ConcordeBoy
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Ward Churchill: What, If Anything, Should Be Done?

Sat Feb 12, 2005 4:54 am

Question's pretty self-explanatory.....



Free speech? ....or traitorous drivel?


Let me be clear on the fact that I think there's absolutely zilch chance that he'll be found guilty of treason, as some (loons) are pushing for. While there may be "witnesses" ready and willing to testify against him, it'd be tough as hell for any lawyer to successfully argue that he's committed an overt act.

That said, I do think he'll eventually be found blatantly incompetent (for his statements to a captive audience, funded by taxpayer money) and his tenure revoked.


...and I'm not alone in thinking thus. However, SHOULD this be the case. Where does 1st ammendment end, if/when others are being affected.

What say you?
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mdsh00
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RE: Ward Churchill: What, If Anything, Should Be Done?

Sat Feb 12, 2005 4:59 am

I don't think much can be done in the way of free-speech. The only thing that could work is to put pressure on CU until they get get rid of him or ask him to resign if he is already tenured.
"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Ward Churchill: What, If Anything, Should Be Done?

Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:07 am

The only thing that could work is to put pressure on CU until they get get rid of him or ask him to resign if he is already tenured.

Already done.

He's not going to resign. CI is in a 30day review of his tenure... if they find him "incompetent" it can be revoked, if not, he remains.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
gigneil
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RE: Ward Churchill: What, If Anything, Should Be Done?

Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:09 am

Again, CU can fire him. An employer can ensure their employees put forth the opinions of the management.

But the government can't find him guilty of treason. He didn't do anything illegal. He's an idiot.

N
 
avek00
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RE: Ward Churchill: What, If Anything, Should Be Done?

Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:11 am

There's nothing that can be done to him in the legal realm - he may be a loon, but any action against him by the government would fail on First Amendment grounds.
Live life to the fullest.
 
dl021
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RE: Ward Churchill: What, If Anything, Should Be Done?

Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:15 am

He is merely an inane spouter of hatred. Thats not enough reason to muzzle him.

Our nation is strong enough to have people like him rise up and say their piece, and I would defend his rights, as I would defend any others'. Do I want public money to pay this ass for spouting his drivel, no. If his employer feels he is bringing them into a bad light, then he should have to deal with that. But we should not legally enjoin him from speaking his "mind".

Even if he is an attention seeking, revisionist America hater who doesn't deserve to enjoy the rights he abuses.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
prosa
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RE: Ward Churchill: What, If Anything, Should Be Done?

Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:21 am

Ward Churchill has been a longtime activist for American Indian rights and has been associated with the radical American Indian Movement. He is an enrolled member of a Cherokee group from Oklahoma and says that he is of mixed white and Indian ancestry. Some research has shown, however, that he is at most one sixth-fourth Indian, and even that is doubtful. The Cherokee group that gave him tribal membership apparently gave out memberships to just about anyone who asked.
Source:
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0%2C1299%2CDRMN_15_3525487%2C00.html
"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
 
FDXmech
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RE: Ward Churchill: What, If Anything, Should Be Done?

Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:24 am

His First Amendment Rights really come into play.

Why?

Because CU is a *state* university.
You're only as good as your last departure.
 
ltbewr
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RE: Ward Churchill: What, If Anything, Should Be Done?

Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:58 am

Unfortntaly, there has been for 40 years too many professors whom have liberal to radical liberal views and not enough conservitives or moderates in most university campuses in the USA and many places in Europe. There is a total lack of the balance in views which modern education should contain. This is nothing new. Back in the 1950's professors with 'communist' views were fired or 'encouraged' to keep extreme, pro-communist views in check.
The best answer to deal with such extremeist professors is to publicize there views, let students have choices whom don't want to take courses with professors with such extreme views not choose them. Those whom take courses with him should challange his views in class openly, as should take place, without grade penalty. If the enrollment of classes of such professors declines, then maybe they or the University/College will have the ability to lay them off as not financially efficient. What may happen at the University where this professor teaches at is that the state legisgature may cut or reduce funding to it to teach them a lesson.
 
saxdiva
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RE: Ward Churchill: What, If Anything, Should Be Done?

Sat Feb 12, 2005 6:27 am

Hmm. First off, Ward Churchill is a moron.

Should tenure rules be circumvented in order to can him? Nope. Most university professors are expected to conduct research and publish their findings. Much of their work--especially in the humanities--is controversial, but controversy doesn't automatically equal wrong. The whole idea of tenure is that it protects unpopular views--sometimes contributing to worthwhile social progress, sometimes not... I think it tends to be cyclic as society as a whole becomes more or less socially conservative.

So what happens to the Ward Churchills? The most egregious academic malcontents I've known about hang themselves--sooner or later--in some way where tenure won't protect them. The rest seem to end up in positions where their ability to cause damage is limited, and eventually move on to villas in Mexico (or wherever), where I suspect they spend their retirement smoking weed and hating the world. I can't guess which route Churchill might take, but he's basically shot himself in the foot by being so over the top. How would anyone take him seriously?

-Leanne
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Ward Churchill: What, If Anything, Should Be Done?

Sat Feb 12, 2005 6:33 am

Should tenure rules be circumvented in order to can him? Nope.

Well, there wouldn't have to be in this case.

Many universities employ (quite broad) clauses for the revocation of tenure, CU being among them.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Ward Churchill: What, If Anything, Should Be Done?

Sat Feb 12, 2005 6:57 am

Many things come to mind, all borne out of emotion rather than logic.

Let Todd Beamer's wife have a shot at him . . .

Let him loose in the courtyard of the Pentagon - it's 15 acres, plenty of room for him to run about . . .

However . . .

This is America, he has the right to spout off - just like RSmith in the non-av forum.

The PCs freaks will all spout about Free Speech - Free Speech. Well, it is my 1st Amendment right to proclaim the guy a nut case, a complete and utter fruit loop.

It is CUs responsibility, nee, DUTY to remove him from the staff. Anyone with such bizarre thoughts going through their minds should not be allowed to teach (using the word very lightly in his case) our young men and women anything, period!



FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
mdsh00
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RE: Ward Churchill: What, If Anything, Should Be Done?

Sat Feb 12, 2005 7:00 am

There is a total lack of the balance in views which modern education should contain. This is nothing new. Back in the 1950's professors with 'communist' views were fired or 'encouraged' to keep extreme, pro-communist views in check.

I agree some professors are on their high horses about their political views but to say there needs to be some "equalization" with conservative professors is like making a case for Affirmative Action. Professors are chosen because of their value to the university in getting research grants, not their political views. It just happens that many of them (more so in humanities like saxdiva said...science professors seem to not be as vocal) are liberal.
"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
 
SlamClick
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RE: Ward Churchill: What, If Anything, Should Be Done?

Sat Feb 12, 2005 7:44 am

In the private sector he would be fired and it would survive legal challenge.
Because he is a public employee he will probably not be fired.

I am more outraged at this difference than by his idiotic rant.

And when did the Government get into the business of protecting public employees from their own stupidity?

Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Ward Churchill: What, If Anything, Should Be Done?

Sat Feb 12, 2005 8:17 am

I thought it was interesting that he said something to the effect of "I do not work for Bill Owens or the State of Colorado" when in fact, he most certainly does since his pay comes from a combination of taxpayer money and endowment.

I am no fan of "hate speech" legislation but his speech certainly qualifies. You know full well that if, for example, that black Washington DC journalist came to speak how "American blacks should be greatful that they are not in Africa anymore", Churchill's supporters would be screaming "hate speech" and demanding his head.

Frankly I think it's impossible to fire him now without facing the freedom of speech issue, and it would be nearly impossible to fire him under any other guise. I think you either get him for hate speech or keep demoting him until he's assistant of janitorial studies and fire him when the hubub dies down. I just can't believe that this David Koresh wannabe was hired in the first place...it's not like this is the first time he's said/written something outrageous.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
MD-90
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RE: Ward Churchill: What, If Anything, Should Be Done?

Sat Feb 12, 2005 8:18 am

He needs a haircut. He looks like an ugly woman.

 
JetJock22
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RE: Ward Churchill: What, If Anything, Should Be Done?

Sat Feb 12, 2005 8:24 am

It's sad that so many impressionable students find his "standing up" a good thing. If anything, they should be outraged that they are paying gobbs and gobbs of money and getting shit like this instead of a decent professor teaching them what they signed up to learn. I know that university is about "learning to think for yourself" but that doesn't cut it in the world today. It's about what you know, who you know, and how hard you work, not about pondering the meaning of life.
 
SLC1
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RE: Ward Churchill: What, If Anything, Should Be Done?

Sat Feb 12, 2005 9:00 am

I think the guy made some incredibly stupid comments, he may have some valid argument buried under the crap, but saying that the victims weren't innocent is just plain bullshit, and why he would stand up is just to incite anger. I don't think this really falls under free speech, he can say whatever the hell he wants, but he doesn't necessarily get to keep his job. However, this is a University Campus, which brings up an interesting issue. I think that a University should be a place where all ideas can be put forth in a public forum, much like Michael Moore's appearance at UVSC, so I don't think he should be fired (even if he were tenured) for his comments. He should also be permitted to defend his views. I think the only valid way to fire him would be to say that the manner in which he defended his statements was not resepectable, or for inciting protest. I would feel great with CU saying that they do not agree with his comments, but past that I don't know how much more can be done.
We're gonna do what we like to call a "jetBlue how do you do", which is slang for dumping a bunch of fuel in the ocean
 
airplay
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RE: Ward Churchill: What, If Anything, Should Be Done?

Sat Feb 12, 2005 9:40 am

If he deserves to get fired or censured, then why not Rush Limbaugh, or Howard Stern, or George Bush, or Bill O'Reilly or any number of the nuts with crazy opinions?

I think this entire issue is being blown out of proportion. People shouldn't be discouraged from speaking their minds.
 
SLC1
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RE: Ward Churchill: What, If Anything, Should Be Done?

Sat Feb 12, 2005 10:02 am

I don't think he should be censured, because that would be repressing ideas in a University Environment, I think CU could just say they don't agree with his opinions and don't believe them to be correct, like infomercials where they say "this is not necessarily the opinion... blah blah." I still think the guy is a dick.
We're gonna do what we like to call a "jetBlue how do you do", which is slang for dumping a bunch of fuel in the ocean
 
SlamClick
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RE: Ward Churchill: What, If Anything, Should Be Done?

Sat Feb 12, 2005 10:38 am

"repressing ideas" ?

Because a person happened to be at a certain address on a certain date makes them a Nazi. (FedEx and UPS delivery people, police and fire, secretaries etc. etc.) If that is what passes for "ideas" at your school may I suggest you might shop around a bit for next semester.

Perhaps CU should lose their acreditation. Clearly they have no idea what constitutes rational thought. Clearly they are a terrible judge of one's credentials to stand before students and pontificate.

Apparently they hand out tenure like party favors, like cocaine.

edit: Just so there is no misunderstanding, so that I am not deemed a Nazi, let me make it clear: I do not question his right to say that. I am outraged that a person who would wish to say that gets a public paycheck. As a taxpayer I think I can demand better.

For certain it is time to start drug testing ALL public employees.


[Edited 2005-02-12 02:39:34]

[Edited 2005-02-12 02:41:45]
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Ward Churchill: What, If Anything, Should Be Done?

Sat Feb 12, 2005 10:58 am

"If he deserves to get fired or censured, then why not Rush Limbaugh, or Howard Stern, or George Bush, or Bill O'Reilly or any number of the nuts with crazy opinions?"

Crazy opinions such as....
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
SLC1
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RE: Ward Churchill: What, If Anything, Should Be Done?

Sat Feb 12, 2005 11:04 am

okay, here's what I'm trying to say... he shouldn't be fired for his dumb-ass views, that isn't what a University is all about, if they want to fire/censure him for how he went about defending his views, or inciting his students that's fine with me.
We're gonna do what we like to call a "jetBlue how do you do", which is slang for dumping a bunch of fuel in the ocean
 
airplay
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RE: Ward Churchill: What, If Anything, Should Be Done?

Sun Feb 13, 2005 1:00 am

This isn't much different than the movement to ban the teaching of evolution in school.

The free exchange of ideas should be encouraged. Considering the fact that college students are generally possess the sophistication to make up their own mind, there should be no attempt to stifle a professor's opinions.

Is it acceptable and correct to teach students that the American invasion of Iraq was justified? How about Vietnam? Korea? Is it OK to explain that dropping nukes on Japan ended WWII? Or is it possible that various points of view should be presented and the students are left to form their own opinion?

I've heard many first party accounts of people who were oppressed in their country of birth. I've heard stories of how the government actively supressed any ideas it deemed contrary to government policy or a risk to their rule.

Just how oppressive do you want your own country to be? Do you want people to be in fear of expressing their opinion? Evolution, political opinions.....just keep it up. You'll be living in a police state in no time.
 
SlamClick
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RE: Ward Churchill: What, If Anything, Should Be Done?

Sun Feb 13, 2005 1:27 am

What does it say about you Airplay if you think that calling a passenger on one of the four ill-fated 9/11 flights, or a delivery person in the WTC on that morning a "Nazi" or an "Eichmann" is an "idea?"

* * *


"Is it OK to explain that dropping nukes on Japan ended WWII? "

Well, given that the Japanese military had been beaten back all the way from Burma and New Guinea, island to island until they were pretty well confined to their home islands and never once had a single military unit surrendered, and they were actively engaged in attacking our fleet on Hiroshima morning and Nagasaki morning but less than a week later, the entire nation surrenders.

What sort of cosmic coincidence do you believe in?

But you do bring up a good point. I'd hate to have Ward Churchill begin to feel oppressed - like, say, a conservative in Canada.


Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
FDXmech
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RE: Ward Churchill: What, If Anything, Should Be Done?

Sun Feb 13, 2005 3:31 am

>>>If he deserves to get fired or censured, then why not Rush Limbaugh, or Howard Stern, or George Bush, or Bill O'Reilly or any number of the nuts with crazy opinions?<<<

Those guys *can* get fired. This piece of vomit can't because he's a government employee who's first amendment rights would be officially violated per FOX news legal experts.

You're only as good as your last departure.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Ward Churchill: What, If Anything, Should Be Done?

Sun Feb 13, 2005 5:48 am

If he deserves to get fired or censured, then why not Rush Limbaugh, or Howard Stern, or George Bush, or Bill O'Reilly or any number of the nuts with crazy opinions?


Sometimes I wonder if you have any filtration whatsoever between whatever's where your brain should've been and the drivel that you end up expressing....

...that aside; along with what's already been mentioned in regard to this statement-- keep in mind that much of Churchill's audience is captive, whereas all of Stern/Limbaugh/O'Reilly/etc's are voluntary.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
USAFHummer
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RE: Ward Churchill: What, If Anything, Should Be Done?

Sun Feb 13, 2005 7:54 am

I've been looking through past records of Churchill's classes...here at CU,at the end of every course, we fill out something called an "FCQ" which stands for "Faculty/Course Questionnaire" and is basically an anonymous evaluation of the professor/instructor and the class for the students to fill out...these records are available to CU students online, so I poked around a bit...while it doesnt appear that he's teaching any courses this semester, he's consistently gotten an "A" rating from his students in previous courses going back as far as 1999, and as for diversity issues, he's consistently gotten an "A+" (yes, thats a question on the FCQ, they ask you to rate how the professor handled such things)...just some food for thought...

Greg
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SlamClick
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RE: Ward Churchill: What, If Anything, Should Be Done?

Sun Feb 13, 2005 8:43 am

So what are you saying USAFHummer?

That society should take its cues on right and wrong from a bunch of college students?

Did you know that recent research shows that the part of the brain that processes cause and effect type of issues does not even develop until about age 25? I find tons of empirical evidence that support that claim. In fact it is a valid argument for raising the voting age to 25 but that is a separate issue.

I'm not buying it. Guy says inflamatory things about their parents' heroes and these kids lap it up. When my kids were about 13 the mayor visited their classroom. The teacher opened some discussion with him and the students and then left the room. The mayor said: "Well, now that the fat bitch has left, what do you really want to talk about?"

Did it make him popular with the students?
Yes. Except the fat ones.
Was it the right thing for the mayor to say?

Popularity is cheaply won, and not really worth much.


Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
USAFHummer
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RE: Ward Churchill: What, If Anything, Should Be Done?

Sun Feb 13, 2005 8:45 am

I was merely posting it as an FYI...nothing more, nothing less, just food for thought...

Greg
Chief A.net college football stadium self-pic guru
 
SlamClick
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RE: Ward Churchill: What, If Anything, Should Be Done?

Sun Feb 13, 2005 8:54 am

me too

filler

filler
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
nosedive
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RE: Ward Churchill: What, If Anything, Should Be Done?

Sun Feb 13, 2005 9:31 am

What does it say about you Airplay if you think that calling a passenger on one of the four ill-fated 9/11 flights, or a delivery person in the WTC on that morning a "Nazi" or an "Eichmann" is an "idea?"


1st off, Churchill has stated that he did mean for his "Eichmann" comment to extend to delivery people, the firemen,police force, janitors, and one could argue some of the people on the four flights that fateful day(1). And I do not see how Airplay's views on freedom of speech make him less of a person, as you slamclick, seem to be implying. Look, what Churchill said about the victims on 9/11 is repulsive. I won't deny it. But Churchill is entitled to both academic freedom and the 1st Amendment. My concern is if the Regents drop the ball on this, my degree will go down the shitter well before I graduate! I support Churchill's right to the first amendment, but I do doubt his judgement. Could he have written his opinions on September 11th more tactfully? Yes.

As for this whole impressionable student bullshit, the bright students will form an opinion, whether it be pro or anti-Churchill, on their own free will. We were, and many (regardless of age) still are, impressionable; yet so long as conflicting ideas are allowed to persist, and we are allowed to support or deny any idea, then sooner or later people will find their ideas and values. Here at CU-Denver, the campus with no sports teams, the idea of Ward Churchill is being discussed probably as much as anywhere else concerned about free speech and academic freedom. Yet many people, both for and against Churchill, on campus must test their ideas about Churchill against others in a constructive manner or get an academic beating. This is the market place of ideas that university is supposed to be about!

Yet do I fear this marketplace going sour? Yes, again, I hope the Regents and those involved in the investigation use proper judgement so that the integrity of the CU-system, you can decide how much integrity we have, is not harmed. I would hate if academic freedom becomes suppressed in the eyes of professors and faculty, as many may leave the university. Fuck, after I found how much an untenured professor makes here at CU-D, I'm surprised that many even want to come here in the first place! And it's not the Regents, students and professors need to be able to conduct themselves in a manner that will not disrupt this investigative process, as I don't want anything more going wrong with my university. And it pisses me off when people who defend free speech try to force their views upon me. Free speech isn't about force people, it's about listening and making conversation! If you don't buy that definition, fine with me.

So what will the Regents and the investigation find on Ward Churchill? It probably will be a lapse in academic integrity, as it probably will be the easiest reason for dismissal to prove. (2)

(1) Professor won't back down on 9/11 controversy MSNBC
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6937239/

(2)Colorado Professor Faces Claims of Academic Fraud LA Times
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-churchill12feb12,1,5853721.story?coll=la-headlines-nation&ctrack=1&cset=true


Edit: Did you know that recent research shows that the part of the brain that processes cause and effect type of issues does not even develop until about age 25? I find tons of empirical evidence that support that claim.

Look slamclick, if you want to give us "food for thought" then show us this evidence... Also, all Greg is showing us is that the FCQ's favor Churchill; take a look for yourself: http://www.colorado.edu/pba/fcq/by_inst/c.html

Course # Term Instructor #ENR #RET CRSE INST FAIR ACES WORK DIVS ISSU TITL

AIST-2015-001 Fal04 CHURCHILL, WARD 72 67 A A A B+ 5.4 A+ A+ TOPICAL ISS/NATIVE N.A.
AIST-2015-001 Sum04 CHURCHILL, WARD 25 25 A- A A A- 5.0 A+ A+ TOPICAL ISS/NATIVE N.A.
AIST-2015-100 Sum04 CHURCHILL, WARD 18 15 A A A A 5.3 A A+ TOPICAL ISS/NATIVE N.A.
AIST-2201-002 Spr04 CHURCHILL, WARD 106 93 B+ A- A- B 4.7 A A AMERICAN INDIANS IN FILM
AIST-3400-001 Spr04 CHURCHILL, WARD 104 87 A A- A B+ 4.7 A A+ TPC-FBI ON PINE RIDGE
AIST-2015-001 Fal03 CHURCHILL, WARD 75 71 A- A A A- 5.2 A+ A+ TOPICAL ISS/NATIVE N. A.
AIST-2015-100 Sum03 CHURCHILL, WARD 25 24 A- A A+ A- 5.3 A A TOPICAL ISS/NATIVE N. A.
AIST-2015-001 Spr03 CHURCHILL, WARD 73 67 B+ A- B+ B 5.2 A A TOPICAL ISS/NATIVE N. A.
AIST-3400-001 Spr03 CHURCHILL, WARD 102 90 A A A A 4.8 A+ A+ TPC-FBI ON PINE RIDGE
AIST-2015-001 Fal02 CHURCHILL, WARD 90 67 A A A B+ 5.3 A+ A+ TOPICAL ISS/NATIVE N. A.
AIST-2015-100 Sum02 CHURCHILL, WARD 24 23 A A A A 5.3 A A+ TOPICAL ISS/NATIVE N. A.
AIST-2015-001 Spr02 CHURCHILL, WARD 105 98 A- A B B+ 5.2 A+ A TOPICAL ISS/NATIVE N. A.
AIST-3400-001 Spr02 CHURCHILL, WARD 91 86 B+ A B+ B 5.0 A+ A+ TPC-FBI ON PINE RIDGE
ETHN-3100-800 Fal04 CHURCHILL, WARD 14 13 A+ A A+ A- 5.1 A A SELECTED TPCS/ETHNIC STU
ETHN-4510-802 Fal04 CHURCHILL, WARD 19 10 B B A+ B- 5.0
ETHN-3100-002 Fal03 CHURCHILL, WARD 21 20 A+ A+ A+ A 5.0 A+ A+ TPC-AMERICAN HOLOCAUST
ETHN-3100-002 Fal02 CHURCHILL, WARD ** 34 32 B+ A B+ A 5.1 A+ A+ TPC-SCREENING RACE

[Edited 2005-02-13 01:39:55]
 
Russophile
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RE: Ward Churchill: What, If Anything, Should Be Done?

Sun Feb 13, 2005 10:42 am

I guess some people take issue to his comment

Payback, as they say, can be a real motherfucker (ask the Germans).

Because reading what he said, which I doubt many here have, his entire essay basically comes back to this point of payback being a motherfucker. You create a war in South East Asia which kills over 2.5 million people, you are going to get payback. You invade and otherthrow governments in Grenada and Panama, you are going to get payback. And most importantly, you are willing to sacrifice the lives of 500,000 Iraqi children to further your political aims, then you are going to get payback. And that payback was a motherfucker, as the American people learned on 11/09/2001. You can not go around the world doing as you please, and then claim that you are innocent when you get a taste of your own medicine.

Most importantly for me, is that what Ward Churchill has said, it will happen again, particularly with the line that the neocon hawks in Washington DC have pursued since 2000, and still there will be some people who think that the US is innocent and hasn't done anything to have deserved that payback. These people are the ones who are calling for this guy to censured, sacked, charged with treason/sedition (O'Reilly you are a fricking moron!!), etc.
 
N317AS
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RE: Ward Churchill: What, If Anything, Should Be Done?

Sun Feb 13, 2005 10:52 am

Leave him at CU. If he leaves there he could make a bee line for Seattle. God knows some of us don't want him here.
Some people are like Slinkies. They bring a smile to your face when you push them down a flight of stairs.
 
airplay
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RE: Ward Churchill: What, If Anything, Should Be Done?

Sun Feb 13, 2005 11:42 am

What does it say about you Airplay if you think that calling a passenger on one of the four ill-fated 9/11 flights, or a delivery person in the WTC on that morning a "Nazi" or an "Eichmann" is an "idea?"

My use of the word "idea" is quite appropriate. The dictionary offers the following definition(s):

1. Something, such as a thought or conception, that potentially or actually exists in the mind as a product of mental activity.
2. An opinion, conviction, or principle: has some strange political ideas.

3. A plan, scheme, or method.

4.The gist of a specific situation; significance: The idea is to finish the project under budget.

5. A notion; a fancy.

6. Music: A theme or motif.
Philosophy:

In the philosophy of Plato, an archetype of which a corresponding being in phenomenal reality is an imperfect replica.
In the philosophy of Kant, a concept of reason that is transcendent but nonempirical.
In the philosophy of Hegel, absolute truth; the complete and ultimate product of reason.

7. Obsolete: A mental image of something remembered.


Take some time, review the material presented. No apology required.

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jake056
Posts: 283
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RE: Ward Churchill: What, If Anything, Should Be Done?

Sun Feb 13, 2005 3:12 pm

The guy is history. His "academic" career is over. Don't waste typing or breath over him.

CU is going to boot him and they should. Now they are looking at the rest of his work, under a microscope, so to speak. Any unsourced or unattributed quotes, BAM!!!!, he is history.

This is not a free speach issue. He can say whatever he wants, and more power to him. But the taxpayers can equally say, "My taxes are NOT going to pay his salary!"

 
airplay
Posts: 3369
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RE: Ward Churchill: What, If Anything, Should Be Done?

Sun Feb 13, 2005 10:13 pm

This is not a free speach issue. He can say whatever he wants, and more power to him. But the taxpayers can equally say, "My taxes are NOT going to pay his salary!"

And your point is that professors should think twice now before speaking in fear that someone, somewhere will disagree with your opinion and have you fired? Is this the message you want to send to people?

One thing I want to make perfectly clear is, I don't agree with Mr. Churchill's assessment of 9/11, but his right to say it should be defended at all costs, no matter the context or circumstances.

It is still legal to speak your mind...even if all you say is idiotic. Just ask Ann Coulter.
 
NIKV69
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RE: Ward Churchill: What, If Anything, Should Be Done?

Mon Feb 14, 2005 6:44 am

A lot of people are not understanding what is happening here. He is fully within his rights to say the things he is saying. What is funny is that he is making himself look like a total asshole. What is worse he is making not only the University but the state of Colorado look bad. Whether directly or indirectly. I was lucky enough to catch a replay of his entire speech last Tuesday night at the school and I have to tell you he is a complete idiot. It was funny when a student who didn't share his view about his statement about the food service workers and floor sweepers and firefighters not deserving what happened on 9/11 but the rest of the people did Churchill got all defensive and said something that made no sense. He has committed no treason and really shouldn't be fired. I feel bad for CU that has to have a professor like this. What I got from his speech is that he has an axe to grind with people that have worked hard and made a good living because he feels the Indians in this country are impoverished and all the money the Government uses for Iraq and other foreign countries should be given to them. Well that is fine but to say that people that worked for the big financial companies in the WTC deserved to die is a little ridiculous and he owes a lot of families an apology which we know he will never do since he has proclaimed he will not give an inch. This person harbors a lot of hate for the US and people with means. He should grow up.

[Edited 2005-02-13 22:46:12]
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airxliban
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RE: Ward Churchill: What, If Anything, Should Be Done?

Mon Feb 14, 2005 6:54 am

Isn't free speech the whole point of the USA anyway?

Nothing should be done. It should be clear that his opinions do not necessarily reflect the opinions of CU and as such he is not misrepresenting the school or his department.

There are people with much more outrageous opinions than Ward Churchill, they just don't come out and talk about it.

Now I wonder how this is going to affect CU admissions...
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DC10GUY
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RE: Ward Churchill: What, If Anything, Should Be Done?

Mon Feb 14, 2005 8:12 am

The dude is a bit of a radical. But there is truth in a lot of what he says. That's why he comes off as a radical. The innocent that die in one of our many "attacks" around the world are categorized by the pentagon as "collateral damage" But when our innocent die its "terrorism". Bottom line ... The poor people of the world don't have much of a say in things. Especially when they are caught in the middle of war.
Next time try the old "dirty Sanchez" She'll love it !!!
 
NIKV69
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RE: Ward Churchill: What, If Anything, Should Be Done?

Mon Feb 14, 2005 8:36 am

His comparison about innocent dying when we attack someone is completely ridiculous. This isn't a money thing. He is trying to make this a money thing because of this plight he is inventing about his so called Indian family. First of all he may not even be a real Native American and second when we go after terrorists and innoncent people get killed this is not even close to what happened on 9/11. People like Churchill want you to believe this but don't buy into that crap. This is pure terrorism from people in the Middle East that don't want anyone to be able to think for themselves just like Saddam wanted. How many innocent people did he kill? How many did his sons kill? What about them? It didn't matter how much money they had. This guy Churchill is a complete idiot. If his local tribe needs money then they should build a casino just like reservations out here have since they enjoy no interference from the government. Instead of making good hard working people look bad because they work on Wall St.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
mham001
Posts: 4237
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:52 am

RE: Ward Churchill: What, If Anything, Should Be Done?

Mon Feb 14, 2005 8:51 am

His entire career is based on the claim that he is of Indian heritage. Even his early books claim such and he bases his opinions on that heritage.
Fact is-he's not an indian.
His current position is Director of Indian Affairs or some such thing. If his resume claims he is an Indian, he should be fired. Immediately. No free speech issue to contend with.
 
DC10GUY
Posts: 2590
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RE: Ward Churchill: What, If Anything, Should Be Done?

Mon Feb 14, 2005 10:53 am

"because of this plight he is inventing about his so called Indian family." Spoken like a true white man ... The Indians have no one to blame but themselves, Right ? And them Iraqis really don't mined their kids being bombed by American war planes, Right ? Oil has nothing to due with us invading Iraq Right ? ...............WRONG. Thank You Mr. Churchill for pointing out these things we rather not pay any attention to.
Next time try the old "dirty Sanchez" She'll love it !!!
 
NIKV69
Posts: 10890
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RE: Ward Churchill: What, If Anything, Should Be Done?

Mon Feb 14, 2005 11:04 am

Oh brother, another "we went into Iraq so we can get their oil" Well where is it? That is Democratic propaganda, and you have bought right into it. We didn't go there to steal their oil, have we taken any? We are still paying the highest heating oil and gas we have for the last 4 years, we didn't invade Iraq to steal oil. Enough of that stupidity. Democrats are so funny, they routinely have gotten their butts kicked so now they have resorted to throwing out propaganda bombs and try to scare people into voting for them. Thank God it didn't work in 2004 and it won't in 2008 either. Oh yea I forgot we have caught Bin Laden but we are going to wait till right before the election to break it to the press, that was another funny Democratic ideal. You are so very sad. You lost the 2004 election for one reason. You guys are big on taxes and weak on defense and are not trustworthy. Thank God the USA didn't lose sight on that fact last November. Keep listening to Churchill, you will go far with him.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: Ward Churchill: What, If Anything, Should Be Done?

Mon Feb 14, 2005 11:24 am

Where does 1st ammendment end, if/when others are being affected.

When in doubt, err on the side of the First Amendment. If you err on the other side, then eventually, you will strip away the very fabric of that wonderful Amendment, and all our freedoms vanish without it.

One of the great things people in a free society have to accept, our own personal opinions notwithstanding, is opinions that don't jive with our-especially those like from this nut, and from people like the KKK. Trying to silence these groups-as far as WHAT THEY SAY, is just too dangerous for the welfare of all of us. Of course, if they commit acts of violence, that's another story, but the marketplace of ideas should be full of these lunatic fringes, because it's the best way to discredit them in the long run.

Let him say what he thinks. Doesn't mean CU can't get rid of him, but he should be perfectly safe in his own person, espousing whatever he wants.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Ward Churchill: What, If Anything, Should Be Done?

Mon Feb 14, 2005 11:31 am

Falcon: Let him say what he thinks. Doesn't mean CU can't get rid of him, but he should be perfectly safe in his own person, espousing whatever he wants.

I agree. Let him babble on. But do so while unemployed at CU where is not sucking off the public tax $$. Of course, it won't matter now - he's gonna write another book or two, make a few million and retire anyway.

The guy is a nut case.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
NIKV69
Posts: 10890
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RE: Ward Churchill: What, If Anything, Should Be Done?

Mon Feb 14, 2005 11:34 am

Even though I think this person is a complete idiot I do not believe he should be fired. Even it becomes fact he lied about his Indian heritage which just makes him look more of an idiot that he already is. He has every right to say what he wants, as misguided as it is. If all those students who stood and cheered every time he said something completly idiotic want to follow him go right ahead. It's their right.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
GuitrThree
Posts: 1940
Joined: Fri Oct 29, 2004 12:54 pm

RE: Ward Churchill: What, If Anything, Should Be Done?

Mon Feb 14, 2005 3:06 pm

Don't fire him "Even it becomes fact he lied about his Indian heritage which just makes him look more of an idiot that he already is.

NO!! NO!! NO!!

Listen, even if dude is a complete waste of human DNA, the idiot lied on his application, and that is grounds for dismissal. Again, I find it unbelievable that anyone would let something like this slide... what happens when the "unknown" professor lies about his educational level, or if he's been arrested for child porn, etc. It gives the next lying professor ammunition in court to win his/her battle. You can't just let this slide because you believe it makes him look bad..

Anyway, yes, fired, not only for his lying but for what he said. It was said a few posts up, post 44 (Falcon) that it is ok to say what you want as long as violence didn't occur.
Well, you might not call it violence, but I'm sure thinking those families that lost people in (1) The Towers, (2) The Pentagon, and (3) The Jets, all are hurt not only by what this man said but by the idiots defending him.

Read this: Violence doesn't have to come by way of a tangible weapon.

In this case it was from one lying zero IQ idiot. On top of that, anyone trying to justify this as an on-campus "discussion of ideas," is well, an idiot too. This was pure hate speech. Pure and simple hate speech not only about America, but America's citizens, and I find it no different than white people degrading any other race or the reversal.

The problem with what he said is that these people deserved to die. They were military targets... this guy is beyond the worst of the worst, and you liberals find it easy to defend him because of Tenure? HOW? HOW? HOW? Is your hate for the Right and George Bush so bad that you think that this flaming hate throwing whacko has a right to teach at a tax payer funded school? Is it? I thought the Condi thing was bad... but this.. wow.. this takes the cake..




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DC10GUY
Posts: 2590
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2000 5:52 am

RE: Ward Churchill: What, If Anything, Should Be Done?

Mon Feb 14, 2005 3:26 pm

I find it interesting that if a person dare speak up against the Republican machine, The first thing that is done is a complete back ground check, than a spin campaign to discredit that person. All to make people not listen to what's being said. Sounds like a Nazi tactic to me.
Next time try the old "dirty Sanchez" She'll love it !!!
 
GuitrThree
Posts: 1940
Joined: Fri Oct 29, 2004 12:54 pm

RE: Ward Churchill: What, If Anything, Should Be Done?

Mon Feb 14, 2005 3:41 pm

DC10GUY,
"The first thing that is done is a complete back ground check, than a spin campaign to discredit that person. All to make people not listen to what's being said."

Oh really, here is a quote, word for word, nothing "spun," as you said, of what Churchill said in his essay.

"The most that can honestly be said of those involved on September 11 is that they finally responded in kind to some of what this country has dispensed to their people as a matter of course. That they waited so long to do so is, notwithstanding the 1993 action at the WTC, more than anything a testament to their patience and restraint.

They did not license themselves to "target innocent civilians."

There is simply no argument to be made that the Pentagon personnel killed on September 11 fill that bill. The building and those inside comprised military targets, pure and simple. As to those in the World Trade Center . . . Well, really. Let's get a grip here, shall we? True enough, they were civilians of a sort. But innocent? Gimme a break. They formed a technocratic corps at the very heart of America's global financial empire – the "mighty engine of profit" to which the military dimension of U.S. policy has always been enslaved – and they did so both willingly and knowingly."

-Ward Churchill


Ok DC10GUY,
Talk about not listening to what was said??? Please, if he wasn't saying that these "not so innocent people" killed didn't deserve to die, tell me then what exactly he meant by the above statements. Please.
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