Klaus
Topic Author
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For A More Mature Transatlantic Relationship

Thu Dec 16, 2004 10:57 am

German ambassador to the US Wolfgang Ischinger has written an interesting article in the Atlantic Times about the perspectives of the transatlantic relationship. I think it should get attention on both sides of the pond.

Excerpt: [...] In my personal view, one of the significant perception problems in the transatlantic arena over the last several years has been the impression that America is constantly pushing forward, demanding action, trying to solve problems without delay, whereas Europeans are seen as being defensive, arguing either in favor of non-action or of delayed action, and neither willing nor capable of joining the United States in transforming the world into a better place.

This perception, the best intellectual expression of which is Robert Kagan’s essay on “Paradise and Power,” are false and misleading. As we strive to establish a new and more harmonious balance, perceptions of a driving and driven America, and of a reluctant or unwilling Europe, need to be reexamined and adjusted.

First, the concept of transformation is not a patent owned by America. Americans often forget or ignore the fact that there is no region in the world which equals the countries of Central and Eastern Europe in their capacity, determination, and success in transforming themselves from repressed societies into free democracies, and from state-planned economies into full participants in the global market place. More importantly, Europeans discovered the significance of working with the countries of the Middle East toward the goals of modernization, democracy, human rights , and the rule of law a long time ago -  long before Washington got into that game.[...]


Read the full article here: Germany Info: Information Services: Press Information: Press Releases

[Edited 2004-12-16 03:01:03]
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: For A More Mature Transatlantic Relationship

Thu Dec 16, 2004 11:57 am

Third, Europe is not inactive with regard to global and international politics. Europe has an agenda

...couldn't agree more here
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
dl021
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RE: For A More Mature Transatlantic Relationship

Thu Dec 16, 2004 12:40 pm

First, the concept of transformation is not a patent owned by America. Americans often forget or ignore the fact that there is no region in the world which equals the countries of Central and Eastern Europe in their capacity, determination, and success in transforming themselves from repressed societies into free democracies, and from state-planned economies into full participants in the global market place.

The gentleman is correct, Central and Eastern Europe have proven themselves capable of transformation.

.....What was the catalyst for this transformation?

How did Europe manage to effect this transformation? Were the factors involved totally self-contained?

How long did it take these countries to realize a successful graduation to democracy?


Europe does have an agenda, I also think that it's agenda reads differently depending on the language in which it is being written and read.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
Qb001
Posts: 1923
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RE: For A More Mature Transatlantic Relationship

Thu Dec 16, 2004 1:01 pm

I agree with 90% of the article.

As for the remaining 10%, I have to take side with Americans sometimes, when they express the view that many countries (Europe and Canada, among others) don't do their fair share in terms of policing the world. Of course, the Iraq war has nothing to do with policing the world - it's an illegal invasion which goal seems to be to control the oil.

In today's Europe, would the EU be able and willing to successfully intervene in former Yugoslavia and succeed without the help and support of the USA, like in the early 90s ? I still have my doubts about that. France is doing a great job in Ivory Coast, but what about Liberia ? And Darfour ?

The world needs a stronger Europe, economically (done), politically (still too weak) and militarily (very, very weak).
Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: For A More Mature Transatlantic Relationship

Fri Dec 17, 2004 2:10 am

I think the bigger issue is actually France, which could actually implode on them, when it comes to Europe. While the US and Europe disagree on some issues right now, I see France as going overboard a bit. First they want to push their agenda the EU nations, and on an issue near and dear to A.netters then they tried to backdoor Germany's CEO partnership with EADS. Over here, we view these kinds of moves on the same level of arrogance that France views us with regard to the war.

what about Liberia ? And Darfour ?

That's a whole other mess.

Bottom line, the EU is much like the transformation of US States to a single nation. That didn't happen overnight, hell we had a civil war in the process. Some folks over there do need to tone down their politcal pushing and shoving for it to work.

[Edited 2004-12-16 18:14:55]
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: For A More Mature Transatlantic Relationship

Fri Dec 17, 2004 3:13 am

AFAIK, any UN move into Sudan has been blocked in the security council by the vetos of Russia and China, who see it the legitimate right of a Nation´s government to terminate dissident parts of the population as "internal affairs, which are no business of anybody outside". For them territorial integrity is a priority before anything else, and don´t forget that, beyond the ethnical level in Sudan (Black Christians/Animists versus Arab Muslims) the whole thing is also bout oil (the Sudanese oil fields lie in the predominantly Animist/Christian region, but the Arab/Muslim government wants to exploit them). For a solution we´ve got to get rid of the right to veto for the 5 permanent members of the WSC, which I can´t see them giving up voluntarely.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
spinzels
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RE: For A More Mature Transatlantic Relationship

Fri Dec 17, 2004 4:18 am

While the US and Europe disagree on some issues right now, I see France as going overboard a bit. First they want to push their agenda the EU nations,

Can you give a single example of this pushing?

In fact, they're not doing any pushing. On the major issues preoccupying Europe: Nukes in Iran, the Chinese Weapon Embargo, Israel/Palestine, Kyoto, the European position is much closer to the French one than the American one. Yes, I think a lot of people view the French as being a little too antagonistic, but that is style; on substance the French aren't pushing, the U.S. policies are deeply unpopular.

If France and Chirac were so disliked in Europe, Chirac wouldn't be so widely used as a spokesman advocating for passage of the new constitution. As it is, he is the number one public figure for passage of the new constitution.

True when you go beyond the original 15, you may find more opposition to France and more empathy for the American position. However, as Nick Kristof's excellent recent series in the Times show, ("Brother Can you Spare a Brigade") that empathy doesn't translate into actual support.

and on an issue near and dear to A.netters then they tried to backdoor Germany's CEO partnership with EADS.

Explain this please.

I've been to Paradise, but I've never been to me
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: For A More Mature Transatlantic Relationship

Fri Dec 17, 2004 8:08 am

it's an illegal invasion

...care to refresh us as to exactly what was illegal about it?
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
 
spinzels
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RE: For A More Mature Transatlantic Relationship

Fri Dec 17, 2004 10:49 pm

Boeing7E7:

You're 0/2. I ask for explanations and you give me the results of your Google searches. And as a special Christmas bonus, none of the first few articles returned in either of the Google searches readily support your assertions.

I've been to Paradise, but I've never been to me
 
gkirk
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RE: For A More Mature Transatlantic Relationship

Fri Dec 17, 2004 10:54 pm

I understand the EU want to co-operate more closely with China in a bid to try to become equal to the US.
I feel that if the EU progress down this path, then the divide between the EU and US will become much larger, and much more dangerous.
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
dl021
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RE: For A More Mature Transatlantic Relationship

Fri Dec 17, 2004 10:57 pm

airplay - it's an illegal invasion which goal seems to be to control the oil.

If we were invading with the imperial intent of keeping their oil wealth for ourselves them someone please explain to me why the first two oil contracts went to Turkish and Canadian companies?

http://www.aljazeera.com/me.asp?service_ID=6323

How is that indicative of the US trying to control or steal IRaqi oil?

Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
Falcon84
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RE: For A More Mature Transatlantic Relationship

Fri Dec 17, 2004 11:05 pm

For a more mature relationship, it would help to have a mature person in the White House, who doesn't treat the rest of the world like shit.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
gkirk
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RE: For A More Mature Transatlantic Relationship

Fri Dec 17, 2004 11:08 pm

Falcon84, dont worry, the EU have 2 equivalents of Bush, Jacques Chirac and that German guy - wanting to control the whole of Europe  Insane  Yeah sure
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
OYRJA
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RE: For A More Mature Transatlantic Relationship

Fri Dec 17, 2004 11:13 pm

Falcon84, dont worry, the EU have 2 equivalents of Bush, Jacques Chirac and that German guy - wanting to control the whole of Europe

Andreas? Klaus?  Big grin
 
gkirk
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RE: For A More Mature Transatlantic Relationship

Fri Dec 17, 2004 11:14 pm

OYRJA, you should know better than that. I said "German guy" not "German Women"  Wink/being sarcastic
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
OYRJA
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RE: For A More Mature Transatlantic Relationship

Fri Dec 17, 2004 11:17 pm

Oh yeah... Now after reading it again I see it.  Big grin
Well in that case there is only one person then. It must be David Hasselhoff. He's the closest you can get to a man in Germany  Laugh out loud

[Edited 2004-12-17 15:19:24]
 
Stratofish
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Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2001 6:38 am

RE: For A More Mature Transatlantic Relationship

Sat Dec 18, 2004 3:36 am

"Falcon84, dont worry, the EU have 2 equivalents of Bush, Jacques Chirac and that German guy - wanting to control the whole of Europe

Andreas? Klaus?"

ROFL
Well, on a more serious note, that coming from a Bri...exc.me.. Scot is troubling. The only reason why Europe isn't formed in a way that fits you more is because your puppy of Bush doesn't really care about Europe, which is a shame if you ask me, because I sometimes prefer the British ideas/ways over the French or even German ones.

From the article above:
"This perception, the best intellectual expression of which is Robert Kagan’s essay on “Paradise and Power...”
I happen to have read this imperialistic and fascist peace of cr@p. It was an irresponsible act to publish a piece of sh** of such a mad man, it's full of wrong exertations, wrong views and even wrong metaphors.
Kagan fits nicely in line with Max Weber and Josef Goebbels.

But then again, we must work on a more mature, trans-atlantic relationship, no doubt. But lets be honest: chances are slim.
Btw, I think Bush should definately NOT visit Germany next year! Let Condie come first and see.
The Metro might be the Sub(optimal)way
 
Gary2880
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RE: For A More Mature Transatlantic Relationship

Sat Dec 18, 2004 4:07 am

...care to refresh us as to exactly what was illegal about it?

what was legal about it?? you invaded another country without being attacked yourselfs, it was called the geniva convention im not sure if many americans are familiar with it, untill one of your own is captured (dont spout 9/11 crap to me we all know it had nothing to do with saddam) maybe if you hadnt trained and armed binladen in the first place it wouldnt have happend. you invaded iraq so that you wouldnt have to fight people in your own country, very cowardis, did anyone ask you to invade iraq? did it need invadeing? are you planning on invadeing scotland for our northsea oil? if its such america was only conserned for the peace of the world why not help the poor people in the sudan? why not just let saddam get on with it and send your hundreds of thousands of dollars to help the tens of thousands starving in africa?

another thing that amused me was when the news networks went on about it being legal to assassinate saddam because he was in charge of the army... so obviousley you wouldnt want one rule for someone and another rule for yourselfs would you, so i guess it must be 110% legal to assassinate bush, being commander in cheif and everything. i wish.
Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel :- Samuel Johnson
 
pilotaydin
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RE: For A More Mature Transatlantic Relationship

Sat Dec 18, 2004 1:02 pm

the people really suffering are americans...they travel to Europe less now, they def travel less to Asia and Africa, and if i said they travel less to Middle east, people would post about how this place is a shit hole....well that "shit hole" is my home....

americans will travel less to Europe, ties will reduce, economies will suffer and they will become like indigenous people in north america, bc u cant tell me that an american can go backpaking freely in the world with a large US flag on their backs without getting it or being killed....

the poor tax payers, get it right back at them from the rest of the world. Gary2880 has valid points...
The only time there is too much fuel onboard, is when you're on fire!
 
foxiboy
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Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2004 12:34 am

RE: For A More Mature Transatlantic Relationship

Sun Dec 19, 2004 7:41 pm

maybe gary has got some good pionts ,however i feel that it was good that saddam was removed that can only be a good thing for the iraqi people,as for oil i dont think any country should be attacked for natural resources,but what saddam was putting his people through was pure evil.
How do i know this well a few years ago i operated some flight on behalf of the UN evacuating iraqi kurds to the US via GUAM and to see that was heart breaking kids on thier own as their parents had been killed cos they did not agree with old MR SADDAM and the one thing i will never get over as long as i live was the 12 month old baby travelling with a UN nurse he was the size of a 6 month old and his mum,dad,2 sisters,brother, grand parents and aunt had all been shot as an example to rest of the population of his town to toe the saddam line or face the same,and the 14 year old girl who lost her parents then was raped by iraqi soldiers for fun.
Now can anyone tell me saddam should still be in charge of iraq,and he would not have gone without force nor would his evil sons.
 
EZEIZA
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RE: For A More Mature Transatlantic Relationship

Wed Dec 22, 2004 4:03 pm

Saddam is not a saint and the world would probably be safer without him. I say "would" because the problem is that the world still has to deal with another mass murderer who became president without being elected.
Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...

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