aerlingus330
Posts: 812
Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2004 2:21 am

Switzerland- Why No E.U?

Thu Feb 24, 2005 5:17 am

Hi, Do you think that Switzerland should join the E.U?

Any Swiss people here that have a view on the point is more than welcome to put it forward.
*I am led to believe that the French-Swiss are for joining the E.U and the German-Swiss are not.

Is one of the main reasons for them not joining the E.U, because they are afraid of loosing their national identity to the European Union?

*Correct me if I am wrong.

Thank-You
aerlingus330
Aer Lingus Airbus A330-300
 
RJ100
Posts: 3895
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2000 1:37 am

RE: Switzerland- Why No E.U?

Thu Feb 24, 2005 5:25 am

Hey there

I would say it is 50-50 in Switzerland (pro and contra).

I am against it (at this point) simply for the reason because Switzerland would become one of the largest net payer but on the other hand has no decision power (because of the small population).

Also, the Swiss political system is based on federalism, every region and every person in this region has a very direct decision power. Once in the EU this will be past because the EU is more centralized.

You are right in saying that the French speaking cantons together with the two Basel cantons are more pro EU while the most part of German speaking Switzerland (apart from Basel) is against the EU.

Regards,
RJ100

[Edited 2005-02-23 21:26:19]
none
 
Kieron747
Posts: 2461
Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2005 7:17 am

RE: Switzerland- Why No E.U?

Thu Feb 24, 2005 5:28 am

I once knew this guy from Geneva, he was an accountant.

His personal opinion was simple...

Money and National Identity

...were the reasons (in that specific order!

I think there can be similarities drawn with the UK
Airliners.Net - The Jam Rag Of The Web.
 
backfire
Posts: 3467
Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2006 8:01 am

RE: Switzerland- Why No E.U?

Thu Feb 24, 2005 5:32 am

Switzerland voted in 1992 not to join the EEA. It was considered a surprise result, and the vote was very close.
 
RJ100
Posts: 3895
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2000 1:37 am

RE: Switzerland- Why No E.U?

Thu Feb 24, 2005 5:35 am

Yeah it was 51% against joining versus 49% joining or something like that. Only a few thousand votes made the difference.
none
 
aloges
Posts: 14842
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:38 am

RE: Switzerland- Why No E.U?

Thu Feb 24, 2005 5:48 am

Well, "net payer no. 1" says hi!  Laugh out loud I'd like it if Switzerland decided to join the EU since it would probably mean the end of certain bank accounts and so on, if you catch my drift.

Maybe the Swiss could also make some of their democratic traditions more attractive for the rest of the bunch, such as the plebiscites "our" politicians seem to fear so much.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
ltbewr
Posts: 12424
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

RE: Switzerland- Why No E.U?

Thu Feb 24, 2005 5:49 am

There are other reasons that come to my mind the discourage them from becoming part of the EU.
Probably they would have to dismantle their secretative banking rules and lose a lot of very profitable banking business, have to report bank deposits to other countries of their citizens avoiding taxes by banking in Switzerland.
They would have to remove their very strict immigration and citizenship rules. They would also have to open up to guest workers as is common in the EU with the related additional social programs costs.
As noted above, they would probably as a relatively rich country, have to give far more then they get back in EU taxes.
They would have to conform to EU imposed government financing, tax and spending regulations.
They would have to conform to EU pollution and related laws.
They would lose their 'neutrality' and lose the headquarters of many international organizations.
Allow more non-swiss products, espceially food products into their country, hurting local farmers.
Easier access as no border checkpoints, thus allowing more undesirable people into the country.
 
RJ100
Posts: 3895
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2000 1:37 am

RE: Switzerland- Why No E.U?

Thu Feb 24, 2005 5:56 am

That thing with the banks is more or less a myth. No doubt, illegal stuff happens. But not more than somewhere else.
none
 
RJ100
Posts: 3895
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2000 1:37 am

RE: Switzerland- Why No E.U?

Thu Feb 24, 2005 6:03 am

Quoting LTBEWR (reply 6):
Probably they would have to dismantle their secretative banking rules and lose a lot of very profitable banking business, have to report bank deposits to other countries of their citizens avoiding taxes by banking in Switzerland.


Do you know that the largest Swiss banks employ more people in the US than everywhere else?

Quoting LTBEWR (reply 6):
They would have to remove their very strict immigration and citizenship rules. They would also have to open up to guest workers as is common in the EU with the related additional social programs costs.


We are open for guest workers. In the company I work I am the only Swiss on my floor. Where I live 30% of the people are from foreign countries.


Quoting LTBEWR (reply 6):
They would have to conform to EU pollution and related laws.


Switzerland has some of the strictest laws concerning pollution. The EU could learn a lot from us. We have stricter laws concerning a lot of things such as animal treatment etc. etc. And no offense but someone from the US is simply not allowed to bash Switzerland because of pollution...


Quoting LTBEWR (reply 6):
Allow more non-swiss products, espceially food products into their country, hurting local farmers.


Agree with you.
none
 
aloges
Posts: 14842
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:38 am

RE: Switzerland- Why No E.U?

Thu Feb 24, 2005 6:05 am

"Easier access as no border checkpoints, thus allowing more undesirable people into the country."

That last one isn't correct, the Schengen Treaty is not related to the EU, see Norway. Being a member of the EU does not make anyone a member of the Schengen Treaty, see the UK.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
User avatar
solnabo
Posts: 5019
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2008 8:53 am

RE: Switzerland- Why No E.U?

Thu Feb 24, 2005 7:03 am

Switzerland got 4 official languages, right?

German, French, Italian....dont remember the 4th!! Anyone who knows?

Danke/Merci/Grazi

Micke  Confused
Airbus SAS - Love them both
 
aviationmaster
Posts: 2151
Joined: Thu Oct 28, 1999 3:47 pm

RE: Switzerland- Why No E.U?

Thu Feb 24, 2005 7:13 am

Micke:

The 4th official language is Romansh.
 
kaddyuk
Posts: 3697
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 1:04 am

RE: Switzerland- Why No E.U?

Thu Feb 24, 2005 7:59 am

I once knew this guy from geneva...
His shirt had a very big sleeve...a

Anyone wanna continue? LoL!
Whoever said "laughter is the best medicine" never had Gonorrhea
 
sabenapilot
Posts: 2442
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2000 6:18 pm

RE: Switzerland- Why No E.U?

Thu Feb 24, 2005 8:18 am

Since Switzerland is a rather loose confederation of cantons and there is a clear mayority pro-EU in the French speaking part, did our French speaking Friends ever gave it a thought to leave the Helvetic confederation and join the EU on their own? After all, as I hear it, the French speaking Swiss are not particularly happy about the dominance of the German speaking part of their country (for instance the way in which SWISS disappeared from Geneva and concentrates on Zurich).
 
ZRH
Posts: 4371
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 1999 11:32 pm

RE: Switzerland- Why No E.U?

Thu Feb 24, 2005 11:34 am

Quoting LTBEWR (reply 6):
They would have to remove their very strict immigration and citizenship rules. They would also have to open up to guest workers as is common in the EU with the related additional social programs costs.


We don't have so strict immigration rules. We have, for example, more ex-Yugoslavians than any EU country. We have also already a contract with the EU that all EU citizens may work and live in Switzerland.

Quoting LTBEWR (reply 6):
They would have to conform to EU pollution and related laws


We even had stronger pollution laws as the EU had. We were the first country in Europe to forbid the leaded gas. In our days the laws against pollution are almost the same.

Quoting LTBEWR (reply 6):
Easier access as no border checkpoints, thus allowing more undesirable people into the country.


In fact at the boarder almost nobody is controlled, you usually pass by car without stopping.

There are other reasons: most people fear to loose our so called "direct democracy". We can vote over almost all new laws if we want to. We don't only have elections every four years but at least four times a year votations about new laws.
 
Klaus
Posts: 20622
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Switzerland- Why No E.U?

Thu Feb 24, 2005 12:05 pm

Then there´s the aspect that Switzerland de facto adapts to most EU regulations in order to stay halfway "compatible" with all their neighbours and primary trading partners... Joining the EU would finally open the possibility to actually have a say about those regulations as well... As of now, it´s an almost entirely passive process as far as I know...
 
aviationmaster
Posts: 2151
Joined: Thu Oct 28, 1999 3:47 pm

RE: Switzerland- Why No E.U?

Thu Feb 24, 2005 7:24 pm

The longer Switzerland puts off joining the EU, the more it´s going to hurt the country later on when it finally joins. But that´s probably still another 10-20 years down the road... heck it took us almost 50 years to join the UN!
 
DIJKKIJK
Posts: 1785
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2003 11:03 pm

RE: Switzerland- Why No E.U?

Thu Feb 24, 2005 7:37 pm

Quoting LTBEWR (reply 6):
They would have to conform to EU imposed government financing, tax and spending regulations


The one , only and the biggest reason why Switzerland doesn't want to join the EU!



Quoting LTBEWR (reply 6):
They would have to remove their very strict immigration and citizenship rules. They would also have to open up to guest workers as is common in the EU


Immigration and citizenship rules in all EU countries are as tough as the Swiss ones if not more.
and Switzerland has its share of guest. workers, as RJ100 has pointed out.
Never argue with idiots. They will bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience.
 
JGPH1A
Posts: 15080
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:36 pm

RE: Switzerland- Why No E.U?

Thu Feb 24, 2005 11:13 pm

Switzerland is halfway there already. They are already part of the Single Aviation Market, virtually all Swiss products already conform to EU consumer standards, and I think I read that Switzerland will join the Schengen travel area soon.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
ZRH
Posts: 4371
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 1999 11:32 pm

RE: Switzerland- Why No E.U?

Thu Feb 24, 2005 11:14 pm

Quoting DIJKKIJK (reply 18):
Immigration and citizenship rules in all EU countries are as tough as the Swiss ones if not more.
and Switzerland has its share of guest. workers, as RJ100 has pointed out.


That is true. We have more foreigners (in %) than any of the EU countries except perhaps Luxemburg. About 2 of our 7 million inhabitants are not Swiss citizens. Almost 30 %.
 
racko
Posts: 4548
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2001 12:06 am

RE: Switzerland- Why No E.U?

Fri Feb 25, 2005 2:01 am

The difference is, all the wealthy emigrants go to you while we get the ones who don't even get a job in their country...  Big grin

Switzerland is a case of its own, with an incredible history, and to be honest they're very, very well off at the moment - and the rule says: Never change a running system.
 
Stoney
Posts: 199
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2005 2:37 am

RE: Switzerland- Why No E.U?

Fri Feb 25, 2005 6:05 am

Hi guys

Some points are absolutely valid, and other points are just myths. I don't really have tons of time to explain it right now, but I'll do it once I get home (like later tonight or sometime tomorrow)

The other Swiss members pointed out how it really is, and to be honest, if you're not from Switzerland and have to listen to all these mostly stupid pro/contra discussions, in which the candidates always repeat the same arguments, you wouldn't know why we don't want to join the EU. It took us like forever to join the UN, where we aren't bound to do anything, so I'll guess it'll never happen that we join the EU. Well, I'll explain it later

Greetz
Stoney
BAZL - Bundesamt gegen Zivilluftfahrt - royally screwing around with swiss aviation
 
ZRH
Posts: 4371
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 1999 11:32 pm

RE: Switzerland- Why No E.U?

Fri Feb 25, 2005 9:38 am

Quoting Racko (reply 21):
The difference is, all the wealthy emigrants go to you while we get the ones who don't even get a job in their country...


Oh yes, all the Jugoslavien and Albanien people we have are wealthy and very well integrated. What bullsh... do you post? We have the most persons seeking asylum of all European countries (in % of the population). You in Germany don't have the half of it! That's the typical ignorance and arrogance of the Germans I like so much. Embarrassment The Germans are perhaps the most important reason why we don't want to join the EU.
 
Orion737
Posts: 3044
Joined: Sat Jan 08, 2005 10:14 pm

RE: Switzerland- Why No E.U?

Fri Feb 25, 2005 9:50 am

At least the Swiss have had their say on the EU. We in Britain had a referendum to jointhe EEC trade association but never a say on integration in the EU.

British politicians are scared to let the British people have a say on the Euro because they would lose it. Much of Britain is anti- EU.

Well done Switzerland and Norway for staying out, you are not missing a thing!
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Switzerland- Why No E.U?

Fri Feb 25, 2005 12:22 pm

Quoting RJ100 (reply 8):
And no offense but someone from the US is simply not allowed to bash Switzerland because of pollution...


Well technically true, but I would point out that you are bashing someone from Jersey.

You can't say thie same thing to someone from Alaska.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
swisskloten
Posts: 317
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: Switzerland- Why No E.U?

Mon Mar 07, 2005 3:10 pm

LTBEWR:
Switzerland voted to end neutrality about two years ago.
Also, things are fine in Switzerland. Maybe that's why they aren't desperate to joing the EU.
 
RJ100
Posts: 3895
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2000 1:37 am

RE: Switzerland- Why No E.U?

Mon Mar 07, 2005 6:07 pm

Sorry Swisskloten, but when did Switzerland vote about ending neutrality? If you mean the UN voting, then you are wrong anyway. Joining the UN did not mean to end neutrality.

Neutrality means to keep a place open for discussions in case of a conflict. It does not mean to accept violation against international law (such as genocid). And the UN is only acting against violation of international law. This is why we are a member of the UN but not a member of the NATO.

And come on, out of 192 worldwide states, 191 are now member of the UN...

Regards,
RJ100
none
 
JGPH1A
Posts: 15080
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:36 pm

RE: Switzerland- Why No E.U?

Mon Mar 07, 2005 6:33 pm

Quoting RJ100 (reply 26):
And come on, out of 192 worldwide states, 191 are now member of the UN...


So who's the hold-out ? I'm betting San Marino or the Vatican.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
RJ100
Posts: 3895
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2000 1:37 am

RE: Switzerland- Why No E.U?

Mon Mar 07, 2005 6:41 pm

San Marino is a member since 1992 as far as I know. And Vatican is not a state, its only a holy sea, so they cannot become a member.

I think the missing state is East Timor but Im not sure  Silly
none
 
pelican
Posts: 2429
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 9:51 pm

RE: Switzerland- Why No E.U?

Mon Mar 07, 2005 6:52 pm

Quoting ZRH (reply 22):
Oh yes, all the Jugoslavien and Albanien people we have are wealthy and very well integrated. What bullsh... do you post? We have the most persons seeking asylum of all European countries (in % of the population). You in Germany don't have the half of it! That's the typical ignorance and arrogance of the Germans I like so much. Embarrassment The Germans are perhaps the most important reason why we don't want to join the EU.


Sounds like another small country in the neighborhood with penis envy? irked 
It's not everything about arrogance but often about ignorance.
It's probably because you can't see many Jugoslavien or Albanien people in St. Moritz, Zermatt, Saas Fee and all the other typical tourist spots.
We have 9 neighbor countries (I hope I haven't overlooked a country  cheeky  ) so it's sometimes difficult to know everything about our neighbors. It's easier to ignore other countries if you live in a bigger one (s. USA)
But I can assure you I have seen enough not so rich looking obviously not native Swiss people last time I visit Basel. And I'm still under the impression that they do jobs that native Swiss wouldn't do anymore.

pelican
 
RJ100
Posts: 3895
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2000 1:37 am

RE: Switzerland- Why No E.U?

Mon Mar 07, 2005 7:05 pm

Quoting Pelican (reply 29):
But I can assure you I have seen enough not so rich looking obviously not native Swiss people last time I visit Basel


Quoting Pelican (reply 29):
And I'm still under the impression that they do jobs that native Swiss wouldn't do anymore.



Yes there are a lot of foreign people in Basel. Are they doing jobs others wouldnt do? No. Why? Because we have laws in Switzerland that guarantee a minimum wage. So everyone gets enough to live. In fact, Basel has one of the highest average income in Switzerland.

Immigration is a problem here. For instance I would not send my children into a school in the city of Basel (thats why a lot of people leave this city and now live outside of Basel in the the cantons of Basel-Land, Aargau and Solothurn). Not because Im against the foreigners, but because its a problem if there are two Swiss in a class with 20 foreigners (and this is no bullshit, its a fact here...).

Regards,
RJ100
none
 
airsicknessbag
Posts: 4626
Joined: Thu Aug 17, 2000 2:45 am

RE: Switzerland- Why No E.U?

Mon Mar 07, 2005 10:43 pm

Quoting RJ100 (reply 26):
out of 192 worldwide states, 191 are now member of the UN...


Correct.

Quoting JGPH1A (reply 27):
So who's the hold-out ? I'm betting San Marino or the Vatican.


Correct, it's indeed the State of the Vatican City.

Quoting RJ100 (reply 28):
San Marino is a member since 1992 as far as I know.


Correct.

Quoting RJ100 (reply 28):
Vatican is not a state, its only a holy sea, so they cannot become a member.


A holy sea, with holy fish swimming around in it?  Wink
The Vatican is a state, there's no question about it. (Hence the name Stato della Città del Vaticano, State of the Vatican City.) She has observer status at the UN.

The point is, the Holy See is a sovereign entity - but in order to be a country, a sovereign territory is needed. The Holy See obviously has that, namely the Vatican City.

The other notable sovereign entity is the Sovereign Military Hospitaller Order of St. John of Jerusalem of Rhodes and of Malta - it lacks a sovereign territory, so it can't be considered a state.

Quoting RJ100 (reply 28):
I think the missing state is East Timor but Im not sure


Nope, Timorleste became independent on May 20, 2002 and joined the UN on September 27, 2002.

Daniel Smile
 
RJ100
Posts: 3895
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2000 1:37 am

RE: Switzerland- Why No E.U?

Tue Mar 08, 2005 2:42 am

Hey Daniel

Very interesting. But I disagree with Vatican. It is a so called "Heiliger Stuhl" and the English word for it is holy sea (I know it sounds stupid Big grin ) and not a state. Although that most people say State of the Vatican City, legally it is not a state. Therefore it has only an observer status in the UN (you are correct on that).

So if Timor is a member who is the missing one? Big grin

Regards,
RJ100
none
 
JGPH1A
Posts: 15080
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:36 pm

RE: Switzerland- Why No E.U?

Tue Mar 08, 2005 2:52 am

Quoting RJ100 (reply 32):
English word for it is holy sea


Nearly. The English term is Holy See (with an 'e').
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
RJ100
Posts: 3895
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2000 1:37 am

RE: Switzerland- Why No E.U?

Tue Mar 08, 2005 2:54 am

Oh god damn it Big grin

But it doesnt sound much better anyway Big grin Big grin
none
 
swissgabe
Posts: 5147
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2000 4:57 am

RE: Switzerland- Why No E.U?

Tue Mar 08, 2005 6:10 am

The EU does have like a lot of other things have advantages and disadvantages. Honestly, I wouldn't know right now if I would like to see Switzerland joining the EU or not. With the first bilateral agreements Switzerland has already made an important step thowards the EU and others will follow in the future.

It is a fact that in average 33% of the people living in Switzerland are foreigners (in Zurich it is around 40%). However, the positive side to see is that I wouldn't see Switzerland where it is now without all those Italian and Spanish workers, Tamil people working mainly in the kitchen and all those other people working here. Compared to eg. the UAE we are still good off around here. And it doesn't matter how many foreigners are living here because the people is the same like everywhere else, it starts when people can not integrate.
Smooth as silk - Royal Orchid Service /// Suid-Afrikaanse Lugdiens - Springbok
 
pelican
Posts: 2429
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 9:51 pm

RE: Switzerland- Why No E.U?

Tue Mar 08, 2005 6:47 am

Quoting RJ100 (reply 30):
Immigration is a problem here. For instance I would not send my children into a school in the city of Basel (thats why a lot of people leave this city and now live outside of Basel in the the cantons of Basel-Land, Aargau and Solothurn). Not because Im against the foreigners, but because its a problem if there are two Swiss in a class with 20 foreigners (and this is no bullshit, its a fact here...).


Sounds quite familiar. Here in Berlin we have a school with about 350 kids and only 4 have German origins  dopey . That's of course a cause of many problems.
One problem is inferior education. Which leads to smaller chances to get a (good) job while the natives have better job opportunities...

pelican
 
airsicknessbag
Posts: 4626
Joined: Thu Aug 17, 2000 2:45 am

RE: Switzerland- Why No E.U?

Tue Mar 08, 2005 7:49 pm

Quoting RJ100 (reply 32):
the English word for it is holy sea


I know. I was just poking fun at your "holy sea" vs. Holy See confusion Big grin

Quoting RJ100 (reply 32):
legally [the State of the Vatican City] is not a state.


I guess you'll have to agree to disgree with me and basically every scholar of international law and the UN - none of whom denies the Vatican's state status.

From Wikipedia:

"Although the Holy See is closely associated with the State of the City of the Vatican, the independent, sovereign state governed by the Holy See, the two entities are in fact separate and distinct. The Holy See administers the Vatican City, including all diplomatic functions; foreign embassies are accredited to the Holy See rather than to the Vatican City, and the Holy See establishes diplomatic agreements ("Concordats") with other sovereign states, on behalf both of itself and of the Vatican City (as appropriate). Generally speaking, the Holy See is a party on its own behalf to treaties of Ecclesiastical interest, and a party on the Vatican City's behalf to treaties of technical significance (e.g., regarding co-operation with Italy)."

Quoting RJ100 (reply 32):
Therefore it has only an observer status in the UN


The official UN list of "Non-Member States Maintaining Permanent Observer Missions at UN Headquarters" (in alphabetical order  Wink ) :

Holy See
(Because the [sovereign entity and non-state] Holy See maintains diplomatic relations on behalf of the State of the Vatican City.)

Quoting RJ100 (reply 32):
So if Timor is a member who is the missing one?


Well, if you don't count the Vatican, none, really.


Great reads, especially if you're a bit legally minded:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_Hospitaller
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatican_City
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_see

Daniel Smile
 
RJ100
Posts: 3895
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2000 1:37 am

RE: Switzerland- Why No E.U?

Tue Mar 08, 2005 9:41 pm

Hi Daniel

Now I can agree with you that Vatican is a state.
Thanks for the links and information. I will read it with interest.

In fact I just begun to study international law recently so im very interested in that.

Best regards,
Thomas  Smile
none
 
kilavoud
Posts: 863
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2003 7:47 pm

RE: Switzerland- Why No E.U?

Wed Mar 09, 2005 4:44 am

Just like Saudi Arabia is proud to remain number one in Petrol, Switzerland is proud to remain number one in Banking.

Some legacies need a special care, do they not ?

Correct me if I am wrong.

Cheers. Kilavoud.
 
MIAspotter
Posts: 2848
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2001 1:57 pm

RE: Switzerland- Why No E.U?

Wed Mar 09, 2005 5:16 am

Quoting Kilavoud (reply 39):
Switzerland is proud to remain number one in Banking.


And don't forget Number 1 in Chocolate!.... hmmmmm...chocolate....

MIAspotter
Nos vamos de Vueling?
 
kilavoud
Posts: 863
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2003 7:47 pm

RE: Switzerland- Why No E.U?

Wed Mar 09, 2005 5:28 am

Cocoa need a special care too. That's right. So many things need a special care nowadays. Planes too.

Good night. Kilavoud.
 
Regis
Posts: 281
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 6:49 am

RE: Switzerland- Why No E.U?

Wed Mar 09, 2005 5:32 am

What is there for Switzerland to gain by joining the EU?

Very little. Recognition from its EU partners? Some tax advantages in exporting its products to other EU members?

What is there for Switzerland to lose by joining the EU?

A LOT. Namely HUGE amounts of $$$$ in economic aid to the poorer EU partners + a drastic change in its unique political system and way of life by the adoption of thousands of pages of EU legislation + restriction on sovereingty by submission to higher political authority.

I'd say it is a bad deal overall.
 
User avatar
RayChuang
Posts: 8007
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2000 7:43 am

RE: Switzerland- Why No E.U?

Wed Mar 09, 2005 6:17 am

Given the fact that the Swiss likely to keep neutral as much as possible, fat chance they will join the European Union anytime soon as a full member.

Mind you, the Swiss will participate in trans-European projects such as the unified Air Traffic Control system (if only to avoid in the future those unnecessary tragedies with that LX BAe 146 crash near ZRH and the mid-air collision on the German-Swiss border in the last few years), common consumer goods regulation to keep consumer costs down, and joining the Schengen visa control system to make people from other parts of Europe transiting across Switerland easier. These projects have actual benefits for the Swiss.
 
Marambio
Posts: 1145
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 9:41 am

RE: Switzerland- Why No E.U?

Wed Mar 09, 2005 11:54 am

Hello gentlemen,

Very interesting discussion so far. It's a great pleasure to read your posts.

Just a small correction: the missing country in the UN is Taiwan.

East Timor joined the UN in 2001 under the name of Timor Leste. The Vatican City can't be counted as a country, and as a matter of fact they are observers, and mainly abstain from every voting because they don't feel it is their duty to interfere on ultra-catholic affairs.

Taiwan was a UN founding member, because it was considered that the pro-western Chinese, leadered by Chiang Kai Sek, fleed to Formosa after Mao took the power in the mainland. Remember Taiwan's official name: Republic of China (ROC). Mailand China is the People's Republic of China (PRC). Taiwan even got veto power at the Security Council at that time!

Nonetheless when the People's Republic of China became more and more important, the USSR and some other members started negotiating an entrance of it to the United Nations.

The PRC does not recognize Taiwan as a sovereign country, but as a rebellious province, thus the only way the PRC would accept to join the UN was taking Taiwan's place.

The ROC used its veto power once - when Albania proposed the entrace of Mongolia to the UN, saying that Mongolia was a de facto part of the PRC. After many attemps and a clear message from the USSR, the ROC had to admit Mongolia.

In the 1960s, countries sympathetic to the PRC started asking the UN to admit it into the Organization. Of course Taiwan said no out loud. But the admition of newly independent (African) nations that somewhat agreed with Beijing's model, plus Nixon's desire to improve relationships with the PRC (to counterbalance the USSR), reduced US support towards Taiwan.

Resolution 2758, passed on October 25th, 1971, withdrew recognition of the ROC as the genuine government of China in favour of the PRC. The People's Republic of China has, since then, taken all powers of Taiwan at the United Nations.

Taiwan has tried and tried unsuccessfully to re-enter the UN, but the abovementioned PRC policy is very clear - for them, Taiwan is not a country, just a province.

Saludos,
Marambio
Aerolíneas Argentinas - La Argentina que levanta vuelo
 
airsicknessbag
Posts: 4626
Joined: Thu Aug 17, 2000 2:45 am

RE: Switzerland- Why No E.U?

Wed Mar 09, 2005 7:07 pm

Quoting RJ100 (Reply 38):
Now I can agree with you that Vatican is a state.


Hey Thomas, that must be a first for non_av: a civilised discussion ends in one participant actually convincing the other one  Wink We should be nominated for a shared Nobel Prize for peace  Wink  Silly

Quoting Marambio (Reply 44):
East Timor joined the UN in 2001 under the name of Timor Leste.


2002, actually; please see reply 31.

Quoting Marambio (Reply 44):
The Vatican City can't be counted as a country,


Oh please, first RJ100, now you  Wink Really nobody denies the Vatican City’s status as a fully fledged state; please see reply 37.

Quoting Marambio (Reply 44):
Just a small correction: the missing country in the UN is Taiwan.


Taiwan is as much a country as the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus, Somaliland or Transnistria.

All the governments in the world (as well as the UN and international organisations) agree that there is formally and legally only one China. Of course, this happens due to lobbying from the PRC.

177 states (including yours and mine) see the PRC as the only legal representative of China – we might personally not agree with this, but since we can’t just go and say "rubbish, Taiwan is a country, I’m recognising her", we’ll have to (grudgingly) accept our respective governments’ One-China-Policy. To them (to us), the so called "Republic of China" is a nullum that existed from 1912 to 1949 and was replaced by her successor, the People’s Republic of China.

25 states recognise the ROC but not the PRC. These are:

In Europe: Vatican;

in America: Costa Rica, Dominican Republic, El Salvador, Haiti, Honduras,
Nicaragua, Panamá, Paraguay, St. Kitts and Nevis, St. Vincent and the Grenadines;

in Asia: none;

in Africa: Burkina Faso, Gambia, Malawi, São Tomé e Príncipe, Senegal, Swaziland, Tchad;

in Oceania: Kiribati, Marshall Islands, Nauru, Palau, Solomones, Tuvalu.


Without doubt, de facto, Taiwan is a country - for what it's worth. Legally, and that's all that matters to me in this context (I wonder why  Wink ), she's not.

Daniel Smile
 
alphafloor
Posts: 1265
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 12:36 am

RE: Switzerland- Why No E.U?

Wed Mar 09, 2005 8:32 pm

Quoting RJ100 (Reply 30):
Immigration is a problem here. For instance I would not send my children into a school in the city of Basel (thats why a lot of people leave this city and now live outside of Basel in the the cantons of Basel-Land, Aargau and Solothurn). Not because Im against the foreigners, but because its a problem if there are two Swiss in a class with 20 foreigners (and this is no bullshit, its a fact here...).


Can you explain why it is a problem ?
Whatever
 
RJ100
Posts: 3895
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2000 1:37 am

RE: Switzerland- Why No E.U?

Wed Mar 09, 2005 11:00 pm

Sure. If you have 2 Swiss kids in a class and 20 others ( and those 20 others speak 10 different languages) then you can imagine how much the kids understand what the teacher talks about (in German). And if noone understands something, then you dont learn something. The kids get unconcentrated and the teacher is more like a host for the kids then. And the Swiss kids that understand something dont learn a thing then.

Not to speak about problems that happen when different countries and cultures "meet" each others...

And all the British, US and Asian people that live here send their kids into the "International school" in Basel. So the public schools are full of people from poorer countries. A lot of them are also from former crisis regions (Yougoslavia) and the atmosphere in the school is definitely bad if they meet up...

Basel is a good example. Just look at the statistics. Everyone that can afford it (mainly the Swiss and the richer foreign people) leave the city in favor of Basel-Land, Aargau and Solothurn. While the amount of foreign people in Basel is raising (Turkey, Yougoslavia, Sri Lanka etc. etc.).

Again, I have absolutely nothing against those people. But we can not just say everything is alright (like the local socialist party...). Ok very off topic now.

Regards,
RJ100
none
 
Stoney
Posts: 199
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2005 2:37 am

RE: Switzerland- Why No E.U?

Fri Mar 11, 2005 6:08 am

My sister also went to school in a class of 16, where she was the only native German speaker. The problem is not that the foreigners aren't smart, but that they don't understand most of the things, which means that the whole education has to be slowed down so much that nobody really profits from it.
That much about education.

What I think is the biggest problem is the direct democracy. When we want something to change, we, means every single person, can start an Initiative and force the country to vote over it. How the could we keep that privilege if we join the EU? And this direct democracy is really dear to many people, even if only about one third of the adult citizens decide to vote.

Greetz
Stoney
BAZL - Bundesamt gegen Zivilluftfahrt - royally screwing around with swiss aviation

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 33 guests