L.1011
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Children's Freedom Of Religion?

Fri Mar 04, 2005 10:41 am

After hearing stories of children dying because their parents were Christian Science and their silly belief against modern medicine prevented them from being treated for leukemia or whatever, I must pose a question. Do you feel children do or should have a legal basis to refuse and rebel against the religious beliefs of their parents? For example, getting an injunction to recieve medical treatment against their parents wishes? Should there be a cutoff age here? Should other family members have the right to act on the behalf a child too young to realize what is going on? Do children have the right to abandon the religious beliefs their parents raised them with? If so, is there a cutoff age? What are your thoughts on the rights of parents and children related to religion?
 
JetService
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RE: Children's Freedom Of Religion?

Fri Mar 04, 2005 10:49 am

I think using the wackos that let their kids die with no treatment completely skews the question you pose. Its almost like comparing the question of kids rebelling against a healthy diet vs. rebeling against being neglected and malnourished. One is no, one is yes.
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Airlinerfreak
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RE: Children's Freedom Of Religion?

Fri Mar 04, 2005 10:54 am

Personally I do not think children should be born into a religion. I think they should be able to choose at a later age. But I do not think they should be punished nor should adults. But unfortunatly, the world would be no fun if everyone was treated the same and was the same.
 
Newark777
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RE: Children's Freedom Of Religion?

Fri Mar 04, 2005 11:06 am

Quoting Airlinerfreak (reply 2):
Personally I do not think children should be born into a religion. I think they should be able to choose at a later age.


Sounds fun. Just like going shopping.  sarcastic 

Why in the world does the government have to get involved in this, and probably screw it up somehow? Stay out of family life and don't legislate what choices parents can make for their children. I'm sick of people going off on anything religious as a violation of separation of church and state, and then suggesting interfering with how families practice their own religion. If a child is being harmed, such as the above case, appropriate legal action should be followed, but because of the well being of the child, not the religious reason for it.

Harry
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L.1011
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RE: Children's Freedom Of Religion?

Fri Mar 04, 2005 11:46 am

Quoting JetService (reply 1):
I think using the wackos that let their kids die with no treatment completely skews the question you pose.


And yet their "right" to impose their religious beliefs on their children still stands.

Quoting Airlinerfreak (reply 2):
Personally I do not think children should be born into a religion. I think they should be able to choose at a later age.


I personally find that's a little extreme. But I feel that the current situation is excessively biased. I was born and raised Roman Catholic. A few years ago, I realized I found most of their beliefs ridiculous and abandoned it for Deism. My mom (who is the Catholic) isn't too happy. My dad (who is technically Lutheran but really doesn't give a crap; I'd call him an Agnostic) didn't really care. For a couple years, before I decided to tell my parents, I struggled with feelings of guilt and fear from the indoctrination and dogma of a religion I didn't believe in. All because my mom decided, without having a clue of my personal beliefs, what my beliefs would be. I love my mom, but she and other parents are wrong on this.

Quoting Newark777 (reply 3):
Stay out of family life and don't legislate what choices parents can make for their children.


Quoting Newark777 (reply 3):
and then suggesting interfering with how families practice their own religion.


Why should parents be able to make decisions for their children? You're a Republican, you should be an advocate of personal freedom. The fact is that parents forcing children to maintain a certain religious belief and telling them that everyone who isn't a member of religion xyz is wrong, is not personal freedom. Although it is not a ban on an act, is the subconcious coercion against an act.

Quoting Newark777 (reply 3):
I'm sick of people going off on anything religious as a violation of separation of church and state,


Who said that?
 
Newark777
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RE: Children's Freedom Of Religion?

Fri Mar 04, 2005 11:51 am

Quoting L.1011 (reply 4):
Why should parents be able to make decisions for their children?


Because they are the parents, and the kids are free to make up their own mind when they are adults. I'm a pretty strong Catholic, and education about religion begins at a fairly young age. Wait for them to be adults, and you miss most of the sacraments and almost twenty years of their lives. It is the responsibility of the parents to make decisions that are in the best interest of their children, and if that means practicing religion, so be it.


Quoting L.1011 (reply 4):
Who said that?


Not you or anyone else in this thread. I was saying it in a general sense, regarding many issues in the news in the recent past.

Harry
Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
 
sprout5199
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RE: Children's Freedom Of Religion?

Fri Mar 04, 2005 11:55 am

Religion is fine to a point. When a child may die then it is child abuse. Would anybody let me beat my child becuase it is part of my religious beliefs? So why should we as a nation look the other way because of religion?


Dan in Jupiter
 
Newark777
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RE: Children's Freedom Of Religion?

Fri Mar 04, 2005 11:59 am

Quoting Sprout5199 (reply 6):
When a child may die then it is child abuse. Would anybody let me beat my child becuase it is part of my religious beliefs? So why should we as a nation look the other way because of religion?


We shouldn't, and I don't think we have. Most of these cases have resulted in the children going to relatives or foster care, and the parents going to jail, where they belong. There is a difference between making your kids going to church every week and starving them. The line is crossed when the well being over the child is threatened in any way, and this is when the authorities should step in and stop what is going on.

Harry
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ltbewr
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RE: Children's Freedom Of Religion?

Fri Mar 04, 2005 12:11 pm

There has been numerous cases in the USA of conflicts with medical needs of the minor children of Christ. Scientists, other such religious groups and naturalist nutcases. In some cases, the doctors took the responsibilty from the parents in fear of legal liability if they died. Such doctors are caught in a tough place as the parents have control, but so too does the government if the parents will not be responsible for their child.
 
SLC1
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RE: Children's Freedom Of Religion?

Fri Mar 04, 2005 12:21 pm

I think it is just fine for parents to have their children follow certain religious beliefs, because, well, what are you going to do? I just think it is important that children also learn at an age appropriate level what belief systems exist outside their religion and there are alternative means of thought. I was raised mormon, by mormon parents, and never felt mormonism, or religion in general was for me, however I wonder if I had never been exposed to anything else (as many mormons aren't) if I would still be mormon, nah on second thought, I wouldn't be.

Edit: thought

[Edited 2005-03-04 04:41:16]
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UAL747
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RE: Children's Freedom Of Religion?

Fri Mar 04, 2005 12:28 pm

Children have no freedom of relgion. They are not cognitively capable of understanding even some of the most fundamental facets of organized religious philosophy. Even during adolescence and early adulthood, they truly lack the abilites to analyze, question, and formulate "faith".

Once, in Church, our pastor said, "As parents, it is your duty to make sure that your children get to heaven." That mentality causes children to be the products of their parents beliefs, accepting what is said blindly.

UAL
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JGPH1A
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RE: Children's Freedom Of Religion?

Fri Mar 04, 2005 6:22 pm

Quoting L.1011 (reply 0):
For example, getting an injunction to recieve medical treatment against their parents wishes?


Simple answer - Child Endangerment legislation. Any parent denying reasonable medical treatment to their child should be locked up and have the child taken into care.

Of course in countries without socialised medicine, the issue of money comes into it, which makes it more difficult. But deliberately denying available medical care to a sick child needs to be a crime.
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solnabo
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RE: Children's Freedom Of Religion?

Fri Mar 04, 2005 6:36 pm

Why are americans so obsessed w religious questions? Is it ´cuz US is a melting pot of religions?
I´m curius to know. Personly I have no identity crise w religion: I dont belive in it!!

Thx!

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aerorobnz
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RE: Children's Freedom Of Religion?

Fri Mar 04, 2005 7:23 pm

Quoting JGPH1A (reply 11):

Simple answer - Child Endangerment legislation. Any parent denying reasonable medical treatment to their child should be locked up and have the child taken into care.

Absolutely. To do this is easily as equally undesirable as Abortion, yet this is ok but Abortion is not in the eyes of these few.

Quoting UAL747 (reply 10):
Children have no freedom of relgion. They are not cognitively capable of understanding even some of the most fundamental facets of organized religious philosophy.".

Totally Correct, which is why If the consequences of witholding due care on a minor will cause death/severe disability, their parent's power of attorney should be automatically overriden by medical professionals and the parents charged with abuse/neglect/attempted murder/assisting suicide etc. If as an adult you want to die rather than have a tranfusion or whatever that's fine, it's your decision to make but to refuse your child adequate healthcare because of your religious beliefs is no better than a Fundamentalist Muslim parent that wants to blow their child up as a martyr for their faith.
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gkirk
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RE: Children's Freedom Of Religion?

Fri Mar 04, 2005 9:47 pm

Religion is the true form of hatred/terrorism in the world. Somebody that won't let their sick child get treated purely because of their religious ways, are truly sick minded and should never have become a parent in the beginning
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L.1011
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RE: Children's Freedom Of Religion?

Fri Mar 04, 2005 10:02 pm

Quoting Solnabo (reply 12):
Why are americans so obsessed w religious questions? Is it ´cuz US is a melting pot of religions?
I´m curius to know. Personly I have no identity crise w religion: I dont belive in it!!


I'd say that indeed it would be our religious diversity. Even though America is technically 75% or so Christian, we're 25% Catholic and 50% Protestant, and rather than one Protestant group, there are dozens, with no one dominant group. Many of those people don't believe anything close to the full slate of their religion's beliefs. Then there are about 10% of people who are Atheists, or part of one of the Freethinking religions. Then you have the Jewish and Muslim groups. Buddhism is growing, and just about every religious group in the world is represented in the United States.
 
JetService
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RE: Children's Freedom Of Religion?

Fri Mar 04, 2005 11:02 pm

Quoting Gkirk (reply 14):
Religion is the true form of hatred/terrorism in the world.


I disagree. I'd say politics is.



Quoting Gkirk (reply 14):
Somebody that won't let their sick child get treated purely because of their religious ways, are truly sick minded and should never have become a parent in the beginning


If you ask me, denying medical care for your child for any reason is pretty sick.
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gkirk
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RE: Children's Freedom Of Religion?

Fri Mar 04, 2005 11:03 pm

JetService, you make good points. But IMO, religion is worse than politics
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air2gxs
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RE: Children's Freedom Of Religion?

Fri Mar 04, 2005 11:30 pm

I grew up Greek Orthodox. I knew of no other religion until I was about 6 and went to the hospital for an injury. I was asked my religion and my father answered for me after a blank stare from me.

Later that day, my father sat with me and explained that there are multiple religions, all believing different things. Some are very similar and some are very different. He told me that soon, I would start thinking about religion and eventually may choose to go away from our Church. But, it was my choice.

That's how we're raising our daughter. She is being raised as a Roman Catholic, but will be exposed to other religions as she gets older. She will learn of Christianity, Islam, Judaism and any other religion she wants to learn about. Of course, we will stress Christianity, but the decision will be her's, when she reaches the appropiate age.

We're trying to raise a rational person who can contribute to society in ways other than just paying taxes and existing. We want her to think for herself and make decisions for herself, not take our biases as her own.

But, make no mistake, until she is old enough to take the information, process it, and come up with a decision, she is subject to our rules and lifestyle. We have chosen Roman Catholisim, and she is being raised as such. We are conservatives, and she is being raised as such. We are hard working, and she is being raised to appreciate and understand work ethic. We are compassionate, and she is being raised with compassion. so she can learn to be compassionate. But, when she's older she can change.
 
TACAA320
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RE: Children's Freedom Of Religion?

Sat Mar 05, 2005 12:06 am

Quoting L.1011 (reply 0):
After hearing stories of children dying because their parents were Christian Science and their silly belief against modern medicine prevented them from being treated for leukemia or whatever, I must pose a question. Do you feel children do or should have a legal basis to refuse and rebel against the religious beliefs of their parents?



I think that there is something wrong. One thing is the right to "choose a religion", that I personally think belongs to adults only[when you get your majority, 18, 21] and the right to live or to have full access to "health and medical services" that belong to every single person.

You may raise a child as a Baptist, Lutheran, Muslin... and when he/she grow up, he/she will take his/her own decision about religion.

I see the same problem with the Jehova's Witnesses, that don't allow any blood transfusion, no matter if they are minors or adults.
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
csavel
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RE: Children's Freedom Of Religion?

Sat Mar 05, 2005 3:21 am

I think the rule should be
"Does the parents' religious beliefs mean a permanent change in the child that canot be changed back when the child is of age."

I mean the parents could be Bible Belters but the kid could grow up and rebel. or vice versa. You could force a kid to go to church every Sunday but if he doesn't want to as an adult, well that's that. But if the parents refuse medical treatment because of their religious beliefs and the kid dies, well the line is crossed. The child is harmed permanantly (obviously) and no amount of rebellion is going to change that.

PS at the risk of starting a flame war, I must say as a nice Jewish boy that circumcions is one of the things that would be prohibited. If a kid wants to make is winkie kosher when he is of age, go right ahead, but since even a rebel can't undo the loss of his foreskin, it should be illegal. And let's not even get into female genital mutilation.
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duke
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RE: Children's Freedom Of Religion?

Sun Mar 06, 2005 12:23 am

I think it's ridiculous to say that someone can't understand religion before they're 18. I was an atheist until 12, then started to believe in Orthodox Christianity OF MY OWN FREE WILL. I am still an Orthodox Christian today at 25.
 
TACAA320
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RE: Children's Freedom Of Religion?

Sun Mar 06, 2005 3:03 am

Quoting Duke (reply 21):
I think it's ridiculous to say that someone can't understand religion before they're 18.




Is not ridiculous, is not the average.
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
USAFHummer
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RE: Children's Freedom Of Religion?

Sun Mar 06, 2005 3:29 am

Quoting Duke (reply 21):
I think it's ridiculous to say that someone can't understand religion before they're 18.


I agree totally, having undergone a switch from Judaism to atheism during my childhood...

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TACAA320
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RE: Children's Freedom Of Religion?

Sun Mar 06, 2005 6:13 am

We must consider some aspects, before giving a general rule [not specific ones among hundreds].

http://rac.org/Articles/index.cfm?id=894&pge_prg_id=4368
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
TACAA320
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RE: Children's Freedom Of Religion?

Sun Mar 06, 2005 6:25 am

Such right is shared with the parents. And as I said, I'm not talking about an specific case but in general.

http://www.savethechildren.ca/en/whoweare/whounrights.html [see article 14].

[Edited 2005-03-05 22:32:51]
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
L.1011
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RE: Children's Freedom Of Religion?

Sun Mar 06, 2005 6:39 am

Quoting TACAA320 (reply 19):
One thing is the right to "choose a religion", that I personally think belongs to adults only


Why? Is switching religions going to impair their development as drinking would at an early age? Are they going to kill somebody with their new religion like they would with a car?

Quoting Duke (reply 21):
I think it's ridiculous to say that someone can't understand religion before they're 18.


Exactly right. Church attendance in my town has dwindled among teens. The vast majority of people entering the church are older people, Baby Boomers, and small children from those groups. People between around 14 and 40 are just not there. And considering the fact that church attendance is shrinking, it's pretty clear that the younger generations are not signing on. Especially teenagers.


From TACA's link in reply 24:

We have had cases in which a child, a year before Bar Mitzvah, was told by the custodial parent that they would no longer be Jewish and henceforth would be a member of another religion. We have had situations like the Kendall case, where a joint or non- custodial parent tries to tell the child that the religious upbringing provided by the custodial parent is harmful or wrong and attempts to convert the child to another religion. All the variants of these situations place the children in untenable situations in relation to their parents, arguably violate the religious rights of the child, and too often leave lasting psychological scars. When, as in this case, a parent tries to convert his Jewish children to another religion and tells them they will burn in hell for practicing Judaism as a religion, the courts have a compelling reason to limit the offending parent's rights to religiously indoctrinate their children.

And all of that would be avoided if the parents hadn't indoctrinated the child in the first place.
 
L.1011
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RE: Children's Freedom Of Religion?

Sun Mar 06, 2005 7:02 am

TACA's link is (I presume) based on the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child.

Article 14:

1. States Parties shall respect the right of the child to freedom of thought, conscience and religion.
2. States Parties shall respect the rights and duties of the parents and, when applicable, legal guardians, to provide direction to the child in the exercise of his or her right in a manner consistent with the evolving capacities of the child.
3. Freedom to manifest one's religion or beliefs may be subject only to such limitations as are prescribed by law and are necessary to protect public safety, order, health or morals, or the fundamental rights and freedoms of others.

Article 30:

In those States in which ethnic, religious or linguistic minorities or persons of indigenous origin exist, a child belonging to such a minority or who is indigenous shall not be denied the right, in community with other members of his or her group, to enjoy his or her own culture, to profess and practise his or her own religion, or to use his or her own language.

Notice that parents are only to provide direction to a child. No mention is made of deciding the child's beliefs. Children are guaranteed religious freedom in all party states. All states worldwide have ratified with the exception of the United States of America and Somalia. Somalia has not ratified because there is no government to do so. The United States has not signed because of the child death penalty issue. With that now banned, I'd expect the United States to ratify shortly.

Irregardless of being party to the Convention, children in the United States are guaranteed religious freedom anyway.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof

First Amendment, Constitution of the United States of America

No law has been passed prohibiting the free exercise of religion. Thus, children have the right to freely exercise whatever religion they choose.

The Draft Constitution of the Republic of Somalia (I don't know if this is an official document or not, but it seems rather professional)

Article 2.6: The Republic of Somalia is a secular state that guarantees complete freedom of religion and religious beliefs for all of its Citizens and other Residents.

Article 2.1: The Somali People are defined to include all members of the Somali clan structure as well as other indigenous groups who have traditionally lived together with the Somali clans.

Article 2.2: The Citizens of the Republic of Somalia are defined to be all Somali People living mainly on the territory of the Republic of Somalia. All Citizens who are 18 years of age or older are eligible for voting.

Article 2.3: The Residents of the Republic of Somalia are defined to be all people currently residing in the Republic of Somalia, independent of whether they are Somali People or not and whether they are Citizens or not. The Legislative Branch of the Government may enact Laws controlling permission for non-Citizens to enter and/or reside in the Republic of Somalia as well as to become naturalized Citizens of the Republic of Somalia.

Thusly, anyone who lives in Somalia is guaranteed religious freedom by that Constitution.
 
TACAA320
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RE: Children's Freedom Of Religion?

Sun Mar 06, 2005 7:21 am

Quoting L.1011 (reply 26):
Why? Is switching religions going to impair their development as drinking would at an early age? Are they going to kill somebody with their new religion like they would with a car?


Because parents most of the time [not always] want the best for their children. They're simply older and wiser [not always again].
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
L.1011
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RE: Children's Freedom Of Religion?

Sun Mar 06, 2005 7:35 am

Quoting TACAA320 (reply 28):
Because parents most of the time [not always] want the best for their children. They're simply older and wiser [not always again].


And how is following one religion or another "what's best"?
 
SLC1
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RE: Children's Freedom Of Religion?

Sun Mar 06, 2005 7:36 am

Quoting Gkirk (reply 14):
Religion is the true form of hatred/terrorism in the world. Somebody that won't let their sick child get treated purely because of their religious ways, are truly sick minded and should never have become a parent in the beginning


Well, in that case, it's not religion it's a cult that endangers children that should be illegal.

Quoting Gkirk (reply 17):
JetService, you make good points. But IMO, religion is worse than politics


Well, it certainly can be, God and Hell are pretty good motivators.
We're gonna do what we like to call a "jetBlue how do you do", which is slang for dumping a bunch of fuel in the ocean
 
Newark777
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RE: Children's Freedom Of Religion?

Sun Mar 06, 2005 7:37 am

Quoting L.1011 (reply 29):
And how is following one religion or another "what's best"?


That's for the parent to decide, not you.

Harry
Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
 
L.1011
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RE: Children's Freedom Of Religion?

Sun Mar 06, 2005 9:02 am

Quoting Newark777 (reply 31):
That's for the parent to decide, not you.


Why....
 
TACAA320
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RE: Children's Freedom Of Religion?

Sun Mar 06, 2005 11:32 am

Quoting Newark777 (reply 31):
That's for the parent to decide, not you.


Quoting L.1011 (reply 32):
Why....



Catholic parents decide to baptize their children[1]. Jews circumcises them[2]. And on and on. And they can ask later to get rid of the sacrament[1] because I don't want to be Catholic, or I want my fo--skin back[2] because I don't want to be Jew.

That, among some other things, make me emphasize that this is a right SHARED by the parents or guardians. Until they are "capable" to determine, by themselves, what is best.
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
TACAA320
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RE: Children's Freedom Of Religion?

Sun Mar 06, 2005 1:19 pm

Quoting TACAA320 (reply 33):
And they can ask later to get rid of the sacrament[1] because I don't want to be Catholic, or I want my fo--skin back[2] because I don't want to be Jew.



Pls. read "can't" instead of "can".

Sorry for the error.
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
Newark777
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RE: Children's Freedom Of Religion?

Sun Mar 06, 2005 1:39 pm

So are you saying parents shouldn't baptize or circumcise, or the opposite?

Harry
Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
 
TACAA320
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RE: Children's Freedom Of Religion?

Sun Mar 06, 2005 2:05 pm

Harry,

What I am saying is that parents take such decisions [religious decision on behalf of their children], to support my thesis that the Children's right of religion IS a shared right, during their infancy. In an other words, until they are able to know about what a religion is, its moral principles, etc..
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein

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