Superfly
Topic Author
Posts: 37735
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

Did These Luxury Cars Ever Compete In Same Market?

Fri Mar 11, 2005 4:14 am

In the late 1970s, there was an abundance of fine luxury sedans to choose from for various countries.
I want to know if American, British, German and Soviet models in that class
ever competed in the same country. I know limited numbers of
American cars were imported to Europe at that time.
Only the super wealthy were able to afford these cars.



1977 Lincoln Continental Town Car
(United States)

Image hosted by Photobucket.com





1977 Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham
(United States)








1979-81 (?) Jaguar Vanden Plas
(United Kingdom)








1978 Mercedes 6.9
(West Germany)






1978 Zil
(Soviet Union)



[Edited 2005-03-10 20:18:20]

[Edited 2005-03-10 20:20:14]
Bring back the Concorde
 
PHLBOS
Posts: 6504
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2004 6:38 am

RE: Did These Luxury Cars Ever Compete In Same Market?

Fri Mar 11, 2005 4:58 am



Quoting Superfly (Thread starter):
I want to know if American, British, German and Soviet models in that class
ever competed in the same country.

Superfly,

My guess would be (key word guess) maybe one of the Middle Eastern oil-producing countries (Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran, etc.). I don't know if the Zil was ever imported elsewhere; maybe to some other Iron-Curtain countries, perhaps. If you eliminated the Soviet Zil from your list; there would be a lot more countries (including the U.S.) that sold these cars.

BTW, you should've posted a picture of a '76 Cadillac instead of the '77 because that was the last year of the monster-sized models with the 500 cid V8s.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
aerobalance
Posts: 4309
Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2000 8:35 am

RE: Did These Luxury Cars Ever Compete In Same Market?

Fri Mar 11, 2005 5:14 am

Fine looking ships there...
"Sing a song, play guitar, make it snappy..."
 
Superfly
Topic Author
Posts: 37735
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Did These Luxury Cars Ever Compete In Same Market?

Fri Mar 11, 2005 5:18 am



Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 1):
BTW, you should've posted a picture of a '76 Cadillac instead of the '77 because that was the last year of the monster-sized models with the 500 cid V8s.

OK I was showing a bias. 9-P

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 1):
I don't know if the Zil was ever imported elsewhere; maybe to some other Iron-Curtain countries, perhaps.

No Zils imported to Scandinavia?
Bring back the Concorde
 
Superfly
Topic Author
Posts: 37735
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Did These Luxury Cars Ever Compete In Same Market?

Fri Mar 11, 2005 6:57 am

I meant to say I was trying to show a Lincoln superiority over Cadillac.

I was hesetant to include the Rolls Royce only because it was so much more expensive than the others. However I think the Zil cost more than the Rolls Royce.
Bring back the Concorde
 
cptkrell
Posts: 3186
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2001 10:50 pm

RE: Did These Luxury Cars Ever Compete In Same Market?

Fri Mar 11, 2005 12:58 pm

'Fly, with the only limited market of the very wealthy in the U.S, the Royces (car guys, especially those from the Island, will know why you don't call them Rolls') and the lesser-badged Bentleys, comparitively few higher level imported sedans found ultra popularity here in the upper-luxo market in the era you mentioned. The number of other elites who wanted a Jaguar or Mercedes or similar, desiring a notable car without outrageous expenditure, chose so, but remember, at that time, even if you HAD to have a notable ride, you'd eventually get tired of (shall we say) a day-to-day reliability problem plus waiting for service and imported parts. Even big-titted movie stars who'd gladly pay Juan the pool-boy extra for a mid-morn frolic would eventually get pissed when her "Marquis de Marquis XJ-VIX" wouldn't start to get her to the afternoon martini with Juan the pool-boy II.

In parallel, American luxo-boats had the same minus-signature with the added negative of size overseas. The Lincs and Caddys of the era where simply too much of a footprint problem on the tiny (almost dwarf-like in many instances) roads in Europe. Physical placement, turning radius, not to mention fuel required to power a 300% larger engine moving 200% more vehicle mass simply never caught favor in Europe irrespective of status. They wanted the uniqueness, prestige, of an American car mostly when offered in a more manageable form, like the Mustang (called T-6 in Germany because of a name copyright law), or an Impala/Catalina if you wanted a REAL big car. Usually, Caddys and Lincs and the rare Imperial were only "heads-of-state" or similar chieftan rides.

As an aside, the Russian ZILs (ZIFs ?) were large Packard/Mercedes (mostly Packard wannabe styling) clones that were reserved mostly for pomp and ceremony and were never really offered for general sale.

Europeans, irrespective of what country, have mostly been negative to American "decadence" in respect to autos. This has changed (ever so slightly so) as USA manufacturers make tippy-toe steps into understanding European psychological (and honest engineering) requirements. Although more USA upper-level rides are now being purchased overseas, I believe the ratio will still border on the insignificant chart just as it has been historically. For the few(er) elite, purchase and operating costs, as well as operational functionality will not be that much of a problem, but for those who can afford the bucks, even most of them will still be put off by excessive (for their environment) size and operational manouvreability today just as much as they were in the past.

My humble observations...I'm sure others can add/subtract to my opinions. Regards..Jack
all best; jack
 
Superfly
Topic Author
Posts: 37735
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Did These Luxury Cars Ever Compete In Same Market?

Sat Mar 12, 2005 1:11 am

Cptkrell:
Thanks for the info. I left off the Imperial because the last year for those was 1975. Yes the New Yorker Brougham 1976-1978 were the same car, it's a Chrysler which isn't as elite at Lincoln and Cadillac. Name recognition is very important in this class of vehicle.


Even big-titted movie stars who'd gladly pay Juan the pool-boy extra for a mid-morn frolic would eventually get pissed when her "Marquis de Marquis XJ-VIX" wouldn't start to get her to the afternoon martini with Juan the pool-boy II.

You are reminding me of a very special older lady. It's fun being a 'boy toy' on occasions.  Smile


As an aside, the Russian ZILs (ZIFs ?) were large Packard/Mercedes (mostly Packard wannabe styling) clones that were reserved mostly for pomp and ceremony and were never really offered for general sale.

I have a National Geography Magazine from 1977 and one of the stories was on the Soviet Union. They covered many facets of life in the USSR including there automobiles and aviation. It has a photo of the TU-144 in a factory.
They showed then President Brezhnev motorcade with the Zil.
The article mentioned that the Zil sales for $75,000!  Wow!
That was more expensive than a Rolls Royce!
Bring back the Concorde
 
Superfly
Topic Author
Posts: 37735
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Did These Luxury Cars Ever Compete In Same Market?

Tue Mar 15, 2005 6:27 am

Does Zil still make the limo?
Bring back the Concorde
 
tristarenvy
Posts: 2235
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2004 2:07 am

RE: Did These Luxury Cars Ever Compete In Same Market?

Tue Mar 15, 2005 6:53 am

Enjoy!

http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Speedway/4546/

Found this site a while back....
If you don't stand for SOMETHING, you'll fall for ANYTHING.
 
Cathay Pacific
Posts: 1715
Joined: Sat May 27, 2000 1:29 am

RE: Did These Luxury Cars Ever Compete In Same Market?

Tue Mar 15, 2005 7:03 am

I used to wanna own a Cadillac when I was a kid :P
cathay pacific, now you're really flying
 
Superfly
Topic Author
Posts: 37735
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Did These Luxury Cars Ever Compete In Same Market?

Tue Mar 15, 2005 7:37 am

Wow!  Wow!
That is a neat convertible.
I am sure the well connected members of the Communist party enjoyed nice summer drives along the Black Sea in one of these.
Drive around Odessa in one of these and score on all the young hot Ukranian & Russian babes.  Cool


Bring back the Concorde
 
Superfly
Topic Author
Posts: 37735
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Did These Luxury Cars Ever Compete In Same Market?

Thu Mar 24, 2005 2:39 am

Damn!
How could I forget the Toyota Century?!?!




Bring back the Concorde
 
tristarenvy
Posts: 2235
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2004 2:07 am

RE: Did These Luxury Cars Ever Compete In Same Market?

Thu Mar 24, 2005 6:34 am

Speaking of cool Toyota's, my high school girlfriend had a 1971 Toyota Crown. I've only seen one other in almost 30 years!
If you don't stand for SOMETHING, you'll fall for ANYTHING.
 
Alessandro
Posts: 4962
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2001 3:13 am

RE: Did These Luxury Cars Ever Compete In Same Market?

Sat Mar 26, 2005 9:10 am

Well, the Zil wasn´t for sale until the break-up of the Sovietunion, here´s
an used one for sale http://www.mobile.de/SIDW1.4eyLRIcb0...ch=pkw&top=4&id=11111111128292530&
55 K€uro seem a bit steep though...
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
57AZ
Posts: 2371
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 2:55 pm

RE: Did These Luxury Cars Ever Compete In Same Market?

Sat Mar 26, 2005 5:14 pm

You forgot the Cadillac Series 75 Limousine. It was a big seller for Cadillac up to the 1980s and was the only limousine that Cadillac actually manufactured itself. The big stretch limousines are based on commercial chassies that Cadillac manufactured for the coach builders, so they're not pure Caddies per se.
"When a man runs on railroads over half of his lifetime he is fit for nothing else-and at times he don't know that."
 
Superfly
Topic Author
Posts: 37735
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Did These Luxury Cars Ever Compete In Same Market?

Tue Mar 29, 2005 2:02 am

Alessandro:
7,0?
Ich habe gedacht, dass der Zil eine 7,8 Litermaschine gehabt hat.  Confused
Bring back the Concorde
 
Alessandro
Posts: 4962
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2001 3:13 am

RE: Did These Luxury Cars Ever Compete In Same Market?

Tue Mar 29, 2005 2:46 am

Well, email them and ask, 7 or 7,8 liter that´s still thirsty...
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
Superfly
Topic Author
Posts: 37735
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Did These Luxury Cars Ever Compete In Same Market?

Thu Mar 31, 2005 2:51 am

Thanks Alessandro.  Smile
Bring back the Concorde
 
PHLBOS
Posts: 6504
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2004 6:38 am

RE: Did These Luxury Cars Ever Compete In Same Market?

Thu Mar 31, 2005 3:10 am

Quoting Alessandro (Reply 16):
Well, email them and ask, 7 or 7,8 liter that´s still thirsty...

For sake of clarification and for those that may not already know, here are some U.S./metric engine size comparisions (I'm not 100% sure of the exact litre to cubic inch conversion factor):

Ford's 400 and 460 cubic inch engines in later years had a 6.6 and 7.5 litre listing and GM's 500 cid (last offerred to the public on the '76 Cadillac DeVille/Fleetwood and Eldorado lines) have 8.2 litre listing. Some of the Eldorados from the early '70s had a '8.2 litre' listing on the front fenders.

Edited for correction from 8.0 ltr. to 8.2 ltr.

[Edited 2005-03-30 19:13:40]
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
Superfly
Topic Author
Posts: 37735
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Did These Luxury Cars Ever Compete In Same Market?

Thu Mar 31, 2005 3:11 am

PHILBOS:
You mean 8.2 liters for Cadillac, right?
Bring back the Concorde
 
PHLBOS
Posts: 6504
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2004 6:38 am

RE: Did These Luxury Cars Ever Compete In Same Market?

Thu Mar 31, 2005 3:12 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 19):
You mean 8.2 liters for Cadillac, right?

You're right, I meant 8.2.

I have since edited the original post.

[Edited 2005-03-30 19:14:25]
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
acidradio
Crew
Posts: 1595
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2001 3:19 pm

RE: Did These Luxury Cars Ever Compete In Same Market?

Thu Mar 31, 2005 7:20 pm

GM sold an 8.2L engine for marine use a few years ago, don't know if it is still available with their recent large-scale dumping of the older engines for the new GM Modular engine platform. Hot rodders were buying up the 8.2L for automotive use. Needless to say, I'm sure you can move the world with one of those things. And watch your fuel gage move from F->E as you accelerate!

In 1986, when Gorbachev made a tour of the US, one of his stops was Minneapolis, where I live. Gorbachev got to fly AF1 (at the time the 707) on his stops and his cars were transported to all stops. He rode through Minneapolis in a Zil limousine. It was an entourage of police cars, Secret Service Suburbans, a Ford ambulance and Zil limos. It was the coolest motorcade to ever hit the streets of Minneapolis, probably even to this day. And that is even considering that Prince lives here (sometimes) too! Supposedly the Zil had a 7.0L V8 with 425-hp. Torque is probably a classified number.
Ich haben zwei Platzspielen und ein Microphone
 
JetService
Posts: 4611
Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2000 1:12 pm

RE: Did These Luxury Cars Ever Compete In Same Mar

Thu Mar 31, 2005 8:56 pm

Superfly, my guess would be they mostly competed in the Middle East. I only say that because that's where I remember seeing them the most on news clips. (That and Scotland, but they seemed to dig the Gremlins & Pacers.) Big grin

To all, just for clarification, I believe the big Caddy plant was actually 500.1 CID. Hey, with a monster like that, you have to get it all in there!
"Shaddap you!"
 
Superfly
Topic Author
Posts: 37735
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Did These Luxury Cars Ever Compete In Same Market?

Fri Apr 01, 2005 2:25 am

Acidradio:
Ever been to Paisley Park studios or jump in Lake Minnetonka naked?  Smile
Purple Rain reference


The 500cu" engine was used through out the 19880s and early 1990s for GMC's commercial freight & delivery vans.

A.net member Sccutler has one in his beautiful 1976 Cadillac Eldorado Convertible.  Cool
Bring back the Concorde
 
tristarenvy
Posts: 2235
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2004 2:07 am

RE: Did These Luxury Cars Ever Compete In Same Market?

Fri Apr 01, 2005 5:41 am

Hey, let's give the Diesel V-8 Caddy a nod....

Anybody?

Anybody?

Bueller?

Bueller?
If you don't stand for SOMETHING, you'll fall for ANYTHING.
 
Superfly
Topic Author
Posts: 37735
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Did These Luxury Cars Ever Compete In Same Market?

Fri Apr 01, 2005 5:47 am

Funny TriStar!  Silly

However, I don't think any of the full-sized super luxury cars ever came in diesel except the Mercedes S-class.
Bring back the Concorde
 
tristarenvy
Posts: 2235
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2004 2:07 am

RE: Did These Luxury Cars Ever Compete In Same Market?

Fri Apr 01, 2005 6:06 am

Uber-Luxury Diesels were M-B's mostly!

But, let's not forget the BMW Diesel powered Lincoln Mark VII! I'm not sure if the Town Car or bustle back Continental had that powertrain as an option. If I wasn't feeling lazy after a big lunch, I'd look that up....
If you don't stand for SOMETHING, you'll fall for ANYTHING.
 
Superfly
Topic Author
Posts: 37735
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Did These Luxury Cars Ever Compete In Same Market?

Fri Apr 01, 2005 6:13 am

Quoting TriStarEnvy (Reply 26):
If I wasn't feeling lazy after a big lunch, I'd look that up....

I got you covered.
The BMW diesel engine was an option on the Mark VII and Continental busle backs for the 1984-1985 model year only.
It was a turbocharged 2.4 liter 4 cylinder.
Awful isn't it?
Bring back the Concorde
 
tristarenvy
Posts: 2235
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2004 2:07 am

RE: Did These Luxury Cars Ever Compete In Same Market?

Fri Apr 01, 2005 6:26 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 27):
I got you covered.

You are my hero.

I forgot, as most everyone seemed to when they were NEW, that Lincoln even tried a Diesel. I was behind a Mark VII in about 1995, that let loose a huge cloud of smoke as it pulled away from a light. When I got near to it, again, I could hear that clatter, that diesels love to make. I went back and dug up some sales folders from that era, and there it was!

Wow. I guess they thought, just like Olds, that the diesel WAS the way of the future....
If you don't stand for SOMETHING, you'll fall for ANYTHING.
 
PHLBOS
Posts: 6504
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2004 6:38 am

RE: Did These Luxury Cars Ever Compete In Same Market?

Fri Apr 01, 2005 6:28 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 27):
I got you covered.
The BMW diesel engine was an option on the Mark VII and Continental busle backs for the 1984-1985 model year only.
It was a turbocharged 2.4 liter 4 cylinder.
Awful isn't it?

I thought the diesel engine was a 6-cylinder model.   Had this segment of the subject came to light last week, I would've checked a back issue Motor Trend 1984 Car Guide that's still in my mother's attic to verify (I was up there for my annual Easter visit). I don't believe Lincoln ever offered a 4-cylinder on any of their cars... at least not post WWII.

[Edited 2005-03-31 22:34:39]
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
Superfly
Topic Author
Posts: 37735
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Did These Luxury Cars Ever Compete In Same Market?

Fri Apr 01, 2005 6:29 am

TriStarEnvy:
At least Lincoln used a real diesel engine instead of converting a gas one. Too bad it was an underpowered BMW engine.
Bring back the Concorde
 
tristarenvy
Posts: 2235
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2004 2:07 am

RE: Did These Luxury Cars Ever Compete In Same Market?

Fri Apr 01, 2005 6:42 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 30):
At least Lincoln used a real diesel engine instead of converting a gas one. Too bad it was an underpowered BMW engine.

Agreed. Too bad it didn't have more zip.
If you don't stand for SOMETHING, you'll fall for ANYTHING.
 
Superfly
Topic Author
Posts: 37735
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Did These Luxury Cars Ever Compete In Same Market?

Sat Apr 02, 2005 4:29 am

Correct.

TriStarEnvy:
The BMW turbo diesel that was in the Lincoln Continental and Mark VII was an inline 6 cylinder.
Still a gutless engine.
Bring back the Concorde
 
tristarenvy
Posts: 2235
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2004 2:07 am

RE: Did These Luxury Cars Ever Compete In Same Market?

Sat Apr 02, 2005 5:13 am

Hey, we left out a pretty cool entry for this thread! And SOME were sold in the US of A, too.

http://i24.ebayimg.com/02/i/03/c1/0a/7e_3.JPG


Citroen CX
If you don't stand for SOMETHING, you'll fall for ANYTHING.
 
Superfly
Topic Author
Posts: 37735
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Did These Luxury Cars Ever Compete In Same Market?

Sat Apr 02, 2005 5:21 am

That is a nice car indeed!  Cool
I am not sure if it's up in the same leauge or not as the ones above.
Can a front wheel drive car wagon compete against these others?
Bring back the Concorde
 
tristarenvy
Posts: 2235
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2004 2:07 am

RE: Did These Luxury Cars Ever Compete In Same Market?

Sat Apr 02, 2005 5:51 am

As it probably broke every eight to ten minutes, I'd say..."no".

Speaking of expensive Citroens waiting to break....



Just looking at this picture made one of credit cards scream.....
If you don't stand for SOMETHING, you'll fall for ANYTHING.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider], LH748 and 7 guests