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alberchico
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Will Russia Join The E.U?

Fri Feb 11, 2005 11:32 am

if their economy improves over the next 5-10 years is there a chance?
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alberchico
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RE: Will Russia Join The E.U?

Fri Feb 11, 2005 11:53 am

or will the russian leaders themselves reject any notion of joining it
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david b.
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RE: Will Russia Join The E.U?

Fri Feb 11, 2005 12:04 pm

I don't think so. Russia will never make it. They are at least 10 years behind in almost everything. Also, only half of russia can joint the EU. The rest of Russia is in Asia.
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EZEIZA
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RE: Will Russia Join The E.U?

Fri Feb 11, 2005 12:04 pm

I think it will never happen, and besides, there are oother countries that are first in line for becoming members.
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ConcordeBoy
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RE: Will Russia Join The E.U?

Fri Feb 11, 2005 12:08 pm

Also, only half of russia can joint the EU. The rest of Russia is in Asia.

Tell that to Turkey, or better yet... Israel.  Laugh out loud
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SLC1
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RE: Will Russia Join The E.U?

Fri Feb 11, 2005 12:10 pm

would the CIS have anything to say about that?
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alberchico
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RE: Will Russia Join The E.U?

Fri Feb 11, 2005 12:10 pm

Also, only half of russia can joint the EU. The rest of Russia is in Asia.


Yes but Russia is considered a european country not an asian one
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david b.
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RE: Will Russia Join The E.U?

Fri Feb 11, 2005 12:25 pm

Yes but Russia is considered a european country not an asian one


Really, did you ask the people living in the asian half?
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alberchico
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RE: Will Russia Join The E.U?

Fri Feb 11, 2005 12:54 pm

according to the U.N it is a european country .
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whitehatter
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RE: Will Russia Join The E.U?

Fri Feb 11, 2005 2:23 pm

Too big.

Russia's eastern part has very little in common with its western regions. The only practical way in which Russia could join the EU would be for the country to divide as Czechoslovakia did, into two independent nations or even more. And that's a whole new ball game.
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nealcg
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RE: Will Russia Join The E.U?

Fri Feb 11, 2005 4:14 pm

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Phaeton
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RE: Will Russia Join The E.U?

Fri Feb 11, 2005 8:31 pm

I think if Russia could considerably improve their economy they have a chance of joining the EU, maybe in the late 2020s. Putin would also have to stop grabbing more power plus sort out Chechnya i.e. there is a lot to be done.
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BA380
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RE: Will Russia Join The E.U?

Fri Feb 11, 2005 8:37 pm

No. NFW. Not a chance.
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curlyheadboy
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RE: Will Russia Join The E.U?

Fri Feb 11, 2005 8:49 pm

Souds like science fiction said today, i would probably welcome it but i doubt Russia would want this in the first place.
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pelican
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RE: Will Russia Join The E.U?

Fri Feb 11, 2005 9:34 pm

This will never happen!
Not because the Russian economy can't improve enough.
Not because most parts of Russia are Asian.
But because they don't want to be part of something bigger without beeing the one and only leading power. They still dream of their past as an empire and they still think they can become an Euro-Asia emprie again. They can't accept their new role in the world.

pelican
 
solarix
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RE: Will Russia Join The E.U?

Fri Feb 11, 2005 11:54 pm

according to the U.N it is a european country .

Why is that? Most of Russia is in Asia.

I think Russia joining the EU is a bad idea. It's an insult to those that live onthe Asian side.


And talk of Israel joining the EU? WTF??? I guess we should add Lebanon and maybe even South Africa to the list  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Will Russia Join The E.U?

Sat Feb 12, 2005 1:29 am

IMO opinion, Russia is too big, and once they sorted out their own problems well enough to pass the EU entrance criteria, they wouldn´t need us anyway. One idea about the EU is to have us smaller countries work together and speak with one voice, so that we can stand up politically and economically against the big countries, like the US, Russia and China.
Face it, even the biggest EU countries right now are size and populationwise just like smaller provinces of Russia.

Jan
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pelican
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RE: Will Russia Join The E.U?

Sat Feb 12, 2005 1:44 am

Russia's population is about as big as the population of Germany and the UK combined...
 
aloges
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RE: Will Russia Join The E.U?

Sat Feb 12, 2005 1:47 am

If they get in, I'll get out.

I really don't see how Russia could possibly become fit to enter the EU anytime soon. What little democratic change Gorbachev and Yeltsin had achieved, Putin destroyed and keeps destroying. Given that the EU is a fairly democratic entity - albeit based too much on indirect democracy and bureaucracy - I think Putin's new Russian "Empire" entering it would be nothing short of a political disaster.
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Russophile
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RE: Will Russia Join The E.U?

Sat Feb 12, 2005 1:57 am

There is as much chance of Russia joining the EU as there is of Ukraine joining the EU (no matter how much the EU/US stooge in Kiev likes to portray otherwise). But it is for different reasons. And it nothing as presented above.

It has nothing to do with Chechnya. Spain has the Basque terrorists. France has the FNLC terrorists. UK has the IRA terrorists. Yet all of these countries are members of the EU. Terrorism should not be a determining factor.

It is because the Russian people (not the government) will not allow themselves to be dictated to by a non-Russian regime. Meaning that they will not allow a situation where domestic or foreign Russian policy will be determined by bureaucrats in Strasbourg.

Even the most liberal political parties, such as Yabloko, do not even want a Russia in the EU. The most that the Russians are looking for in terms of 'integration' with the EU is closer economic ties (without being officially tied to the EU and having to implement EU policy -- such as their pathetic aviation policy) and a visa-free regime for Russians visiting the EU (an issue which the EU has dragged its feet on for the last several years). Particularly in relation to the visa-free regime, the Russian people see that the EU is nothing but another bureaucracy. They already have their own bureaucracy, but at least it's Russian, and at least they have some control over it.
 
aloges
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RE: Will Russia Join The E.U?

Sat Feb 12, 2005 2:15 am

Russophile, are you really comparing Chechnya to Northern Ireland? I must have missed the last time Belfast got blown to bits.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
Russophile
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RE: Will Russia Join The E.U?

Sat Feb 12, 2005 2:19 am

Yes Aloges, there is NO difference between the underlying factors in both Belfast, Barcelona/Madrid, Corsica and Chechnya. That of course being terrorism and terrorists. The difference being the Russians haven't bent over and allowed those terrorists to **** em in the **** time and time again.

Anyway, back on topic.
 
iakobos
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RE: Will Russia Join The E.U?

Sat Feb 12, 2005 2:19 am

Either you are a humorist of the third-degree Russo, or you have a blurry idea of what kind of individuals are most likely to travel from Russia to the EU.

Sure there are some diplomats, a good lot of "honest" businessmen, a few people with family or relations in the West, and even genuine tourists, but bureaucratic procedures are not meant for these citizens.
I leave you to guess.
 
mika
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RE: Will Russia Join The E.U?

Sat Feb 12, 2005 2:22 am

would the CIS have anything to say about that?


That sounds even more illogical than Russia entering the EU. The CIS countries are not even one part european. Even though i personally would welcome anyone into this union it just goes against any logic.  Smile
 
aloges
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RE: Will Russia Join The E.U?

Sat Feb 12, 2005 2:24 am

Erm, well Russophile, you're entitled to your opinion.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
Alessandro
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RE: Will Russia Join The E.U?

Sat Feb 12, 2005 2:24 am

We shall see, first Romania and Bulgaria. Depends if the Russian population shrinks a lot and oil price. I can see the logic of Russia as EU raw-material
supplier....
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alberchico
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RE: Will Russia Join The E.U?

Sat Feb 12, 2005 2:40 am

And talk of Israel joining the EU? WTF???

As I recall Turkey is considered for E.U. membership so it is not at all science fiction.
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Russophile
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RE: Will Russia Join The E.U?

Sat Feb 12, 2005 3:50 am

Iakobos

Sorry, but it is you who has a blurry idea of what has been proposed, and furthermore you have a blurry idea of the Russian people in general, particularly by assuming that the country is full of potential illegal immigrants. Funny, because most Russians I know wouldn't want to live in Europe anyway and are quite content in the rodina. Hell, some are even living outside of Russia in the EU and US, and want to go back home someday. On the other hand, I know plenty of people in Uzbekistan, Azerbaijan, Ukraine and Armenia who would move out of their country in an instant, given a chance. A lot of them want to move to Russia, whereas some want to go Australia/EU/US. It is the citizens of other countries whom one would need to be worried about, not the average Russian citizen.

http://www.russiaeu.org/qa-visafree.htm

1. Usually the opponents of visa free regime with Russia claim that loosening of border control will bring into the EU new flows of illegal migrants, mainly from neighboring states. Don't you think that this concern is justified?

They obviously have a wrong idea of what Russia wants, and this is, unfortunately, a common situation even among those politicians who deal with Russia on a daily basis. There will be no loosening of border controls, we don't ask to become part of the Schengen zone and all the existing borders will remain in place.

We're talking about Russia to be included into Annex II to the Council regulation No 539/2001 which comprises the list of countries whose nationals are exempt from requirement to possess visas when crossing the external borders of the Union for stays of no more than three months.

And of course all third countries nationals who are not exempt from visa requirements and who travel to EU member states via the Russian territory will have to apply for visa in order to cross the EU border.

---

What is interesting is from Point 3....

At the same time Russia proposed to begin movement towards this objective by mutual softening of visa requirements for certain categories of citizens, such as students and tourists.

This has been mooted for several years now, and there is absolutely no reason why tourists and 'cultural exchanges' couldn't be exempted from the visa regime. Particularly considering the number of tourists Russia sends to Spain, Italy, Greece, Portugal, etc every year. It's a hindrance to furthering these ties, and the EU still drags their feet on it.

It will be many years before Russia would want to enter the EU, or even possibly be ready. The country has gone thru 2 major 'catastrophes' in the last 10-15 years. Firstly, the breakup of the Soviet Union affected their economy in the worst possible way. And secondly, the years of Yeltsin and the robber barons (oligarchs) hasn't done any good either. Will take some years for Putin, and his successors, to change things in a substantial way.

[Edited 2005-02-11 19:56:07]
 
L.1011
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RE: Will Russia Join The E.U?

Sat Feb 12, 2005 4:25 am

according to the U.N it is a european country .

Why is that? Most of Russia is in Asia.


Geographically, yes. But the population density is far, far higher in European Russia than Asian Russia. I would think the majority of the population lives west, not east of the Urals and the government is also seated far west of the Urals. Much of Asian Russia is well...empty.
 
iakobos
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RE: Will Russia Join The E.U?

Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:21 am

Russo,

Nothing to be sorry about.
I did not say a thing about illegal immigration, and I do not think there are potentially many Russians willing to move West, at least so far.

Every country in the "West" has his influx, and it looks very much like each nationality has a speciality.
Polish are found as manual workers, Ukrainians work evening and nights, Romanians and Bulgarians work around the clock, Moldovians try to sell someone else's or their own organs, Serbians are syndicated in racket organisations, Georgians are black traders, Russians are our new and very dangerous mafia.

Of course, it is not all nor even a small majority, but sufficiently significant to give a label in public opinion. It is an unfortunate prejudice but it is also a fact.
If my former (Russian) neighbour was alive he could testify that the two dozen bullets that were going to hole him properly were fired by a fellow national from the same "company".
I take it from a friend who happens to be a cop in a special unit here, that they do not interfere with the Russians, they are too well armed, ruthless and usually they kill only among themselves.

Cyprus and Greece have also seen a huge increase of new nationals whose names end with -ov, -ev, -in. There is a price for everything here.

I am not aiming at starting a war of words, I just think that free entry for some nationalities is not yet around the corner.

 
Klaus
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RE: Will Russia Join The E.U?

Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

I´d say Russia´s chance of accession is only very slightly higher than China´s...  Wink/being sarcastic
 
rootsair
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RE: Will Russia Join The E.U?

Sat Feb 12, 2005 6:04 am

They are at least 10 years behind in almost everything.

THEN HOW THE HELL CAN ROMANIA JOIN THE E.U
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Alessandro
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RE: Will Russia Join The E.U?

Sat Feb 12, 2005 8:30 pm

Russophile, you know this could be the solution for the Kaliningrad "problem"
by joining, also would mean a improvement of living in Karelia, when Finns
move in.
The reason many ethnic Russians in Estonia and Latvia want to leave is because they don´t have full citizenship, nothing to do with EU.
As for the break-up of the Sovietunion being a disaster, it was doomed,
too much money spent on the military and too little on the well being of
the people living in Sovietunion.
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
SLC1
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RE: Will Russia Join The E.U?

Sat Feb 12, 2005 8:35 pm

Mika, I was just wondering if the CIS would have any problem with their major nation going to another union.
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NumberTwelve
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RE: Will Russia Join The E.U?

Sat Feb 12, 2005 8:50 pm

Russia joining the EU? If Russia wants to join the EU - they can't!

Reasons:
torture in Chechnya and in Russia too
death penalty


Don't compare Chechnya with IRA and Basque "terrorists". The Baltic nations are happy to be independent from Russia now - why does Russia want to keep Chechnya? Russia is a bloodsucker and totally brutal when people really want to have their freedom. And Chechnya people who fight for own country are no terrorists. People who are kidnapping childre are, thats right. But people in Chechnya killing Russian military, are fighter for freedom and independence.
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SLC1
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RE: Will Russia Join The E.U?

Sat Feb 12, 2005 8:52 pm

well, for the Death Penalty, Russia is abolitionist in practice according to AI, so couldn't they just outlaw the death penalty to join should they want to, as for torture in Chechnya, I don't know anything about that.
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NumberTwelve
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RE: Will Russia Join The E.U?

Sat Feb 12, 2005 8:54 pm

SLC1, they are torturing.

Only the US military in Iraq, Afghanistan and Guantanamo doesn't torture.
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Alessandro
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RE: Will Russia Join The E.U?

Sat Feb 12, 2005 11:00 pm

Abolishing the death penalty isn´t a big problem, cost in Russian prisons are
low, Chechenya is a bigger problem. But on the other hand 1/3 of Cyprus isn´t in controll of the EU,
so it can be accepted...
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
Russophile
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RE: Will Russia Join The E.U?

Sat Feb 12, 2005 11:52 pm

Russians are our new and very dangerous mafia.

So what you are saying is that 149,998,000 people need to put up with a mundane visa regime because of a couple of thousand bad eggs? HELLO!! Criminals will find their way into any country with a strict visa regime or not. And this the case as it is today. Hell, you even have criminals claiming (and being granted!!) political asylum in the EU after they have milked state enterprises of hundreds of millions of dollars.

Russophile, you know this could be the solution for the Kaliningrad "problem"

It could very well be a solution. But the thing is there was no problem until Lithuania joined the EU, and the bureaucrats in Strasbourg effectively cut off 1 million people from the rest of their country without a single care or concern. People might remember that such actions have started wars in the past, although I doubt that Moscow would take things that far.

The reason many ethnic Russians in Estonia and Latvia want to leave is because they don´t have full citizenship, nothing to do with EU.

Of course it has everything to do with the EU. Are Estonia and Latvia not members of the EU? So much for the so-called rights espoused by those in Strasbourg.

And my point wasn't about Russians in the Baltic states, but rather ethnic nationalities in countries such as Uzbekistan, Armenia, Georgia, Azerbaijan, Ukraine, etc -- basically, the other countries of the CIS.

Mika, I was just wondering if the CIS would have any problem with their major nation going to another union.

The CIS isn't a political unit but rather more of an economic and cultural one. So politically, there is nothing that the constituent republics of the CIS could do. The creation of the Eurasian Economic Community, if it goes ahead as planned, will surely create an 'obstacle' if Russia wanted to join the EU, as they would then surely push for EU membership for Kazakhstan, Tajikistan, Belarus and Kyrgyzstan (and possibly Moldova).

death penalty

When Russia joined the Council of Europe they were required to sign Protocol No. 6 dealing with the death penalty. Russia has an indefinite amnesty on the use of capital punishment, except in cases of treason, piracy and possibly terrorism. And before you go getting arky on this point, you will find that some of the current EU nations still have these exceptions codified into their own laws. Article 2 of that Protocol expressly allows for the use of the death penalty by all members states (not that I agree with the death penalty in the first instance). Sorry, but your argument is moot.

Don't compare Chechnya with IRA and Basque "terrorists".

Try telling that to Russians (including inhabitants of Chechnya) who have been killed in their apartment, on the metro, at a theatre, whilst flying on an aircraft, in public parades, at rock concerts, at bus stations, in stadiums, in their hospital bed, in their offices, etc, and then tell me what response you would get from them. I guarantee you it will be the type of response which Putin gave after the Beslan siege ordeal when he told the US and EU to fuck off in no uncertain terms.

I am not defending all Russian military actions in Chechnya, far from it, because YES, they have a lot to answer for. But remember this one thing: They did not start the war, and it is a war they had no choice but to fight.

But people in Chechnya killing Russian military, are fighter for freedom and independence.

Tell me, have you had your daily hug of a Chechen today?  Pissed

[Edited 2005-02-12 15:55:11]
 
Alessandro
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RE: Will Russia Join The E.U?

Sun Feb 13, 2005 12:08 am

Well, Lithuania and Poland has the right to decide their futures, bad luck for the people in Kaliningrad. Estonia and Latvia consider the majority of the Russian (add other nationalites from former Sovietunion) as illegal immigrants,
just like some other EU states refuse to grant citizenship for Turks and so on.
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yyz717
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RE: Will Russia Join The E.U?

Sun Feb 13, 2005 1:37 am

Russia remains very impoverished and far too undemocratic to join the EU. I doubt this will improve in the next 25 years. Russia simply does not have ANY history of democracy, rule of law and prosperity.

As for the ethnic Russians in Estonia, Latvia & Lithuania, they should be deported back to Russia. They are illegal immigrants and the remnants of the former occupying Soviets.

Recent Russian immigrants to Toronto have created their own crime wave here, complete with a growing Russian mafia.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Alessandro
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RE: Will Russia Join The E.U?

Sun Feb 13, 2005 2:01 am

Yyz717, easy, the destinction in Latvia and Estonia is following, you have to
be or have ancestor that was Estonian or Latvian citizens (some Russians and
other minorities
lived in Estonia and Latvia during independence between the world wars.
Then people who supported independence during the early 1990ies also get
citizenship.
Lithuania choosed to give everyone living in Lithuania citizenship.
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avek00
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RE: Will Russia Join The E.U?

Sun Feb 13, 2005 2:32 am

All of this is really a nonissue, as Russia has absolutely ZERO chance of getting an invite to join the EU anytime soon, and by the time the Russian Federation cleans up its act to the point where membership is an option, the EU will have long since disbanded by then.
Live life to the fullest.
 
NumberTwelve
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RE: Will Russia Join The E.U?

Mon Feb 14, 2005 10:48 pm

Russo: "It could very well be a solution. But the thing is there was no problem until Lithuania joined the EU, and the bureaucrats in Strasbourg effectively ..."

You really want to compare Lithuania and the Baltic states with Russia? They have free elections, no death penalty, no torturing - so don't compare these countries with Russia.

Noone in Europe and the "bad" bureaucrats in Strasbourg and Bruxelles denied membership to Baltic countries but fortunatelly we have high standards of human right in Europe and this means Russia won't get member of the EU within the next years until they solved their own problems and don't terrorise Chechenya.
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Klaus
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RE: Will Russia Join The E.U?

Mon Feb 14, 2005 11:32 pm

Avek00: the EU will have long since disbanded by then.

Don´t hold your breath... every single prediction of that kind has been spectacularly wrong so far...  Big thumbs up

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