004 2:59 pm

In my book religion and faith in God are two different things ...
Next time try the old "dirty Sanchez" She'll love it !!!
 
USAFHummer
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...

Tue Dec 14, 2004 3:22 pm

"I am curious as to what atheists think created the universe and life. Agnostics choose to not really deal with the subject, but atheists actively choose to believe that there is no God or higher power.

Any atheists out there who would like to explain some of this for me would be appreciated. I generally get a headache when I think of those fundamental questions like how old is the universe and what force could have created it, and what was there before, and all that. "

Read BN747's post...it is almost exactly what I, an atheist would have wrote...good job BN747!

Greg
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DC10GUY
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RE: Leading Atheist Changes Mind....

Tue Dec 14, 2004 3:26 pm

No atheist has ever seen a tornado ....
Next time try the old "dirty Sanchez" She'll love it !!!
 
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aerorobnz
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RE: Leading Atheist Changes Mind....

Tue Dec 14, 2004 3:54 pm

I am an Atheist, having as I previously said in another thread been a practising catholic who was very much into talking to 'God' regularly and going to Church and living a very Christian lifestyle. The fact is I never accepted one perception of God, and found that what I was doing in the name of Christianity wasn't making me any better a person than if I did them for myself. Now I just take each day on its merits, not on whether I have said my prayers/done good deed and or converted anyone to my faith. As a result I find I am more spontaneous and ready to appreciate what life throws at me.

you certainly can't say I made mistake just cos I don't adhere to a church that runs by fear and control. It is no less reasonable a view than hearing God's voice in your head, or taking a book made up of short stories as the absolute truth about the world. Or believing in a lifeforce that runs the planet. Or anything else that various religions have put forward as an essential part of their religion. My point is that Atheism is a religion by any other name, because it is a belief/trust of faith in which you can't truely know if it is true or not - even if it feels real to you.

As for you BN747 you have earned your way onto my respected user list due to your coherent thoughts.
Flown to 120 Airports in 44 Countries on 73 Operators. Visited 55 Countries and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.
 
DC10GUY
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RE: Leading Atheist Changes Mind....

Tue Dec 14, 2004 3:59 pm

Its easy to be a atheist, especially when you don't have kids. After living for 44 years and seeing my 3 kids births ..... Yip there's a god alright.
Next time try the old "dirty Sanchez" She'll love it !!!
 
BN747
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RE: Leading Atheist Changes Mind....

Tue Dec 14, 2004 5:49 pm

Its easy to be a atheist, especially when you don't have kids. After living for 44 years and seeing my 3 kids births ..... Yip there's a god alright.

Dc-10guy, it's great life has been to you but somewhere not too far from you is an inept family raising a family of 3,4 or 5 and have no earthly business being charged with the welfare of a child! Let alone a number of them ! And next them another family that may be or may not be as grateful and as great a parent as you may be. But birth again.. as miraculous as it is.. is not uniquely human. Whales have been birthing calves 25 million years before we ever arrived on the planet. As much as we love and cherish birth...should we do the same with the end of life...death? No... we don't because it saddens us, scares us and frightens us into untold beliefs and bizarre thoughts. But great as achievement as birth is.. then so equally must be death... they are intricably linked! Now I'm in no hurry to get there.. but I can't control, when or how it will occur. The lack of (extreme) arrogance keeps me from making more out of death as much as someone's birth (as pleasing as it is).. but it's simply a passage of life. But we are living in the greatest time to have ever lived (up to date anyway) we have more access to predicting and charting our future with a fair degree confidence than any of our race before... but we must remember.. it's just the 1st step in a million mile marathon... it really isn't all that much when viewed from a galactic perspective.

It's easy being an athiest? Think again pal.

Arrogance/Bible/Koran/Torah believers stake faith on a unproven and promised outcome (everlasting life). It's like walking into a room and you know exactly what's in there before you open the door. No fear whatsoever.

Uncertainty/Athiest mindset/believers stake faith on nothing and take nothing for granted. We don't know the outcome nor do we pretend to. For us .. it's like walking into a dark room and having no clue what lies on the other side.. good or bad. Fear??? You'd better believe it.. but that comes with the territory of the unknown. Staking your life on the unknown is not easy by any means!

It's easier to just do as you're told by a book written when people thought an earthquake, tornado, hurricane, a swarm of bees or locust and a solar eclipse meant god was punishing them! Now that's easy! Do as you're told... how hard can that be?

Hey .. when I hit turbulence at 30,000... my 1st instinct is to pray to god (no shit).. but clearly that's from years of brain washing. If I were never raised with a religious background.. it'd be very interesting to hear what such a person thinks as their aircraft is being tossed about.. that ... I would love to hear!


BN747


"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
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aerorobnz
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RE: Leading Atheist Changes Mind....

Tue Dec 14, 2004 8:16 pm

BN747, When I hit heavy turbulence somewhere over the Bay of Bengal I do remember thinking "I'm glad I love aviation & flying the way I do, but it'd be very ironic if the plane went down with me on it." - It was good fun until it stopped somewhere over bulgaria. As you say, Life for an Atheist is like walking into a dark room the whole time, but funnily enough flying is one of the things that I feel the most comfortable doing without fear - and no it isn't cos I'm closer to God as someone suggested to me once....lol
Flown to 120 Airports in 44 Countries on 73 Operators. Visited 55 Countries and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.
 
TACAA320
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RE: Leading Atheist Changes Mind....

Tue Dec 14, 2004 10:29 pm

"In my book religion and faith in God are two different things"

Which book?


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"Arrogance/Bible/Koran/Torah believers stake faith on a unproven and promised outcome (everlasting life). It's like walking into a room and you know exactly what's in there before you open the door. No fear whatsoever."

Unproven? Yes. That's because we are talking about "faith".
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
dl021
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RE: Leading Atheist Changes Mind....

Wed Dec 15, 2004 12:13 am

bn....I understand much of what you are saying, having thought about it in depth, and I wonder if what you are saying is a rational reaction to justify a dislike for organized religion, and how much is a natural rejection of what you perceive as illogical.

My fundamental problem with organized religion is that it is run by humans who are full of what they themselves refer to as sin, and they are hypocritical enough to set out for you a way of life that even they cannot live by. This is compounded by the simple idea that we should accept it all on faith, when there is way too much evidence to countermand the fundamental dogma of Adam and Eve and the Garden of Eden. Evolution happened, the big bang almost certainly happened. So the basic mythology of the bible was put there by storytellers looking to both answer peoples questions (assumably so they could sleep at night, and to tell them how to act by turning the whole thing into a morality tale).

My standing statement on the Bible, and other religious writings, is that it was conceived as a crowd control document and has been effectively used over the last 2000 years as such. The Koran, Torah etc are included in this.

The really galling thing is that people decide that the rituals and cloaking of the church/system of worship will provide them with atonement for their sins, no matter what, in the next world. This leads people to assume that they can buy a ticket on the boat, and can do whatever they want until then.
We are responsible for our own lives and acts here on earth, and there is no heaven or hell other than what we create for ourselves. To assume that some priest can absolve us by a direct connection to God is a bit asinine to say the least.

But there is a problem with a pure logical existence. The are no answers to a couple of basic questions. How old is the universe? What was there prior to it? Who or what created it? Who created them? Why are we here? How was human life put together? Could something that complex and requiring that much consecutive coincidence have been an accident? How do we explain luck?

I guess the real question is "does it matter much?" Luck seems to go both ways. You and I were pulling in different directions for this last election, so either luck favored one of us or prayer really does work. I certainly have prayed to God for help, and I have sat in my lucky spot to watch Falcons games, while trying to avoid jinxing the game by talking too much about winning. Which works better? Who the hell knows?

I think it all gets back to the basics....we are equipped with what we have, and are able to improve ourselves if we so desire. No amount of prayer or luck will help those unwilling to do for themselves in some way, and luck and prayer seem to help those who work the hardest and take the most responsibility and the most risk.

I don't really know where that places me in the categorization of religious feelings, and I really don't care. I have been called religious by some and agnostic by others, even had one guy call me a heathen and really meant it.
Atheism seems to me to be a rejection of anything that cannot be explained logically....and there just are no answers to some of the most fundamental issues...and I don't think there will ever be. How big, how old, what started it, why.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
USAFHummer
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RE: Leading Atheist Changes Mind....

Wed Dec 15, 2004 12:23 am

"But there is a problem with a pure logical existence. The are no answers to a couple of basic questions. How old is the universe? What was there prior to it? Who or what created it? Who created them? Why are we here? How was human life put together? Could something that complex and requiring that much consecutive coincidence have been an accident? How do we explain luck?...Atheism seems to me to be a rejection of anything that cannot be explained logically....and there just are no answers to some of the most fundamental issues...and I don't think there will ever be. How big, how old, what started it, why."

As an atheist, I believe that the answers to this are out there, however at this time we do not have the scientific means and ways of deciphering them. Will we ever? Probably... In my lifetime? I'm not getting my hopes up...as BN points out, science in general is an ongoing process that continues to be deciphered at an exponential rate, and in due time, those exponents will cross the level needed to answer the questions of creation. It's just a matter of when...

Greg
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dl021
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RE: Leading Atheist Changes Mind....

Wed Dec 15, 2004 12:43 am

So what you are saying, and I am not being antagonistic in this at all, is that you DO have faith in the illogical. Therefore you are not really atheistic, because you believe in a process that involves answering the unanswerable.

What happens if someday science proves there is a God? There are theories about this now, including that of the man about whom this thread was about.

One thing we can all agree on....the answers are probably not coming in our lifetime. I guess we will all have have some kind of faith and spend our time actually living this life more than wondering about the unanswerable.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
USAFHummer
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RE: Leading Atheist Changes Mind....

Wed Dec 15, 2004 12:45 am

"What happens if someday science proves there is a God?"

That's the day I renounce my atheism, however, I of course believe that moment will never happen...

Greg
Chief A.net college football stadium self-pic guru
 
qr332
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RE: Leading Atheist Changes Mind....

Wed Dec 15, 2004 1:20 am

That's the day I renounce my atheism, however, I of course believe that moment will never happen...

Just as evidence that there is no God will never appear.

People today have taken the stand that "If it cannot be explained, it did not exist." too much, and try to make religion seem bad because of the past. Religions are firstly what our morals today based on; if there was no religion, right and wrong would be very different today.

I will not argue about why the Quran is right or wrong, or whether God exists or not, because God is faith, and faith comes from you alone. You can never force anyone to have faith in God, it comes alone, and for this reason it is useless to have this argument. I am not a Muslim who is religious, but I still believe in God and in what my religion says.
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
Gary2880
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RE: Leading Atheist Changes Mind....

Wed Dec 15, 2004 1:42 am

easy being an athiest?! what rubbish, its easy being christian, you dont have to think your told what to do when to do it and how to do it, athiests actually have to think for themselfs and dont need someone to tell them how to do something

the reason i said he was a sellout as others have mentioned, hes about to die, hes scared thats hes going to be burried in the ground and turn to dust
Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel :- Samuel Johnson
 
Marco
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RE: Leading Atheist Changes Mind....

Wed Dec 15, 2004 2:14 am

what rubbish, its easy being christian, you dont have to think your told what to do when to do it and how to do it, athiests actually have to think for themselfs and dont need someone to tell them how to do something

No your post is rubbish, again. Christians aren't robots. Christians are humans too, and don't just follow a set of rules, we have a relationship with our creator.
Proud to be an Assyrian!
 
gigneil
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RE: Leading Atheist Changes Mind....

Wed Dec 15, 2004 4:34 am

What happens if someday science proves there is a God?

I will tell him, frankly, to f*** off.

N
 
BN747
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RE: Leading Atheist Changes Mind....

Wed Dec 15, 2004 5:20 am

I guess the real question is "does it matter much?" Luck seems to go both ways. You and I were pulling in different directions for this last election, so either luck favored one of us or prayer really does work. I certainly have prayed to God for help, and I have sat in my lucky spot to watch Falcons games, while trying to avoid jinxing the game by talking too much about winning. Which works better? Who the hell knows?

Okay (di).. I'm gonna bite here.... I used do the same thing over an NFL team.. but fortunately for me (or should I say .. luck) I became friends with a couple of NFL guys and went to a few games with them all the way to a few Super Bowls (not their teams at the time).. but it afforded me to see the game from a 'completely' different perspective. It's far more different watching on tv or even from the stadium seats! Example... luck.. how important is a 'Time-out' in the game? Quite crucial isn't it? But one thing you notice when sitting the stands vs watching on tv... are the 'TV Time-outs'.. that's right.. when a break for a commercial comes... everyone at home either watches the new beer ad or hits the head.... in the stadium.. everyone's wondering 'WTF' is going on.. why are they standing around? No one called a time-out'... then you figure it out.. but I have to ask.. does any count how many TV-time out's occur.. do they favor the home team or the opponent? Is it balanced out, does anyone keep count? I know that's a simple example but it's a great example of deception. I'm not going say that football is fixed, but I will say I gave up on 'lucky team' crap a long time ago. But I will say this... the NFL is all about business, it's all about money, fcuk Michael Vick, Brady, Roethelisberger, Favre, McNabb... yes they are having fun playing it.. but they know there are limits, they know that the bucks come 1st. (my apologies to anyone whom I might be souring the game for.. that is not my intent). I still watch games today (while working on a laptop and/or reading newspapers (which I have no faith in).. but as far as they games go.. my emotions extend only to 'great plays and catches' no longer towards who wins...I don't trust it and I know there's more there at work than what meets the eye.

Luck, we all get some at one time or another, from talking our way out of a traffic ticket to knowing (or finding out things no one else knows) in business (and mean every business) there's a velvet rope, a vip entrance and way in... this isn't luck. These are just social constructs designed to temper the numbers. Luck? Vegas is the last place to find it, but the 1st place most go to find it. Tell me that's not a joke! Real luck is the duck that doesn't get catch by a hungry fox! I wonder (sadly) would Dick Ebersol, to have one son spared and one taken in the crash last week.. I know with all my being he'd give his own life for his youngest son who perished... how would luck figure in that equation...

You are trying to place limitations and boundaries on things that have none or call them illogical. It's further exampled below....

Atheism seems to me to be a rejection of anything that cannot be explained logically....and there just are no answers to some of the most fundamental issues...and I don't think there will ever be. How big, how old, what started it, why.

As USAFHummer/Greg said.. the answers are there.. we just do not possess the ability to process (or speak that language) that information yet. We need to be more appreciative of what we've accomplished in the blink of an eye (the last 50 years) we have kids today (anyone born after 1980--95% of A.net) who see the Moon landing as something that occurred not long after Moses (who wasn't real)... they have no historical context nor appreciate the span of time that separates them. They and you seem to crave.. no demand more information... more answers and want them right now.. and we cannot even begin to process all that's on our plate right now! Funded scientist are working as fast as their funding allows.. but greater discoveries come from the lone guy beholden to no one ...and who no one (or most do not) understands... history has shown that. I agree with Greg, we will not get the answers in this life time... but to me, that's perfectly fine (that's just our unlucky roll of the dice... but I'm just happy to be here.. in this age of real discovery. The 'who, when, how answer is very much alive and staring us right in the face... we just can't see it yet or should I say ' someone has yet to come along and articulate it' so the rest of us dumb bastards can understand it.. but it's coming and no one can stop it! I'll see a few more great scientific revelations for certain before my time runs out.. but the ones you ask??? I doubt it... I'd like to.. but I doubt if I'll be that lucky. Now that (in my book) would be luck.

Aerorobnz... thanks for sharting that... I'm slowing crossing over to telling myself (during turbulence)... "hey, these pilots don't want to die.. I'm sure they're doing all they can to keep this thing aloft."

"What happens if someday science proves there is a God?"

Not a chance in hell that'll happen.. science has gone too far and has without saying it 'discounted that theory'. Besides, all you guys out there claiming God as your own.. if his word is true.. he/Jesus is going to sit with the poorest of nations first.. that's who Jesus (supposedly) hung out with. That means of 200+ nations, Haiti, Gabon,the Congo, Bangladesh,Peru and some 200 nations will garnish his attention long before he has time for Kansas and Nebraska...America being the richest nation..will be dead last.. as much of a christian nation it thinks it is.


BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
TACAA320
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RE: Leading Atheist Changes Mind....

Wed Dec 15, 2004 5:55 am

""What happens if someday science proves there is a God?"

That's the day I renounce my atheism, however, I of course believe that moment will never happen..."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Of course someday science can prove that there is a God. But it will only happen if you have something called "FAITH".

Faith can move mountains. If you don't have it, nothing happen.

"I of course believe that moment will never happen..." I think you used a wrong word: "believe" instead of "expect".
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
DC10GUY
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RE: Leading Atheist Changes Mind....

Wed Dec 15, 2004 7:19 am

Well I guess I'm wrong BN747, Trying to find reasons to not believe in god must be hard. Your good at it. Don't get me wrong I don't like religion at all. But I do believe in God . And if Atheists where honest with themselves they would too. Someday everyone will find God ... Just like our hero Mr. Flew has.
Next time try the old "dirty Sanchez" She'll love it !!!
 
flyboy1980
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RE: Leading Atheist Changes Mind....

Wed Dec 15, 2004 7:27 am

After weighing up all the evidence, I can confidently call myself an atheist.

Rational thinking, science and physical evidence proves to me that there is no God. There is no need to find "reasons" when there is evidence. Science and evidential fact versus an extremely out of date book, the word of a few people and "faith" (belief in the absence of evidence). Not a difficult conclusion to come to in my opinion.

Despite what you think Dc10guy, I am being honest with myself and others.

Should I deny a part of myself because you think I should? I may not agree with you but I wouldn't be so arrogant to assume that you should accept my view as you seem to expect of others.
 
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aerorobnz
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RE: Leading Atheist Changes Mind....

Wed Dec 15, 2004 8:52 am

Science itself is all about theory, and beliefs - despite the gulf that scientists & Religious folk alike think exists between them. Science is a philosophy, which is where it originally began before someone decided to call it science. Because it is a philosophy it can't prove there is no God it can only discredit a theory. We think the world is near 4 billion years old, but scientists vary amongst themselves by billions of years - some believe that the world is only 120million years old or even younger. The current theories used in science are used because nothing has proven as a more substantial philosophy, yet they are not fact even if treated as such, just brilliant examples of the power of the human mind finding patterns in the abstract, just as it was designed to do back when we were wild, and hairier apes (itself a theory not fact) .. That power of mind was what finally converted me from Christianity to Atheism. I figured that with the developments the human mind has invented from deep in their imaginations onto paper, and then into a tangible reality, what stopped me from creating God from my imagination to the extent that I would be able to have a conversation in my head with him ie: prayer and have a voice of reason as I go about my daily life, As I still can create the 'voice of God' in my head on command (a real God wouldn't come when you clicked your fingers, only when you actually need him) without being 'Schizo', One would suggest that despite the help and guidance that the voice gave me along my 'journey' as a Christian, it was still me all along, and now I am more confident in what I do. Life as a Christian was very linear life-marriage-sex-children-death, now as an atheist I am able to observe the world more laterally, and that stimulates my mind more as a result.
Flown to 120 Airports in 44 Countries on 73 Operators. Visited 55 Countries and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.
 
gigneil
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RE: Leading Atheist Changes Mind....

Wed Dec 15, 2004 9:00 am

And if Atheists where honest with themselves they would too.

I'm honest with myself.

Just to let you know, there's no tooth fairy, Santa Clause, or boogeymonster either. But when you were little, I'm sure you were convinced of it.

N
 
Klaus
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Aerorobnz

Wed Dec 15, 2004 10:12 am

Aerorobnz: Science itself is all about theory, and beliefs - despite the gulf that scientists & Religious folk alike think exists between them. Science is a philosophy, which is where it originally began before someone decided to call it science.

Sorry, but you´re wrong. The dumbed-down version of science presented on TV may appear that way to you, but that´s not what science actually is.

In short: Science is a set of rules for the continuous verification and optimization of load-bearing knowledge, the kind you can trust your life in when you´re boarding an airplane.

Science is not a "set of beliefs". It is primarily a system of generic rules which every theory will have to pass in order to be considered valid. The more accessible an area of science is to experimental verification of a theory, the more useful and reliable that theory will be in practice. The more esoteric and inaccessible to verification, the more fuzzy and less relevant the respective theories tend to be.

Try to find a computer running on a basis of "beliefs" to type your posts into...  Insane
 
BN747
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RE: Leading Atheist Changes Mind....

Wed Dec 15, 2004 10:30 am

Yikes!!! Ease up, Klaus.. he's a guy and he's still learning! However, Rob... Klaus is 100% on the money. Ummm 'what' he said ... is science.. and I'm still learning how to articulate it with the same dead-center precision that Klaus seems to rattle off like most people breathe air...

No Dc-10guy, you're not wrong. You're very much entitled to your beliefs and there's nothing wrong with that. It's just when the same is applied to me and given what life experiences has revealed to me.. it just doesn't add up, no how, no way. I'm not good at trashing god and I don't work hard at it.. it's all there for any one to read... one of the nost revealing things was comparing a Bible written in 1910 vs one today.. wow what a difference... I'm sure if you read the Bible, going backwards, every 100 years.. you'd be amazed how much 'tweaking and tinkering' has been going on with that thing. It didn't start there.. it's started with page one.. on day one when it was written. And that's where the flaw begins.


BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
DC10GUY
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RE: Leading Atheist Changes Mind....

Wed Dec 15, 2004 10:32 am

I think that Someday .... Just like Mr. Flew, everyone will realize that they too believe in God. Its only a matter of time. But if you refuse too, that's fine with me too.
Next time try the old "dirty Sanchez" She'll love it !!!
 
gigneil
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RE: Leading Atheist Changes Mind....

Wed Dec 15, 2004 10:36 am

Everyone eventually will have a weak moment. And, in that weak moment, they will turn to whatever comforts them.

If that means that, as they're dying, fear drives them to hope for something more, and they find that a final comfort.

Its desperation. Not rational judgement.

N
 
DC10GUY
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RE: Leading Atheist Changes Mind....

Wed Dec 15, 2004 10:55 am

The end result will be the same .....
Next time try the old "dirty Sanchez" She'll love it !!!
 
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aerorobnz
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RE: Leading Atheist Changes Mind....

Wed Dec 15, 2004 11:40 am

Klaus perhaps I didn't word myself correctly, after all I was in the middle of a rant  Big thumbs up what i meant is that until a theory is proven (eg: electricity) it is a belief on the part of the person that it will/has happened in a certain way and that you have taken the correct measures to ensure the hypothesis is proven. If you did not have a belief in the various processes and patterns of (a) science you could not prove a Hypothesis. When Charles Darwin & Alfred Wallace released their work on 'Origin of Species' in 1858 it was based entirely on their observations of species all over the world & summising with reasonable justification that we originated from a common species, and was widely discredited due to the Creationist Idea put forward in the bible. they both died believing in their theory and it was not until well after their deaths that their ideas were vindicated and accepted as 'fact'. If that isn't faith in science and their conclusions I don't know what is. I'm not talking about Peter Pan 'I believe I can' type stuff. Nowadays it is less of the case because we are growing ideas off ideas that have existed, but back before the 1800s (an age of rapid expansion in science) it was very much a case of stepping out on your own and believing in your theory as fact cos no one else was going to listen or
accept your ideas. I still maintain that Keppler, Galileo,Newton and the like were all philosophers as much as they were scientists, and they were persecuted for their beliefs as much as anyone with differing religious ideas to the norm.
Many of the scientific 'rules' today came about from these scientists, and many theories were vindicated posthumously - so they weren't the 'rules' at the time they were thought of therefore I would argue they were a set of beliefs for them.

The difference between Science & Religion is that Science tests a hypothesis to try and find out the answer whereas Religion takes a belief at face value and extrapolates for its own means without knowing/identifying the processes behind it.
Flown to 120 Airports in 44 Countries on 73 Operators. Visited 55 Countries and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.
 
gigneil
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RE: Leading Atheist Changes Mind....

Wed Dec 15, 2004 11:56 am

The end result will be the same .....

Don't you find that sad that it someone with the fear of damnation in their final moments get the same benefits from your God that a devout follower with a pure heart their whole lives?

I find it pathetic. And also, if there is a God, very unlikely. Doesn't go with his history of mightily smiting the faithless.

N
 
DC10GUY
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RE: Leading Atheist Changes Mind....

Wed Dec 15, 2004 12:22 pm

No, I don't find it sad. Pride is a tuff thing. Being too proud to humble yourself will catch up with a person someday ... But if a person doesn't want to believe it's fine with me. I don't care.
Next time try the old "dirty Sanchez" She'll love it !!!
 
Klaus
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RE: Leading Atheist Changes Mind....

Wed Dec 15, 2004 1:23 pm

BN747: Yikes!!! Ease up, Klaus.. he's a guy and he's still learning!

Sorry about that... I had left my Inconsistency Detector in AutoDestroy mode again...  Wink/being sarcastic


Dc10guy: I think that Someday .... Just like Mr. Flew, everyone will realize that they too believe in God.

I hope you´ve read the final paragraph as well: But he is unlikely to proclaim his faith from a pulpit. He is still not a Christian and dismisses the conventional forms of divinity as “the monstrous oriental despots of the religions of Christianity and Islam”. He also stands by his rejection of an afterlife.

I´m rather certain that god "exists" - just almost certainly not in the way you seem to hope he/she/it does. The collective imagination is a rather powerful thing, regardless if it´s concerned with god, pop stars or the easter bunny. Just don´t confuse the physical world with your imagination, or people will get hurt.


Aerorobnz: Klaus perhaps I didn't word myself correctly, after all I was in the middle of a rant

No problem... I´m rather well trained in this particular kind of discussion, so the response was almost automatic...  Wink/being sarcastic


Aerorobnz: what i meant is that until a theory is proven (eg: electricity) it is a belief on the part of the person that it will/has happened in a certain way and that you have taken the correct measures to ensure the hypothesis is proven. If you did not have a belief in the various processes and patterns of (a) science you could not prove a Hypothesis.

It´s still not the same. The word "belief" is fuzzy enough to (just barely) cover a cold scientific hypothesis as well as (much more closely) an emotional and/or spiritual belief that´s close to your heart, but both are still fundamentally different in nature. Semantics are indeed essential here, and that´s why there´s a separate term for hypotheses.


Aerorobnz: When Charles Darwin & Alfred Wallace released their work on 'Origin of Species' in 1858 it was based entirely on their observations of species all over the world

Which is why their hypothesis had a rather solid factual foundation in the evidence it grew out of. No "belief" required in the primary sense of the word.


Aerorobnz: Many of the scientific 'rules' today came about from these scientists, and many theories were vindicated posthumously - so they weren't the 'rules' at the time they were thought of therefore I would argue they were a set of beliefs for them.

Incorrect. The fundamental rules of modern science had been invented by the ancient greeks already. Since then, there is a clearly defined method to further expand scientific knowledge, even if the "dark ages" nearly extinguished it.


Aerorobnz: The difference between Science & Religion is that Science tests a hypothesis to try and find out the answer whereas Religion takes a belief at face value and extrapolates for its own means without knowing/identifying the processes behind it.

I think that´s an excellent characterization of the fundamental difference.  Big thumbs up


Dc10guy: Being too proud to humble yourself will catch up with a person someday ... But if a person doesn't want to believe it's fine with me. I don't care.

I don´t think both things have an actual connection.

If you need to imagine a supreme being against which you feel like an insignificant and sinful worm begging not to be stomped on in order to teach you humility, I´m not sure if I think that´s particularly healthy. Psychologically, that looks awfully close to a paranoid insufficiency complex.

I see god as a collectively imagined being, invented and further developed by human communities through the millenia; A symbol for collective and individual parts of our minds. I actually don´t outright refuse to take part in god even though I see him/her/it as an imagination, but there can be no blind submission, no projection into the outside world and no claim of exclusivity or "ultimate truth" for me as a consequence.

Humility for me has primarily to do with recognizing my own limitations, my own emotional and spiritual needs and my place in the community as someone who welcomes the help of others and who has a responsibility to aid and encourage others.

Humility and realism are the real twins... you can´t have one without the other, regardless of an ego the size of an aircraft carrier...  Wink/being sarcastic

Happy december celebrations!  Big thumbs up
 
DC10GUY
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RE: Leading Atheist Changes Mind....

Wed Dec 15, 2004 2:06 pm

I think its interesting that atheists are so proud of being "atheist" Its seems important to them to make sure people know how they feel. I'm not a Christian by any means, but do Christians proclaiming their Christianity pisses off the atheists ???
Next time try the old "dirty Sanchez" She'll love it !!!
 
Q330
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RE: Leading Atheist Changes Mind....

Wed Dec 15, 2004 3:04 pm

BN747 and Klaus, you've made some good posts. Very interesting.

I think its interesting that atheists are so proud of being "atheist" Its seems important to them to make sure people know how they feel.

In this respect, they've got nothing on the evangelical Christians.

do Christians proclaiming their Christianity pisses off the atheists ???

It sure pisses me off!  Wink/being sarcastic

-Q
Long live the A330!
 
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aerorobnz
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RE: Leading Atheist Changes Mind....

Wed Dec 15, 2004 3:18 pm

Klaus, I'm not going to take the point I attempted to make. I've clearly been beaten by a more experienced person on the matter!  Wink/being sarcastic Still it's been fun and I'm learning.
Flown to 120 Airports in 44 Countries on 73 Operators. Visited 55 Countries and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.

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