jamesag96
Posts: 2007
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Rwanda And Genocide On The History Chan.

Mon Dec 20, 2004 8:34 am

Could someone please remind me why the world sat and watched this happen...and did nothing to prevent it?

Turn this on...
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jamesag96
Posts: 2007
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RE: Rwanda And Genocide On The History Chan.

Mon Dec 20, 2004 8:37 am

800,000 in 100 days...

Most of the killing done by ordinary citizens...by hand, and whatever they could muster...
Why Kate, You're not wearing a bustle. How lewd.
 
jamesag96
Posts: 2007
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RE: Rwanda And Genocide On The History Chan.

Mon Dec 20, 2004 8:48 am

Nasal indexes and cranial measurements....interesting stuff....
Why Kate, You're not wearing a bustle. How lewd.
 
jamesag96
Posts: 2007
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RE: Rwanda And Genocide On The History Chan.

Mon Dec 20, 2004 9:10 am

General Romeo Delare the leader of the small UN force had key information-plans, locations of weapons, briefs on hardliners-prior to the massacre and planned to raid the areas where stockpiles were being stored...he faxed this info to Kofi Annan in NY who in turn told him to stand down.

Shortly thereafter the Presidents plane was shot down and the killing began.

How has Annan circumvented serious backlash from this?

Do you think he sleeps well knowing he could have prevented the killing of hundreds of thousands of human beings?

You guys should see this.
Why Kate, You're not wearing a bustle. How lewd.
 
jamesag96
Posts: 2007
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RE: Rwanda And Genocide On The History Chan.

Mon Dec 20, 2004 9:15 am

Ten Belgian peacekeepsers were also killed while protecting the Prime Minister...their bodies left mutilated.

In Ntarama...over five thousand sought refuge in numbers at a Catholic Church...amost all were beaten until death as they were escaping grenades which had been thrown inside.

Why Kate, You're not wearing a bustle. How lewd.
 
jamesag96
Posts: 2007
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RE: Rwanda And Genocide On The History Chan.

Mon Dec 20, 2004 9:22 am

So the UN not only declined General Dellaire his requests...they cut the UN presense by 90%....Belgians leaving shredded their blue UN uniforms in disgust.

Madelaine Albright and the Clinton Admin delayed the deployment of 5500 peacekeepers because they didn't want to undermine the credibility of the UN...I shit you not.
Why Kate, You're not wearing a bustle. How lewd.
 
jamesag96
Posts: 2007
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RE: Rwanda And Genocide On The History Chan.

Mon Dec 20, 2004 9:36 am

Finally the French went in with a couple thousand soldiers...and were welcomed as French Hutu brothers. Apparently the French had a long standing relationship with the Rwandan Govt....they showed one guy with a French flag taped to his head.

I guess I am the only one watching this.
Why Kate, You're not wearing a bustle. How lewd.
 
jamesag96
Posts: 2007
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2001 2:59 am

RE: Rwanda And Genocide On The History Chan.

Mon Dec 20, 2004 10:01 am

A horrible "miscalculation" by the Western world.

To think, they debated the meaning and definition of the word Genocide for weeks...with admin representatives being instructed not to use the "G" word.

Sick.
Why Kate, You're not wearing a bustle. How lewd.
 
Falcon84
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RE: Rwanda And Genocide On The History Chan.

Mon Dec 20, 2004 10:02 am

Why don't we take care if it, James? After all, we're becoming experts at dictating to other nations'.

Amazing. You're willing to bash the UN on this, but you exonerate the US on the mess it's created in Iraq. Interesting.
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jamesag96
Posts: 2007
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RE: Rwanda And Genocide On The History Chan.

Mon Dec 20, 2004 10:13 am

Not even a decent attempt at hijacking Alpha...tired?

I am watching a program specific to the Rwandan massacre...and it is interesting to see/remember how some people in the news today acted over ten years ago and what resulted.

I not only hold the UN responsible, I hold the US and the rest of the "civilized" world responsible. Perhaps the politicians of the day then don't really even give it much thought anymore...but I can assure you that each and every Rwandan will for generations to come.

Maybe we should pause a minute when Ms. Albright, Mr. Annan, or anyone that had a hand in the Rwandan Genocide give their advise on current world events...after all the results of their particular diplomacy is laid bare for us all to see...
Why Kate, You're not wearing a bustle. How lewd.
 
Falcon84
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RE: Rwanda And Genocide On The History Chan.

Mon Dec 20, 2004 10:17 am

I not only hold the UN responsible, I hold the US and the rest of the "civilized" world responsible.

Ok, James, I accept that without prejucies. It would help you to know I feel the same-there's enough blame to go around for this tragedy.

Maybe we should pause a minute when Ms. Albright, Mr. Annan, or anyone that had a hand in the Rwandan Genocide give their advise on current world events...after all the results of their particular diplomacy is laid bare for us all to see...

Funny, I was thinking the same thing about another conflict, and other, more current American leaders.

But again, I agree with you ultimately on this tragedy.
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dl021
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RE: Rwanda And Genocide On The History Chan.

Mon Dec 20, 2004 10:31 am

I think the two issues are separate.

The UN could have prevented this massacre and failed to do so. The forces necessary were on site and available. All the platitudes of "never again" after the second world war, the UN refused, again, to intervene in a genocide, and our administration played politics with this and put out an internal memo forbidding the use of the word "genocide" as if that would erase the stain of this shame from these actions.

I really think that hundreds of thousands dead from a systematic wholesale murder instigated for the purposes of who taking over the governments of two countries in the middle of Africa seemed to be less important to the UN than some unspoken political imperative to avoid conflict.

Should we dictate to other nations that genocide is unacceptable? Hell yes we should, and I really think you would agree with that. I find that hacking hundreds of thousands to death with machetes and knives to be repugnant to nth degree, and would volunteer to put a stop to it.

Go look up Romeo Dallaire from the Canadian Army and check out some of the talks he has given on what happened. Better yet send off for the tape of the program james is watching.
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Schoenorama
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RE: Rwanda And Genocide On The History Chan.

Mon Dec 20, 2004 10:44 am

Jamesag96:

Quite an interesting discussion you've got going on.... with yourself!

"How has Annan circumvented serious backlash from this?"

Annan isn't the Commander-in-Chief of the UN, James. He hasn't got 100,000 UN troops he can send in when things get really ugly. Annan relies entirely on the troops the UN Member States voluntarily commit to these nasty tasks.

It's these Member States, particularly those on the Security Council, who have the ONLY power the UN has, theoratically. Unfortunately, as happens most of the times in those global conflicts in geographical areas where oil is not an issue, it is the Security Council Member States who are largely to blame for not intervening in these genocides.

"[The] department believes that there is insufficient justification to retain a UN peacekeeping presence in Rwanda and that the international community must give highest priority to full, orderly withdrawal of all UNAMIR personnel as soon as possible""

From a April 15, 1994 de-classified secret cable from the State Department to the US Mission at the United Nations. (Source: http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB53/rw041594.pdf)

Rather then blaming Annan, blame your leaders!
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jamesag96
Posts: 2007
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RE: Rwanda And Genocide On The History Chan.

Mon Dec 20, 2004 12:19 pm

Thanks, I understand how the UN works thank you...I blamed the leaders...but I also drew attention to the time leading up to the beginning where Dellaire was specifically ordered by Annan to stand down and not act preemptively in an effort to avert the massacre.

There were already troops on the ground, and they weren't allowed to do anything...too see where I mentioned the Belgians shredding their uniforms in protest at being made to leave and not allowed to act to stop the genocide.

"[The] department believes that there is insufficient justification to retain a UN peacekeeping presence in Rwanda and that the international community must give highest priority to full, orderly withdrawal of all UNAMIR personnel as soon as possible"

Jesus...reading that cable you wouldn't think that thousands were being butchered every day...pisses me off. How did the Clinton admin and specifically Albright and friends get a pass on that one?
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dmeeky243
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RE: Rwanda And Genocide On The History Chan.

Mon Dec 20, 2004 12:21 pm

No one has mentioned Sudan yet? Hundreds of thousands dead, 2 million displaced. Whole villages massacred as recently as November. The UN has just issued a high warning on this conflict, but still not much is being done. I find it amazing that al-Bashir remains in power, not only after being an open sponsor of terrorism and being a genocidal crackpot to boot. Remember Manute Bol? He took everything he made in the NBA to get that man out of power, but yet he remains. If you are truly interested, there is a very good documentary out called the "Lost Boys of Sudan." http://www.lostboysfilm.com/

I know the topic covers the Rwandan genocide, but the Sudanese conflict is on going and recent. The movie covers the hardships of the displaced boys as they try and settle in the US but deal with the loss of their families, friends, and growing up in someplace very foreign.

I still find it stunning that we say we will help any country that wishes to join the democratic world. That's obvious in the mid-east (Mess-o-potamia/The Garden of Bleedin') where we stupidly push ahead, but we sadly never take the calls from Chechnya, DR of Congo, the Great Lakes Region of Africa (includes Rwanda) and other horribly impoverished nations. Maybe its just me....
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dl021
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RE: Rwanda And Genocide On The History Chan.

Mon Dec 20, 2004 12:32 pm

The same way they got a pass on screwing over our people in Somalia. The press managed to label that a blunder for years, even though the military did not get assets (the QR mech company from the 24th ID and AC-130 gunships to be specific) that were available and easily transported in due to political considerations.

The desire to avoid bloodshed out of fear for losing re-election prospects enabled the murderers to move unhindered and commit their crimes.

We could have put a stop to much of this with a determined effort in conjunction with the Belgians and French had the parties decided to intervene. Instead the French engaged in questionable exchanges with the Rwandans while the Belgians had to send in their Parakommando Brigade to get their troops out. I will never forget the looks of the Belgian soldiers in their trucks as they were videoed shooting their way back to the airfield for evacuation. They were pissed and I don't blame them.

The UN has managed to fail in every military effort since the Congo in 1962/3. I am surprsed that anyone expects anything different from them.
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Schoenorama
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RE: Rwanda And Genocide On The History Chan.

Mon Dec 20, 2004 12:34 pm

Jamesag96:

"Thanks, I understand how the UN works thank you...I blamed the leaders...but I also drew attention to the time leading up to the beginning where Dellaire was specifically ordered by Annan to stand down and not act preemptively in an effort to avert the massacre."

Annan's only job is to enforce what the Security Council decides, whether he likes it or not. He can't order Canadian, US or Elbonian troops under UN flag to engage in military action when the Security Council has decided not to do so.

"How did the Clinton admin and specifically Albright and friends get a pass on that one?"

They believed another involvement of US troops outside the country, after what happened in Somalia and Kosovo, would not be welcomed very much by the General Public. Whether they were right at that time or not is an entirely different discussion.
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
 
iakobos
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RE: Rwanda And Genocide On The History Chan.

Mon Dec 20, 2004 11:56 pm

Annan is like a company care-taker who is strictly bound to act within the limitations imposed by the board of directors.
Anything else requires the approval of the board.
Annan is not on the board, but still serves as a convenient punching ball when these same members of the board want to deflect critics.

When UN troops are sent somewhere they have a mandate, usually clear where it pertains to the aims, unfortunately often unclear when it pertains to the means. They have less rights than a US county sheriff though they are expected to do a lot more.

As a "peace keeping" mission, UNRWA was clearly doomed. All that were on the field knew at some stage that they were trapped.
The Rwandan warring faction did not mobilize half the country without it being noticed, the target was known, only the extent was underestimated.

The French authorities played an awkward role, no doubt about this, and they are probably the only ones that wrong or right, are not afraid to act further than the letter of their mandate, with or without UNSC approval. (eg. Darfur, Ivory Coast)
This time they choose not, shame on them, but the biggest shame resides in the total inefficiency of the UNSC and generally speaking the UN institution, which have little to do with human life but all with nations's best politics.
 
WrenchBender
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RE: Rwanda And Genocide On The History Chan.

Tue Dec 21, 2004 12:37 am

I suggest reading the book by Romeo Dallaire 'Shake Hands With The Devil'. I found it very disturbing that the UN Security Council Just did not want to admit that 'Genocide' was being commited.

WrenchBender
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jaysit
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RE: Rwanda And Genocide On The History Chan.

Tue Dec 21, 2004 12:39 am

Rwanda and Burundi just never figured high on the geopolitical scale of importance for the West. Kosovo was part of Europe, and was an issue of security for Europe.

This is very sad; yet, it is the nature of realpolitik.

Especially after what happened to US troops in Somalia, there would have been no support for a Rwandan mission. There was very little support for a Rwandan mission in the White House by then (apparently Clinton wanted to, but his admin did not), and Bob Dole had gone on record leading to his election campaign in 1996 that he would oppose any US military action in Rwanda.

Getting US troops into Bosnia was a herculean effort by Clinton in the face of opposition by Tom DeLay, Dole, and other assorted opponents who made it big election year issues.
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SlamClick
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RE: Rwanda And Genocide On The History Chan.

Tue Dec 21, 2004 1:10 am

Astonishing!

So far NOT ONE PERSON has blamed the Rwandans who were actually swinging the machetes. We shouldn't have to send armies thousands of miles to prevent people killing their neighbors. If you walk upright you are supposed to be human, otherwise, back on all fours and give us back the metal tools!




Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
iakobos
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RE: Rwanda And Genocide On The History Chan.

Tue Dec 21, 2004 5:42 am

You are right SlamClick,

..and this should be a lesson for all, that communities can be manipulated in such a way that difference based on whatever ground justifies eradicating others' life. Examples abound, even in Europe.

The enmity (=hatred) between Tutsi (the traditional rulers) and Hutus goes back a century or so, perhaps more.
Until independence, there were occasional problems, but most did not even made it into the local newspapers front page.
 
keesje
Posts: 8864
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RE: Rwanda And Genocide On The History Chan.

Tue Dec 21, 2004 6:35 am

I have no illusions what even in western societies
a well orchestrated, phased hate campaign
can make ordinary people do..

- they hate us..
- they are brutal, they kill our children..
- history shows they are after us..
- we have the right to prevent them destroying us / pay them back..

given control over the right information channels & answering to
latent pre-occupations of people in the street it always worked sofar ...

 Sad
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
iakobos
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RE: Rwanda And Genocide On The History Chan.

Tue Dec 21, 2004 7:06 am

Keesje,

I dare to think that in (most of) Europe, extremisms of any sort cannot obtain large popular support, achieve political dominance and get enough power to wage any kind of violence.

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