Horus
Topic Author
Posts: 5131
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2004 1:04 am

Mayor Of London's View On Israel And Sharon

Sat Mar 05, 2005 4:54 am

The Mayor of London, Mr Ken Livingston, today launched a critique of Israel published in The Guardian (a well respected British newspaper).


The following extract makes interesting read:

...Relations with the board (Greater London Council) took a dramatic turn for the worse when I opposed Israel's illegal invasion of Lebanon, culminating in the massacres at the Palestinian camps of Sabra and Shatila. The board also opposed my involvement in the successful campaign in 1982 to convince the Labour party to recognise the PLO as the legitimate voice of the Palestinian people.

The fundamental issue on which we differ, as Henry Grunwald (president of the Board of Deputies of British Jews) knows, is not anti-semitism - which my administration has fought tooth and nail - but the policies of successive Israeli governments.

To avoid manufactured misunderstandings, the policies of Israeli governments are not analogous to Nazism. They do not aim at the systematic extermination of the Palestinian people, in the way Nazism sought the annihilation of the Jews.

Israel's expansion has included ethnic cleansing. Palestinians who had lived in that land for centuries were driven out by systematic violence and terror aimed at ethnically cleansing what became a large part of the Israeli state. The methods of groups like the Irgun and the Stern gang were the same as those of the Bosnian Serb leader Karadzic: to drive out people by terror.

Today the Israeli government continues seizures of Palestinian land for settlements, military incursions into surrounding countries and denial of the right of Palestinians expelled by terror to return. Ariel Sharon, Israel's prime minister, is a war criminal who should be in prison, not in office. Israel's own Kahan commission found that Sharon shared responsibility for the Sabra and Shatila massacres.

Sharon continues to organise terror. More than three times as many Palestinians as Israelis have been killed in the present conflict. There are more than 7,000 Palestinians in Israel's jails.

To obscure these truths, those around Israel's present government have resorted to demonisation. Initial targets were Palestinians, and have now become Muslims. Take the Middle East Media Research Institute, run by a former colonel in Israeli military intelligence, which poses as a source of objective information but in reality selectively translates material from Arabic and presents Muslims and Arabs in the worst possible light.

Today the Israeli government is helping to promote a wholly distorted picture of racism and religious discrimination in Europe, implying that the most serious upsurge of hatred and discrimination is against Jews.

All racist and anti-semitic attacks must be stamped out. However, the reality is that the great bulk of racist attacks in Europe today are on black people, Asians and Muslims - and they are the primary targets of the extreme right. For 20 years Israeli governments have attempted to portray anyone who forcefully criticises the policies of Israel as anti-semitic. The truth is the opposite: the same universal human values that recognise the Holocaust as the greatest racist crime of the 20th century require condemnation of the policies of successive Israeli governments - not on the absurd grounds that they are Nazi or equivalent to the Holocaust, but because ethnic cleansing, discrimination and terror are immoral.

They are also fuelling anger and violence across the world. For a mayor of London not to speak out against such injustice would not only be wrong - but would also ignore the threat it poses to the security of all Londoners.

-Ken Livingstone is the London mayor



You can read the whole article here titled "This is about Israel, not anti-semitism":
http://politics.guardian.co.uk/gla/c...t/0,9236,1430185,00.html?gusrc=rss



Horus

[Edited 2005-03-04 21:17:17]
EGYPT: A 7,000 Year Old Civilisation
 
N5176Y
Posts: 309
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2005 10:39 am

RE: Mayor Of London's View On Israel And Sharon

Sat Mar 05, 2005 4:59 am

Since when has The Guardian been well respected?
 
Horus
Topic Author
Posts: 5131
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2004 1:04 am

RE: Mayor Of London's View On Israel And Sharon

Sat Mar 05, 2005 5:11 am

Quoting N5176Y (reply 1):
Since when has The Guardian been well respected?


http://www.onlinepublishingnews.com/htm/n20030312.235546.htm

"The January data shows that the Guardian and the ABC are well-respected sources of information not just for local or national news but also for global news. Both the Guardian and the ABC are the top news domain in their home countries as well as being global destinations. Their audience numbers are impressive even when compared to well-known global news sources like CNN, which drew 95 per cent of its audience from the Americas in January, and the BBC, which drew 68 per cent of its audience from Europe and 29 per cent of its audience from the Americas that month."


Horus
EGYPT: A 7,000 Year Old Civilisation
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 5439
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

RE: Mayor Of London's View On Israel And Sharon

Sat Mar 05, 2005 5:19 am

Since when should we care what this clown thinks??? They don't call him Red Ken for no reason.

[Edited 2005-03-04 21:20:03]
 
Horus
Topic Author
Posts: 5131
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2004 1:04 am

RE: Mayor Of London's View On Israel And Sharon

Sat Mar 05, 2005 8:40 am

L410Turbolet, his last comment sums it all up...

"For a mayor of London not to speak out against such injustice would not only be wrong - but would also ignore the threat it poses to the security of all Londoners."

Horus
EGYPT: A 7,000 Year Old Civilisation
 
BA
Posts: 10134
Joined: Fri May 19, 2000 11:06 am

RE: Mayor Of London's View On Israel And Sharon

Sat Mar 05, 2005 8:47 am

Nice article Horus. Thanks for sharing.
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
pelican
Posts: 2429
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 9:51 pm

RE: Mayor Of London's View On Israel And Sharon

Sat Mar 05, 2005 8:54 am

Quoting Horus (reply 4):

"For a mayor of London not to speak out against such injustice would not only be wrong - but would also ignore the threat it poses to the security of all Londoners."


Yeah I'm sure Sharon cares about what the mayor of London is thinking. This article will have a big impact on the security of London and of course of the Middle East sarcastic 

L410Turbolet:
You hit the nail on the head.

pelican
 
yukimizake
Posts: 506
Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2004 10:20 am

RE: Mayor Of London's View On Israel And Sharon

Sat Mar 05, 2005 8:57 am

Does anyone, other than Londoners, actually give a sh*t what this chump says?
'Opfer müssen gebracht werden (Sacrifices must be made)' - Otto Lilienthal
 
Horus
Topic Author
Posts: 5131
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2004 1:04 am

RE: Mayor Of London's View On Israel And Sharon

Sat Mar 05, 2005 9:18 am

BA, no problem

Yukimizake, Pelican, no matter what your views are about the guy he raises very valid points and issues regarding this on-going conflict and he highlights Israeli terrorism which is usually, if not always, brushed aside.

Horus
EGYPT: A 7,000 Year Old Civilisation
 
damirc
Posts: 726
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2004 8:43 am

RE: Mayor Of London's View On Israel And Sharon

Sat Mar 05, 2005 9:36 am

Pelican - no matter if Sharon cares or not ...

If people start speaking up and questioning Israel's policies - then these said policies may change in the future ... but as long as the world just watches silently - Israel has the carte blanche to do what it pleases.

Actually, from my viewpoint the situation is improving ... And Israel stopped the peace process because of the suicide attack in Tel Aviv that killed 4 and injured 50 people ... from Febuary 1st, 2005, at least according to my information, 15 Palestinians (6 in Gaza, 3 in Nablus, 2 in Ramallah and 1 each in Jenin, Tulkarem, Qalqilia and Hebron) were killed and 52 were injured by the IDF - but who keeps counting - right? But I didn't hear Abbas stop the peace process.

Israel needs to change it's ways. I know. Flame me now. But I'll stand to what I said.

D.
 
damirc
Posts: 726
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2004 8:43 am

RE: Mayor Of London's View On Israel And Sharon

Sat Mar 05, 2005 9:38 am

One more thing that's been bugging me ....

Regarding the security fence currently built by Israel ... the improved version will now take away only 4% of Palestinian lands ... why doesn't Israel build the fence on their own soil and lose some of their soil if they want the fence built? Why do they have to perform more landgrab?

D.
 
rjpieces
Posts: 6849
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:58 am

RE: Mayor Of London's View On Israel And Sharon

Sat Mar 05, 2005 9:48 am

Regarding the security fence currently built by Israel ... the improved version will now take away only 4% of Palestinian lands ... why doesn't Israel build the fence on their own soil and lose some of their soil if they want the fence built? Why do they have to perform more landgrab?

It's all demographics. The new plan for the security fence takes about 5% of the West bank--In that 5% are 80% of the Jewish settlers living in the West Bank, and just 1% of the Palestinian West Bank population. So on the Palestinian side of the security fence are 99% of the Palestinian West Bank population, and about 20% of the Jewish settlers who will eventually/hopefully leave.

Does that sound so bad Damirc?
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
damirc
Posts: 726
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2004 8:43 am

RE: Mayor Of London's View On Israel And Sharon

Sat Mar 05, 2005 9:52 am

Yes, RJ - it does.

I want to build a house and you're my neighbour ... now since I want a round wall, I don't have enough space on my property I'll just claim some of yours ... does that sound fair?

And as far as I'm aware these settlers are there illegally. So it is in fact landgrab.

D.
 
CXA330300
Posts: 1258
Joined: Wed May 26, 2004 5:51 am

RE: Mayor Of London's View On Israel And Sharon

Sun Mar 06, 2005 6:21 am

The New York Times mentioned that the Israeli ambassador to the UK said that he was trying to distract attention from growing disapproval over his own job.
AC/AA/UA/DL/B6/WN/US*/CO*/FI/BA/IB/AF/SK/LX/Sabena*/TK/LY/SA/MN/SW/AM/CE*/CX/CA/MU/JL/SQ/TG/MH/KA/5J
 
backfire
Posts: 3467
Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2006 8:01 am

RE: Mayor Of London's View On Israel And Sharon

Sun Mar 06, 2005 6:52 am

It would make a refreshing change on A.net if the Arab members contributed some words on the positive things about Israel, and the normally pro-Israeli camps to explain some of the more negative things about Israel.

That would be much more interesting to read than the tiresome selective one-sided postings by people with their own private vendettas.

When the anti-Israeli types start thinking about what's good about Israel, and the Israel-can-do-no-wrong brigade starts admitting that their favourite little country isn't exactly a shining example of how to behave, then we might start getting somewhere. :-/
 
Horus
Topic Author
Posts: 5131
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2004 1:04 am

RE: Mayor Of London's View On Israel And Sharon

Sun Mar 06, 2005 7:39 am

Quoting Backfire (reply 14):
It would make a refreshing change on A.net if the Arab members contributed some words on the positive things about Israel, and the normally pro-Israeli camps to explain some of the more negative things about Israel.


I assume that comment was directed at me and if so let me just make a few points to clear up a few matters; first of all when you say, "the Arab members" let me remind you that I'm only 'half' an Arab and I'm also half English so stereotyping people into 'us' and 'them' doesn't work. Second if the Mayor of London, who is not in anyway effected by the Middle East situation speaks out against an injustice then he must be making a valid and important point and if you wish to ignore it then that's upto you but you can't stop others from highlighting it. Thirdly you say that Arab members should contribute with "positive things about Israel"...have you heard the expression 'give credit, where credit is due', just days after the peace summit in Sharm El Sheikh Israel continued killing Palestinians day after day and Palestinians kept their side of the bargain till the death toll reached 17 (including children), yet the world did not voice any criticism of Israel yet when the Palestinians retaliated with the bombing in Tel Aviv all hell broke loose. Fourthly I am all for peace in this region and its dragged on for way too long, but at the same time it has to be a fair and just peace deal settlement and not one that leaves one side with less than their fair and rightful share.


Quoting Backfire (reply 14):
one-sided postings by people with their own private vendettas.


So Ken Livingston has a vendetta against Israel? I don't think so. What is being done here is that certain aspects of this conflict are being raised that tend to be omitted or ignored.


Quoting Backfire (reply 14):
When the anti-Israeli types start thinking about what's good about Israel, and the Israel-can-do-no-wrong brigade starts admitting that their favourite little country isn't exactly a shining example of how to behave, then we might start getting somewhere.


I agree with you 100% because after all even though there are 2 sides to every story, there is only ever one truth.


Horus
EGYPT: A 7,000 Year Old Civilisation
 
qr332
Posts: 2592
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 11:16 pm

RE: Mayor Of London's View On Israel And Sharon

Sun Mar 06, 2005 8:52 pm

Quoting RJpieces (reply 11):
It's all demographics. The new plan for the security fence takes about 5% of the West bank--In that 5% are 80% of the Jewish settlers living in the West Bank, and just 1% of the Palestinian West Bank population. So on the Palestinian side of the security fence are 99% of the Palestinian West Bank population, and about 20% of the Jewish settlers who will eventually/hopefully leave.


Yes it sounds bad - the settlers aren't supposed to be there in the first place, so it is still stealing Palestinian land.

Quoting Backfire (reply 14):
It would make a refreshing change on A.net if the Arab members contributed some words on the positive things about Israel, and the normally pro-Israeli camps to explain some of the more negative things about Israel.


What nice sweet things do you want me to say about the people responsible for the murder of tens of thousands of my people and the ones occupying my country?
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
edka
Posts: 371
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 5:15 pm

RE: Mayor Of London's View On Israel And Sharon

Mon Mar 07, 2005 10:45 pm

Quoting Horus (reply 15):
let me remind you that I'm only 'half' an Arab and I'm also half English so stereotyping people into 'us' and 'them' doesn't work.

and we supposed to know that how??? i don't think Backfire was stereotyping anyone, my guess is that he was only refering to the flag that yuo have selected on your profile, last time i checked, Egypt was an Arab country...
 
Horus
Topic Author
Posts: 5131
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2004 1:04 am

RE: Mayor Of London's View On Israel And Sharon

Tue Mar 08, 2005 1:45 am

Quoting Edka (reply 17):
and we supposed to know that how??? i don't think Backfire was stereotyping anyone, my guess is that he was only refering to the flag that yuo have selected on your profile, last time i checked, Egypt was an Arab country...


Well if he looked at my profile he would have found out, besides that's still no excuse to pass judgement against an entire people/race based on stereotypical views and last time I checked that was unacceptable. And I agree I doubt Backfire meant anything sinister from what he said but he should take care how he words his arguments.

Horus
EGYPT: A 7,000 Year Old Civilisation
 
CXA330300
Posts: 1258
Joined: Wed May 26, 2004 5:51 am

RE: Mayor Of London's View On Israel And Sharon

Tue Mar 08, 2005 6:18 am

Quoting Backfire (reply 14):
It would make a refreshing change on A.net if the Arab members contributed some words on the positive things about Israel, and the normally pro-Israeli camps to explain some of the more negative things about Israel.


Not only that, but I think that some of the pro-Arab members should also point out the bad things in their countries (some Middle Eastern countries have human rights records that make the Israeli record look absolutely gleaming) and that the pro-Israel members need to complement the Arab countries (they invented Algebra and digits, after all).

And is it just me, or have some Arab and pro-Israel members, up to this point, refuse to even hear the smallest criticism of their countries. For example, I said a couple of months ago that I thought that Lebanon was being beaten around by Syria (now look!) and one Lebanese member went into this passionate defense, but it was totally useless.
AC/AA/UA/DL/B6/WN/US*/CO*/FI/BA/IB/AF/SK/LX/Sabena*/TK/LY/SA/MN/SW/AM/CE*/CX/CA/MU/JL/SQ/TG/MH/KA/5J
 
CXA330300
Posts: 1258
Joined: Wed May 26, 2004 5:51 am

RE: Mayor Of London's View On Israel And Sharon

Tue Mar 08, 2005 9:30 am

Quoting Horus (reply 18):
Well if he looked at my profile he would have found out, besides that's still no excuse to pass judgement against an entire people/race based on stereotypical views and last time I checked that was unacceptable. And I agree I doubt Backfire meant anything sinister from what he said but he should take care how he words his arguments.


Backfire probably meant pro-Arab, not Arab.
AC/AA/UA/DL/B6/WN/US*/CO*/FI/BA/IB/AF/SK/LX/Sabena*/TK/LY/SA/MN/SW/AM/CE*/CX/CA/MU/JL/SQ/TG/MH/KA/5J
 
tbar220
Posts: 6706
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2000 12:08 pm

RE: Mayor Of London's View On Israel And Sharon

Tue Mar 08, 2005 11:42 am

About the article... well, what kind of balanced opinion is this if he doesn't mention a peep about the over a thousand Israeli dead in the last four years? He mentions all the Israeli wrongdoing, but hasn't mentioned nearly four decades of terrorism by the Palestinians against the Israelis started by Arafat in 1964. He digs back until 1948 to harp on Israel's wrongdoings (no nation is perfect) but makes no mention whatsoever of Palestinian crimes against Israel. For that reason I cannot take him seriously, and nobody should.
NO URLS in signature
 
tbar220
Posts: 6706
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2000 12:08 pm

RE: Mayor Of London's View On Israel And Sharon

Tue Mar 08, 2005 11:46 am

I will take this one step further. Its is precisely this one sided criticism of Israel, digging back for 60 years for the criticism, that I consider anti-semitism. Israel is the Jewish state, and when you criticism its actions for its sixty years of existence without a mention of the opposition and terrorism its had to face, that is borderline anti-semitism.

How can he expect to be taken seriously? Israel has been no angel in the last sixty years, but to make it out to be the sole instigator behind the conflict is foolish, counter productive, and anti-semitic (since Israel is the only Jewish nation in the world).
NO URLS in signature
 
qr332
Posts: 2592
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 11:16 pm

RE: Mayor Of London's View On Israel And Sharon

Tue Mar 08, 2005 8:44 pm

Quoting CXA330300 (reply 19):
Not only that, but I think that some of the pro-Arab members should also point out the bad things in their countries (some Middle Eastern countries have human rights records that make the Israeli record look absolutely gleaming) and that the pro-Israel members need to complement the Arab countries (they invented Algebra and digits, after all).


CXA, most of the Arab/Pro-Arab members here, including myself, regularly point out that the Arab world really needs to change, and we do not deny that we have problems - and many of them are pretty big.

Quoting Tbar220 (reply 21):
About the article... well, what kind of balanced opinion is this if he doesn't mention a peep about the over a thousand Israeli dead in the last four years?


Most are military first of all - compare that to the Palestinian casualties, which are largley civilian. Also, thosaunds more Palestinians than Israelis died, I will research the figures, but there are much more than a thousand dead civilians.

Quoting Tbar220 (reply 21):
He mentions all the Israeli wrongdoing, but hasn't mentioned nearly four decades of terrorism by the Palestinians against the Israelis started by Arafat in 1964.


Which came as a result of Israel terrorizing the Palestinians. You try living the way the Palestinians lived, and still do, and then tell me if you wouldn't resort to these kind of things. I am not saying it is right, I am saying that I cannot blame them because they suffered a lot, thanks to Israel.

Quoting Tbar220 (reply 21):
He digs back until 1948 to harp on Israel's wrongdoings (no nation is perfect) but makes no mention whatsoever of Palestinian crimes against Israel.


Which are nothing compared to what Israel has done to us. "Wrongdoing" to decribe 1948 is the biggest understatement I have ever heard - massacering, looting, ethnic cleansing - the works.

Quoting Tbar220 (reply 22):
I will take this one step further. Its is precisely this one sided criticism of Israel, digging back for 60 years for the criticism, that I consider anti-semitism.


Yipee, here we go with the "he criticized Israel so he is anti-semetic" argument. Never heard that one before  Yeah sure.

Quoting Tbar220 (reply 22):
Israel is the Jewish state, and when you criticism its actions for its sixty years of existence without a mention of the opposition and terrorism its had to face, that is borderline anti-semitism.


No it isn't, he is criticizing Israel as a state. This is not even borderline anti-semetic - Israel has made a lot of mistakes, and everytime they are criticized, the anti-semetism card flies up. He is right, you know:

Quote:
Today the Israeli government is helping to promote a wholly distorted picture of racism and religious discrimination in Europe,[quote]

That is very true, and posts like yours prove this.

Quoting Tbar220 (reply 22):
Israel has been no angel in the last sixty years, but to make it out to be the sole instigator behind the conflict is foolish


No it isn't - THEY immigrated to Palestine, THEY ethnically cleansed the land, and thus THEY are responsible for this whole conflict.

[quote=Tbar220,reply=22](since Israel is the only Jewish nation in the world).


So what if they are the only Jewish nation in the world? This has nothing to do with religion, this is about the wrong-doings of a state, and just because they happen to be the only state representing the Jews does not give them a "get out of jail free" card.
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
tbar220
Posts: 6706
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2000 12:08 pm

RE: Mayor Of London's View On Israel And Sharon

Wed Mar 09, 2005 2:17 am

I'm not going to argue with you about history. What I'm questioning is this man's credibility, because he has an entire article devoted to Israel's wrongdoings, while he doesn't mention a word about Palestinian wrongdoings. Neither side is perfect, but to go and blame Israel for all the stuff that's happening is just plain irresponsible and is borderline anti-semitic. It reeks of ignorance and hate, how can an educated person ignore the deaths of so many Israelis? I know more Palestinian's have died, but that's not the point. The point is that he ignored, completely ignored, not a word, the Israeli dead.

Why I should take his article seriously? Tell me why its not anti-semitic. There's criticising Israel with equal criticism of the Palestinians, and there's one-sided criticism of Israel for the current crisis, and blaming them for all the problems of the last half century in the middle east.
NO URLS in signature
 
edka
Posts: 371
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 5:15 pm

RE: Mayor Of London's View On Israel And Sharon

Wed Mar 09, 2005 3:01 am

Quoting QR332 (reply 23):
Most are military first of all - compare that to the Palestinian casualties, which are largley civilian. Also, thosaunds more Palestinians than Israelis died, I will research the figures, but there are much more than a thousand dead civilians.

QR332, if you look at the research and the number of Israelis killed in the past 4 years - the majority ARE civilians that were killed by the suicide bombers - they ARE NOT military... How can you possibly say that???

I don't know where you are getting your information from, but would be interested if you let me know...

I'm not comparing Israelis killed vs Palestinians killed here...

Anyway, accepting that some of the Arab countries in the region need to change, do you mean that would include changing their attitude towards Israel ? - because that is the only way that peace will be achieved in the region.

This is only my opinion...
 
Horus
Topic Author
Posts: 5131
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2004 1:04 am

RE: Mayor Of London's View On Israel And Sharon

Wed Mar 09, 2005 3:49 am

Quoting Tbar220 (reply 24):
I'm not going to argue with you about history.


Well that is the issue at hand, which the Mayor refers to several times


Quoting Tbar220 (reply 24):
What I'm questioning is this man's credibility, because he has an entire article devoted to Israel's wrongdoings, while he doesn't mention a word about Palestinian wrongdoings.


The Mayor is highlighting one side of the conflict which is hardly ever exposed as it really is. And as QR332 said, describing Israeli terrorism in the form of massacres, theft, land-grab, etc by simply saying 'wrongdoing' is borderline racism as it trivialises so many horrific events over the last half century or so.



Quoting Tbar220 (reply 24):
It reeks of ignorance and hate, how can an educated person ignore the deaths of so many Israelis?


Simply because he decides to highlight a few 'home truths' about Israel you claim his views 'reeks of ignorance and hate'. Besides as you said yourself he is an 'educated person' so his views are valid and as a person in a position of authority he is reponsible to educate people about the unreported side of this conflict.



Quoting Tbar220 (reply 24):
I know more Palestinian's have died, but that's not the point.The point is that he ignored, completely ignored, not a word, the Israeli dead.


And according to your comment its acceptable to belittle Palestinan deaths and not report them even though their numbers are far greater than Israeli deaths with the vast majority being innoncent men, women and children?



Quoting Tbar220 (reply 24):
Why I should take his article seriously? Tell me why its not anti-semitic. There's criticising Israel with equal criticism of the Palestinians, and there's one-sided criticism of Israel for the current crisis, and blaming them for all the problems of the last half century in the middle east.



OK,

Firstly, if you do not wish to take this article seriously then that is your choice and that's where part of the problem lies that has been obstructing peace for decades....the resistance to accept responsibility for one's actions.

Secondly, he is not blaming the entire conflict on one side, but as I said before he is highlighting one side of the argument which tends to be ignored.

Thirdly, his article is not anti-semitic at all and I think if you read the whole article from start you'll see he is very much against all forms of racism including anti-semitism. This might help:

The fundamental issue on which we differ, as Henry Grunwald (president of the Board of Deputies of British Jews) knows, is not anti-semitism - which my administration has fought tooth and nail - but the policies of successive Israeli governments.

So if you're implying Mr. Livingston is anti-semitic then what about Mr Grunwald? Can you see the flaw in that argument?



Quoting EDKA (reply 25):
Anyway, accepting that some of the Arab countries in the region need to change, do you mean that would include changing their attitude towards Israel ? - because that is the only way that peace will be achieved in the region.


Change is expected from both sides.


Horus
EGYPT: A 7,000 Year Old Civilisation
 
qr332
Posts: 2592
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 11:16 pm

RE: Mayor Of London's View On Israel And Sharon

Wed Mar 09, 2005 5:07 am

Quoting Tbar220 (reply 24):
Tell me why its not anti-semitic.


Because Anti-Israeli and Anti-Semetic are two entirley different things. You could argue the man is being anti-Israeli, but even if he was Anti-Israeli he is arguing against the country as a country, not Judaism. Don't push religion into everything. Plus, why can't you take the fact that Israel can be wrong? The man is merley pointing it out, but for some reason the fair and free West likes to ignore our side and just listen to Israel.

Quoting Tbar220 (reply 24):
It reeks of ignorance and hate, how can an educated person ignore the deaths of so many Israelis?


He is not ignoring them - this article is to criticize Israel, not an overview of the conflict. And plus, your complaining about him "ignoring" 1,000 deaths while your fellow countrymen have ignored a MUCH higher death toll of Palestinians, and they have ignored everything wrong Israel does. Go figure.

Quoting EDKA (reply 25):
QR332, if you look at the research and the number of Israelis killed in the past 4 years - the majority ARE civilians that were killed by the suicide bombers - they ARE NOT military... How can you possibly say that???


I have looked over it, and I cannot find any reliable information - pro-Israeli sites give ridicioulisly high numbers and I cannot find any good figures on pro-Palestinian sites, and there are hardly any neutral sites. But, it depends on what your defenition of civilians is. I do not believe the settlers for example are unjustified targets - settlers are on illegal land, which is for Palestinians, and they have no place there. I have no sympathy for settlers killed whatsoever - especially since most of them are armed to the tooth anyway, and they perform acts of terror themselves - they beat up an unarmed Palestinian badly just last week near my hometown of Nablus. And before anyone attacks my claim, I heard it on an American-based radio station called Radio Sawa, so it was not some biased source. The settlers refusing to leave the Gaza Strip is another example of why I have no sympathy for them. I said that because of common sense - the intifada has lasted for 5 years, and I thought it would have resulted in more military than civilians being killed - if I find anything I will post it.

Quoting EDKA (reply 25):
I don't know where you are getting your information from, but would be interested if you let me know...


I get my information from many sources, not just one.

Quoting EDKA (reply 25):
I'm not comparing Israelis killed vs Palestinians killed here...


There is no comparison anyway.

Quoting EDKA (reply 25):
Anyway, accepting that some of the Arab countries in the region need to change, do you mean that would include changing their attitude towards Israel ? - because that is the only way that peace will be achieved in the region.


It depends - if Israel stays very aggressive towards the Palestinians as they have been in the past, and do not change their ways, then I think they should not change. If they stick to what they claim they are doing, and actually do stay on the road to peace then I support a change in policy with Israel - but it needs the work of both sides, not just the Arabs.
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
CXA330300
Posts: 1258
Joined: Wed May 26, 2004 5:51 am

RE: Mayor Of London's View On Israel And Sharon

Wed Mar 09, 2005 12:33 pm

Quoting QR332 (Reply 23):
CXA, most of the Arab/Pro-Arab members here, including myself, regularly point out that the Arab world really needs to change, and we do not deny that we have problems - and many of them are pretty big.

Unfortunately, some of the members aren't like that. I'm not naming names.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 23):
No it isn't - THEY immigrated to Palestine, THEY ethnically cleansed the land, and thus THEY are responsible for this whole conflict.

It is both sides. While the Israelis did confiscate some Palestinian lands, it is foolish to forget that the Palestinians (and the Arab world as a whole) instigated a movement that wanted to drive all Jews into the sea. So, naturally, as it was human Israel retaliated when attacked. And that is the same tactic many countries would use, including most Arab world countries.

Arabs in Morocco have also abused the people of W. Sahara for decades, too, you know. And the Berbers in the High Atlas. And was Saddam not an Arab when he dropped the gas bomb on Halabja?

Israel may have done many bad things, but so have Arabs.

And mind you, if it is so holy, why do we choose to settle there?
AC/AA/UA/DL/B6/WN/US*/CO*/FI/BA/IB/AF/SK/LX/Sabena*/TK/LY/SA/MN/SW/AM/CE*/CX/CA/MU/JL/SQ/TG/MH/KA/5J
 
tbar220
Posts: 6706
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2000 12:08 pm

RE: Mayor Of London's View On Israel And Sharon

Wed Mar 09, 2005 2:30 pm

Quoting QR332 (Reply 23):
No it isn't - THEY immigrated to Palestine, THEY ethnically cleansed the land, and thus THEY are responsible for this whole conflict.


Well shit dude, I'm glad I know this. I didn't know it was this simple, I'm glad you clarified it for me. If only all conflicts were as one sided as this, the solution would be much simpler, and the resulting conflict resolution would be swift and easy. Once we can find one side to blame entirely for a conflict, everything becomes much simpler.  Yeah sure

Since I found your statement so asinine and ridiculous, I find I have to resort to sarcasm.

In all seriousness, Israel and the Palestinians have both commited wrongdoings against the other, but to say that one side is totally responsible for the conflict (which you did in the above quote) is just plain stupid. Are you saying this because you're Palestinian? I'm an Israeli and can clearly see that both sides are at fault, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand this.
NO URLS in signature
 
qr332
Posts: 2592
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 11:16 pm

RE: Mayor Of London's View On Israel And Sharon

Wed Mar 09, 2005 8:22 pm

Quoting CXA330300 (Reply 28):
It is both sides. While the Israelis did confiscate some Palestinian lands, it is foolish to forget that the Palestinians (and the Arab world as a whole) instigated a movement that wanted to drive all Jews into the sea.


"some"? This is what the land ownership in Palestine looked like in 1945:

http://www.palestineremembered.com/Maps/New/Map5_OwnerShip.gif

Majority is Arab, as you can see. The map below is too large to post, but click the link and see the destruction of villages, towns, etc. Modern day Israel is made up of huge amounts of conifiscated lands; there are millions of Palestinian refugees. This is not "some", this is a hell of a lot of stolen land.

http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Maps/Story1261.html

As for driving the Jews into see, which movements are you referring to? Palestinians did want the Jews out of Palestine back then, because the West was brining in shiploads, and it was unfair to the Palestinians.

Quoting CXA330300 (Reply 28):
So, naturally, as it was human Israel retaliated when attacked. And that is the same tactic many countries would use, including most Arab world countries.


There was no Israel before 1948 - there was only an Israel after they ethnically cleansed the Arabs of Palestine, and I cannot blame the Arabs for wanting Israel to be destroyed - nor will I ever blame them. Israel was established at the cost of my land and my people - I would have wanted it destroyed too, just like ANY Arab and Palestinian would have wanted it to be. And Israel did more than just retaliate, trust me. Over 400 Palestinian towns and villages were ethnically cleansed and destroyed, as you can see from the map. In quite a few, massacres and acts of terror were performed by Jewish terrorist group such as the Irgun and the Haganah. Is this your idea of defence?

Quoting CXA330300 (Reply 28):
Arabs in Morocco have also abused the people of W. Sahara for decades, too, you know. And the Berbers in the High Atlas. And was Saddam not an Arab when he dropped the gas bomb on Halabja?


Yes they have, but what does that have anything to do with the Palestinians, or the discussion at hand?

Quoting CXA330300 (Reply 28):
And mind you, if it is so holy, why do we choose to settle there?


I don't understand what you're getting at. Can you clarify?

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 29):
Since I found your statement so asinine and ridiculous, I find I have to resort to sarcasm.


Why is it so ridiculous? When they chose to ethnically cleanse Palestine, and create a refugee problem which has led to 5,000,000 Palestinian refugees to exist today, then yes, it is them that sparked off everything they got.

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 29):
but to say that one side is totally responsible for the conflict (which you did in the above quote) is just plain stupid.


Did the Palestinians invite the Jews over to Palestine and say "Hey guys! Come here, invade our land, and ethnically cleanse us!"? Nope, the Jews emigrated to Palestine, and when they decided to do all of what they did, and to establish a state on OUR land, they were responsible for the beginning of the conflict.

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 29):
Are you saying this because you're Palestinian? I'm an Israeli and can clearly see that both sides are at fault, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand this.


Throughout the conflict, both sides have been at fault with different things. But, the start of the Palestinians had nothing to do with starting the conflict. The Balfour declaration in 1918 that promised the Jews a home in Palestine started it, then the Jews coming to Palestine and performing many acts of terror, including ethnic cleansing casued it to escalate much more. Of course the Palestinians are going to try and push back the Jews - wouldn't you if a foreign power promised millions of Europeans a homeland on what is rightfully yours, and where you had been living for centuries?
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
tbar220
Posts: 6706
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2000 12:08 pm

RE: Mayor Of London's View On Israel And Sharon

Thu Mar 10, 2005 1:48 am

Well I guess I'm going to have to disagree with you. Your kind of thought, that it is purely Israel's fault, is destructive. No conflict is one sided, period. Get that into your head, and then maybe you will be able to come up with some productive opinion on the matter, rather than just those maps which you are so great at procuring. I'm not debating history with you, I'm debating your opinion that the Palestinians have no fault in this conflict, which is skewed and also irresponsible.
NO URLS in signature
 
qr332
Posts: 2592
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 11:16 pm

RE: Mayor Of London's View On Israel And Sharon

Thu Mar 10, 2005 2:26 am

I never said they have no fault, don't put words into my mouth. I said they have no fault in starting the conflict - that is very different from them having no fault in the conflict. The point is that if it wasn't for the actions of the Zionists pre-1948, there would be no conflict today.
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
tbar220
Posts: 6706
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2000 12:08 pm

RE: Mayor Of London's View On Israel And Sharon

Thu Mar 10, 2005 5:02 am

Quoting QR332 (Reply 23):
No it isn't - THEY immigrated to Palestine, THEY ethnically cleansed the land, and thus THEY are responsible for this whole conflict.


So what's this then? These aren't your words? You're saying that Jews are responsible for this "whole conflict". In other words, the Jews actions in the last forty years is the cause of the last forty years of Palestinian terrorism.

You should clarify before you post. When I read... "thus THEY are responsible for this whole conflict"... I understand it as you are putting all the blame for the middle east conflict on the Jews. Its not that simple, and rather than try and wiggle your way out of it now, you should clarify when you make the post.

And if you truly believe that the Jews (oh no, I mean the Israelis) are solely responsible for the last decades of violence and warfare (as I understood in your post), then you're a lost cause and I can't try and convince you otherwise.
NO URLS in signature
 
qr332
Posts: 2592
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 11:16 pm

RE: Mayor Of London's View On Israel And Sharon

Thu Mar 10, 2005 5:31 am

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 33):
In other words, the Jews actions in the last forty years is the cause of the last forty years of Palestinian terrorism.


No shit!

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 33):
You should clarify before you post. When I read... "thus THEY are responsible for this whole conflict"... I understand it as you are putting all the blame for the middle east conflict on the Jews. Its not that simple, and rather than try and wiggle your way out of it now, you should clarify when you make the post.


What I am putting the blame on Israel for is starting this conflict, I am not saying they are the only ones making mistakes. But, the fact is, they were not provoked - they started the conflict, and as a direct cause of the suffering inflicted on the Palestinians - be it from occupation, becoming refugees, losing everything, whatever - Palestinian resistance movements were born.

Quoting Tbar220 (Reply 33):
And if you truly believe that the Jews (oh no, I mean the Israelis) are solely responsible for the last decades of violence and warfare (as I understood in your post), then you're a lost cause and I can't try and convince you otherwise.


They are responsible for the STARTING of the conflict, i.e. the ORIGINS of the conflict lie in Israel's and the Zionist movement's actions. This means that the start of the Israeli-Palestinian problem is as a direct result of their actions - stop putting words into my mouth, the last 60 years have had a lot happen in them, and it would be very naive to say Israel is the cause of all of it. But my point is that if it wasn't for what the Zionists and their terrorist groups did in Palestine between 1918-1948, there would be no conflict today. You misunderstood my post, they are responsible for starting it, but not maintaing it. Both sides are responsible for maintaining the violence, both sides have done very bad things, and both sides have done wrong. But, at the end of the day, the Israelis have been responsible for much more than the Palestinians.
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
tbar220
Posts: 6706
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2000 12:08 pm

RE: Mayor Of London's View On Israel And Sharon

Thu Mar 10, 2005 10:42 am



Quoting QR332 (Reply 34):
Both sides are responsible for maintaining the violence, both sides have done very bad things, and both sides have done wrong.

That's all I wanted to hear. Thank you and have a good day.
NO URLS in signature

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests