MD-90
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Does Depleted Uranium Ammunition Cause This?

Thu Mar 10, 2005 2:45 pm

Original article
http://thewandererpress.com/a10-28-2004.htm

Pictures: WARNING! These are EXTREMELY GRAPHIC AND DISTURBING!
http://www.xs4all.nl/~stgvisie/VISIE/extremedeformities.html



If this is an urban legend or some kind of hoax, I haven't been able to figure it out. If these types of birth defects are caused by using depleted uranium ammunition, then surely we must stop using it and safely destroy existing stocks.
 
DeskPilot
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RE: Does Depleted Uranium Ammunition Cause This?

Thu Mar 10, 2005 2:48 pm

If it's true, then it's a crime. All children are innocent and don't deserve this.
By the way, is there anyone on board who knows how to fly a plane?
 
N5176Y
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RE: Does Depleted Uranium Ammunition Cause This?

Thu Mar 10, 2005 2:58 pm

I'm highly skeptical on everything I read on the internet.

Here's a legitimate site: http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs257/en/
 
L-188
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RE: Does Depleted Uranium Ammunition Cause This?

Thu Mar 10, 2005 3:02 pm

Agreed, Skeptisim is high.

I think I saw at one double that was not identified as being from the same child on that second link.

As far as Gulf War Syndrome, I think it has been pretty well established that it was a mix of cocktails from the nerve agent medicines that where given our troops, including experimental ones that are to blame.

The pentagon denies this of course, but it still makes me glad I got out before that whole Clinton era blow-up over anthrax intections to personel.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
MD-90
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RE: Does Depleted Uranium Ammunition Cause This?

Thu Mar 10, 2005 3:13 pm

I'm especially skeptical when you see the amateur type of webpage that it is. It would be sad if someone put up those pictures just to shock and titillate.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Does Depleted Uranium Ammunition Cause This?

Thu Mar 10, 2005 3:16 pm

Well, I'm no nuclear scientist, and I've been handling DU rounds for - well, literally most of my adult life. I have never, ever, seen evidence - personally - that the DU rounds have caused any problems.

I haven't got any friends that have witnessed any issues with DU rounds.

I'm not going to deny it because I haven't read up on it or done any research on it.

The extent of my research is to the extent that I know the damn things are pretty flippin' effective in combat. I don't need to be a nuclear scientist to figure that out - I've witnessed it first hand. Matter of fact, if had to go back to combat, I'd have nothing but DUAPFSDS-T loaded on my tank. Nothing better for that 120mm cannon.

I agree with L-188 on the Gulf War Syndrome . . . all the anti-toxins, and exposure to nerve agent, and other contributing factors caused a lot of problems in some of our troops. Unfortunately, there are some that still think otherwise, but I'm sure - just like agent orange - in 20 or 30 years, it will come out of the 5 sided funny farm that it is fact.

My congratulations MD-90 . . . a post worth working with! Well done.  Big grin
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MxCtrlr
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RE: Does Depleted Uranium Ammunition Cause This?

Thu Mar 10, 2005 3:24 pm

I would tend to believe the WHO report on this issue versus the "Catholic Press" version represented by The Wanderer Press. It just further proves the point that numbers and facts can be manipulated to bolster whatever opinion you are supporting/trying to destroy.

DU rounds do the job they were intended to do - stop the enemy by cutting through their armor.

MxCtrlr  Silly
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b757300
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RE: Does Depleted Uranium Ammunition Cause This?

Thu Mar 10, 2005 3:24 pm

Depleted Uranium (DU) is no more harmful than any other heavy metal such as lead. Natural uranium is composed primarily of three isotopes, two that are radioactive and one that isn't. Uranium 233 & 235 are radioactive but comprise around 2% of all naturally occurring uranium. The other 98% is uranium 238 who does not produce dangerous radiation. Once the radioactive isotopes (U-233 & U-235) have been removed for use in nuclear power plants, research, medical applications, and,although not at this time, nuclear weapons, what remains is the non-fissionable U-238 or what is commonly referred to as depleted uranium. (U-238 can be processed into Plutonium-239 but that's another issue.)

You could put a piece of DU on your desk for the next 50 years and never suffer any ill effects nor would anyone else in your household. However, if you decide to turn it into a dust and breath it in, you'll have a problem just like you would if you sucked up too much lead.

If one looks a little deeper at the groups who push the stories about DU causing just about every known health problem, you'll usually find their agenda is more anti-U.S. than true concern over any possible health effects of depleted uranium.
"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
 
L-188
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RE: Does Depleted Uranium Ammunition Cause This?

Thu Mar 10, 2005 3:52 pm



Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 5):
Well, I'm no nuclear scientist, and I've been handling DU rounds for - well, literally most of my adult life. I have never, ever, seen evidence - personally - that the DU rounds have caused any problems.

And there we have part of the reason I am suspicous of this link.

However a lot of the claims is with atomized DU, unlike the rounds you where handling ANCFlyer.

However I would be curious to see if there was a higher rate in tank kill surviors. They would have been in close proximity to freshly atomized DU and possibly in a confined space.

If you don't see a higher rate of cancer, deforminites and the like in that group then I think we could rule out DU.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Does Depleted Uranium Ammunition Cause This?

Thu Mar 10, 2005 3:59 pm



Quoting L-188 (Reply 8):
However I would be curious to see if there was a higher rate in tank kill surviors.

Dude, we didn't leave any survivors . . . I assure you. If the Sabot didn't get them the coax did.

I've got to think you've seen pictures, video, etc. If anyone lived through some of those it's probably not the DU that killed them (eventually).
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
L-188
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RE: Does Depleted Uranium Ammunition Cause This?

Thu Mar 10, 2005 4:02 pm



Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 9):
Dude, we didn't leave any survivors . . . I assure you. If the Sabot didn't get them the coax did.

Yeah I saw the video of yall "popping the tops" off T-72's.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Does Depleted Uranium Ammunition Cause This?

Thu Mar 10, 2005 4:14 pm



Quoting L-188 (Reply 10):
Yeah I saw the video of yall "popping the tops" off T-72's.

 biggrin 

We did good huh.

Like opening a can of beer . . . . easier in fact.

Ya know - I'd have to wonder whether I had any job security if I were a "Russian" tank designer after Gulf War 1 . . . and the fact that we were taking them out at extremely long ranges . . . when they couldn't even see us. . . whew it was great . . .

But I digress . . . I don't think DU had anything to do with the Gulf War illness . . .
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
L-188
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RE: Does Depleted Uranium Ammunition Cause This?

Thu Mar 10, 2005 4:23 pm

I am pretty sure (99.99%) the Apaches weren't allowed to shoot DU at Graf.

That was about the closest I ever got.

But like I said earlier, I can't picture these effects from radiation and no effects on the parents.

Chemicals and chemical reactions, I can see.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Does Depleted Uranium Ammunition Cause This?

Thu Mar 10, 2005 4:33 pm



Quoting L-188 (Reply 12):
I am pretty sure (99.99%) the Apaches weren't allowed to shoot DU at Graf.

Neither were we . . . in fact, we were specifically told is was verbotten.

I have fired service sabot on ranges in Germany, but not DU. . . ever.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
ushermittwoch
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RE: Does Depleted Uranium Ammunition Cause This?

Thu Mar 10, 2005 8:11 pm



Quoting B757300 (Reply 7):
However, if you decide to turn it into a dust and breath it in, you'll have a problem just like you would if you sucked up too much lead.

And that's exactly what a lot of people are complaining about. Not handling the shells themselves but being exposed to the dust that they emit on impact. And I would tend to think that uranium is more harmful than lead.
Where have all the tri-jets gone...
 
Russophile
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RE: Does Depleted Uranium Ammunition Cause This?

Thu Mar 10, 2005 10:02 pm

And who said the US hasn't used WMD since WWII? Weapons of Mass Deformation.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 11):
Ya know - I'd have to wonder whether I had any job security if I were a "Russian" tank designer after Gulf War 1 . . . and the fact that we were taking them out at extremely long ranges . . . when they couldn't even see us. . . whew it was great . . .

What makes you think that the Russians haven't also taken to using DU in the design of their tanks and weapons? Take the T-90 as one such example.

Put T-90s in the hands of the Iraqis in 1991, and put them up again US tanks, and I don't think you would be saying 'whew it was great'.  Yeah sure
 
dl021
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RE: Does Depleted Uranium Ammunition Cause This?

Thu Mar 10, 2005 10:48 pm

DU rounds are safe when handled properly, but no one will convince me that you don't need serious battlefield cleanup after those rounds are used. I think...hell, I know, that they are the most effective projectile weapons available now...but I hope that EM tech gets better soon so we can go straight to KE solid projectiles that kill with hyperspeed and medium density instead of high speed and ultradensity.

On the issue of Gulf War Syndrome...there are many theories and I'm pretty sure that no one is ever going to put the finger on just one cause.

Its entirely possible that some people reacted badly to the routine of shots, and others might have breathed in noxious/poisonous fumes while coming near burning vehicles without adequate MOPP gear not realizing the danger.

Hell the entire country of Kuwait was blanketed with thick oil smoke for months and no one says that breathing that crap is good for you either.

There is also the issue of the nerve agent and other chem weapons that were destroyed by explosion after the war and we aren't sure whether any residue was left in the atmosphere to cause problems out there. I'll keep supporting the effort to get more research done, but no matter what, its going to be tough to tell a guy that his kid got leukemia because he got leukemia and it happens when there is a theory out there that says its someones fault. People want a solid reason to blame on anything that happens. It's human nature.

Quoting Russophile (Reply 15):
Put T-90s in the hands of the Iraqis in 1991, and put them up again US tanks, and I don't think you would be saying 'whew it was great'

Put machine guns in the hands of the Confederates at Gettysburg and the results would have been different. That is more true than what Russophile is claiming. The M1-A1 performed better than anyone expected and the T-90 tanks still can't match the range of the 120mm gun on the M1. If you get shot prior to shooting you lose....that simple. In addition to the air support raining down Hellfire (literally) and Mavericks the Iraqis could have had hovertanks from a Heinlein book and still lost this without air support. Perhaps you ought to stick to your political theory, where you can argue theory all day long. Tanks out in the open with no air cover against other tanks with better range and electronics and air support will lose.
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airplay
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RE: Does Depleted Uranium Ammunition Cause This?

Thu Mar 10, 2005 11:10 pm



Quoting B757300 (Reply 7):
You could put a piece of DU on your desk for the next 50 years and never suffer any ill effects nor would anyone else in your household. However, if you decide to turn it into a dust and breath it in, you'll have a problem just like you would if you sucked up too much lead.

When millions of rounds are fired, you would think at least some dust would result.

Obviously it is true that DU dust is harmful. However, I don't think the original story has sufficient information to determine if its all valid or relevant.
 
NoUFO
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RE: Does Depleted Uranium Ammunition Cause This?

Fri Mar 11, 2005 1:01 am

The controversial nature of depleted uranium was the reason for some companies (or at least Rheinmetall) to develop a tungsten alloy that is at least as destructive as DU. Price tag, however, was said to be prohibitive, so the US Army, contrary to the Bundeswehr, continued to use (US made) DU ammo.

A fortnight or so ago, Spiegel reported that dust of this very tungstren alloy is believed to be just as carcinogenic as dust of depleted uranium.  Yeah sure
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Does Depleted Uranium Ammunition Cause This?

Fri Mar 11, 2005 2:33 am



Quoting Russophile (Reply 15):
Put T-90s in the hands of the Iraqis in 1991, and put them up again US tanks, and I don't think you would be saying 'whew it was great'

As usual Russo, we disagree. Experience in a tank turret having the upper hand here, I believe in all fairness to you I probably wasn't thinking "Whew this is great" we're killing everyone - more like "Whew this is great" they're not killing US!

And it would be the same against the T-90. The thing simple doesn't have the range or to stabilization platform to allow it to fire accurately in all conditions and at much greater ranges.

But to each their own, when you become King Rat in Austraila you can equip your Armies with the T-90, I'm sticking with the M1A1/M1A2 Abrams . . . all the way.

Like that old saying, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. . .
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
DeltaGuy
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RE: Does Depleted Uranium Ammunition Cause This?

Fri Mar 11, 2005 8:49 am

I have a few DU rounds on my bookcase, taken from the Navy's Phalynx 20MM gun. (ship's close in weapons system, or CWIS). No problems so far. The stuff is damn effective against missles/other incoming nasties, put 4,000 of em up per minute, matter pretty much ceases to exist Big grin

DeltaGuy
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L-188
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RE: Does Depleted Uranium Ammunition Cause This?

Fri Mar 11, 2005 9:09 am

Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 20):
have a few DU rounds on my bookcase, taken from the Navy's Phalynx 20MM gun

Are they DU? Or are they baby blue training rounds that aren't DU? It was the latter we where shooting at Graf and somebody picked up a couple one time I was there off the range. They came from 3-4 Cav, which was a Cobra unit at the time. They had used the range the day before.

I can't for the life of me see why you would want a DU round in an anti-aircraft round. Seems like it would punch straight through, without doing much damage.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
LY744
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RE: Does Depleted Uranium Ammunition Cause This?

Fri Mar 11, 2005 2:46 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 11):
Ya know - I'd have to wonder whether I had any job security if I were a "Russian" tank designer after Gulf War 1

The T-72 was 20 years old by the time Gulf War I rolled around mind you, and an export version at that.  Yeah sure


LY744.
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Does Depleted Uranium Ammunition Cause This?

Fri Mar 11, 2005 3:14 pm

Quoting LY744 (Reply 22):
The T-72 was 20 years old by the time Gulf War I rolled around mind you, and an export version at that.

And the Abrams was 12-16 years old at the time . . . that excuse/reason holds no water . . . .

Not to mention I've see the "real" ones - meaning the non-export version - and still was not impressed. Auto-Loader, no turret floor, woefulyy inadequate thermal, literally non-existent laser range finder or at least one that is inaccurate as hell.

I'll take an Abrams any time, any place, any battlefield . . . .
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
LY744
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RE: Does Depleted Uranium Ammunition Cause This?

Sat Mar 12, 2005 2:52 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 23):
I'll take an Abrams any time,

So would I, but I wouldn't be commenting on Russian tank designers after Desert Storm because:


  • The ones that actually designed the T-72 were probably retired/dead by then and would not have to worry about their job security
  • The ones that were in the design business at the time were working on models 2-3 generations/evolutions ahead of the 72 (which was first defeated in combat a good decade before the Gulf War rolled around anyways)


Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 23):
literally non-existent laser range finder or at least one that is inaccurate as hell.

That, along with the tank's entire aiming complex is its most glaring weakness, which coincidentally cannot be blamed on the actual tank designers (they did the best they could with what they had to work with).


LY744.
Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
 
GDB
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RE: Does Depleted Uranium Ammunition Cause This?

Sat Mar 12, 2005 3:40 am

As stated, a discharged DU round can be dangerous, for instance, what about Allied troops inspecting killed Iraqi tanks as a result of a DU round?
There has been serious (military) concern about this.

Of course day to day, un-discharged DU is OK, I've known it to be used for aircraft weighing for instance.

But discharged DU, which then gets into the water table, has the potential to cause stuff like birth defects, just like the terrible effects, to this day, of Agent Orange in Vietnam, (which the US has refused to compensate for, despite the obvious risk of the stuff even at the time, some US troops were affected).

If DU is OK, why then is it being perhaps being phased out slowly, for example, the 20mm DU rounds for the Vulcan Phalanx shipboard air defence system, is replacing DU with tungsten?
Are similar replacements happening elsewhere in military munition DU applications?
 
MD-90
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RE: Does Depleted Uranium Ammunition Cause This?

Sat Mar 12, 2005 4:50 am

Why can't they just use steel, even if it's less dense?

Which nation is most likely to seriously challenge the USA? China.
Which nation has the world's largest tungsten deposits by far? China.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Does Depleted Uranium Ammunition Cause This?

Sat Mar 12, 2005 4:59 am

Quoting MD-90 (Reply 26):
Why can't they just use steel, even if it's less dense?

In elementary terms, it's too soft and too light weight. Won't penetrate the armor - sometimes at all, often not completely; won't fly as far as fast and is therefore ineffective.

[Edited 2005-03-11 21:20:49]
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
L-188
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RE: Does Depleted Uranium Ammunition Cause This?

Sat Mar 12, 2005 5:14 am

Quoting MD-90 (Reply 26):
Why can't they just use steel, even if it's less dense?

Force=massxacceleration.

So the greater the mass you can get by using heavlier materials such as Tungsten or DU, the more force you will hit a target with at a given acceleration or speed.

This is also the reason why take barrels have been getting longer over the years. A longer barrel all else being equal means greater acceleration.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
DeltaGuy
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RE: Does Depleted Uranium Ammunition Cause This?

Sat Mar 12, 2005 7:52 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 21):
Seems like it would punch straight through, without doing much damage.

I'm definately not a weapon designer, but when you have a wall of DU coming right at you (4,000-6,000 rounds per minute), it's just one big hard wall. The CWIS guns aren't designed really for anti aircraft, they're more of a last-ditch weapon....kill the incoming plane/missile with a wall of uranium, pretty much.

DeltaGuy
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sovietjet
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RE: Does Depleted Uranium Ammunition Cause This?

Sat Mar 12, 2005 8:34 am

I have a question....who the hell is Agent Orange?
 
sprout5199
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RE: Does Depleted Uranium Ammunition Cause This?

Sat Mar 12, 2005 8:36 am

Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 20):
I have a few DU rounds on my bookcase, taken from the Navy's Phalynx 20MM gun. (ship's close in weapons system, or CWIS).

You do? Were you an FC or GM? The closest I got to one was on-loading weapons. Heavy S.O.B.s. I do have a couple of shells from our 76mm gun. would have loved to get even a shell from our CIWS but the zeros always scarfed them up(the bastards).

Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 29):
The CWIS guns aren't designed really for anti aircraft, they're more of a last-ditch weapon....kill the incoming plane/missile with a wall of uranium, pretty much.

we shot down a towed drone with the CIWS once, cut the cable with a round. the damn thing went ballistic and hit the CIWS mount. Oh the Irony

Dan in Jupiter
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Does Depleted Uranium Ammunition Cause This?

Sat Mar 12, 2005 9:10 am

Uranium is a very common element, it is not rare at all. The only thing about it is that, beside being used in ceramic glacing (it gives a blue colour), up to the 20th century, it had no uses, so miners going for silver, copper, gold or other metals dumped the uranium ore outside their mines. As far as this I wouldn´t be too worried about uranium entering the water table, it is already there by natural causes.
Now uranium metal is, like all heavy metals, chemically poisonous, if ingested in certain amounts.
U238 is also radiocative, but at a very low intensity (it has the longest half life of all natural elements, almost 4 billion years and is an alpha radiator).
Most soluble uranium compounds are toxic, but if handled properly, it is not very dangerous. I worked with uranium salts during my first semester lab class in inorganic chemistry (qualitative analitical methods across the periodic table) at university.

Uranium metal is very reactive and burns easily if it is in the form of dust. Again, uranium dioxide is a common uranium ore (Pechblende).

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Does Depleted Uranium Ammunition Cause This?

Sat Mar 12, 2005 9:17 am

Quoting Sovietjet (Reply 30):
I have a question....who the hell is Agent Orange?

Not a person, a chemical herbicide used in Vietnam

The jungles in the Mykong (sp?) river delta were so dense, they provided excellent cover for NVA combatants, so the U.S. strategist decided to disperse herbicide (plant killers) from airplanes to thin and kill the jungles.

I believe the controversy today surronds the cover-up of carcenoginic properties of Agent Orange by the chemical manufactures. The Army was incredibily non-challant with Agent Orange and few people handling it in field wore protective garments, so many U.S. servicemen were exposed as well.

[Edited 2005-03-12 01:19:20]
 
sprout5199
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RE: Does Depleted Uranium Ammunition Cause This?

Sat Mar 12, 2005 9:21 am

Quoting Ushermittwoch (Reply 14):
And I would tend to think that uranium is more harmful than lead.

I wouldn't. Lead is known to cause birth defects, and a lot of other nasty stuff. The sheriff's dept I work for had to pay a lot of fines to the EPA due to the old shooting range they had. The lead leached into the water supply. Now every year they tear down the dirt back stop and remove the lead. Plus why do you think you cant buy leaded gas anymore? Its real nasty stuff.

Dan in Jupiter
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: Does Depleted Uranium Ammunition Cause This?

Sat Mar 12, 2005 9:26 am

I can think of a couple biological weapons that would cause this in births... Not only in a current generation of children, but in a generation skipping fashion. Which is really quite scary when you think about it when some of these chemicals were used in Iraq in the last 10 years.
 
sprout5199
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RE: Does Depleted Uranium Ammunition Cause This?

Sat Mar 12, 2005 9:29 am

Just looked at the first link. "The Morality Of Weapons Systems"
Now thats a oxymoron if I ever heard of one.

Dan in Jupiter
 
pacificjourney
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RE: Does Depleted Uranium Ammunition Cause This?

Sat Mar 12, 2005 10:31 am

US doesn't use DU rounds on it's own soil though, it's not allowed, just other people's. I wonder why ......

All you guys with one sitting on your desk or carrying them around, yeah those are harmless, they are in weffect sealed, but once fired are you so sure. Would you want your children playing around in it ?
" Help, help ... I'm being oppressed ... "
 
sprout5199
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RE: Does Depleted Uranium Ammunition Cause This?

Sat Mar 12, 2005 10:35 am

Quoting Pacificjourney (Reply 37):
US doesn't use DU rounds on it's own soil though, it's not allowed, just other people's. I wonder why ......

I dont think they had DU the last time the US had to fight on her own soil

Dan in Jupiter
 
DeltaGuy
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RE: Does Depleted Uranium Ammunition Cause This?

Sat Mar 12, 2005 10:36 am

Quoting Sprout5199 (Reply 31):
You do? Were you an FC or GM?

Neither lol...my dad was the Combat Officer (in charge of CDC) onboard the USS Carl Vinson...I knew a few GM's and between them and my own dad, I always managed to get neat little trophies Big grin

They are heavy little bastards..would hate to be the incoming offender. Funny story about the CIWS mount lol.  Smile

DeltaGuy
"The cockpit, what is it?" "It's the little room in the front of the plane where the pilot sits, but that's not importan
 
L-188
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RE: Does Depleted Uranium Ammunition Cause This?

Sat Mar 12, 2005 11:45 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 33):
The Army was incredibily non-challant with Agent Orange and few people handling it in field wore protective garments, so many U.S. servicemen were exposed as well.

A lot of the guys with issues where Gi's operating in areas that had been sprayed.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.

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