gkirk
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Should The UK Leave The EU?

Fri Feb 25, 2005 10:05 pm

Just wanted to know what your thoughts on this are, what the Pro's and Con's on this are and should the UK indulge into a better relationship with the USA.
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
Avianca
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RE: Should The UK Leave The EU?

Fri Feb 25, 2005 10:31 pm

of course they could leave the EU to have a better relationship with the USA, but a much lesser relationship to the "KEY MARKET" Europe. They are not paying so much as other countrys, so why they should leave...
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
NumberTwelve
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RE: Should The UK Leave The EU?

Fri Feb 25, 2005 10:36 pm

Gkirk, do you see a context between "leaving EU" and "better relationship with the USA"? or is it just 2 threats into one?

I think GB has best relationship with the USA - GWB would have had contact with the people in that country without getting "shocked" by people who are demonstrating against him. In Mainz he was little scared having direct contact to the "civilians".

I think that every country that is member of the EU thought about it very long time and the only "country" that left the EU is Greenland.
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Gman94
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RE: Should The UK Leave The EU?

Fri Feb 25, 2005 10:37 pm

My thoughts about the EU is that is should just be a free trade area and not a political forum where powers are traded between the member nations and taken further away from the people of these countries.

I think that it's a scandal that role of the EU in Britain has not been put to the people in a referendum, successive governments have given more power to the EU over the British people which to me is undemocratic, power should be brought closer to the people rather than taken further away from us.

We can be close friends with both Europe and the US but neither should wield any power over us, that should be left in the hands of the British people and it's elected government.
British Airways - The Way To Fly
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Should The UK Leave The EU?

Fri Feb 25, 2005 10:45 pm

What f*cking powers are being taken away from the member countries? After all, all got members in the EU parliament and the commision. It is rather the other way around that a few countries are using the veto rights to blackmail the others by connecting items which are not on the agenda.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
Thom@s
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RE: Should The UK Leave The EU?

Fri Feb 25, 2005 10:47 pm

Way to start a thread guaranteed to pass 500 post GKirk...  Big grin

I think they should... but I'm from Norway. We're not even in the EU. (And doing really well btw... ) Big grin

Thom@s

[Edited 2005-02-25 14:48:29]
"If guns don't kill people, people kill people - does that mean toasters don't toast toast, toast toast toast?"
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Should The UK Leave The EU?

Fri Feb 25, 2005 10:49 pm

As long as you have your oil....

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
Avianca
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RE: Should The UK Leave The EU?

Fri Feb 25, 2005 10:52 pm

problem of the EU is that the complete storry is not fair for every country... some countrys only receives money and the others only pays pays and pays.

cheers
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Should The UK Leave The EU?

Fri Feb 25, 2005 10:54 pm

Short answer - No. The UK, contrary to what Rupert Murdoch would have you believe, does actually benefit from membership of the EU.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
Ready4Pushback
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RE: Should The UK Leave The EU?

Fri Feb 25, 2005 11:04 pm

I used to think that the EU was a really good thing, and that we should throw everything we had into it, and I think there was a time in the past when we should have done that.

The problem is that the British (at last the English) are very conservative (I mean, even the liberals of us are more conservative than most other country's liberals), and conservatives tend to do things slower, they need time to adapt - no radical change. So, UK government after UK government have missed all sort of oppertunities to get into the EU and really make a difference on bahalf of the UK. A lot of people here think that the EU is about the French and the Germans spreading their power over Europe, gradually taking over (not my opinion, by the way).

An example of this is the issue of the Euro. I think that Britian should had joined when it first came out - it's should have been one of the inital countries, with France, etc.. We should have been in there first making the Euro a currency that works for Britian as well as the rest of Europe, but now the Euro will never be a currency for Britain. It will always be the European currency made for the first few to join that we may adopt, and if we are going to, we are going to have to make some changes to the way we do things with money (for example, the way we mortgage our homes).

If Britain is going to be in the EU, it needs to do it actively - be in there making it right for us, or we need to think about leaving. It will be interesting to see which other countries call for Britain to leave if everyone else accepts the new constitution and Britain rejects it.

The point I'm trying to make though is that the British are too slow at adopting change, and embracing the changes needed for the future. The world moves on and makes these changes and we don't. A very good example of this, IMO, is a topic that is currently being discussed in the Aviation forum about the new runway at LHR and how it will take 3 centuries for us to sort out the legal crap before it goes ahead. It's the same with the EU - Europeans are able to look to the future and think about it. Britain is too conservative (with a small 'c').
 
cornish
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RE: Should The UK Leave The EU?

Fri Feb 25, 2005 11:18 pm

Quoting Ready4Pushback (reply 9):
So, UK government after UK government have missed all sort of oppertunities to get into the EU and really make a difference on bahalf of the UK.


Very true. UK should have been in there shaping EU policy they way they wanted, or not got involved at all - this way we do ourselves no good at all. France and Germany have shaped the EU in the way they desired, Britain should have been doing the same.

The thing is that much as we are not always popular with our neighbours, France and Germany most definitely don't want us to pull out if the EU - we are too valuable as one of th ebiggest net contributors to the EU budget.

Also despite France and Germany working closely together in the EU, neither has ever truly trusted the other. France wants Britain there to counterbalance German domination (the Germany fear long being a problem mindset in French foreign policy, and is stil lthere to some extent). Likewise Germany likes Britain there to stop an imbalance of mediterranean nations - which France sometimes falls into.

So even if we wante dto leave the EU, there would be a lot of diplomatic efforts from other countries to try and ensure we don't.
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
diesel1
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RE: Should The UK Leave The EU?

Fri Feb 25, 2005 11:56 pm

Some interesting contribution to this thread explaining the case for staying in the EU - still I'm sure the Eurosceptics will be along soon propagating their untruths and misleading stories about all thing 'european'.

In answer to your questions GKirk - 'No' the UK should not leave the EU, and 'No' the UK should not 'indulge' in a closer relationship with the USA.


Quoting Gman94 (reply 3):
I think that it's a scandal that role of the EU in Britain has not been put to the people in a referendum, successive governments have given more power to the EU over the British people which to me is undemocratic, power should be brought closer to the people rather than taken further away from us.


Gman94, back up this loose statement with some facts... otherwise some may think you have been reading the Daily Mail for too long.
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Orion737
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RE: Should The UK Leave The EU?

Fri Feb 25, 2005 11:58 pm

Lets wait and see what the Britih public think on the EU constitution, thats if Blair ever dares to call it!
 
ussherd
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RE: Should The UK Leave The EU?

Sat Feb 26, 2005 12:04 am

The problem is that the British (at last the English) are very conservative

Herein lies one of the most positive aspects of UK membership in the EU. Socially, the EU stance on human rights has had a very definite positive impact on a range of issues, particularly the treatment of minorities. A case in point – a large majority of the population in Northern Ireland opposed the introduction of the Civil Partnership legislation to N Ireland (this isn’t the most gay-friendly of places). However, London insisted that N Ireland couldn’t be excluded, because such a move would contravene the EU stance on human rights. Certainly, the EU as a system needs to become more accountable, and it’s present structure is too centralist… but that’s something that (I believe) will change over time. The fact that the EU legislators are somewhat removed from the general population can present problems. However, it can also be an advantage: no UK party would dare to state as a matter of policy that gay couples should be allowed to marry and adopt, for fear of an electoral backlash. However, the EU has stated just that, being free to do “the right thing” despite the entrenched bigotry of certain segments of the population at large.

Personally, I think the British have to get over the idea that they’re somehow uniquely different from continental Europe. Are the British more different from the French, than the Greeks from the Germans? I don’t think so. I don’t see the EU as a usurper of national sovereignty (and don’t give a damn about that, in any case). It should be particularly easy for a citizen of the UK to understand the concept of layers of authority and layers of loyalty to a particular “nation”. After all, we are – first: English, Scottish, Northern Irish or Welsh – then British – then European.

The fact that individual countries belong to something larger than themselves is, to me, a good thing. Hopefully it will allow people to look beyond their immediate surroundings… and there’s a comfort in knowing that, no matter what the quirks, beliefs, customs and prejudices of any particular region of the EU might be, we all belong to something much greater than our individual region or country; a bigger entity where those very beliefs, customs and prejudices are diluted to a level where they can no longer be unjustly imposed on those who don’t share them.
Cada loco con su tema...
 
Arsenal@LHR
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RE: Should The UK Leave The EU?

Sat Feb 26, 2005 12:08 am

There is no middle ground, no grey area as far as the EU is concerned. You're either in and become an active member while complying with all the rules and regulations. You do what "Brussels" tells you to do. Or you can go your own way, and i am not entirely in favour of Britain leaving the EU. However the next two years will define which way the UK heads when government gives us a referendum on the constitution. If the British public were to say 'No' (highly likely) then i would seriously question whether it would be worth it for Britain to remain a peripheral member. There is no point in being part of a union if your electorate are completely hostile towards it, Britain would also be under pressure from heavyweights like France and Germany to leave. The only other way i can think of is to be like Switzerland, a "associate member" with only a free trade agreement with the EU, but that is way off.
In Arsene we trust!!
 
ushermittwoch
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RE: Should The UK Leave The EU?

Sat Feb 26, 2005 12:20 am

Quoting NumberTwelve (reply 2):
I think that every country that is member of the EU thought about it very long time and the only "country" that left the EU is Greenland.


...but only after having the EEC pay for the refurbishment of one of their airports, I believe Illulissat.
And I am sure that they are kicking themselves now, because they could use the EU cash.


Quoting Gkirk (reply 0):
Just wanted to know what your thoughts on this are, what the Pro's and Con's on this are and should the UK indulge into a better relationship with the USA.


Well maybe you should start learning about the EU before raising questions of Britain leaving it. As you have proven in a recent Ryanair thread, you don't even know how many and which countries are in it.
Where have all the tri-jets gone...
 
gkirk
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RE: Should The UK Leave The EU?

Sat Feb 26, 2005 12:30 am

I was unsure about Cyprus, thats all...
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Ready4Pushback
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RE: Should The UK Leave The EU?

Sat Feb 26, 2005 12:33 am

Quoting Ussherd (reply 13):

I totally agree with what you say - you said it much better than I could!

Quoting Arsenal@LHR (reply 14):
If the British public were to say 'No'

..if this was the case then I think I wouldn't want to be here. I really think that, for Europe's sake, Britain should leave, and let Europe forge ahead and make something good of the EU. If Britain says No, they are holding the EU back, and they should not be allowed to do that.

Quoting Diesel1 (reply 11):
Gman94, back up this loose statement with some facts... otherwise some may think you have been reading the Daily Mail for too long.

An example is the human rights issue. Britain's Armed Forces didn't allow gays in, until the EU had something to say about it, and they had to change. Now I agree with EU completely, but some people in Britain see this as the EU intruding into our sovereignty. I think Gman94 is wrong to say that it is less democratic though - we do have EU elections over here, just not many people bother to vote or take it seriously.
 
cornish
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RE: Should The UK Leave The EU?

Sat Feb 26, 2005 12:33 am

Quoting Gkirk (reply 16):
I was unsure about Cyprus, thats all...


Even Cyprus is unsure - half of it is in the EU and half of it is out !!
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
Gman94
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RE: Should The UK Leave The EU?

Sat Feb 26, 2005 12:38 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (reply 4):
What f*cking powers are being taken away from the member countries? After all, all got members in the EU parliament and the commision. It is rather the other way around that a few countries are using the veto rights to blackmail the others by connecting items which are not on the agenda.




Quoting Diesel1 (reply 11):
Gman94, back up this loose statement with some facts... otherwise some may think you have been reading the Daily Mail for too long.


Oh I take it organisations such as the European Parliament and the European Commission are powerless bodies and can be disbanded for the waste of European tax payers money that they are. Therefore we also have no need for the European Constitution and can put to good use and recycle it as toilet paper.

I also wondered when the silly insults about tabloid huggers would come out. I forgot people who are against the EU are uneducated, backward thinking neanderthals, who are slaves to Rupert Murdoch. and not just people who want to be governed by the British government who we elect and nobody else.

It's a simple question really who do you want to be governed by?

Why are we being forced into the EU? If it's a powerless organisation then it's pointless and we have no need to be in it.

If the EU is a organisation that does have power over us then I don't want to us to be in it. I want deceicions affecting me taken by my government in the interest of Britain.
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JGPH1A
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RE: Should The UK Leave The EU?

Sat Feb 26, 2005 12:42 am

Quoting Cornish (reply 18):
Even Cyprus is unsure - half of it is in the EU and half of it is out !!


Not true - the whole of the island of Cyprus is in the EU - half of it happens to be occupied by Turkey, but the EU does not recognise the Republic of Northern Cyprus (nobody except Turkey does).
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
cornish
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RE: Should The UK Leave The EU?

Sat Feb 26, 2005 12:53 am

Quoting JGPH1A (reply 20):
Not true - the whole of the island of Cyprus is in the EU - half of it happens to be occupied by Turkey, but the EU does not recognise the Republic of Northern Cyprus (nobody except Turkey does).


Actually I knew that (have spent much time on the island). Was getting at the fact that half the island doesn't get to enjoy the benefits of EU membership, even if technically they are in. The Cyprus problem has long been a headache with EU entry.
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
Klaus
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RE: Should The UK Leave The EU?

Sat Feb 26, 2005 1:03 am

Hey, is it that time again...? Oh, yes, it isBig grin
(It´s been a year ago... 1823 posts to beat.  Wink/being sarcastic)


Gman94: If the EU is a organisation that does have power over us then I don't want to us to be in it.

The thing that baffles me the most about the british europhobes is their utter refusal to even consider the fact that Britain is one of the controlling partners in The EU - just like everybody else.

So unless the british government in the respective EU organisations and the british members of the European Parliament are just sleeping, "the EU" is just as much british as it is french, german, spanish, greek, polish, ...

Simplification is at the base of every prejudice, and this one is no different.  Insane


Gman94: I want deceicions affecting me taken by my government in the interest of Britain.

And where, specifically, could Britain actually achieve more without the EU? You should have learned by now that appeasement to US interests is entirely inconsequential to actual US policy - British interests were simply ignored when Bush slapped tarriffs on steel imports; It took a massive response by the EU to put things right again.

Just don´t delude yourself!  Wink/being sarcastic
 
Gman94
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RE: Should The UK Leave The EU?

Sat Feb 26, 2005 1:32 am

I really am exasperated and disillusioned at times by people who are pro EU. If you show dissent against the grand European project then you are belittled and ridiculed it really does annoy me. Can anyone actually tell me why the sky will fall in if Britain or any other country is not in the EU, there are 25 countries in the EU so the other 300 or so countries in the world that are not in the EU are going to be up sh*t creek without a paddle because they are not part of this organisation that will cure all the worlds problems?
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ushermittwoch
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RE: Should The UK Leave The EU?

Sat Feb 26, 2005 1:40 am

Quoting Gman94 (reply 23):
Can anyone actually tell me why the sky will fall in if Britain or any other country is not in the EU, there are 25 countries in the EU so the other 300 or so countries in the world that are not in the EU are going to be up sh*t creek without a paddle because they are not part of this organisation that will cure all the worlds problems?


Hmmmmmmm, maybe it's because ALL of Britain's neighbors, with the exception of Norway are in it and there are no trade barriers between the countries anymore. But if you want the "great British industry" to try to compete in Europe, the place where most British goods are sold and where Britain gets most imports from, in an environment that puts a huge tax burden on British products, you will have a lot of problems.
I have, maybe through living on the Continent, come to the conclusion that moving forward is better than thinking that the Empire still exists and thinking that Britannia rules anything.
And if you think sucking up to the US is better than being on good terms with neighbors that acutally want to make the environment you live in or next to better, then you must be either blind or dumb and at best very naive.
Where have all the tri-jets gone...
 
gkirk
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RE: Should The UK Leave The EU?

Sat Feb 26, 2005 1:45 am

Quoting Klaus (reply 22):
The thing that baffles me the most about the british europhobes is their utter refusal to even consider the fact that Britain is one of the controlling partners in The EU - just like everybody else.


Sorry Klaus, Germany and France are the controlling partners.
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
Klaus
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RE: Should The UK Leave The EU?

Sat Feb 26, 2005 1:46 am

Gman94: I really am exasperated and disillusioned at times by people who are pro EU. If you show dissent against the grand European project then you are belittled and ridiculed it really does annoy me.

It´s got little to do with your position... rather with a certain dearth of arguments for it.


Gman94: Can anyone actually tell me why the sky will fall in if Britain or any other country is not in the EU

It won´t. You just would notice a substantial decline in many areas of your life, be it economy, freedom of travel (okay - Britain is behind on that anyway) and above all political influence (see above, for instance).


Gman94: there are 25 countries in the EU so the other 300 or so countries in the world

The UN currently has 191 member nations (Growth in UN Membership); You´re really not helping your case.
 
Gman94
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RE: Should The UK Leave The EU?

Sat Feb 26, 2005 1:50 am

Quoting Ushermittwoch (reply 24):
Hmmmmmmm, maybe it's because ALL of Britain's neighbors, with the exception of Norway are in it and there are no trade barriers between the countries anymore. But if you want the "great British industry" to try to compete in Europe, the place where most British goods are sold and where Britain gets most imports from, in an environment that puts a huge tax burden on British products, you will have a lot of problems.
I have, maybe through living on the Continent, come to the conclusion that moving forward is better than thinking that the Empire still exists and thinking that Britannia rules anything.
And if you think sucking up to the US is better than being on good terms with neighbors that acutally want to make the environment you live in or next to better, then you must be either blind or dumb and at best very naive


There you go again cheap insults. I am not living in the past, I do not pine for the days of the Empire when Britannia ruled the wave and do not believe it is a choice of being either part of Europe of part of the US. I have no problem with the European Union being a free trade area but that is as far as it should go. Anyone who thinks that the EU is not heading down the path of European super state needs to get their head our of their arse quite frankly.
British Airways - The Way To Fly
 
Gman94
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RE: Should The UK Leave The EU?

Sat Feb 26, 2005 1:52 am

Quoting Klaus (reply 26):
Gman94: there are 25 countries in the EU so the other 300 or so countries in the world

The UN currently has 191 member nations (Growth in UN Membership); You´re really not helping your case.


For god's sake it was meant to prove a point not be a factually correct statement, 300 or 191 the point still stands.
British Airways - The Way To Fly
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Should The UK Leave The EU?

Sat Feb 26, 2005 1:55 am

Quoting Gman94 (reply 27):
Anyone who thinks that the EU is not heading down the path of European super state needs to get their head our of their arse quite frankly.


In order for the EU to become a federal superstate, all the member governments would have to agree to that. Since NOBODY wants that, or has ever stated that they want that, or could ever get away with stating they want that because they would lose votes, the likelihood of the United States of Europe is about as high as Kirkie waking up on a Sunday without a traffic cone on his head. This is a paranoid fantasy at best. Murdoch really did a number on you, didn't he ?
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
Ready4Pushback
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RE: Should The UK Leave The EU?

Sat Feb 26, 2005 1:55 am

Quoting Gkirk (reply 25):
Sorry Klaus, Germany and France are the controlling partners.

I totally agree, but I think that it's partly our government's fault. Britain should have partnered up with someone like Spain or the Netherlands. Another friendship in the EU like the France-German one would really cause havoc.
 
Thom@s
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RE: Should The UK Leave The EU?

Sat Feb 26, 2005 1:56 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (reply 6):
As long as you have your oil....


Yep, and that should last at least a good 50 years, so we'll talk then... Big grin  Big grin

Thom@s
"If guns don't kill people, people kill people - does that mean toasters don't toast toast, toast toast toast?"
 
Gman94
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RE: Should The UK Leave The EU?

Sat Feb 26, 2005 1:59 am

Quoting JGPH1A (reply 29):
In order for the EU to become a federal superstate, all the member governments would have to agree to that. Since NOBODY wants that, or has ever stated that they want that, or could ever get away with stating they want that because they would lose votes, the likelihood of the United States of Europe is about as high as Kirkie waking up on a Sunday without a traffic cone on his head. This is a paranoid fantasy at best. Murdoch really did a number on you, didn't he ?


ARRRRGGGGHHH!!!!! When will you get in to your thick minds that just because I am against the EU it does not mean I have been brainwashed by that twat Murdoch, I can inform myself of the issues and make my own mind up thank you without needing to pick up a tabloid newspaper.
British Airways - The Way To Fly
 
Klaus
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RE: Should The UK Leave The EU?

Sat Feb 26, 2005 1:59 am

Gkirk: Sorry Klaus, Germany and France are the controlling partners.

If you feel your EU delegations and your MEPs are ineffective, why are you still sitting on you butt instead of kicking theirs?

If there should in fact be a lack of british influence, it´s because of a lack of initiative on your part. The EU is constructed to let everyone participate. If you don´t want to, however, it´s simply your own problem.
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Should The UK Leave The EU?

Sat Feb 26, 2005 2:05 am

Quoting Gman94 (reply 32):
I can inform myself of the issues and make my own mind up thank you without needing to pick up a tabloid newspaper.


I'm glad to hear it ! So where did you get the Federal Superstate notion from ? I have never heard it proposed by any serious politician.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
GDB
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RE: Should The UK Leave The EU?

Sat Feb 26, 2005 2:08 am

All this stuff about referendums is so lame, we are a Parliamentary Democracy, we shouldn't have referendums, until such changes are made to our system to allow them in the normal course of events.
We had one on EU membership in 1975 for one reason only, the then Labour government of Harold Wilson was split down the middle (much like the Tories 20 years later), the referendum was Wilson's escape clause, nothing else.
Who was against EU (Common Market as it was then) in 1975?
Basically the far left and the far right.

Now for people to moan that the organization has changed, evolved, since then, well it would, strong alliances evolve, anything else is stagnation.

This will sound terribly stuck up, but the fact is that while people believe all the crap in the tabloids about the EU, the UK electorate is in no fit state to vote on it in a referendum.
Most of the EU stories in UK tabloids have been shown time and time again to be either made up (mostly) or hugely exaggerated.
Yet through repetition, many of these myths have taken root.

We often sneer at all the anti French nonsense in the US these last few years, but are we really in any position to feel superior while equal amounts of crap have been served up day in, day out, for over 20 years in our arrogant tabloid media?
You can laugh at Joe Sixpack in the US thinking Bin Laden and the 'Eye-rar-keys' were bosom buddies because Dick Cheney and Fox News said so, but what about 'White Van Man' here believing Rupert Murdoch, The Daily Mail and Kilroy-Silk's rants about straight bananas and all the rest.

As for a closer link to the US, we are already big investors over there, (the UK and Netherlands being the two biggest EU investors in the US), we do have close military and other security links, a result of how WW2 played out largely.
But the 'Special Relationship' is only really apparent from a UK perspective.

We are a pretty big fish in the EU, as pointed out we could have been even bigger, we will always be a minnow compared to the US.
THough it may not be politically expedient for Chirac to say so in public, I bet he is pleased that the UK, to a degree, can be a bridge between the US and EU.
He's too wily a politician not to see an advantage to this, over the long term.

On the economic front, we should not let the experience of the ERM debacle in 1992 fool us, that had everything to do with power struggles and incompetence in the late Thatcher/early John Major periods, many other members thought the UK had gone in at the wrong time and not in the right economic conditions.
But that event is what caused the Tory drift to being a broadly anti Europe party, why should the UK's long term well being be sacrificed just because some political party fouled up so badly, they are not likely to be in power for 10-20 years.

Should we be in the EU, or some expanded NAFTA?
Take a look at the map.
 
B747forlife
Posts: 386
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RE: Should The UK Leave The EU?

Sat Feb 26, 2005 2:10 am

I've noticed that no one has mentioned a main reason why the UK might not have the EU influence as Germany and France. It is because France (in particular Charles De Gaulle) did not want them to. That's right, De Gaulle basically said that while he was alive the UK would never be allowed into the EC. And for the 10 years or so before the UK's entrance that the EC was in existence the UK was not allowed in. I believe it was about a year after De Gaulle's death that the UK was allowed in. In my opinion, it is De Gaulle's anger with UK that has made the EU predominantly French led, and if you look at the EU and its policies you can see France all over it and them. While I do not know if this lack of early UK influence exists today, the early years of the EC might explain its lack of influence.

-Nick
 
Gman94
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RE: Should The UK Leave The EU?

Sat Feb 26, 2005 2:12 am

Quoting JGPH1A (reply 34):
I'm glad to hear it ! So where did you get the Federal Superstate notion from ? I have never heard it proposed by any serious politician.


So what is the ultimate goal of the European Union then, look at the facts and the way the EU is going, no politician has said that is their intent but it seems clear to me what road it is going to head down, if that's not where it's heading then it seems like a lot of effort for nothing.
British Airways - The Way To Fly
 
travelin man
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RE: Should The UK Leave The EU?

Sat Feb 26, 2005 2:16 am

I love how this initial question had to add the US in at the end as flame-bait. As if having a close relationship with the US and being in the EU is an either/or proposition. Whatever, flame away.
 
ushermittwoch
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RE: Should The UK Leave The EU?

Sat Feb 26, 2005 2:18 am

Quoting Gman94 (reply 19):
If the EU is a organisation that does have power over us then I don't want to us to be in it. I want deceicions affecting me taken by my government in the interest of Britain.


Well the British government has taken action in its own interest. Take Iraq as the prime example of recent times. The "evil powers" France ander Germany didn't go. The Brits did. So the British government was sticking up for itself. They didn't force the Euro on the people, although it would have been in Britain's interest to do so.
And if you want to live in an isolationist state, well maybe you should ask your friends in the US for a Green Card...
Where have all the tri-jets gone...
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Should The UK Leave The EU?

Sat Feb 26, 2005 2:19 am

Quoting Gman94 (reply 37):
So what is the ultimate goal of the European Union then, look at the facts and the way the EU is going, no politician has said that is their intent but it seems clear to me what road it is going to head down, if that's not where it's heading then it seems like a lot of effort for nothing.


The aim to me seems to be a closer union of sovereign states with common standards of human rights, a common trading area, freedom of movement of goods and people, and closer security cooperation. All very sensible to me. These things do not a superstate make, with our without a constitution.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
gkirk
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RE: Should The UK Leave The EU?

Sat Feb 26, 2005 2:29 am

Quoting Travelin man (reply 38):
I love how this initial question had to add the US in at the end as flame-bait.


Believe me, it wasn't intended that way, but too late to change it now...
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
ushermittwoch
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RE: Should The UK Leave The EU?

Sat Feb 26, 2005 2:33 am

Quoting B747forlife (reply 36):
I believe it was about a year after De Gaulle's death that the UK was allowed in. In my opinion, it is De Gaulle's anger with UK that has made the EU predominantly French led, and if you look at the EU and its policies you can see France all over it and them


Wow! The biggest heap of crap I have read all day.
Where have you learned of this French domination?
Sean Hannity's website?

Quoting Travelin man (reply 38):
I love how this initial question had to add the US in at the end as flame-bait. As if having a close relationship with the US and being in the EU is an either/or proposition. Whatever, flame away.


Cry me a river.
If the Brits were to exit the EU, where else would they go? Become allies with North Korea? No, they would suck up to the US even more. Fact of life, end of story.
Where have all the tri-jets gone...
 
travelin man
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RE: Should The UK Leave The EU?

Sat Feb 26, 2005 2:38 am

Judging by the snide comments regarding the US, that's how it was taken.

Quoting Ushermittwoch (reply 39):
And if you want to live in an isolationist state, well maybe you should ask your friends in the US for a Green Card...


Quoting Ushermittwoch (reply 24):
And if you think sucking up to the US is better than being on good terms with neighbors that acutally want to make the environment you live in or next to better, then you must be either blind or dumb and at best very naive.


Quoting Klaus (reply 22):
You should have learned by now that appeasement to US interests is entirely inconsequential to actual US policy -


That's OK, though. The EU stands for moral principles like selling arms to China. (hey, why not play the flamebait game)
 
ushermittwoch
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RE: Should The UK Leave The EU?

Sat Feb 26, 2005 2:42 am

Well, since the US is also a major trading partner, I don't see where that is immoral. If you talk about human rights violations in China, look in the mirror and applaude yourself for looking away what YOUR OWN governemnt does. I can't remember any country, while being a member in the EU ever kidnapping people and keeping them hostage like you do in Gitmo.
Where have all the tri-jets gone...
 
travelin man
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RE: Should The UK Leave The EU?

Sat Feb 26, 2005 2:46 am

Quoting Ushermittwoch (reply 44):
Well, since the US is also a major trading partner, I don't see where that is immoral. If you talk about human rights violations in China, look in the mirror and applaude yourself for looking away what YOUR OWN governemnt does. I can't remember any country, while being a member in the EU ever kidnapping people and keeping them hostage like you do in Gitmo.


Heh. Flame bait works every time.
 
ushermittwoch
Posts: 2530
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RE: Should The UK Leave The EU?

Sat Feb 26, 2005 3:14 am

Quoting Travelin man (reply 45):
Heh. Flame bait works every time.



If you consider your posts as such, yes.
Where have all the tri-jets gone...
 
Gman94
Posts: 1167
Joined: Fri May 28, 2004 2:56 am

RE: Should The UK Leave The EU?

Sat Feb 26, 2005 3:21 am

Quoting Ushermittwoch (reply 42):
Cry me a river.
If the Brits were to exit the EU, where else would they go? Become allies with North Korea? No, they would suck up to the US even more. Fact of life, end of story.


We don't need to go anywhere we can stand on our own two feet, we don't need to pick sides one way or the other we can be allies with both but de not need to be politcally controlled by either.

Quoting JGPH1A (reply 40):
The aim to me seems to be a closer union of sovereign states with common standards of human rights, a common trading area, freedom of movement of goods and people, and closer security cooperation. All very sensible to me. These things do not a superstate make, with our without a constitution.


Yep that's my vision of Europe as well, unforunately it goes even further down the road with things like a single European currency, a European consitution and having to be a counter balance on the power of the US.

[Edited 2005-02-25 19:22:53]
British Airways - The Way To Fly
 
GDB
Posts: 12652
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

RE: Should The UK Leave The EU?

Sat Feb 26, 2005 3:39 am

Travelin man is correct, CDG did veto UK membership all through the 60's, the bitter, ungrateful old git that he was.
He was totally paranoid about imagined 'Anglo Saxon plots', deep down, he hated the British.
(He may have been an OK war leader in exile, but even then he was often a destructive force saved from being frozen out only by Churchill, the fact remains he carried on being a destructive force, through the mid/late 60's with HIS isolationism, which did France no good at all).

France, with Germany, were of course leading lights in the Common Market, but France was on it's feet as a nation much sooner than Germany, France had been damaged and occupied, Germany had been split, destroyed and occupied after WW2, so you'd expect France to have a big influence in the early years.

France is a much older nation state than Germany, they would probably have the greater influence in drawing up the Common Market.
 
Ready4Pushback
Posts: 355
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RE: Should The UK Leave The EU?

Sat Feb 26, 2005 4:07 am

I'm not entirely sure what the age of the state has to do with it?

Anyway - there does seem to be quite a lot of anti-British feeling amongst the French. I say that cautiously, because I don't mean to offend anyone, or accuse the French of being anti-British, but I have heard stories, put it that way.

Anyway, I'd like to know if it's true and if so why? If it is not so, why does the Entente Cordiale exist?

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