atrude777
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When Does A Baby Have A Soul?

Fri Jan 28, 2005 9:47 am

We were talking about abortion today in class and the pros and cons etc etc. and some argued it was killing a baby regardless if its a mass of cells or a body and etc etc. Well i had thought of something on the religious side, so if your religius especially on the christian side, im curious tpo hear your thoughts. when a baby is amde, at what point does it have a soul? in the begining when its a mass of cells? when its born? when its fully done (9th month)? or when? All of us cannot remember past maybe 2 or 3 yrs of age. we especially do not remember being born or living up to the age of 1 even though we had a soul. im curious as to when you think a baby is given a soul?

Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
 
mbmbos
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RE: When Does A Baby Have A Soul?

Fri Jan 28, 2005 10:01 am

Hate to break it to you, but you're not going to get anywhere constructive with this conversation until you define "soul".

And, by the way, do any of us have a soul? Can you prove that any of us do?
 
TWFirst
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RE: When Does A Baby Have A Soul?

Fri Jan 28, 2005 10:01 am

After the application is processed.. usually takes 6-8 weeks after birth
An unexamined life isn't worth living.
 
SlamClick
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RE: When Does A Baby Have A Soul?

Fri Jan 28, 2005 10:02 am

And he is from the Vatican. He should know!
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
mbmbos
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RE: When Does A Baby Have A Soul?

Fri Jan 28, 2005 10:03 am

TWFirst,

Do you receive the approval by mail? And can you speed up the process by going online?
 
PJS800
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RE: When Does A Baby Have A Soul?

Fri Jan 28, 2005 10:07 am

Have no idea about this, but I figure since churches don't want abortion at all it would have to have a soul as soon as it was conceived. Just a guess.

P.J.
 
TWFirst
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RE: When Does A Baby Have A Soul?

Fri Jan 28, 2005 10:07 am

Everything MUST be filled out in triplicate (one copy for Big Daddy, JC and the H to the G)... parents (if known) receive a confirmation by return mail... as mentioned, certificate arrives about 6-8 weeks after received at central processing.

No web site as of yet, but it's coming...
An unexamined life isn't worth living.
 
redngold
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RE: When Does A Baby Have A Soul?

Fri Jan 28, 2005 10:13 am

http://www.bfl.org/bible_and_abortion.htm

Not necessarily about when the baby has a soul, rather who determines the beginning and end of life.
Up, up and away!
 
Ant72LBA
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RE: When Does A Baby Have A Soul?

Fri Jan 28, 2005 10:20 am

When it listens to its first Aretha Franklin album?
 
redngold
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RE: When Does A Baby Have A Soul?

Fri Jan 28, 2005 10:28 am

*snicker* @ Ant72LBA  Big thumbs up
Up, up and away!
 
sleekjet
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RE: When Does A Baby Have A Soul?

Fri Jan 28, 2005 10:35 am

I'm going to say at conception. At that point, there is life...and since there is life, there is a soul involved.

Meaning, if a mother-to-be miscarries, I fully believe that soul enters heaven.
II Cor. 4:17-18
 
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aerorobnz
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RE: When Does A Baby Have A Soul?

Fri Jan 28, 2005 10:44 am

When it becomes a small baby, rather than a large foetus.... Ie: when it becomes recognisably human.
Your soul comes from experiences you feel from outside elements that make you identify that you are 'you'. It would not exist unless you had thoughts that were 'that's me & that's somebody else'. You only develop that from interaction with others with that ability.
Once the baby in the uterus is old enough to be able to respond to music and other stimulae and poke it's mother's tummy in response that is where 'the soul' is first developed. As you develop so does your soul, like a rodent's teeth it grows constantly from experiences until you die - and it ceases to exist again.
I think abortion should be available for those who need it, but only in the first 10 weeks after conception - before it has a chance to develop a soul.
Flown to 120 Airports in 44 Countries on 73 Operators. Visited 55 Countries and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.
 
atrude777
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RE: When Does A Baby Have A Soul?

Fri Jan 28, 2005 10:56 am

Funny remarks to those that made it, i appreciated them. However I think aerorobonz hit it on the head. at what point do we define we and you and I? For example, when we r first conceieved supossedly we wont hve a soul, so if the soul was supossed to enter that body yet the "baby" was damaged before, can that soul re-enter another body? If the baby dies before the completed 9 months, does it have a soul to go to heaven? How about premature babies that were born at the 26th week, 10 weeks before the scheduled date. they have a soul when born so im sure they have a soul now. I am glad to see it hasnt turned into a big argument as I do not want to talk about abortion per se but specifically when you believe the baby has something to live on, make him/her think for themselevs.
Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
 
SLC1
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RE: When Does A Baby Have A Soul?

Fri Jan 28, 2005 10:57 am

Since soul is a highly religious idea I will refer instead to a being. I don't believe that there is any given moment at which a child goes from a mass of cells to a being of its own right, rather it's a gradual progression until the child is fully grown, and continues from that point on.
We're gonna do what we like to call a "jetBlue how do you do", which is slang for dumping a bunch of fuel in the ocean
 
planespotterx
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RE: When Does A Baby Have A Soul?

Fri Jan 28, 2005 11:07 am

Our "soul" is just intelligence thats being passed down through the generations, our personality is determined by our surroundings, how we were interracted with as a child etc.
I dont think theres some magical soul thing inside us, thats like saying Santa exists..our soul is just our intelligence, nothing more..IMO anyway.
Its not the fall that kills u, its the sudden stop at the end..
 
SFOMEX
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RE: When Does A Baby Have A Soul?

Fri Jan 28, 2005 3:06 pm

Everything MUST be filled out in triplicate (one copy for Big Daddy, JC and the H to the G)... parents (if known) receive a confirmation by return mail... as mentioned, certificate arrives about 6-8 weeks after received at central processing.

No web site as of yet, but it's coming...


TWFirst, so it's ok to mock Christian beliefs now? Coming for the Defender-in chief of Gay rights is kind of hard to understand it. You get as mad as hell when you read homophobic posts, denouncing the bigotry of those right-wing nuts; yet, making fun of other's religious beliefs is just fine to you. After all, you are just joking right?

Think about it.
The only thing worst than the GOP is the Democratic Party, think about it!
 
flybyguy
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RE: When Does A Baby Have A Soul?

Fri Jan 28, 2005 3:54 pm

It is my understanding that the soul comes into being upon conception. Life is not necessary cut and dry as "oh wait... it's only human if we could rip it out of the womb and it survives."

I believe that it is very important that when a child is conceived he/she IS a human being and must be treated as such. If anything has the potential for life and an individual impedes this potential, then that individual is a murderer plain and simple. Rationalizing the termination of innocent lives when the mother's life is not in peril is the downfall of our society.

A "woman's right to choose" is a farce concocted by the far-left and feminists. I'll tell you exactly what women are supposed to be choosing... NOT TO HAVE SEX. Is life all about pleasure and no responsibility or moral conviction? And the blame also falls squarely upon men who view women as tools to quench their insatiable lusts.

Guys, women are more than boobs and backsides.
"Are you a pretender... or a thoroughbred?!" - Professor Matt Miller
 
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aerorobnz
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RE: When Does A Baby Have A Soul?

Fri Jan 28, 2005 5:52 pm

I think we all know that they aren't just tits and ass. A woman does take sex more seriously than you give them credit for. Just because one would consider abortion does not make them a slut. Some of the girls I have been out with have been staunchly against sex before marriage yet have told me if the chips were down and they got pregnant in a rape/sexual assault or if they were not in a position to care for a child in the way a child should be treated or indeed if they were not physically able to complete the pregnancy with undergoing a huge health risk they would have an abortion. Who would blame them?
Abortion as a procedure would be the absolute last resort, because of the physical & emotional pain that goes with it, but as they, and they alone are going to be pregnant with the child it is their decision to make.

While the zygote is a zygote it has been programmed to be human, but it has not yet reached a recognizable human form. At this point it cannot think for itself, cannot feed itself, cannot breathe cannot do anything. It is like a trojan horse virus...it is programmed to function a certain way, but is not a virus until iit is activated on a certain timeframe, or subjected to a stimulae that 'brings it to life'. In this case when organs are developed enough to begin the next part of pregnancy - Growth into a larger baby in preparation for survival after birth. This point is far earlier than if it were 'pulled out of the womb it would survive.'
Anything before that and it would small enough if miscarried you'd barely notice it amongst the menstrual lining. That does not yet have a soul, looks like a maggot and really you couldn't say was a human. It is to a human what a caterpillar is to a butterfly, not yet a butterfly, but once it enters the Chrysalis it will transform into the final product. The Chrysalis stage is the stage in pregnancy that I mentioned earlier.
Flown to 120 Airports in 44 Countries on 73 Operators. Visited 55 Countries and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.
 
Dasa
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RE: When Does A Baby Have A Soul?

Fri Jan 28, 2005 9:21 pm

When Does A Baby Have A Soul?

Never.
 
duke
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RE: When Does A Baby Have A Soul?

Fri Jan 28, 2005 9:57 pm

I believe a baby has a soul and is a living being from the moment of conception. I am patently against abortion, except in the case of saving a mother's life.
 
KROC
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RE: When Does A Baby Have A Soul?

Fri Jan 28, 2005 10:40 pm

A baby has a soul when its born and is exposed to the actual world.
 
TWFirst
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RE: When Does A Baby Have A Soul?

Sat Jan 29, 2005 12:05 am

SFOMEX... I was brought up mega-Catholic. Without going into detail, as an adult, I have been privy to what's behind the incense and gold monstrances and silk robes... and I know of what I speak.

I admit there is a fine line with humor... believe it or not, I don't take myself too seriously. I do not mind good-natured jokes about gay people or gay culture... I make the same kinds of jokes. The fine line comes in ascertaining the mindset of the person making the joke - whether the intent is malicious or not. It's the same concept as the rules surrounding the use of the "N" word. And in my posts above, I am not maliciously making fun of all Christian beliefs... it is only fundamentalists that say I don't have a right to exist or share the same legal rights as them that I have a problem with. I do not say and would never say that religious folk do not have a right to believe whatever they want, although it is very difficult for me to understand people who do not question what they're taught.

In conclusion.. sorry if I offended you, but I still don't see anything wrong with making a silly joke about the S.A.P.... (soul acquisition process)  Smile.
An unexamined life isn't worth living.
 
sebolino
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RE: When Does A Baby Have A Soul?

Sat Jan 29, 2005 12:40 am

I don't know for the soul, and in fact you don't know either, but he's got a begining of conscience when his neurons are starting their chemical communication, after a few days or weeks, don't know really.
 
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aerorobnz
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RE: When Does A Baby Have A Soul?

Sat Jan 29, 2005 6:07 am

Abortion to save the life of the mother is still abortion. If you approve of that you approve of abortion because technically you are still 'killing'(for want of a better word) the embreyo/foetus... lets call a spade a spade here. There is no happy median that makes one type of abortion any better or worse than another. Abortion, like any other type of surgery is a process that should be available to people if they choose to have that done to them. Whether the rest of us care for it or not is not actually relevent. There are consequences to any decision, and that's just something we all just live with and accept as part of life. You live your life, and they'll live theirs.
Flown to 120 Airports in 44 Countries on 73 Operators. Visited 55 Countries and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.
 
theCoz
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RE: When Does A Baby Have A Soul?

Sat Jan 29, 2005 6:36 am

My life never really began until I climbed out of the abortion bucket.

Signed,
Chris78cpr
 
PacificWestern
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RE: When Does A Baby Have A Soul?

Sat Jan 29, 2005 12:06 pm

Bah...most adults I know of have no souls. Did they have them as babies and lost them later? I'd be glad to know.
 
DeltaGuy
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RE: When Does A Baby Have A Soul?

Sat Jan 29, 2005 6:13 pm

A baby has a soul when concieved, IMHO. It's not the court's right to tell us when a baby's life begins, and what is considered murder/not murder.

I know half of you probably don't believe in the Bible, but from my seat, I find this to explain it all....

"For Thou form my inward parts: Thou didst weave me in my mother's womb. I will give thanks to Thee, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made ." Psalm 139:13-14

DeltaGuy

"The cockpit, what is it?" "It's the little room in the front of the plane where the pilot sits, but that's not importan
 
TWFirst
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RE: When Does A Baby Have A Soul?

Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:42 am

>>It's not the court's right to tell us when a baby's life begins, and what is considered murder/not murder.<<


I see... so you could be shot dead, and it's not the court's right to say whether it's considered murder/not murder??
An unexamined life isn't worth living.
 
flybyguy
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RE: When Does A Baby Have A Soul?

Sun Jan 30, 2005 4:38 am

That is not what DeltaGuy meant TWFirst... he simply stated that many-at-times very liberal judges bypass moral values when it comes to the defense of the unborn.
"Are you a pretender... or a thoroughbred?!" - Professor Matt Miller
 
diamond
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RE: When Does A Baby Have A Soul?

Sun Jan 30, 2005 4:42 am

" ... at-times very liberal judges bypass moral values ... "

And at times, very conservative judges manufacture moral values to justify their own bigotry and biases.
Blank.
 
LifelinerOne
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RE: When Does A Baby Have A Soul?

Sun Jan 30, 2005 5:02 am

Funny and mainly interesting to see the comments coming from the US on abortion. As you may all know, or know it now from me, abortion is legal here in The Netherlands.

Now people can say a lot about my country, that we are a god-forgiven country, having soft-drugs legalized as well as the red-light districts. We also give people of the same gender the chance to get married and we also have the possibility to end someone's live if the patient is suffering unbearable with no view of recovery.

Being not that old, all these things came up in the last 10-15 years, however abortion is I think longer allowed.

I think abortion is a woman's right. You, and you only decide what's going to happen with your life. Of course, abortion isn't done lightly. An extensive interview with a shrink is obligatory before the abortion and there's an maximum time-span in which the foetus can be removed. During the interview with the shrink, many women rethink their options and change their minds. Others don't and proceed.

Sometimes, but very rare, protests are held to prevent abortion, but they are always swept away. The Netherlands have "removed" religion from it's politics and that's a good thing. Religion is emotion and emotion isn't always the best when making decisions. It makes judgement cloudy.

Just my €0,02.
Only Those Who Sleep Don't Make Mistakes
 
SFOMEX
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RE: When Does A Baby Have A Soul?

Sun Jan 30, 2005 6:19 am

The Netherlands have "removed" religion from it's politics and that's a good thing. Religion is emotion and emotion isn't always the best when making decisions. It makes judgement cloudy.

The separation between Church and State has been a milestone for modern society. Yet, what the Netherlands and some other countries have done goes beyond that separation. In fact, their goal is precisely "to remove" religion from their society. They don't want separation, they look for the eradication of any religious expression. The big deal in America right now is that some judges and politicians want the same and become activists pursuing that goal. Their dream is not about religious liberty and tolerance. Their dream is about a secular society where religion is a matter of the past and not longer important. In my view, those secularism activist are as wrong as the religious fundamentalist.
The only thing worst than the GOP is the Democratic Party, think about it!
 
Blackbird1331
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RE: When Does A Baby Have A Soul?

Sun Jan 30, 2005 7:45 am

When it can determine between right and wrong and then determins to do right. If it goes astray. It is held accountable.
Cameras shoot pictures. Guns shoot people. They have the guns.
 
TWFirst
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RE: When Does A Baby Have A Soul?

Sun Jan 30, 2005 8:02 am

>>That is not what DeltaGuy meant TWFirst... he simply stated that many-at-times very liberal judges bypass moral values when it comes to the defense of the unborn .<<


Why is it so hard for people to understand that a legal decision CAN be made based purely on law, not merely on the "liberal" or "conservative" social opinions or moral values of the judge. It doesn't take a degree in rocket science to see that our constitution doesn't allow the government to force a woman to go through 40 weeks of pregnancy and the pain of childbirth against her will. Furthermore, how in the world can the legal rights of a gestating mass of cells that is not even a citizen override and supercede those of an adult, sensient, constitutionally-protected citizen?
An unexamined life isn't worth living.
 
LifelinerOne
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RE: When Does A Baby Have A Soul?

Sun Jan 30, 2005 8:26 am

Yet, what the Netherlands and some other countries have done goes beyond that separation. In fact, their goal is precisely "to remove" religion from their society. They don't want separation, they look for the eradication of any religious expression.

That's not quite true. We encourage people to get involved in any religion they want. However, the government and therefore the people, think that it's completely up to yourself to choose your religion. The Netherlands is a very multi cultural society, with many religions. To keep our society running, we can't have religion have a part in government decisions, as it will always affect a group of people which can result in protests.

To have a religion is very good, to have your government making decisions based on a religion that you don't support isn't good. And there's no way stopping this as the multi cultural society is something we started ourselves back in the 1960's by importing cheap labor in from countries like Marocco and Turkey. We brought them in and therefore brought in their religions. And we must be glad they were there, because these people helped to build our economy.

Cheers!
Only Those Who Sleep Don't Make Mistakes
 
msllsmith
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RE: When Does A Baby Have A Soul?

Sun Jan 30, 2005 9:35 am

Aerorobnz and many others here are wise beyond their years.

Without going in to the dreaded feminist rhetoric, ...... when men can give birth we'll get a definition ...... really...... of when a "baby gets a soul"......

(Of course those same guys will have to stay home and raise them and work and keep house and not miss work and be "full time" "mothers".......)


There's nothing more beautiful than flying into the dawn.
 
b757300
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RE: When Does A Baby Have A Soul?

Sun Jan 30, 2005 10:09 am

I'm going to say at conception. At that point, there is life...and since there is life, there is a soul involved.

Meaning, if a mother-to-be miscarries, I fully believe that soul enters heaven.


I'll second that although I'm sure such a view isn't shared by most on this forum.
"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
 
PacificWestern
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RE: When Does A Baby Have A Soul?

Sun Jan 30, 2005 10:51 am

Meaning, if a mother-to-be miscarries, I fully believe that soul enters heaven.

And if an abortion occurs, that which you once considered as having a soul, no longer has one to enter Heaven?
 
TWFirst
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RE: When Does A Baby Have A Soul?

Sun Jan 30, 2005 11:12 am

Great point PacificWestern!!...

So, abortion is really sending babies to heaven instead of having them be born crack-addicted into poverty...

Fundamentalists: why is that bad?
An unexamined life isn't worth living.
 
DeltaGuy
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RE: When Does A Baby Have A Soul?

Mon Jan 31, 2005 12:26 am

Meaning, if a mother-to-be miscarries, I fully believe that soul enters heaven.

Agreed here too....but sending them to heaven (eternal paradise, which isn't a bad thing at all), but they never got a chance to live, isn't preferable to letting them be born into whatever situation....would you rather have said you lived for awhile (abiet drug circumstances, etc etc), then never lived at all?

DeltaGuy
"The cockpit, what is it?" "It's the little room in the front of the plane where the pilot sits, but that's not importan
 
TWFirst
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RE: When Does A Baby Have A Soul?

Mon Jan 31, 2005 1:06 am

>>would you rather have said you lived for awhile (abiet drug circumstances, etc etc), then never lived at all?<<

Ummm... let's see.... eternal paradise, or... being burned with cigarettes, never fed, horribly beaten and neglected by a drug-addicted prostitute mother and her boyfriend.... hmmm, which one would I choose???


FWIW... Catholic doctrine holds that unbaptized babies that die don't go to heaven.. they go to "Limbo". Not purgatory, not heaven, but some other eternal existence. Can't remember why it's not as good as heaven... I think you don't get to spend as much time with the big guy, or something like that.
An unexamined life isn't worth living.
 
atrude777
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RE: When Does A Baby Have A Soul?

Mon Jan 31, 2005 2:28 am

I have heard for catholics, since babies who have died before being baptised, they do not enter heaven, but rather enter a certain area, before heaven, and examined before god to see if they are fit for heaven. Because one has the saying, even as a baby, you are still born with a sin? what is the sin? I believe we are born with the power to commit a sin, but to be born with a sin? So if that is true, babies who died because of abortion or misscarriage do not enter heaven, at least not yet. same goes for babies who died after being born and did not have time to be baptised.

Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
 
aa757first
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RE: When Does A Baby Have A Soul?

Mon Jan 31, 2005 4:07 am

what is the sin? I believe we are born with the power to commit a sin, but to be born with a sin?

It's Original Sin. We are punished because of the actions of Adam and Eve, hence Original Sin. Baptism removes this sin. However, in all of my nine religion text books, they say this is given to born babies. A miscarriage or an aborted baby isn't really born, is it?

I have heard for Catholics, since babies who have died before being baptised, they do not enter heaven, but rather enter a certain area, before heaven, and examined before God to see if they are fit for heaven.

This is known as Purgatory (sp?). I like to believe, as most other Catholics, that babies are welcomed to heaven. Its also important to note that anyone can baptize. You should really baptize the baby right after its born, and then have the "official" ceremony.

Its also important to note that, in the eyes of the Catholic church, abortion is the same as shooting a grown person: it is murder. If you have an abortion, you are immediately excommunicated, meaning you are no longer welcomed into the Church.

AAndrew
 
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aerorobnz
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RE: When Does A Baby Have A Soul?

Mon Jan 31, 2005 6:58 am

"If you have an abortion, you are immediately excommunicated, meaning you are no longer welcomed into the Church."
Yes true, but how would they know if they have had an abortion or not? It isn't something you go around telling everybody you've had it done.
Flown to 120 Airports in 44 Countries on 73 Operators. Visited 55 Countries and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.
 
aa757first
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RE: When Does A Baby Have A Soul?

Mon Jan 31, 2005 9:00 am

God knows, Aerorobnz. So, even if you don't tell anyone, you are no longer welcomed to the Church.

AAndrew
 
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aerorobnz
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RE: When Does A Baby Have A Soul?

Mon Jan 31, 2005 10:03 am

I see.... he is however supposed to be a forgiving and unconditionally loving God....so with that in mind...I would keep practising if I were in that position.
Flown to 120 Airports in 44 Countries on 73 Operators. Visited 55 Countries and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.
 
PacificWestern
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RE: When Does A Baby Have A Soul?

Mon Jan 31, 2005 10:17 am

God knows, Aerorobnz. So, even if you don't tell anyone, you are no longer welcomed to the Church.

Question: Does God know that the Pope doesn't always necessarily speak for HIM, but rather for what the Pope just thinks God wants??
 
SFOMEX
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RE: When Does A Baby Have A Soul?

Mon Jan 31, 2005 2:32 pm

Catholic doctrine holds that unbaptized babies that die don't go to heaven.. they go to "Limbo". Not purgatory, not heaven, but some other eternal existence. Can't remember why it's not as good as heaven... I think you don't get to spend as much time with the big guy, or something like that.

Not totally true. Limbo, as you said, is still part of the Catholic doctrine and it's pretty much as you described it. Yet, Baptism of Desire is also part of our beliefs, and a really important part. Baptism of Desire means that if somebody doesn't get the chance to be baptized because of causes beyond his/her control, that person is considered baptized because he/she wanted to be part of the Church and that's enough to be accepted into Heaven with God. As you can see, a little baby who is killed during an abortion fulfills this Baptism of Desire. Therefore, he/she goes to Heaven.

Does God know that the Pope doesn't always necessarily speak for HIM, but rather for what the Pope just thinks God wants??

Remember, the Pope speaks by divine inspiration (Holy Spirit) only in matters of faith and discipline. In any other matter, he's only expressing his opinion.
The only thing worst than the GOP is the Democratic Party, think about it!
 
JOSEMEX
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RE: When Does A Baby Have A Soul?

Mon Jan 31, 2005 2:55 pm



SFOMEX,

Can you please e-mail me? My mail is in my profile.
 
Lan_Fanatic
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RE: When Does A Baby Have A Soul?

Mon Jan 31, 2005 10:02 pm

Does baptism make you a catholic?

if so...

As you can see, a little baby who is killed during an abortion fulfills this Baptism of Desire. Therefore, he/she goes to Heaven

an aborted baby is considered catholic?

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