Falcon84
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Common Sense From A Judge

Fri Jan 14, 2005 2:10 am

Nice to see a judge, especially in an ultra-conservative area of the South, show some common sense.

LAW/01/13/evolution.textbooks.ruling/index.html>

My kind of judge.  Big thumbs up
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Logan22L
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RE: Common Sense From A Judge

Fri Jan 14, 2005 3:01 am

Hey Falcon: I'm waiting with baited breath. The link doesn't work, and I'm curious!

Logan

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xjramper
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RE: Common Sense From A Judge

Fri Jan 14, 2005 3:05 am

an ultra-conservative area of the South

Kind of an oxy-moron isn't it?  Big grin

But I am with logan...the link doesn't work.

XJR
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Logan22L
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RE: Common Sense From A Judge

Fri Jan 14, 2005 3:18 am

Kind of an oxy-moron isn't it?

Actually the exact opposite of an oxy-moron; it's just redundant.

Logan
"The deeper you go, the higher you fly. The higher you fly, the deeper you go."
 
tbar220
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RE: Common Sense From A Judge

Fri Jan 14, 2005 3:46 am

My guess is its the story of a judge who made an Atlanta suburb school district remove stickers from its biology textbooks which read:

"Evolution is theory, not fact"
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MD-90
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RE: Common Sense From A Judge

Fri Jan 14, 2005 3:53 am

Typical responses from an "environmental scientist" in Boston and a Canadian. You obviously know very little about the South. There are areas of the South, like the Mississippi Delta, which are very Democratic (I didn't say liberal, I said Democratic).

It's oxymoron, by the way.
 
Logan22L
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RE: Common Sense From A Judge

Fri Jan 14, 2005 4:11 am

MD-90: If you don't like being stereotyped, why are you stereotyping us by saying "typical" responses? I realize that the south used to be a huge Democratic hotbed. I also realize that the vast numbers of poor people in the south managed to put a group of rich conservatives back in power because of a book and because they couldn't figure out that the book is not more important than having food on their table.

What's your beef with me being an "environmental scientist?"

Logan
"The deeper you go, the higher you fly. The higher you fly, the deeper you go."
 
SLC1
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RE: Common Sense From A Judge

Fri Jan 14, 2005 5:33 am

People who say that evolution is a theory and not a fact are obviously unaware of the definition of "theory". Go to dictionary.com and you'll get A set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts or phenomena, especially one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely accepted and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena. But even more than that a theory is a scientific idea above hypothesis and below law, a theory must be a statement of a relationship which may have a few exceptions, and is accepted as fact because it has been proven by logic, observation, and experimentation and can be used to predict outcomes (as Evolution by Natural Selection has done very well in a recent MIT computer model). Thank you UW Bio A 100. As a nat'l geo article said, the theory of evolution is just as much "just" a theory as much as the Theory of Relativity is "just" a theory, or Newton's Laws of Motion are "just" theories. In science, virtually everything is theory, but that doesn't mean it's not correct or unproven. Evolution by Natural Selection happened and is still happening! Sorry for any redundancy.

My 200th post, btw, yay for me.
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mdsh00
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RE: Common Sense From A Judge

Fri Jan 14, 2005 6:50 am

People who say that evolution is a theory and not a fact are obviously unaware of the definition of "theory".

Very true. Gravity and Relativity remain "theories" but they are mostly accepted as fact.

What few people understand is that evolution does NOT explain the origins of life, nor does it say that humans came from monkeys. True evolution is more of a fact, and there are countless examples of it happening.
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jaysit
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RE: Common Sense From A Judge

Fri Jan 14, 2005 7:40 am

I think that getting those stupid stickers removed is a good idea. I'm sick and tired of these stupid parents who want religious dogma taught as science.

However, I am uncomfortable with the Judge's ruling on unconstitutionality. I think he really stretched it a bit there. Yes, the school board's addition of the stickers to the books was in response to the religious rants of some parents, but the sticker, in effect, did not endorse any religion.
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SLC1
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RE: Common Sense From A Judge

Fri Jan 14, 2005 8:29 am


What few people understand is that evolution does NOT explain the origins of life, nor does it say that humans came from monkeys. True evolution is more of a fact, and there are countless examples of it happening.


While organic evolution does not explain the origin of life, when combined with the fossil record, it does explain that all life humans, bacteria, plants, fungae, protozoa, all kingdoms are derived from a common ancestor. And no, humans did not evolve from monkeys, as current forms do not evolve from old forms. Humans are derived from a pro-simian-like ancestor common to all primates. Our closest ancestor is the chimpanzee, we did not evolve from the chimpanzee, just as the chimpanzee did not evolve from us, we derived from a common ancestor. The first branch from our common ancestor we know as far as I'm aware is A. Afarensis "Lucy". The fossil record does not lie, and evolution has been proven true by the fossil record. The theory of evolution was developed even before it was proven true by the fossil record, and even in Darwin's day evolution was immediately accepted in the scientific community.

As far as the judge's view that the stickers were unconstitutional, I agree. The constitution does not explicitly say that there is a separation of church and state, but I believe that freedom of religion implies that all are free to choose a religious belief of their choice. To put stickers in books that denounce what has been proven true for the cause of Jewish and Christian fundamentalists is recognizing a certain religion. If I said that the Holocaust did not happen as my religious belief and stickers were put in history book, that would not be constitutional, so why should stickers in books be? Evolution belongs as fact in science class. If religion wants to teach otherwise, that's fine, in the proper place. Science does not ask for evolution to be taught in sunday school or for stickers to be placed in the bible.
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SLC1
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RE: Common Sense From A Judge

Fri Jan 14, 2005 10:44 am

I meant to say current forms are not evolved from forms that exist now, I mean to say current forms only evolve from old forms. I couldn't live with that grave error
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b757300
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RE: Common Sense From A Judge

Fri Jan 14, 2005 10:53 am

Of course you would like a judge that legislates liberal policies from the bench.

Oh, and being that the case was from the "South" has nothing to do with it. The judge is on the federal bench and was put there by Clinton so his ruling is no surprise.

And BTW, saying evolution is a "theory" has nothing to do with religion. Evolution is nothing but a theory that has never been proven, just accepted by those who want to find a way to explain our existence since they don't want to accept God put us here and created the universe.
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SLC1
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RE: Common Sense From A Judge

Fri Jan 14, 2005 10:56 am

nothing but a theory that has never been proven, just accepted by those who want to find a way to explain our existence since they don't want to accept God put us here and created the universe.

As i said, the word theory implies that it has in fact been proven, which it has repeatedly, over and over again. There is no valid evidence to contradict it that was reached by the scientific method in comparison to the mountains of evidence in support.

And I believe evolution, as does most of the world save a few funadamentalist hold-outs but i also believe in god and creation, they're not in conflict in my opinion.

[Edited 2005-01-14 02:58:06]
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Falcon84
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RE: Common Sense From A Judge

Fri Jan 14, 2005 12:42 pm

Damn, don't know what happened there, my friends. I was in a hurry when I posted. My apologies.

For some reason, I can't get this damn thing to post the link. I put in the CNN address ,but then it only brings up the address from "LAW' and afterwards. Here's the CNN article. You'll have to copy and paste. Sorry.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/01/13/evolution.textbooks.ruling/index.html
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57AZ
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RE: Common Sense From A Judge

Fri Jan 14, 2005 5:31 pm

Can't say that I'm terribly surprised about the evolution debate being brought up in the courts again. This has been something of a routine matter since many states legislated what could be taught in school back many years ago. The most famous of the anti-evolution laws was Tennessee's Butler Act, passed in 1925. The folks in Monkeytown were looking to challenge it (actually they were just looking to use it to get in the national media spotlight) and got the ACLU and a local high school science teacher, John Scopes, to challange it. When he was charged with a violation of the Butler Act, the businessfolk in Monkeytown and the ACLU put on Scope's defense with Clarance Darrow countering the prosection's Special Prosecutor, William Jennings Bryant. Bryant eventually won the case, convicting Scopes on the misdemeanor charge. The fine and court costs were paid by the town and life went on. However, the rest of the nation looked at Monkeytown as somewhat backwards for quite some time. Wonder what they think of the folks trying to grandstand there in the Peach State?

For those of you who do not know the true identity of Monkeytown which I speak of, look up the topic Scopes Monkey Trial. It will tell you the true name of Monkeytown.
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aloges
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RE: Common Sense From A Judge

Fri Jan 14, 2005 8:00 pm

"And BTW, saying evolution is a "theory" has nothing to do with religion. Evolution is nothing but a theory that has never been proven, just accepted by those who want to find a way to explain our existence since they don't want to accept God put us here and created the universe."

First of all, God's existance hasn't been proven either.

And why would a person like me who is convinced our world was not created like the Bible says automatically negate the existance of a God? We don't know exactly how the "Big Bang" happened, and I doubt we ever will - some kind of deity might well be behind it. However, the history of creation as in the Bible is a story that people used for the purpose of explaining why things were the way they were - people who lived thousands of years ago, without any means to actually tell why things were the way they were. I just think we're a bit more advanced today.

Does that fit in a black-and-white world? No? I'm terribly sorry.  Insane
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MxCtrlr
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RE: Common Sense From A Judge

Fri Jan 14, 2005 8:42 pm

I believe the stickers went over the line and should be removed - not because they are unconstitutional but rather it sends the wrong message. Science is the art of proving out theories. There are several instances where science has proven that evolution exists. What should have happened is the books should explain that some people believe in the creation theory (those who take the Bible at nothing more than verbatim face value) but that most Scientists believe in the evolution theory.

While I believe people can teach their kids to religious, teaching them that the Bible is to be taken word-for-word, verbatim, is scary!

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