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HAWK21M
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Kargil War - The True Story

Wed Jan 12, 2005 2:24 am

We hear different stories from both sides.But what was the true story on the Kargil war between India & Pakistan.Why was it limited to Kargil.
What was the Aim for the Infriltration.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
trvyyz
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RE: Kargil War - The True Story

Thu Jan 13, 2005 8:47 am

Hi Hawk,

This is the map of India that I studied in my geography at Indian Central School.http://www.mapsofindia.com/maps/india/india-political-map.htm

Now tell me where is Kargil in this map.
 
mdsh00
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RE: Kargil War - The True Story

Thu Jan 13, 2005 9:56 am

.Why was it limited to Kargil.

I personally thought that it was mostly because neither side really wanted a long and protracted war. My guess is that it just fizzled away in Kargil.
"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
 
Springbok747
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RE: Kargil War - The True Story

Thu Jan 13, 2005 10:21 am

Didn't it have something to do with Pakistan wanting the entire state of Jammu & Kashmir?
אני תומך בישראל
 
mdsh00
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RE: Kargil War - The True Story

Thu Jan 13, 2005 11:40 am

Didn't it have something to do with Pakistan wanting the entire state of Jammu & Kashmir?

As the grounds for every war between India and Pakistan (except for the Bangladesh Independence War), that is a yes.
"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Kargil War - The True Story

Thu Jan 13, 2005 12:08 pm

Now tell me where is Kargil in this map.

http://www.mapsofindia.com/maps/jammuandkashmir/jammuandkashmir-district.htm

http://www.indianembassy.org/new/Kargil/J&K_Map.html

Kargil is in the Ladhak region.

The first map is not the Practical map,the 2nd is.
regds
MEL

I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
trvyyz
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RE: Kargil War - The True Story

Thu Jan 13, 2005 12:18 pm

I believed in the map I studied for almost 29 years. Do they teach the same map in India now(the one I studied)?

You mentioned in one of the posts about defeating the paks in three days.
The map doesn't justify it. What were our guys doing? watching cricket?

Santhosh
 
IndianGuy
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RE: Kargil War - The True Story

Thu Jan 13, 2005 2:13 pm

Kargil is on highway NH1A, the midpoint when driving between Leh (capital of Ladakh) and Srinagar (summer capital of Jammu & Kashmir). Kargil is also the point from where avid bikers begin the exploration of the awesome Zanskar valley. Militarily it is important because It forms the strategic node for the vital link between Leh and the rest of India.

The Pakis, helped by the presence of the grossly incompetent govt of Atal Behari Vajayee, occupied strategic points on hills overlooking the NH1A, which put the traffic on the vital higway at risk from Paki shelling. For the BJP, this war was perfectly timed as it turned this failure into a propaganda exercise to show Vajpayees "leadership". The initial military operation to dislodge the Pakis failed miserably and India had to bring in the Bofors artillery. But even round the clock shelling didnt help to dislodge the intruders. Finally it was the Americans who had to step in to help Vajpayee. After all Vajpayee had to face an election and America couldnt let its favorite stooge loose?

Kargil happened because of sheer incompetence and a criminal neglect of the security at the borders. All the Intelligence agencies, RAW, IB, even the state CID had submittted reports on the infiltration MONTHS before, which the PMO and the Home Ministry chose to sit on. While analysing the Kargil conflict, it is important to take a look at this aspect. Why wasnt any action taken on intelligence reports?

But what else can you expect from a PM like Vajpayee who preferred to spend his time nursing his favorite Sherry (90 ml a day is good for his heart, or so Pramod Mahajan told us!) and writing film songs for Shahrukh Khan while our troops were battling the Pakis to win back the land lost thrugh his incompetence.

What did Time Magazine have to say on Vajpayee again: "Asleep at the wheel"! Pretty accurate assesment!

-Roy
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Kargil War - The True Story

Thu Jan 13, 2005 6:00 pm

You mentioned in one of the posts about defeating the paks in three days
That was about the IAF grounding the PAF in Three days in 1971.

I believed in the map I studied for almost 29 years. Do they teach the same map in India now(the one I studied)?

That map is circulated all over India.However the Ground Realities were that [without going back to 1948].
Pakistan occupies 1/3rd,India the rest,while a part was handed over by Pakistan to China.

A link to the dispute:-
http://www.ieer.org/comments/dsmt/kashhist.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/2739993.stm

regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
jaysit
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RE: Kargil War - The True Story

Fri Jan 14, 2005 12:51 am

After all Vajpayee had to face an election and America couldnt let its favorite stooge loose?

Either you've been drinking Vajpayee's sherry, or are blissfully unaware of all of Washington's favorite stooges. Since when did ABV become Washington's favorite stooge? That prize goes to scores of other contenders.

In any case, Bofors or not, had Pakistan continued its path down Kargil, I doubt if the Indian government would have sat around lobbing cannon balls. The war would have escalated and Pakistan would probably have faced massive retaliation across the LOC.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
karan69
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RE: Kargil War - The True Story

Fri Jan 14, 2005 4:47 am

First of all, There were news reports on most of our channels about massive Intelligence failures,it is believed that upto a dozen patrol parties went missing or all members were reported killed.--This is around the time that the Bosses in charged figured that our Neighbours unlabelled citizens had walked into our country.

Then due to these very Bosses having to follow UN war rules/Geneva something--not sure of the body of international rules-As Roy mentioned they tried to push them back and our soldiers suffered heavy casualties.
The best option was to invade POK and then regain whatever part of LOC was taken by these "unlabelled citizens".

But then these rules apply only when India is fighting unlabelled citizens/terrorists/soldiers in disguise--AS it was later found out.
And not when the great USA invades Iraq for unknown WMD
 
jaysit
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RE: Kargil War - The True Story

Fri Jan 14, 2005 6:00 am

Then due to these very Bosses having to follow UN war rules/Geneva something--not sure of the body of international rules-

How does the Geneva Convention apply to India's reaction to Pakistan? If India had reacted to Pakistani military infiltration at Kargil, it would have been fully within its rights to blast the hell out of Pakistani garrisons at the LOC.

The Geneva convention, Articles 43 and 44, FORBIDS the use of military personnel dressed as civilians to infiltrate a country and fight as military personnel. So Pakistan was in violation of the Geneva convention.

In fact, Kargil was a victory for India on many fronts. In private, the US adopted a policy of viewing Pakistan as an aggressor nation. The Clinton administration assisted India with secret missives sent to and from the Pakistan army chief and his local army commanders. India also won support on Capitol Hill with a resolution suspending World Bank loans to Pakistan post-Kargil.

Things have changed since 9-11, but there is now a deep mistrust of Pakistan in Washington, in spite of all the "Pakistan is our friend" pronouncements.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
trvyyz
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RE: Kargil War - The True Story

Fri Jan 14, 2005 12:34 pm

Hi Guys,

Sorry for my ignorance, but when did Pakistan capture the northern part of Kashmir?ie, When did India lose more than half of Kashmir?

I only realised that we lost so much only in late 2001(after sep 11). Till that I thought that we (India) have a border with Afghanistan(as per my school map). I really felt decieved because I was taught false boundaries in school.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Kargil War - The True Story

Fri Jan 14, 2005 2:38 pm

Trvyyz......Read the Link on the history of Kashmir.It was before Kashmir had decided to join Secular India or Muslim Pakistan in 1947,that Pakistani raiders crossed over to capture Kashmir,when they had almost reached Srinagar,thats when the Maharaja of Kasmir decided to join India & Indian troops were flown in & started pushing back the raiders until the UN brokered Ceasefire was implemented [Which Nehru agreed to][Bad Decision].
Since then part was with India & part with Pakistan,before Pakistan handed over the eastern part to china to buy friendship.

India had opportunities in 1948,1971,Kargil & the Indian Parliment terrorist attack recently but we did not.

I felt 1948 & 1971 was the best opportunities.

regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)

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