StowAway
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Inauguration Prayer Ban Decision Expected Friday

Fri Jan 14, 2005 10:06 am

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,144261,00.html

This is bull. The tradition has been around 200 years! So what if they want to start with a prayer? The Presidency needs a prayer with as much heat as he takes nowadays!

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EA CO AS
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RE: Inauguration Prayer Ban Decision Expected Friday

Fri Jan 14, 2005 10:11 am

Y'know what though - who is the judicial branch going to get to enforce a "no prayer" ruling, should one come out? If the President decides he's going to have it done - as the head of the executive branch - who would stop him?
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xjramper
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RE: Inauguration Prayer Ban Decision Expected Friday

Fri Jan 14, 2005 10:15 am

You know they might as well knock out the 1st ammendment. Pretty soon there will be a book taught to the school children about what they can say, how they can say it, when and where they can say it, and to whom they can say it to.

If you are an atheist, don't listen to the prayer, be respectful to the people who will listen, and then redirect your attention back to the front when the prayer is done.

XJR
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Newark777
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RE: Inauguration Prayer Ban Decision Expected Friday

Fri Jan 14, 2005 10:15 am

If I were Bush, I would say my own prayer at the inauguration, courts be damned. As a religious man, he should be able to say a prayer at his own presidential inauguration if he wants.

Harry
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xjramper
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RE: Inauguration Prayer Ban Decision Expected Friday

Fri Jan 14, 2005 10:17 am

as the head of the executive branch - who would stop him?

He has control of 1/3 of the US branches. That is why there are three different branches...so they have checks and balances.

XJR
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Newark777
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RE: Inauguration Prayer Ban Decision Expected Friday

Fri Jan 14, 2005 10:17 am

If you are an atheist, don't listen to the prayer, be respectful to the people who will listen, and then redirect your attention back to the front when the prayer is done.

Exactly. But instead of this, they try to inconvenience the rest of us by telling us what we can say. Special interest groups in this country are horrible, and we are turning into a country of minority rule.

Harry
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dtwclipper
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RE: Inauguration Prayer Ban Decision Expected Friday

Fri Jan 14, 2005 10:19 am

StowAway,

I hate to correct you, and I know you ditto heads just hate when fox and rush are wrong, but the phrase "under god" was only added to the pledge in the 1950's.

Secondly, there have been presidents, I can't remember right off hand which ones, who took their oaths without mention of God.


Also, please remember, that the "founding fathers" were really closer to being diests then contemporary conservative Christians.

And please, get over it. There is no persecution of Christians, and Christian values in the US.

dtwclipper

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b757300
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RE: Inauguration Prayer Ban Decision Expected Friday

Fri Jan 14, 2005 10:23 am

Y'know what though - who is the judicial branch going to get to enforce a "no prayer" ruling, should one come out? If the President decides he's going to have it done - as the head of the executive branch - who would stop him?

As Andrew Jackson said "John Marshall has made his decision. Now let him enforce it."
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RE: Inauguration Prayer Ban Decision Expected Friday

Fri Jan 14, 2005 10:27 am

as the head of the executive branch - who would stop him?

He has control of 1/3 of the US branches. That is why there are three different branches...so they have checks and balances.


Yes, and that's also why there are separation of powers, too. Meaning the President could effectively ignore such an order if he wanted, since the court lacks ENFORCEMENT authority.
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Newark777
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RE: Inauguration Prayer Ban Decision Expected Friday

Fri Jan 14, 2005 10:35 am

I hate to correct you, and I know you ditto heads just hate when fox and rush are wrong, but the phrase "under god" was only added to the pledge in the 1950's.

When did we start talking about the pledge? People think that they can just drop this fact in here, when it has absolutely nothing to do with what we are talking about, and it instantly means that separation of church and state is necessary. Either way, I still pledge allegiance to one nation, under God.

Harry
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StowAway
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RE: Inauguration Prayer Ban Decision Expected Friday

Fri Jan 14, 2005 10:35 am

I hate to correct you, and I know you ditto heads just hate when fox and rush are wrong, but the phrase "under god" was only added to the pledge in the 1950's.

This country was founded under the belief of God. Just because it wasn't included in our pledge until 1950 is irrelevant.

Secondly, there have been presidents, I can't remember right off hand which ones, who took their oaths without mention of God.

That is certainly their right. By that same token, it would be President Bush's right to say a prayer, yes?

Also, please remember, that the "founding fathers" were really closer to being diests then contemporary conservative Christians.

Honestly, I was not aware that the founding fathers were close to being diests. Which founding fathers are you speaking of? The article mentions that this tradition dates back to Washington's days.

And please, get over it. There is no persecution of Christians, and Christian values in the US.

I disagree. We have people trying to take away Christmas. We have atheists like the one mentioned above who want "under god," removed from the pledge. Now this? Let's not even get into the radical and offensive remarks that are made against Christians on this board alone! BN747 serves as a good example of that. Christian values are being persecuted in our current culture war.

You know, it is a lot easier just to ignore the prayer.
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dtwclipper
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RE: Inauguration Prayer Ban Decision Expected Friday

Fri Jan 14, 2005 11:22 am

"Christian values are being persecuted in our current culture war."

Right!

You know what, this is not a Christian country....period. I am not Christian, and I am an American and not a traitor, as you people like to call all non-believers. I feel that you people are trying to turn this country into a radical fundamentals state no better than those in the middle east!

"Also, please remember, that the "founding fathers" were really closer to being diests then contemporary conservative Christians"

Read your history, of Jefferson, Franklin, et al. I would be more than happy to recommend a few books, though they are most likely not sanctioned by FOX.

My grandfather fought in WWI, my father in WWII, and my brother in Viet Nam, we are just as American as the Christian conservatives!

I am a patriot who hates the direction this country is going in. No one is trying to take away Christmas, but buddy, you don't need to ram it down the throats of everyone.


[Edited 2005-01-14 03:25:17]
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StowAway
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RE: Inauguration Prayer Ban Decision Expected Friday

Fri Jan 14, 2005 11:38 am

You know what, this is not a Christian country....period. I am not Christian, and I am an American and not a traitor, as you people like to call all non-believers. I feel that you people are trying to turn this country into a radical fundamentals state no better than those in the middle east!

You are right. This is not a Christian country. This is a free country, and all are permitted to worship whoever they please. Listen to yourself. "You people." I never called you a traitor. Somebody else might have, but I didn't. To group me in with them is asinine, and just proves my point for me.

Read your history, of Jefferson, Franklin, et al. I would be more than happy to recommend a few books, though they are most likely not sanctioned by FOX.

I know my history pretty well. I never heard of those people practicing those beliefs. That is why I asked you. Will you be enlightening me, or will you be spouting off venomous statements as the one above?


My grandfather fought in WWI, my father in WWII, and my brother in Viet Nam, we are just as American as the Christian conservatives!

I agree, 150%

No one is trying to take away Christmas, but buddy, you don't need to ram it down the throats of everyone.

I am going to have to throw the B.S. flag. It is no longer a Christmas tree. It is now a "Holiday Tree." All over the country different groups are trying to take Christmas out of the holidays. It is fine if you don't want to celebrate Christmas. However, some of us really do take it as a religious holiday. Please don't ruin it for us. I ,for one, hate the commercialism of Christmas, as well.
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dl021
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RE: Inauguration Prayer Ban Decision Expected Frid

Fri Jan 14, 2005 11:45 am

Well, to be accurate, yes....people are trying to take away Christmas. The Holiday is continually being removed from the public eye, and not just in government. Department stores instructed their people to avoid saying Merry Christmas during the Christmas season that provides them their biggest buying period of the year. It seems they are spitting on the hand that feeds them.

The founding fathers were mixed in their religious beliefs, some were deists, notably Jefferson and Franklin, but others were rather devout in their religious beliefs.

The observance of religious rites and ceremonies does not establish a religion of the state, any more than my wishing a Jewish person "Happy Hanukkah" makes me a Jew.

This person who is attacking religion through the courts obviously has some outside help behind him. His desire to harm organized religion seems to be moving into the realm of obsession, and will work to limit the rights of others.
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yyz717
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RE: Inauguration Prayer Ban Decision Expected Friday

Fri Jan 14, 2005 12:12 pm

The US is a largely Christian nation, whether devout or secular. Any non-Christians came to the US as a Christian majority nation and shared in the bounty that the Christian majority created so no one should be offended by a Christian prayer. Anyone who is, is a whiner.

This political correctness has got to stop

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StowAway
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RE: Inauguration Prayer Ban Decision Expected Friday

Fri Jan 14, 2005 12:26 pm

Yyz717, Talk about short,simple,and to the point! Nicely put.  Big thumbs up

DL021,
The observance of religious rites and ceremonies does not establish a religion of the state, any more than my wishing a Jewish person "Happy Hanukkah" makes me a Jew.

You pegged it on the nose! Our country is about embracing all religions!
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scottieprecord
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RE: Inauguration Prayer Ban Decision Expected Friday

Fri Jan 14, 2005 12:36 pm

Happy Christmahanukwanzaka...

I think this says it all.

-Mike
 
Falcon84
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RE: Inauguration Prayer Ban Decision Expected Friday

Fri Jan 14, 2005 12:37 pm

As Andrew Jackson said "John Marshall has made his decision. Now let him enforce it."

Dammit, B757300, you stole my thunder!  Laugh out loud

Again, the Constitution guarantees freedom OF Religion, not freedom FROM religion.
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dtwclipper
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RE: Inauguration Prayer Ban Decision Expected Friday

Fri Jan 14, 2005 12:43 pm

Any non-Christians came to the US as a Christian majority nation and shared in the bounty that the Christian majority created so no one should be offended by a Christian prayer. Anyone who is, is a whiner

What absolute drivel! Shared in the bounty...shared in the bounty! You people need to take some history lessons!

Let's just look at the Jews in colonial America!




The first Jews in the United States came from Portuguese-ruled Brazil. In 1654, twenty-three adult Spanish-Portuguese (Sephardic) Jews arrived in New Amsterdam. In 1655, more Jews arrived from Holland. Nine years later, the British took over what would become New York and the situation regarding freedom of worship improved from that time.

In colonial times, Jews settled along the Atlantic coast and in several southern states. The Touro Synagogue, built in 1773, still stands as a memorial to the patriot and philanthropist Judah Touro

And what about:

Haym Solomon, backer of the revolutionary war!

He was an astute merchant and banker and succeeded in accumulating a huge fortune, which he subsequently devoted to the use of the American Government during the American Revolution. For example, he negotiated all the war aid from France and Holland, endorsing and selling bills to American merchants.

He was the paymaster-general of the French military forces in the early times of the United States. It is asserted that over $100,000 he advanced was never repaid. He lent the young United Sates government about $600,000, and at his death about $400,000 of this amount had not been repaid. This was irrespective of what he had lent to statesman and others while performing public duties and trusts.

He was a brilliant financier and one of George Washington's personal friends. At one point he was sentenced to death by the British, but he bribed his jailer and escaped. During the American Revolution, Solomon went to France and raised an additional 3.5 million British pounds from the Sassoon and Rothschild banking houses and families. He spoke eight languages. When Solomon was in France he passed himself off as a French diplomat.

[edit]
Historical legends about him
Solomon supposedly wrote the first draft of the United States Constitution according to some historians. Some claim that he designed The Great Seal of the United States , which is why it has what some believe resembles a Jewish Star above the eagle's head design, and it is also on the back of every American one dollar bill. He believed the United States would become a world power. At war's end, many in the Continental Congress were desperately poor and ironically Solomon too died completely bankrupt.

[edit]
Jewish pride
He was involved in Jewish community affairs, being a member of Mikveh Israel Congregation in Philadelphia, and in 1782 made the largest individual contribution towards the construction of its main building. In 1783 Haym Solomon and other prominent Jews appealed to the Pennsylvania Council of Censors urging them to remove the religious test oath required for office-holding under the State Constitution. In 1784, he answered Anti-Semitic slander in the press by stating: "I am a Jew; it is my own nation; I do not despair that we shall obtain every other privilege that we aspire to enjoy along with our fellow-citizens."

[edit]
Early death
The gravesite of Haym Solomon is at Mikveh Israel Cemetery in Philadelphia , it is unmarked, and two plaques memorialize him. The following obituary was printed in the Independent Gazetteer: "Thursday, last, expired, after a lingering illness, Mr. Hyam Solomon, an eminent broker of this city, was a native of Poland, and of the Hebrew nation. He was remarkable for his skill and integrity in his profession, and for his generous and humane deportment. His remains were yesterday deposited in the burial ground of the synagogue of this city." He is commemorated by a marble tablet on its east wall installed by his great-grandson, William Salomon. A granite memorial is set inside the gate of the cemetery.

[edit]
Honors, testimonials, and memorials
In 1893 a bill was presented before the 52nd United States Congress ordering a gold medal struck in recognition of Solomon's contributions to the United States. In 1941 the writer Howard Fast wrote a book "Haym Salomon Son of Liberty". In 1941, the George Washington-Robert Morris-Haym Salomon Memorial was erected along Wacker Drive in downtown Chicago. In 1975 the United States Postal Service issued a commemorative stamp honoring Haym Soloman for his contributions to the cause of the American Revolution. This stamp was uniquely printed on the front and the back. On the glue side of the stamp, the following words were printed in pale, green ink:

"Financial Hero - Businessman and broker Haym Salomon was responsible for raising most of the money needed to finance the American Revolution and later to save the new nation from collapse."

Many Historians have said that without his contribution to the cause "there would be no America today".

[edit]
1975 stamp issued by USPS: First day cover honoring Haym Salomon
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StowAway
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RE: Inauguration Prayer Ban Decision Expected Friday

Fri Jan 14, 2005 12:50 pm

Outstanding, DTW. That only proves the point that religion has a big place in America.
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yyz717
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RE: Inauguration Prayer Ban Decision Expected Friday

Fri Jan 14, 2005 1:03 pm

Let's just look at the Jews in colonial America!

Oh please. No offense to US Jews but they were, and are, a tiny minority. Never more than 2% of the population. Their contribution to the US is tiny as it is with any 2% minority group.

The Christian identity in the US eclipses the Jewish identity by a factor of 40 or 50 to 1 based on demographics. It always has.
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dtwclipper
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RE: Inauguration Prayer Ban Decision Expected Friday

Fri Jan 14, 2005 1:18 pm

StowAway & Yyz717,

You missed the point of my example. The US is not a Christian Country, we do not have a state religion, nor should the values of the majority be forced on others. This is not (yet) a theocracy.

Secondly, YYZ, you said everyone else shared in the bounty that the colonial Christians (I paraphrase) created. That's just not so, and is basically revisionist history.

"Oh please. No offense to US Jews but they were, and are, a tiny minority. Never more than 2% of the population. Their contribution to the US is tiny as it is with any 2% minority group"

The Jewish contribution to American society is proportionately far greater then the numbers of its citizens, that is a fact.

History is not black or white, but has many different facets.
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StowAway
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RE: Inauguration Prayer Ban Decision Expected Friday

Fri Jan 14, 2005 1:28 pm

The US is not a Christian Country, we do not have a state religion, nor should the values of the majority be forced on others. This is not (yet) a theocracy.

I did not miss your point. I agree that we have no state religion. All religions are welcome to be practiced. However, you are 110% wrong when you say that the values of the majority are being forced on others. YOU are YOUR own person. It is YOUR job to think for YOURSELF. If people want to celebrate a religious holiday, or open with a prayer at their presidential inauguration, so be it! That is the beautiful thing about freedom.
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xjramper
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RE: Inauguration Prayer Ban Decision Expected Friday

Fri Jan 14, 2005 1:42 pm

Ok....YYZ show me the numbers from a credible source and then I may believe you.

Not sure how Christmas was brought into this, but I may need to remind you that Christmas barely relates to Christianity. Back in the late 1800s there was a man by the name of Saint Nicholas who went around his hometown orphanages and placed presents in all the children's shoes. This was the beginning of Santa Claus. Presents (pagan) were put under a spruce tree (pagan) that was decorated (pagan) with lights (pagan) ornaments (pagan) and the occasional Candy cane (pagan). Since then, every December 25, (pagan...actual birth and death of Christ happened in spring time) Christmas morning children would awake at the crack of dawn to find presents awaiting them under this tree. That is what we people see when it comes to Christmas today.

Now, I want you to find Saint Nick and Santa Claus and everything else that I listed there anywhere in the Christian bible. What?!?!?!? Not there?!?!?!?!? Its gotta be somewhere in Christian doctrine. NADA people. Its not Christian...Christmas is pagan not Christian(if you don't know what pagan means...Id suggest you look it up...or everything that preceded pagan will have no meaning)

And the phrase...In God We Trust:

Almost everyone has a god...it doesn't say In Jesus We Trust, In Yaweh We Trust, In Buddha We Trust....It says In God We Trust...with the God part interchangeable. And for those non-believers, Its called Freedom OF SPEECH and Freedom OF RELIGION.

XJR
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StowAway
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RE: Inauguration Prayer Ban Decision Expected Friday

Fri Jan 14, 2005 1:55 pm

XJR,

I had actually never heard where the story of present day "Christmas" stems from. Pretty interesting!

actual birth and death of Christ happened in spring time)

Last I heard the birth was believed to be in August. Those who believe really don't know the actual time, and Christmas is used as the time to remember the birth by those who choose to. BUT, Your are definitely right that Christmas can mean so many other non religious things.

Almost everyone has a god...it doesn't say In Jesus We Trust, In Yaweh We Trust, In Buddha We Trust....It says In God We Trust...with the God part interchangeable. And for those non-believers, Its called Freedom OF SPEECH and Freedom OF RELIGION.

Well said
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LOT767-300ER
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RE: Inauguration Prayer Ban Decision Expected Frid

Fri Jan 14, 2005 2:07 pm

"Ok....YYZ show me the numbers from a credible source and then I may believe you."

Theres about 5.5 million Jews in the USA, and about 160 million of Christians.

Thats about 33 Christians to every Jewish person.

http://www.jafi.org.il/press/2002/dec/dec4a.htm

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_prac2.htm
 
xjramper
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RE: Inauguration Prayer Ban Decision Expected Friday

Fri Jan 14, 2005 2:14 pm

Thank you for correcting me LOT. I was under the (wrong) assumption that there were a lot more than that. Apprectiate it as always:

XJR
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MaverickM11
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RE: Inauguration Prayer Ban Decision Expected Friday

Fri Jan 14, 2005 2:16 pm

"Never more than 2% of the population. Their contribution to the US is tiny as it is with any 2% minority group"

You need to move that decimal one place to the left.

"This political correctness has got to stop"

Amen, pun intended. We have to have a goddam circle jerk every time a Buddhist monk pontificates at the local university campus but if a Christian does the same he's a "Jesus freak". They're either both freaks or both worthy of our collective drooling.
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Pendrilsaint
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RE: Inauguration Prayer Ban Decision Expected Friday

Fri Jan 14, 2005 2:53 pm

I don't understand where the need for a prayer at the innaugeration comes up? We are an incredibly diverse nation and there are more than practicing Christians present at the innaugeration and watching via television. 293 million Americans in the United States, with 160 million would seem to make a majority (although I dubiously look at these numbers), however what about the 130 million other AMERICANS? Why alienate them? Why set them apart?

And, anyone that would quote Andrew Jackson should study their history a bit more. When we begin to spout lofty rhetoric like "let Marshall enforce his ruling," we run the risk of encountering Tocqueville's and Mill's tyranny of the majority, where you have a Christian majority saying well stop us from saying a prayer even if it alienates you.....Thank god for checks and balances....
 
StowAway
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RE: Inauguration Prayer Ban Decision Expected Friday

Fri Jan 14, 2005 3:04 pm

Pendrilsaint,

Bush is a man whose faith is very important to him. It changed who he was. Why shouldn't he have the right to lead his inauguration with a prayer? It is not alienating anybody. People who don't recognize, or even agree with a religion should not be offended when they hear somebody exercising a different religious act.

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kalakaua
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RE: Inauguration Prayer Ban Decision Expected Friday

Fri Jan 14, 2005 3:14 pm

The constitution does NOT separate church and state. The constitution PREVENTS government from establishing and sanctioning one religion over another. This argument that we are not a Christian nation is false. We are however, tolerant of other beliefs and our government is prevented from sanctioning ONE religion faith in our country.

The thought that having The President of the United States of America saying a prayer abridges this amendment to our Constitution or abridges the rights of anyone is intellectually dishonest and hyperbole at best. If anything, the denial of a persons desire to recite a prayer abridges their constitutional right.

Amendment I: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Gravity explains the motions of the planets, but it cannot explain who set the planets in motion.
 
kalakaua
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RE: Inauguration Prayer Ban Decision Expected Friday

Fri Jan 14, 2005 3:20 pm

Should we also ban the "Before Christ, Anno Domini" calendars, too?
Gravity explains the motions of the planets, but it cannot explain who set the planets in motion.
 
skyservice_330
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RE: Inauguration Prayer Ban Decision Expected Friday

Fri Jan 14, 2005 3:24 pm

This debate should not be focused on Christians being persecuted or freedom of religion or freedom from religion. This debate is about one thing only really. That being is the US of A a secular society? If yes, then there should be no mention of God, Buddha, or whatever else you may have. It is the distinction that religion should be kept entirely separate of the state and all its functions. If this is in fact the case then there should be no prayer, plain and simple. Not because it is a Christian prayer and not because it may be a prayer of any other world religion. There should be no mixing of any religion, Christian, Jewish, Catholic etc., with the states functions.

 
rjpieces
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RE: Inauguration Prayer Ban Decision Expected Frid

Fri Jan 14, 2005 3:49 pm

Oh please. No offense to US Jews but they were, and are, a tiny minority. Never more than 2% of the population. Their contribution to the US is tiny as it is with any 2% minority group.

LOL. Off the top of my head, I can't think of any immigrant group that has had more of a contribution on the US. Jews might be a small percentage of the population, but they are disproportionately represented in science, politics, colleges, as doctors, dentists, lawyers, in journalism, and in most professional fields. Not to mention that Jews practically built Hollywood, most of the major department stores in the late 1800s, the list goes on and on.

The Christian identity in the US eclipses the Jewish identity by a factor of 40 or 50 to 1 based on demographics. It always has.

Nonetheless, in surveys most Americans think that there are a lot more Jews in the US than really are. This is because Americans, as a testament to how much of an open and tolerant society they built, have gone out of their way to embrace Judaism--Be it in elevating Chanukah (easily the least important Jewish holiday) to make it a well known, recognizable holiday, be it in government officials constantly emphasizing the Judeo-Christian roots of the country, be it in often having events presided over by both a minister and a rabbi, be it in it in support of Israel, or be it in fighting for the rights of Soviet Jews to move in the 1970s and 1980s.

Heck, Jewish influence on the founding fathers is a fascinating topic. John Adams once wrote to Thomas Jefferson that "I will insist that the Hebrews have done more to civilize man than any other nation." If anyone wants to read more, check out the first essay on this site:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/roots_of_US-Israel.html

[Edited 2005-01-14 08:11:59]
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StowAway
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RE: Inauguration Prayer Ban Decision Expected Friday

Fri Jan 14, 2005 3:49 pm

There should be no mixing of any religion, Christian, Jewish, Catholic etc., with the states functions.

Not a possibility if you are looking to lead a civilized society, IMO.


Time to punch out for the night!
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skyservice_330
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RE: Inauguration Prayer Ban Decision Expected Friday

Fri Jan 14, 2005 3:56 pm

Interesting ... care to elaborate though? Is it fair to assume that you believe that to develop or lead a civilized society there needs to be a strong religious or spiritual underpinning? Please correct me if I am wrong.

Regards.
 
Falcon84
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RE: Inauguration Prayer Ban Decision Expected Friday

Fri Jan 14, 2005 11:34 pm

I don't understand where the need for a prayer at the innaugeration comes up? We are an incredibly diverse nation and there are more than practicing Christians present at the innaugeration and watching via television.

So you don't understand it. Does that mean that we should automatically dismiss it? And so there are more than just Christians watching. If they're offended by the invocation of the word "God" (not Jesus, not Buddah, not Mohammad, but "God"), then that's just too bad.

Does it REALLY injure you, or anyone else, to hear that one word? Unfortunately, many people are trying to turn the word God into a four-letter word, that shouldn't be uttered anywhere. Sorry, but they can stick it, far as I'm concerned. God is a presence, in some form, in the lives of about 95% of Americans. And we should let the other 5% dictate when His name is uttered? Right.

Simply saying the word "God" is not promoting any faith. It's an expression of faith, not religion.

And I'm not worried. No matter what this Court says, I'm sure the Oath will be administered with the words "So help me God", and be damned this one bitter, vindictive man who is trying to ban His name from existence.
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Inauguration Prayer Ban Decision Expected Friday

Sat Jan 15, 2005 2:16 am

Dtwclipper Secondly, there have been presidents, I can't remember right off hand which ones, who took their oaths without mention of God Prove that.

Dtwclipper No one is trying to take away Christmas, Utter bullshit. Read the calendars at workplaces and schools and everywhere else. Look at the end of December and see if doesn't say "Winter Holiday". But you can bet your butt it also says Kwanzaa, Hannukah etc.

This country is too damned worried about offending someone. I say if the athiest asshole in California doesn't want to hear a prayer at the inauguration - then turn off his blasted TV. If he doesn't want his kid saying "Under GOd" in the pledge - tell her not to say it.

The country was formed based on Christian morals and values. I do not begrudge anyone their religion or beliefs (another freedom in this country I fought to preserve) and I'll be damned if they'll ruin mine.

Personally, I could care less whether there is or is not a prayer at the inauguration. I do however believe it's the right of the Persident to have one if he wants - knowing Dubya, it'll be about the first thing he does - and not the right of some lunatic in California to put a stop to it. Don't like prayers, don't pray. . . simple as that. Do NOT force anyone else not to pray. It's their right.

And the ACLU be damned . . .

Don't like it, get the hell out! I for one will not miss you.


FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
StowAway
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RE: Inauguration Prayer Ban Decision Expected Friday

Sat Jan 15, 2005 5:14 am

Interesting ... care to elaborate though? Is it fair to assume that you believe that to develop or lead a civilized society there needs to be a strong religious or spiritual underpinning? Please correct me if I am wrong.

SKYSERVICE, Yes. (Sorry, went away for the night before you posted)

I believe in order to lead a civilized society; one has to have some sort of spiritual core. No matter what religion it is. A society that does not embrace all forms of religion, and tries to shun it from everyday life is doomed.
A monkey's ass always talks crap.
 
777236ER
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RE: Inauguration Prayer Ban Decision Expected Friday

Sat Jan 15, 2005 5:22 am

I believe in order to lead a civilized society; one has to have some sort of spiritual core.

Britain is civilised, and doesn't have a spiritual core.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Inauguration Prayer Ban Decision Expected Friday

Sat Jan 15, 2005 5:24 am

Britain is civilised, and doesn't have a spiritual core.

Church of England? Did I miss something? Archbishop of Canterbury? Maybe I watch too much TV or something . . .
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
777236ER
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RE: Inauguration Prayer Ban Decision Expected Friday

Sat Jan 15, 2005 5:25 am

The Church of England isn't actually the church of England, it's merely a denomination of church. The Archbishop of Canterbury isn't the archbishop of Canterbury.

Maybe you do watch too much TV, because Britain doesn't have a spiritual core.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
Newark777
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RE: Inauguration Prayer Ban Decision Expected Friday

Sat Jan 15, 2005 5:34 am

Getting off the topic of England's religious affiliations, the fact remains that many opinion polls during the election showed that a majority of Americans want a president with a strong religious core. Why do you think Kerry tried to portray himself as a strong Catholic during the election? To appeal to the majority of the electorate who want a religious president.

Harry
Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
 
StowAway
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RE: Inauguration Prayer Ban Decision Expected Friday

Sat Jan 15, 2005 5:35 am

777236ER,as usual, you miss the mark.

I was not talking about a country have AN OFFICIAL RELIGION. I was saying that a country MUST EMBRACE ALL RELIGIONS. Your country embraces all religions, doesn't it?
A monkey's ass always talks crap.
 
777236ER
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RE: Inauguration Prayer Ban Decision Expected Friday

Sat Jan 15, 2005 5:41 am

No, the country embraces NO religions, but ALLOWS people to embrace religions. Britain doesn't have a 'national' religion, nor a national spiritualism.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
xjramper
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RE: Inauguration Prayer Ban Decision Expected Friday

Sat Jan 15, 2005 5:45 am

Harry,

Altho a presidential candidate has a religious background...its only part of the equation. Mainly, the man has to have a family. Look at the Mass. senator who finally came out of the closet. He was a man in high office, but he had to hide the fact that he was gay and have a family to get that seat.

People want to see a person who is married and has kids. It shows that he has balanced that responsibility into his professional life. That's the biggie.

Kerry tried to portray his faith due to the overwhelming American say that a leader needs to have faith. Another one of his many, many facades.

XJR
Look ma' no hands!
 
dtwclipper
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RE: Inauguration Prayer Ban Decision Expected Friday

Sat Jan 15, 2005 5:45 am

ANCFlyer:

I just love proving you guys wrong!

Presidents have appealed to the deity in their oaths since the inauguration of George Washington.[159] When President Washington completed his constitutional oath of office, his hand placed on a Masonic Bible, he added, spontaneously, "I swear, so help me God"

The Constitution does not require the new president to place his hand on a Bible while repeating the oath. The tradition has been kept since George Washington — with the exception of Theodore Roosevelt, who did not use a Bible nor reply "I swear so help me God" when he took the oath


"Utter bullshit. Read the calendars at workplaces and schools and everywhere else. Look at the end of December and see if doesn't say "Winter Holiday". But you can bet your butt it also says Kwanzaa, Hannukah etc"

I just looked at every calendar at my house, and each one says Christmas, Good Friday, and Easter.....

I post the sources of these if you like, but you wouldn't belive it anyway, because it is probalbly a liberal elitist who wrote it.
Compare New York Air, the Airline that works for your Business
 
xjramper
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RE: Inauguration Prayer Ban Decision Expected Friday

Sat Jan 15, 2005 5:49 am

No, the country embraces NO religions, but ALLOWS people to embrace religions

Thats the point he is trying to make.

Britain doesn't have a 'national' religion, nor a national spiritualism

Neither does the US. Thats why we have the Freedom of Religion. Christianity just happens to be the majority.

I post the sources of these if you like, but you wouldn't belive it anyway, because it is probalbly a liberal elitist who wrote it

Post them. Let us decide whether or not its a "liberal elitist"

XJR
Look ma' no hands!
 
Newark777
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RE: Inauguration Prayer Ban Decision Expected Friday

Sat Jan 15, 2005 5:49 am

Kerry tried to portray his faith due to the overwhelming American say that a leader needs to have faith. Another one of his many, many facades.

That is the exact point I was trying to make. And speaking of gay politicians, don't forget the infamous governor of our great Garden State.  Big grin

Harry
Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
 
StowAway
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RE: Inauguration Prayer Ban Decision Expected Friday

Sat Jan 15, 2005 5:52 am

777,

__________ This is the level that this conversation is on








_________ You are here**

If the country allows freedom of religion, then it EMBRACES ALL RELIGIONS. Geese,man
A monkey's ass always talks crap.

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