mdsh00
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Q For Iraq Supporters-Are You Happy W/Rumsfeld?

Mon Dec 20, 2004 7:49 pm

This question is directed towards all those who support the war in Iraq. With the motive and legality of the war aside, are you completely satisfied with the job that Donald Rumsfeld is doing? Do you feel that Iraq can be better handled from this point with someone else at the helm?

[Edited 2004-12-20 12:10:36]
"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
 
JetMechMD80
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RE: Q For Iraq Supporters:

Mon Dec 20, 2004 8:23 pm

Well, considering that he is running a war on two fronts, with a smaller force, than we had last time around, and the speed which Iraq was taken. Plus the fact that casualties have been low. Remember, we lost 7000 people in one day invading France. I think Rummy is doing the best he can with what he has to work with. Now I am not just sticking up for Rumsfeld, I have heard that his management style is pretty crude. And he needs to improve on that. As for the manpower, and the equipment, I have always felt that we went into Iraq too "light". This problem goes back to the end of the cold war, and the reduction in size in the military. Problems that happened before Rumsfeld. Also after the cold war, and when the reduction was going on, you have to remember what was in "vogue" in the pentagon at the time.
The Army was comprised of "Heavy maneuver Divisions". 1st Armored, 2nd Armored, 3rd Armored, 1st Cavalry. It was built to fight the Soviets in Western Europe. Big Tank battles. At the time, the people running the show at the pentagon, were Infrantry Generals. They felt that since we were not going to fight a war in Europe against the Warsaw Pact, that we no longer needed these large maneuver Divisions any more. They felt they were obsolete. And that the Army of the future would need to be light, and be able to go anywhere in the world at a moments notice. The word was "light Infrantry". That's what they did to the Army. It is beginning to look like a mistake. While they work very well in Afghanistan, I feel more Armor in Iraq would be helpful. An Armored Cav Division would work very well, considering what we are doing over there. However, we only have one left. But that's not Rummys fault.
Maybe that will change again. I do remember a lot of people saying we were going to have problems fighting on two fronts at once. I also feel we need more Special Forces. They have been very effective. As for equipment, we still have a very large military, and it is impossible foe everyone to have the latest and greatest equipment. By the time you equip everyone, its almost time to start over again. This was true when I was in, and I am sure it is still true. Example, My unit at the time, was the first to get M1-IP Tanks. When we got them, some units still had M-60A-3s. Obsolete. By the time they had gotten us equipped with M-1s, a new version had come out. M1-A1, with the 120mm Main Gun. That made the out tanks obsolete. And some units still had original M-1s which our IPs made obsolete. Its a constant thing. That's why I don't understand all the fuss about some Hummves not being up-armored yet. Hell the Army has like 20,000 of them. You can't do them all at once.
"I get along great with nobody"~ Billy Idol
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Q For Iraq Supporters-Are You Happy W/Rumsfeld?

Mon Dec 20, 2004 10:01 pm

Dumsfeld is an autocratic, arrogant dictator with delusions of God-hood.

He will not listen to his field commanders. He did not listen to his CoS,A (Chief of Staff, Army) Gen (Ret) Eric Shinseki when he warned against a war in Iraq as it was planned because there weren't enough troops to do the job. I believe the exact quote was "Beware the 12 Division Strategy with a 10 Divison Army". Dumsfeld is so bad that no Active Duty General Officer wanted to stick around for the top job when Shinseki left and in fact Dumsfeld brought back onto active duty an Exceptional General Officer to fill that roll, Gen Schomaker. I hope he is having better luck than Gen Shinseki.

Most soldiers, or former soldiers, will tell you in second that the manpower shortage is hurting the military in every capacity. Don't think so, then why the back to back deployments and extensions.

Developing the light attack brigades is a good thing, and I agree the Army (and other forces) need to be able to get into the fight quickly. Having said that, it will be almost undoable, in that there isn't enough airlift and sealift to get it done. So no matter how light and rapidly deployable the Army becomes, it still won't be able to get into the fight.

Equipment issues are a whole different animal. We gave the "new Iraqi Army" uniformed, weapons, ballistic armor, etc while our own soldiers were buying the stuff on the civilian market because they couldn't get it. Now that's just pure bullshit.

Armored Hummers, well, the producers of same have stated all along they could run 24/7 and produce plenty. It's the DoD dragging it's feet. Same with the body armor. There are, in my experienced opinion, no excuses for il-equipping our soldiers in the field. Although the Army has 20,000 or more, as eluded to by JetMechMD80, the only ones needing armor are the ones in theater. And at this stage in the war, 24 months or so, there is no excuse for the missing armor. The DoD was spending too much time and money getting that overgrown tonka toy - the Stryker - into the field. Oh, it deployed with the strap on armor by the way because it isn't tough enough to take an RPG. What we need over there are more Special Forces (in the cities) and Heavy Armor (elsewhere). Tanks. I spent a lot of time in the turret of an M1A1 Abrams tank and I can tell you, a tank can bring you a lot of respect from an enemy. Especially an M1A1 Abrams.

Nope, Dumsfeld is trying to fight this war on the cheap . . . and he's failing. No exit strategy, lack of equipment, excessive deployments. I could go on.

And that line of crap Dumsfeld passed to that soldier - something "we go to war with Army we have not the Army we want" - is a perfect example of his arrogance; his detached command style. You can bet your ass his hummer was armored when he was visiting. Oh, by the way, if we'd went war with Army Dumsfeld wants, it would be an even smaller Army, we can thank Congress for not allowing that to happen.

Dumsfeld has alienated soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines - as well as the public. He should plan an exit strategy himself and resign as soon as these elections in Iraq are done.

Yes, I know he was a reserve Navy flight instructor and all that rot. Doesn't make him a good field commander.



[Edited 2004-12-20 14:05:59]
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
Falcon84
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RE: Q For Iraq Supporters-Are You Happy W/Rumsfeld?

Mon Dec 20, 2004 10:22 pm

Rummy is an arrogant, small-minded man. He is one of the architects of this Iraq disaster; he has not enough troops in either Afghanistan or Iraq (which means that one, the latter, shouldn't have been fought until the former was taken care of, if at all); he's shown a lack of basics when it comes to what the troops wnat or need. He's among a host of Bush Administration officials who treat the whole world and the loyal opposition at home with a smug contempt.

Amazing, probably the most incompetent of Bush's cabinet members, he allows to stay on. Although that is problematical now, what with him continuing to step on PR and political landmines. The sooner he goes, the better off the president and the nation will be.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
b757300
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RE: Q For Iraq Supporters-Are You Happy W/Rumsfeld?

Tue Dec 21, 2004 1:28 am

Rumsfeld is doing just fine. The only people who are after him are the media (nothing new there) and the RINO's in Congress (McLame, Collins, Upchuck Hagel, etc.) who must have the approval of the New York Times in order to function everyday.

The question on armored Humvees was a plant designed to start a media feeding frenzy. Rumsfeld cannot simply order a system into production or to increase production without money and approval from Congress. Rumsfeld has been trying to rebuild the military after 8 years of gutting by Clinton and fight a war on Islamic terrorists at the same time.

As for the totally stupid issue on how he signs letters, so what? I bet every member of Congress and the media who is whining over that rarely sign their name to a letter.
"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
 
Falcon84
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RE: Q For Iraq Supporters-Are You Happy W/Rumsfeld?

Tue Dec 21, 2004 1:31 am

Rumsfeld is doing just fine. The only people who are after him are the media (nothing new there) and the RINO's in Congress (McLame, Collins, Upchuck Hagel, etc.) who must have the approval of the New York Times in order to function everyday.

ROTFL. I have NEVER seen any one live in such a delusional world as you B757300. It never ceases to amaze me how out of touch with the real world you are.  Laugh out loud

As for the totally stupid issue on how he signs letters, so what?

If it's so stupid, why did he change his tune? He's helping to send these men and women to their deaths-the least he could do is personally say "thank you for your sacrifice" to those left behind.

When you wake up and enter the real world someday, B757300, what a rude awakening you're going to have.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
StarAC17
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RE: Q For Iraq Supporters-Are You Happy W/Rumsfeld?

Tue Dec 21, 2004 2:30 am

B757300,

The liberal media crap you keep saying has lost all credibiilty, why is it you believe that EVERY media organization in the west but one is making up crap to make the president look bad. I'm sure some networks like the BBC couldn't care which way the news spins and are just being objective in saying that Iraq is not stable which is whant everyone says but fox news.

Also i'd like you to back this quote up.
The question on armored Humvees was a plant designed to start a media feeding frenzy.
Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
 
mdsh00
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RE: Q For Iraq Supporters-Are You Happy W/Rumsfeld

Tue Dec 21, 2004 2:45 am

The question on armored Humvees was a plant designed to start a media feeding frenzy.

Maybe so. That soldier was smart to ask that question on television. My guess is that the request of soldiers weren't being taken seriously. Rumsfeld's arrogant response to that summed that up.


B757300...why is it that any Republican who isn't afraid to criticize the administration becomes a RINO to you?
"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Q For Iraq Supporters-Are You Happy W/Rumsfeld?

Tue Dec 21, 2004 3:50 am

B767300: You can't blame the media for Dumsfeld's arrogant, flippant answer to the soldiers about vehicle armor - I saw it myself, live. No excuses for his arrogance when it's live, no sensationalism on the part of the media when it's live. It's just typical Dumsfeld.

Even if a reporter in fact gave the idea for the quesiton to the soldier that asked it, the answer itself was plain and simple - and on live television!

I didn't hear you address the Body Armor soldiers had to purchase themselves, after the DoD gave it all to the Iraqi Army? What say you there? Can't blame the media for that either. It happened, period.

You say "Rumsfeld cannot simply order a system into production or to increase production without money and approval from Congress." Here's a news flash for ya - he had the money and the approval. That's part of congressional record.

While I'll agree the Clinton era did the military no favors, Dumsfeld and his cronies are carrying on that tradition.

Wake up and smell the coffee pal. He's a detriment to the entire DoD.

FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
VonRichtofen
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RE: Q For Iraq Supporters-Are You Happy W/Rumsfeld?

Tue Dec 21, 2004 8:33 am

What I thought was funny was how Rummy said the reason not enough Humvee's had armour was because of production limitations. Then right after he's put on the spot by that soldier, the manufacturer announces that it's going to crank up production. So he was lying to cover his ass.


Kris
 
BN747
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RE: Q For Iraq Supporters-Are You Happy W/Rumsfeld

Tue Dec 21, 2004 8:43 am

It's been a disaster from day 1...

No matter how you dress it up now... it (and he) are a fcuk up of colossal proportions..and usually such faux pas are executed by those who have nothing to lose. As long as it's not them (or their love ones getting the shaft -- or the bullet)... what do they care? What's sorrier still are those apologist (here on A,net) for all this...

Seasons Greetings...

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
JetMechMD80
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RE: Q For Iraq Supporters-Are You Happy W/Rumsfeld?

Tue Dec 21, 2004 11:32 am

I didn't hear you address the Body Armor soldiers had to purchase themselves, after the DoD gave it all to the Iraqi Army? What say you there? Can't blame the media for that either. It happened, period.


ANCFlyer,

I do agree with much of what you have said, I having even said in a previous post that Rumsfelds management style in lacking. However I believe you are mistaken on the body armor. You are right about soldiers purchasing there own. However what they are purchasing is some of the newer stuff, that is lighter weight, and more flexible, it is also stronger. That I do not dispute. However no soldier has gone without body armor. They have always had, and they have it now. Kelvalar Flack Jackets (Body Armor). Are you saying that the DOD has acquired the newer stuff, and has given it to the Iraqi Army when our troops don't have it yet? If so please post a link to the story, I would like to read it. If that is in fact true, I will be calling my congressman, and writing the Whitehouse because, if true, that is in fact BS. I just don't believe its true.

As for the soldier that brought up the loaded question about Up-Armored Hummves, it is my understanding that his unit had 985 Hummves, at the time the question was asked, all but 20 had been Up-Armored. And within 24 hours the remaining 20 had been Up-Armored before they deployed into Iraq. So it was a non-issue for that soldier.

Like yourself, I spent time in the turrent of a M-1 Abrams MBT. My MOS was 19K20. And you and I both know that when our units were equipped with them, they didn't equip the entire Army with them at the same time. That was a huge procurement program. We have a large Army, and no large Army in the world has all of its troops equipped with the latest and greatest at once. Typically Front Line Units get the newer stuff first, and they're older equipment is passed down to 2nd tier and reserve units. Every Army in the world operates that way, including ours. As for ANG Units you know that the equipment they have is bought by the state, not the DOD. And we have many Guard Units in the theater right now. That is a state budget problem, and a procurement issue. The manufacure of the Hummve Armor is not going to sell to the Tennessee National Guard, when they still have orders to fill for the U.S.Army.

Its a problem that transcends Rumsfeld, Bush, Clinton, and anyone else. It is the erosion of our manufacturing base in this country. I remember during Desert Storm, we ran short of Cruise missiles. Marten Marietta could not build them, as fast as they were being used. In WWII Ford Chrysler GM, and any other manufacturer were taken over by the government to product armaments for the war effort. Hell they didn't build a car in this country from 1942-1946. Maybe they should do that again? It would solve the problem. I don't think the tax-payers would go for it though. People tend to forget about all that when they look back at how thing have gone, and are going. Its too easy to point the finger at a single person. Rumsfeld in this case.

But as I have said, if what you said is true, about the Iraqi's getting Body Armor before our people, please send a link. I will be right next to you raising hell about it.

Hooooah!
"I get along great with nobody"~ Billy Idol
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Q For Iraq Supporters-Are You Happy W/Rumsfeld?

Tue Dec 21, 2004 11:57 am

JetMechMD80 . . . good post.

I agree with most of it - regardless of whether the Armored Hummer issue directly affected that soldier is mute I think. The fact that his unit had almost all their Hummers uparmored is mute I think.

How long did it take to get that done? And how many more Hummers are there in the big sand box that need the work. The point was, it has taken too damn long to accomplish . . . oh, yes, I know about procurement and contracting and fielding . . . when I retired my MOS was 00Z5X. I realize not every soldier will get everything new all at once.

You mention that "typically, the front line units get the newer stuff first". Well, my friend, the Army has been drawn down to such an extent, that the entire Army is a front line unit. So standard hand me down procurement system won't work in this conflict.

I'll research the body armor issue and get it to you.

Lastly, as for finger pointing to Dumsfeld, here's a thought for you "A commander is responsible for everything his troops and his command do, and fail to do." I'm sure you've heard that one before. In this case, under Dumsfelds command, the Army Acquisition System, has failed to acquire proper equipment and get it to the field in a timely manner in order to save the lives of the soldiers on the ground. Period.

Had this problem existed for perhaps the first 6 months of this conflict I could buy the bullshit story that it takes time to get done. . . if you've ever dealt with Military Contracting, you know this to be true. Since we're 24 months, plus or minus, into this thing and still we've got troops scrounging for parts and pieces, I find that inexcusable.

Regards . . .


FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
commander_rabb
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RE: Q For Iraq Supporters-Are You Happy W/Rumsfeld?

Tue Dec 21, 2004 12:43 pm

None of you have met the man. The man cares quite a deal about the military and its men and women. Just look at how he works and judge him by his service to our country. His record is pretty good when you ask the people in the know.

The President is happy. It's his happines that matters as Commander in Chief.

A good post JetMechMD80. Keep ramming it home here and to that flying pigeon84.
 
diamond
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RE: Q For Iraq Supporters-Are You Happy W/Rumsfeld?

Tue Dec 21, 2004 1:17 pm

I'll answer this even though I am not a "supporter" of our choice to go to war.

Rumsfeld is a mediocre strategist who is increasingly out of touch with how Americans expect to be represented in modern times.

He has let the American public down with his bungling of our (lack of a) comprehensive war plan with a firm exit strategy.

He is a sexist and racist.

He supported (if not encouraged) the torture of prisoners, until it became a public relations nightmare - and he tried unsuccessfully to distance himself from his own management decisions.

He chose to send condolence letters to the families of slain soldiers with a rubber stamp signature because he was too busy to sign them himself ... until another public relations nightmare blew up in his face. Now he has agreed to sign the letters himself. Great. I feel so much better now.

He enjoys hearing himself speak and is enamored with his own "folksy" speaking style that most of us are growing quite tired of.

In his recent visit to Iraq, he stupidly said to the soldiers in the audience, " ... You go to war with the army you have not the army you might want or wish to have ... ". Although he didn't mean it this way - he essentially said "you guys are not the Army we want".

He constantly differs with Cheney, Rice and Powell. If he had significant success to back up his renegade decision-making, I'd be all for his independent streak. But given that he hasn't made a wise decision in several years - he ought to shut up for a few weeks and take someone else's advice for a change.
Blank.
 
BN747
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RE: Q For Iraq Supporters-Are You Happy W/Rumsfeld

Tue Dec 21, 2004 1:18 pm

The President is happy. It's his happines that matters as Commander in Chief.

Boy.... I didn't know sucking ass was this 'humanly' possible!!! Boy was I wrong...!

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
commander_rabb
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RE: Q For Iraq Supporters-Are You Happy W/Rumsfeld?

Tue Dec 21, 2004 1:36 pm

Boy.... I didn't know sucking ass was this 'humanly' possible!!! Boy was I wrong...!

Well, you are the expert on such matters.

LOL Boy you walked into that one square!


Thanks!!!  Big thumbs up
 
jpetekyxmd80
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RE: Q For Iraq Supporters-Are You Happy W/Rumsfeld?

Tue Dec 21, 2004 1:46 pm

As for the totally stupid issue on how he signs letters, so what?

This is such a perfect example of his ineptitude. How would you like to have a love one get killed over in Iraq and receive a glorified form letter with print in place of ink. It is really the least he could do for the families of the soldiers under his command. You talk about it as a small thing, but it really symbolizes a lack of care, nobility, and responsibility.
The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
 
Falcon84
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RE: Q For Iraq Supporters-Are You Happy W/Rumsfeld?

Tue Dec 21, 2004 1:52 pm

Listening to Commader_Rabb suck up to Bush, it's obviously that Monica Lewinsky has found her match.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
commander_rabb
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RE: Q For Iraq Supporters-Are You Happy W/Rumsfeld?

Tue Dec 21, 2004 1:54 pm

This is such a perfect example of his ineptitude. How would you like to have a love one get killed over in Iraq and receive a glorified form letter with print in place of ink. It is really the least he could do for the families of the soldiers under his command. You talk about it as a small thing, but it really symbolizes a lack of care, nobility, and responsibility.


Oh bull! How many letters did FDR sign let alone his Secretary of War?

Let those who have been visited by the Secretary speak.

A signed letter. A prop of sympathy. Please spare us as you know nothing of the dignity that occurs when an American soldier falls.

Liberals grasping at nothing.
 
Falcon84
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RE: Q For Iraq Supporters-Are You Happy W/Rumsfeld?

Tue Dec 21, 2004 1:55 pm

Liberals grasping at nothing.

Yeah, right. That's why Rumsfeld changed his tune embarrassingly fast, isn't it, Mr. Suckup?
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Q For Iraq Supporters-Are You Happy W/Rumsfeld

Tue Dec 21, 2004 1:56 pm

Rabb sounds like my pro Nazi grandfather. In a discussion he revealed to me that the officers who tried to kill Hitler back in 1944 were wrong, because you don´t change your commander in times of war, even if he is the one who started the sh*t and pulls you deeper and deeper into it.

Jan

Edit for a typo

[Edited 2004-12-21 06:00:16]
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
commander_rabb
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RE: Q For Iraq Supporters-Are You Happy W/Rumsfeld?

Tue Dec 21, 2004 1:59 pm


Yeah Pigeon84, to appease the liberal "woe is us" masses.


Jan gives us yet another stupid analogy that serves no one. Hitler was a scoundrel. You had a Nazi relative. I'd keep that quite if I were you. How embarrassing.



[Edited 2004-12-21 06:06:34]
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Q For Iraq Supporters-Are You Happy W/Rumsfeld?

Tue Dec 21, 2004 2:12 pm

Commander Rabb, today's actions in the big sand box cannot be compared to the actions of over 60 years ago in Europe. The sheer number of casualties would have made personally signing each letter by Roosevelt, or anyone else, impossible. It is entirely possible in this conflict - and in fact, Dubya is doing so. As for my knowledge of what diginities are affored a fallen soldier, I invite you to my profile.

Oh, by the way, I met the man, my last assignment was the Five Sided Funny Farm (By looking at your profile, I see you know the place well). . . my retirement date was 12/31/01, delayed three months by the 9/11 events. (I really hated my parking spot too, took me nearly longer to walk to the office than it did to get there on I-395).

Falcon is quite right in that Dumsfeld was back peddling like a duck coming into decoys when this story broke.

I would also agree with Diamond, if he had some successes in his renegade style, and we were getting more done over there, I'd term him a success. Still a pompous, arrogant ass, but a success nonetheless.

He doesn't see eye to eye with other Bush Senior staff, as has been pointed out and when it comes to SecState and NSA, that's not necessarily a good thing. Since the three of them must work together on foreign policy.

I think, Commander, there's a little more knowledge base here than you give credit.

Regards
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
commander_rabb
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RE: Q For Iraq Supporters-Are You Happy W/Rumsfeld?

Tue Dec 21, 2004 2:18 pm

Well ANCFlyer, write your Congressman. The whole issue of signatures has liberal left wing written all over it.

I am not impressed. What I am impressed with is what the military actually does for its fallen. Its more than any damn signature can ever compare to.

Sign that with a MY signature
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Q For Iraq Supporters-Are You Happy W/Rumsfeld?

Tue Dec 21, 2004 2:24 pm

Well ANCFlyer, write your Congressman.

Already done.

I am not impressed. What I am impressed with is what the military actually does for its fallen. Its more than any damn signature can ever compare to

There I will concur with you. Nothing can compare to the care given to our fallen men and women. And that signature on a piece of paper pales in that light. But to a parent, brother, sister, spouse or child - that signed piece of paper will last into infinity when the pomp and circumstance is long gone, Sir.

Regards.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Q For Iraq Supporters-Are You Happy W/Rumsfeld

Tue Dec 21, 2004 2:36 pm

Rabbit,

One of my grandfathers was probably involved in war crimes in Russia as a member of the Waffen-SS, I don´t know much about him, since he fell at Kharkov in 1943, and there are no letters left (my grandmother is dead as well and my mother was only 2 years old at this time).
Contrary to you, I´ve learned out of history, I´m a strong defender of democracy, which I can´t say of you, telling everybody with a different opinion to shut up. I´ve learned that the cause for which he probably commited the crimes and for which he in the end died was completely wrong.

You guys seem to have learned nothing at all, not out of WW2 (remember, obeying orders is not a valid defense, as seen in Nuremberg, starting a war is a crime against humanity) nor Vietnam (technology doesn´t help you much against a low tech insurgent force willing to accept heavy losses and a martyr mentality).

You demand absolute obidience from both the American public as well as the world. Thiws makes you similar to the Nazis. What was the motto of the Waffen-SS printed on their belts? "Unsere Ehre Heisst Treue", Our honour is loyality, this fits to you.

Jan

[Edited 2004-12-21 06:59:22]
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
diamond
Posts: 3000
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RE: Q For Iraq Supporters-Are You Happy W/Rumsfeld?

Tue Dec 21, 2004 3:10 pm

Too much is being made out of the condolence letters.

I mentioned them as ONE EXAMPLE of his poor decision-making. Don't hang your hat on that one alone, and then accuse liberals of grasping at straws.

Look at the big picture. It isn't anything to be too proud of either.
Blank.
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Q For Iraq Supporters-Are You Happy W/Rumsfeld?

Tue Dec 21, 2004 6:38 pm

Jan gives us yet another stupid analogy that serves no one. Hitler was a scoundrel. You had a Nazi relative. I'd keep that quite if I were you. How embarrassing.

Rabb, in case you don't know, people don't choose their relatives. But one can choose whether to support a trigger-happy bigot with totalitarian tendencies or not. You obviously made your choice. I wonder how your kids will feel about blind, pro-Bush fanaticism of their Daddy 10-15-20 years from today? Embarrasment? Shame?
You always amaze with your ability to post such cheap BS.
BTW, it was a great analogy, which Jan made, perfectly fitting you.
 
commander_rabb
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RE: Q For Iraq Supporters-Are You Happy W/Rumsfeld?

Tue Dec 21, 2004 10:31 pm

You demand absolute obidience from both the American public as well as the world.



Nothing could be further from the truth. Jan's analogy does not fit me at all and is just an attempt at grasping at straws. You don't know me....none of you do.

You always amaze with your ability to post such cheap BS.

You don't like my posts so you call it BS? Glad to amaze you and to make your one track mind think a little. I read your posts and they are very lacking of any open-mindedness. As far as your analogy is concerned about relatives and Bush, I had a good laugh. For once I got some stimulus from reading one of your posts. Thanks for that. Yuk yuk.

trigger-happy bigot with totalitarian tendencies

Are you for real or is that some of your BS just to get my goat? As I said...very lacking.

 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: Q For Iraq Supporters-Are You Happy W/Rumsfeld?

Tue Dec 21, 2004 10:39 pm

You have to forgive Corporal_Rabb. He's of the belief that supporting George Bush is one of the Ten Commandments, and if you break it, you're not only anti-American, or Un-American, but evil, too.

It's funny being called, virtually, a traitor, by someone as ignorant as this. It makes for good entertainment.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
commander_rabb
Posts: 723
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RE: Q For Iraq Supporters-Are You Happy W/Rumsfeld?

Tue Dec 21, 2004 10:46 pm

Please Pigeon84, you are so off base it's not even funny.

So what are you going to do about the U.S. in Iraq today? Well Mr. Impact? Just whine on a foreign website about airlines?

Pretty silly don't you think?

As I said before, the debate is OVER. Deal with it and support fully our winning.

Why's that so hard for you?

BTW Corporal is an enlisted rank in the Army. Please don't lump me in with them.  Smile

 
Falcon84
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RE: Q For Iraq Supporters-Are You Happy W/Rumsfeld?

Tue Dec 21, 2004 10:49 pm

So what are you going to do about the U.S. in Iraq today? Well Mr. Impact? Just whine on a foreign website about airlines?

That's all I see you doing, Corporal. You're just bitching about those who don't like the war.

And again, I haven't seen you make a single suggestion as to what I should do about the war. I'm waiting.............

What? Can't think of anything? I thought so.

What a joke you are, man.

BTW Corporal is an enlisted rank in the Army. Please don't lump me in with them.

You deserve to be near the bottom of the rung. It's so appropriate for you.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
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RE: Q For Iraq Supporters-Are You Happy W/Rumsfeld?

Tue Dec 21, 2004 10:53 pm

Commander Rabb BTW Corporal is an enlisted rank in the Army. Please don't lump me in with them.

Hey easy there killer . . . I resembled that remark (Corporal) in 1979!  Big thumbs up

I have a brother in the Navy - I always thought though he was the one mis-led as a child  Smile
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
commander_rabb
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RE: Q For Iraq Supporters-Are You Happy W/Rumsfeld?

Tue Dec 21, 2004 11:02 pm

Tell it to my commanding officer.

LOL

My suggestion to you is to put your negativity aside and fully support the U.S. wining. We are there and HAVE to win now at this point. No matter what.

You don't like us in Iraq but that's kind of like crying over spilled milk at this point. You can't do anything about it so why not get with the program and fully support our troops so we can someday leave Iraq to the Iraqi's.

After all that is what you want in the end?


Have a great morning I am off to several meetings that would make anyone's head spin.
 
Falcon84
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RE: Q For Iraq Supporters-Are You Happy W/Rumsfeld?

Tue Dec 21, 2004 11:03 pm

Well, I shouldn't even listen to you, Corporal. After all, I'm simply a traitor, right?
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
OYRJA
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RE: Q For Iraq Supporters-Are You Happy W/Rumsfeld?

Tue Dec 21, 2004 11:13 pm


The troops get my full support as well. And I'm sure as hell that Falcon as an American, support the troops as well and are very proud of them. And I am sure that the same thing goes for every American.

And yes they have to win this war. And they will. But it's gonna take much longer than they thought in the White House, since they didn't have a plan for what was going to happen after the war.

 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Q For Iraq Supporters-Are You Happy W/Rumsfeld?

Tue Dec 21, 2004 11:17 pm

Just FYI Commander Rabb, I wholly support the war, and the troops involved. I do not support Dumsfeld and his arrogant, autocratic, dictatorial management thereof.

I am off to several meetings that would make anyone's head spin. Been there done that, better you than me.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Q For Iraq Supporters-Are You Happy W/Rumsfeld

Tue Dec 21, 2004 11:28 pm

The point is that the US are winning battles with their current strategy, but loosing the war by alienating both the population of Iraq, I´ll bet that the way of the occupation has changed lots of anti -Saddam people, who have originaly welcome the Americans as liberators, into supporters of the radicals. After all the scandals concerning the justification of the war (WMDs...), the Bush administration lost all credibility abroad. Nobody wants to deal with them, even though an internationalisation of the conflict is very much needed, simply because the US ground troops seem already to be overstretched. As during the Vietnam war, it looks as if the American administration and top brass is relying too much on expensive toys, instead on soldiers on the ground and traditional human intelligence, opposite to electronic intelligence. Just be glad that you guys are fighting against mostly fanatical amateurs with a few professional terrorists in the back. If you would be fighting against a seasoned and disciplined guerilla force like the Vietcong, who by 1965 already had more than 20 years of continous combat experience, your losses would be much greater.

Sorry, but I don´t think that there will be a solution under Bush and Rumsfeld.
Rabb, I might give another 1940s analogy. Ever heard about Zarah Leander´s song "Ich weiß es wird einmal ein Wunder geschehen..." ("I know there´ll be a miracle happening some day..." from 1942)? When the department of propaganda was constantly publishing stories about "miracle weapons" to bring the final victory (Endsieg)?

You guys are stuck in a no win situation, stuck with a war for the next decades, with no chance of winning, or pulling out with your tails tucked in (And I´m not demeaning the GIs, I met very few people from the Navy, but had several friends in the US Army). The USA coming out of this unneeded conflict as a paper tiger will greatly disturb the balance of power in the world, and will in the end also hurt Europe and moderate Muslims world wide.
As hard as it is, I think the only solution will be very hard for the current administration (Kerry would have had the chance of a fresh start), it must be an about face towards the UN and Europe, a "mea culpa, sorry we f*cked" up, with a new common command over the forces in Iraq, which will enable Europe to send a few brigades.
For starters, Rumsfeld, with all his arrogance, and maybe Cheney will have to go.

This will in the end save American lifes.


Jan

Edit for a few typos, sorry, I tend to type a bit too fast




[Edited 2004-12-21 15:31:43]
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
pilotaydin
Posts: 2099
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RE: Q For Iraq Supporters-Are You Happy W/Rumsfeld?

Wed Dec 22, 2004 12:08 am

I would like to know how many Iraqis in total support the invasion, versus how many are against it....because then it would help me shape my opinion about Rum...and the general scope of what is trying to be done...
The only time there is too much fuel onboard, is when you're on fire!
 
Schoenorama
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RE: Q For Iraq Supporters-Are You Happy W/Rumsfeld

Wed Dec 22, 2004 12:22 am

Pilotaydin:

"I would like to know how many Iraqis in total support the invasion, versus how many are against it....because then it would help me shape my opinion about Rum...and the general scope of what is trying to be done..."

I don't think the ordinary iraqi is too preoccupied with these questions. I believe that to them it all boils down to the present (security) situation in Iraq today. People around the world tend to simplify these problems enormously and to the iraqis this means they ask themselves whether they are better of now, in their everyday life, than under Saddam. I have the impression that not too many Iraqis are very happy about how the Coalition has handled things in their country lately, and that they aren't too eager to have 'much-of-the-same' in the near future.
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
 
commander_rabb
Posts: 723
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RE: Q For Iraq Supporters-Are You Happy W/Rumsfeld?

Wed Dec 22, 2004 3:45 am

As hard as it is, I think the only solution will be very hard for the current administration (Kerry would have had the chance of a fresh start), it must be an about face towards the UN and Europe, a "mea culpa, sorry we f*cked" up,


We could if we did.

Face Europe? You mean Germany and France?

No thank you. We don't own anyone an apology. And we certainly don't want foreigners commnading OUR troops. Agian, no thanks.
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
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RE: Q For Iraq Supporters-Are You Happy W/Rumsfeld

Wed Dec 22, 2004 12:32 pm

Well, nobody wants to fight UNDER US command. Either eat crow or get more of your boys coming home in coffins.

Jan

Edit for typo (again!  Sad )

Jan

[Edited 2004-12-22 04:49:13]
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: Q For Iraq Supporters-Are You Happy W/Rumsfeld?

Wed Dec 22, 2004 12:42 pm

We could if we did.

We did, and we could, Private_rabb. Only ones who don't see it are goose-stepping Bush ass-wipers like yourself.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
BN747
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RE: Q For Iraq Supporters-Are You Happy W/Rumsfeld

Wed Dec 22, 2004 2:30 pm

Private_rabb??? I thought it was Commander_SuckUp... which is it? Did he promoted or demoted???

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
OYRJA
Posts: 2577
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 7:43 am

RE: Q For Iraq Supporters-Are You Happy W/Rumsfeld?

Wed Dec 22, 2004 2:41 pm

Private_rabb??? I thought it was Commander_SuckUp... which is it? Did he promoted or demoted???

Be nice to Janitor_Rabb now. They are having a hard time at Pentagon at the moment  Big grin  Laugh out loud
 
L.1011
Posts: 2164
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2001 7:46 am

RE: Q For Iraq Supporters-Are You Happy W/Rumsfeld?

Thu Dec 23, 2004 6:25 am

I still support liberating Iraq, but it has become clear that Rumsfeld royally fucked it up. It was a shame to see people like Rod Paige and Colin Powell leave, and Rummy stay. The man really is totally detached and clueless or simply uncaring about our average soldier. Powell would have done a much better job at the DoD, with his experience at the Joint Chiefs and as a General. Iraq would probably be another success at this point if he was running things.
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: Q For Iraq Supporters-Are You Happy W/Rumsfeld?

Thu Dec 23, 2004 12:44 pm

I tell ya something - if the Persident had let us finish the job in 1991, when I was there during Desert Storm 1 we'd not be having conversations on this thread right now.

Want to talk about fu*^ing things up, there's a new topic for ya.

I wholly support the operations over there, I think Rummy (or as I prefer to call him, Dumsfeld) and Company at the DoD need to find their own "exit strategy".

FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
QANTAS077
Posts: 5177
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2004 5:08 pm

RE: Q For Iraq Supporters-Are You Happy W/Rumsfeld

Thu Dec 23, 2004 7:34 pm

i think the current happenings in Iraq speak volumes on the job Rumsfeld is doing, let's hope things can get some what better before they get any worse...

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