yukimizake
Posts: 506
Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2004 10:20 am

Vermont, Canada?

Fri Dec 24, 2004 7:26 am

These people in Vermont want to secede from the United States and join Canada. They're pretty damn serious about it too, they even have bumper stickers and T-shirts.

http://www.vermontcanada.org/

Would anyone else be interested in becoming part of Canada? We'd like California and Hawaii to join.
'Opfer müssen gebracht werden (Sacrifices must be made)' - Otto Lilienthal
 
bravo7e7
Posts: 1162
Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2004 1:43 am

RE: Vermont, Canada?

Fri Dec 24, 2004 7:28 am

No thanks. i don't like socialism. Whether they are serious or not it will not happen.
 
aloges
Posts: 14842
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:38 am

RE: Vermont, Canada?

Fri Dec 24, 2004 7:55 am

"i don't like socialism."

Yadda yadda yadda... What exactly made you think Canada is socialist? Judging from your signature, maybe you were too "God damn liberal" at an earlier time, you know.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
skyservice_330
Posts: 1302
Joined: Sat Sep 16, 2000 6:50 am

RE: Vermont, Canada?

Fri Dec 24, 2004 9:09 am

SOCIALIST!!??? ..... wowzers, you're more far gone than I ever thought. Actually our two main parties are centre right and centre left with the party holding government being the latter of the two in a minority position. However, depending on which political scientists you talk to some say that Canada does not have a conservative party and both are actually on the left of the spectrum, just like some would say that the USA doesn't actually have a liberal party and both are on the right of the spectrum, however I would say that that is open to interpretation. Out of curiosity ... if Canada is socialist, then what is Sweden? ... or better yet what is the USA?

Cheers!
 
bravo7e7
Posts: 1162
Joined: Sun Jul 18, 2004 1:43 am

RE: Vermont, Canada?

Fri Dec 24, 2004 9:10 am

Sweden is also socialist. U.S is capatilistic.
 
skyservice_330
Posts: 1302
Joined: Sat Sep 16, 2000 6:50 am

RE: Vermont, Canada?

Fri Dec 24, 2004 9:19 am

I am curious to know the main differences between the two countries (Canada and the USA) that you are drawing to make such a distinction between the two. Care to elaborate...?
 
aloges
Posts: 14842
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:38 am

RE: Vermont, Canada?

Fri Dec 24, 2004 9:42 am

Thanks for making my day, BushCheney04!  Laugh out loud I figure all countries except the US are socialist?
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
TWFirst
Posts: 5752
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2000 5:30 am

RE: Vermont, Canada?

Fri Dec 24, 2004 9:48 am

Bravo7e7: Praytell... please provide an explanation as to what your understanding of socialism is. Compare and contrast with the sociopolitical system we have in America, and then provide reasons as to why you don't like the Canadian system.


This should be interesting...
An unexamined life isn't worth living.
 
theCoz
Posts: 3933
Joined: Mon Aug 16, 2004 11:06 am

RE: Vermont, Canada?

Fri Dec 24, 2004 9:48 am


SOCIALIST!!??? ..... wowzers, you're more far gone than I ever thought.


I've easily spent in upwards of 3 years living in Nova Scotia, Canada. Everyone I've talked to (including Canadaians) says that Canada is a socialist country.
 
aloges
Posts: 14842
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:38 am

RE: Vermont, Canada?

Fri Dec 24, 2004 9:53 am

Who the hell have you talked to, then?
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
theCoz
Posts: 3933
Joined: Mon Aug 16, 2004 11:06 am

RE: Vermont, Canada?

Fri Dec 24, 2004 9:55 am

People who grew up there who were 60+ years older than I was. Whom have you talked with?
 
aloges
Posts: 14842
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:38 am

RE: Vermont, Canada?

Fri Dec 24, 2004 9:59 am

Well, mostly books "talked" to me and described a planned economy as a vital (or rather mortal) ingredient of any socialist society. As well, history has proven that true socialism cannot exist in a human society, and those countries who tried ended up with communist dictatorships.

Is "socialism" used in a way as different from the European one as the way you use "liberal"?
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
theCoz
Posts: 3933
Joined: Mon Aug 16, 2004 11:06 am

RE: Vermont, Canada?

Fri Dec 24, 2004 10:23 am

That's a hard question. I'm gonna verify with people I know up there to see what their opinons are. I've never heard anything but socialist though.  Confused
 
aloges
Posts: 14842
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:38 am

RE: Vermont, Canada?

Fri Dec 24, 2004 10:31 am

Well, if they define "socialist" as "with an eye on comparable standards of living", then I could agree on it, but that's in no way socialism as it's defined in Europe. The most important part of socialism is an entirely state-controlled planned economy which therefore cannot work, close to absolute control of every individual by the state and "equalised" standards of living everywhere, meaning that a professor earns just the same as a factory worker. In other words, trash everything that might make people want to work and you've got socialism.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
skyservice_330
Posts: 1302
Joined: Sat Sep 16, 2000 6:50 am

RE: Vermont, Canada?

Fri Dec 24, 2004 10:43 am

Its frustrating when people throw terms around when they don't truly know the meaning. This has been demonstrated beautifully in this thread with respect to peoples understanding (or lack there of) of what socialism is. Aloges, you hit the nail on the head with respect to a state controlled economy which is one of the main tenants of any truly socialist state. This hardly pertains to Canada. Canada is concerned with the social welfare of its citizens however, this does not by any means make it a socialist country. Furthermore, history has proven that socialism has actually/technically never occurred in its true sense as Marx wrote the doctrine of the ideology to dictate because, as Aloges pointed out, it has resulted in totalitarian dictatorships. Heck, when Marx died he is documented as saying "I am not a Marxist" as his original idea had been changed and manipulated in ways he did not approve of. However, I digress...

BC2004/Bravo7e7, you have been asked twice to substantiate your points as to what the basis is for your argument. Now, as a student I am sure you know that any good thesis argument/statement needs to be backed up with empirical evidence, so, I ask you again... What is the basis of your claim that Canada is a socialist state, and furthermore, can you draw comparisons to the USA as to where you see the main distinctions being for your aforementioned claim.

I look forward to your reply.

Edited for a typo.

[Edited 2004-12-24 02:45:39]
 
Arrow
Posts: 2325
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2002 7:44 am

RE: Vermont, Canada?

Fri Dec 24, 2004 10:54 am

This is getting ridiculous. We're talking about degrees of socialism. To all you red-blooded capitalists out there who think the US doesn't have socialism, take a look at the Social Security system. What's that if it isn't socialist? How about public education? That's socialist, too. Unions? Yup, flagantly red. You guys are worried about Bin Laden, but the commies have already corrupted you irretrievably.

On a global socialism scale of 1-10, the U.S. is zero and Canada is 1. And I wouldn't have it any other way.

Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
 
theCoz
Posts: 3933
Joined: Mon Aug 16, 2004 11:06 am

RE: Vermont, Canada?

Fri Dec 24, 2004 10:59 am

On a global socialism scale of 1-10, the U.S. is zero and Canada is 1

You're talking about degrees of socialism too.
 
aloges
Posts: 14842
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:38 am

RE: Vermont, Canada?

Fri Dec 24, 2004 11:03 am

"You're talking about degrees of socialism too."

If someone said, "Well, I'm physically and technically able to kill someone." would you send him to death row, too? Please, degrees are degrees - every country is a bit of everything; it's a bit of a democracy, a bit of a dictatorship, a bit socialist, a bit capitalist, you get the point.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
Arrow
Posts: 2325
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2002 7:44 am

RE: Vermont, Canada?

Fri Dec 24, 2004 11:03 am

"You're talking about degrees of socialism too."

No, I'm making a smart-ass remark to point out that Canada and the U.S. are both on the "capitalist" side of the spectrum. Anyone who spurns Canada solely because it's "socialist" clearly has no idea what that means.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
 
RT514
Posts: 399
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 2:11 am

RE: Vermont, Canada?

Sat Dec 25, 2004 1:37 am

I've easily spent in upwards of 3 years living in Nova Scotia, Canada. Everyone I've talked to (including Canadaians [sic]) says that Canada is a socialist country.

What's your point, theCoz?
I've spent 5 years living in North Dakota, USA and everyone I've talked to (including Americans) says that North Dakota is a lousy place. That does not mean, however, that "everyone" is correct in their conclusions, nor is it what I've necessarily concluded.

Perhaps you're inclined to follow and believe what "everyone" says.
I'm not.
 
LH423
Posts: 5868
Joined: Sun Jul 11, 1999 6:27 am

RE: Vermont, Canada?

Sat Dec 25, 2004 2:23 am

Bravo7e7, why don't you grow up a little before you start spurting off big words that you don't know the meaning of.

Canada...I repeat...CANADA is NOT a socialist country. Having universal healthcare a socialist society does not make. That's the problem with the right of America. They see any sort of government aid to their people as a form of socialism. Here, they'd rather spend the money on unnecessary wars.

I hope to GOD that Vermont decides to join Canada. I'd be a citizen of Vermont so fast!

LH423
« On ne voit bien qu'avec le cœur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux » Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
 
duke
Posts: 1167
Joined: Tue Sep 21, 1999 9:52 pm

RE: Vermont, Canada?

Sat Dec 25, 2004 2:26 am

Well, Canada is probably more socialist on the whole than the US. Better medicare, for example. And the province of Quebec IS very socialist IMO.

By the way, I am very pro-socialist. I am not a communist, nor do I believe in free handouts to those who won't get off welfare etc. I am however still a socialist.

And if Vermont or any other state were to wish to join Canada, that would be great. Canada is IMO a more democratic, less polarized, less pompous country.
 
LH423
Posts: 5868
Joined: Sun Jul 11, 1999 6:27 am

RE: Vermont, Canada?

Sat Dec 25, 2004 2:43 am

Duke: I agree. Canada has the perfect balance of social programs (something many Americans immediately take to being socialism) and a liberal, capitalistic society.

We need more people like you to educate Americans on what Canada is REALLY like

LH423 <====Hopeful Canadian
« On ne voit bien qu'avec le cœur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux » Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
 
Qb001
Posts: 1923
Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2000 12:42 am

RE: Vermont, Canada?

Sat Dec 25, 2004 3:10 am

The previous posts escape the real debate, which is : should Vermont join Canada ?

Personally, I don't know, yet. But I do like the debate though.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
 
LH423
Posts: 5868
Joined: Sun Jul 11, 1999 6:27 am

RE: Vermont, Canada?

Sat Dec 25, 2004 3:18 am

Qb001: Here's what you gain from Vermont.

1. Some damn fine ski resorts

2. Cows

3. Ummm...well, skiing and milk are still good!

Seriously, Vermont is a beautiful state with some very friendly people. It's also extremely rural and a great way to escape from the city.

LH423
« On ne voit bien qu'avec le cœur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux » Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
 
Qb001
Posts: 1923
Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2000 12:42 am

RE: Vermont, Canada?

Sat Dec 25, 2004 6:49 am

I know Vertmont is great. I've always said that if ever I was to move south of the border, for whatever reason, that's the only place I could live.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
 
Blackbird1331
Posts: 1740
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2004 10:47 am

RE: Vermont, Canada?

Sun Dec 26, 2004 4:49 am

LH423: I wish they would join New Jersey.  Smile
Cameras shoot pictures. Guns shoot people. They have the guns.
 
slawko
Posts: 3742
Joined: Tue May 25, 1999 7:40 am

RE: Vermont, Canada?

Mon Dec 27, 2004 9:09 am

Bring them on....the bigger the better  Smile They will have to be number 12 though, im still hopfull that the Turks and Caicos will be number 11  Smile Says a lot about your country when people from other countries want to leave and join you...
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
theCoz
Posts: 3933
Joined: Mon Aug 16, 2004 11:06 am

RE: Vermont, Canada?

Mon Dec 27, 2004 10:22 am


RT514: Perhaps you're inclined to follow and believe what "everyone" says.
I'm not.


That makes absolutely no sense. If I'm not supposed to listen to Canadians about what their country is, then who do I listen to? Mexicans?

Based on your logic, you're the last person I'd listen to.
 
JetMechMD80
Posts: 370
Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2004 2:27 pm

RE: Vermont, Canada?

Mon Dec 27, 2004 11:48 am

Says a lot about your country when people from other countries want to leave and join you...


Well, since millions of people the world over have tried and still are trying to come to the United States, I would say that it says a lot about the USA also. So what's your point?

The State of Vermont is not going anywhere. It is part of the United States of America, and will continue to be. However if the people want to leave to go to Canada, more power to them. While you are at it, please take all the San Fransisco liberals, who have been crying about leaving also. Of course we all know its BS, for back in 2000, they were crying then, about leaving and moving to France or Canada, if GWB became President. And what happened? They are still here. Why? Because they are all talk, just like the losers in Vermont with the bumper stickers. This country is made up of people that were fed up with where they were at. They put their lives and there futures where there mouth was, and came to America, they risked everything for a better life. Now you have a bunch of candy-ass cry babies who whine about leaving every four years, just because there canidate didn't win the election. But they have shown what gutless wonders they are, because they whine, but they never follow through with it.

So in short, who cares? We are getting tired of hearing your bitching, leave.

For every one of you who want to leave, there are 10 people who want to come here, who are harder working, and would be grateful to be here. Hurry now, please leave.

"I get along great with nobody"~ Billy Idol
 
BOEING747-700
Posts: 1356
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2000 5:21 am

RE: Vermont, Canada?

Mon Dec 27, 2004 2:33 pm

" im still hopfull that the Turks and Caicos will be number 11"

Me too, I hope that they do become part of Canada, it will be good for everyone.
 
UN_B732
Posts: 3529
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2001 12:57 am

RE: Vermont, Canada?

Mon Dec 27, 2004 10:25 pm

Last I knew Canada is still a free capitalist market, that wasn't "planned".
I'd vote for this if it was on the ballot. We've always been free-thinkers, not to be bound by the hypocritical behavior of the swine down in Washington. And I can go sledding and not care if I break my leg  Smile.

-mr. X
What now?
 
klm672
Posts: 2514
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 1999 6:09 am

RE: Vermont, Canada?

Tue Dec 28, 2004 1:05 am

Living in VT, usa 5 MINUTES from Canada, this is the first time I have heard of such a thing..
 
RT514
Posts: 399
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 2:11 am

RE: Vermont, Canada?

Tue Dec 28, 2004 2:46 pm

TheCoz: If I'm not supposed to listen to Canadians about their country, then who do I listen to?

I suggest research. That way, you can make your own conclusion.
Besides, who said you were "not supposed" to listen to Canadians about what their country is? The fact that you claim that "everyone" in Canada says that it is a socialist country makes your assertion very suspect and probably slightly exaggerated. A much larger majority of Americans would consider Canada a "socialist country" than Canadians would.


TheCoz: Based on your logic, you're the last person I'd listen to.

Fair enough. The fundamental difference is that I, unlike you, refuse to conclude that something is fact simply because "everyone" says so.


JetMechMD80: ...Because they are all talk, just like the losers in Vermont with the bumper stickers...
...Now you have a bunch of candy-ass cry babies who whine about leaving every four years...
...We are getting tired of hearing your bitching, leave...


The "losers" in Vermont and the "Candy-ass cry babies" are simply exercising their First Amendment rights. Too bad they have to be called derogatory terms because they're doing so.
Gotta love that First Amendment... always beloved -- as long as people like what you're saying.
 
airplay
Posts: 3369
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 1:58 am

RE: Vermont, Canada?

Wed Dec 29, 2004 12:00 am

I would welcome Vermont to our glorious people's republic of Canada. Come on in! Don't worry about anything. The government will take care of everything!

Travel? You are free to come and go as you wish as long as you carry your papers but we must caution against travel across our southern frontier. They will subject you to extreme paranoia. We can't guarantee your safety or that you will be allowed to return to Canada. You may end up in Syria or be subject to arrest and held without reason. Or you may be shot. Either option has about the same odds.....

 
lowrider
Posts: 2542
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 3:09 am

RE: Vermont, Canada?

Wed Dec 29, 2004 3:35 am

Vermont is a beautiful area, but its loss would not devistate the US. Maybe some sort of trade can be worked out. We give you VT and get Toronto and allof the land between it, MI, and NY?
Proud OOTSK member

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