padcrasher
Posts: 1815
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 6:17 am

US Kidnaps In Europe

Sun Mar 13, 2005 2:31 pm

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7164399/

Well so much for International law. The US must have zero crediblity now. The question is, how long are Europeans going to keep electing these poodles that refuse to stand up to Bush?
 
padcrasher
Posts: 1815
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 6:17 am

RE: US Kidnaps In Europe

Sun Mar 13, 2005 2:43 pm

Lesson to World ( In case you haven't figured it out already)

Bush will will break International law when it benefits the US yet we will also consider breaking International law as a grounds for US hostile action.

The ends justify the means...now why don't you love us?....LOL
 
StowAway
Posts: 619
Joined: Fri Dec 17, 2004 10:48 am

RE: US Kidnaps In Europe

Sun Mar 13, 2005 3:30 pm

I won't lose any sleep tonight over it. If it prevents another terrorist attack, so be it. The cowards started this, and we are going to finish it.
A monkey's ass always talks crap.
 
b757300
Posts: 3914
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2000 10:27 pm

RE: US Kidnaps In Europe

Sun Mar 13, 2005 3:41 pm

Amazing that some people seem to be more interested in protecting terrorists and trashing the United States than protecting the world from the greatest threat we currently face.

Hopefully those in Europe who fit this description will wake up and face reality before it is too late. Europe needs to realize that Islamic terrorists are as much of a threat to them as they are to the United States. The Dutch are slowing waking up to the fact but others, such as Spain, would rather surrender and hope the terrorists won't strike again. Sadly it may take an attack that kills thousands before Europe wakes up and realizes that appeasing the terrorists or ignoring them isn't going to work.

Then of course there are those on the left in the United States who want to give the terrorists special rights (ACLU, CAIR and other such groups) and make sure they're treated like simple criminals. Of course their real reason is to try and attack the President but they seem to forget the majority of Americans agree with how the President is fighting the War on Terror. September 11th didn't wake them up to reality but they'll be the ones screaming the loudest should their be another terrorist attack.
"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
 
Mir
Posts: 19092
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: US Kidnaps In Europe

Sun Mar 13, 2005 4:16 pm

Yeah, it may be a way to combat terrorism, but if Italian agents were to come over here, swipe a cleric off the streets, and take him to an undisclosed location for questioning, do you think we'd just let it go? Of course not.

Now, this does bring up an interesting question, and I'd be interested in hearing what people think. Do the ends justify the means in the war on terror (and if you want to extend it to other things that's fine too)? I know my opinion on the matter, but I'd be interested in hearing what you all think.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
StowAway
Posts: 619
Joined: Fri Dec 17, 2004 10:48 am

RE: US Kidnaps In Europe

Sun Mar 13, 2005 4:26 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 4):
but if Italian agents were to come over here, swipe a cleric off the streets, and take him to an undisclosed location for questioning, do you think we'd just let it go? Of course not.

Refresh my memory on the last time a cleric from America was linked with killing thousands of innocent people. You win the prize, my friend. You win.
A monkey's ass always talks crap.
 
Mir
Posts: 19092
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: US Kidnaps In Europe

Sun Mar 13, 2005 4:35 pm

Well, he's not a cleric, but a certain Timothy McVeigh comes to mind as an American who was linked with killing a lot of people.

And I don't think it's farfetched at all to say that somewhere in the US there's someone plotting a large-scale attack right now.

We're not all saints.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: US Kidnaps In Europe

Sun Mar 13, 2005 4:39 pm

OK, so maybe "it's just me" - pardon the pun, couldn't resist . . .

I'm sure the United States is the ONLY entity in the world doing this, right? No one else would even consider it right? Every other country on this planet is fair and would never dare think to do this, right?

OK, I was just checking . . .
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
Mir
Posts: 19092
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: US Kidnaps In Europe

Sun Mar 13, 2005 4:45 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 7):
I'm sure the United States is the ONLY entity in the world doing this, right? No one else would even consider it right? Every other country on this planet is fair and would never dare think to do this, right?

Either our intelligence service's ability to keep things secret sucks, or else yes, we would seem to be the only ones doing it. I'm not saying that other countries wouldn't like to do something like this on occasion, but we never hear about them carrying through on it. So, my conclusion would be that they'd like to, but they know that it really isn't their place to detain people on the soil of other sovreign countires.

If someone knows of other countries doing something like this, please post a link. I'd be happy to be proven wrong. Dictator-run countries (North Korea, Iraq pre-invasion, etc.) don't count, though.

-Mir

[Edited 2005-03-13 08:46:36]
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
StowAway
Posts: 619
Joined: Fri Dec 17, 2004 10:48 am

RE: US Kidnaps In Europe

Sun Mar 13, 2005 4:48 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 6):
Well, he's not a cleric,



Quoting Mir (Reply 4):
it may be a way to combat terrorism, but if Italian agents were to come over here, swipe a cleric off the streets, and take him to an undisclosed location for questioning, do you think we'd just let it go?

If there is one thing I hate, it is sensationalism. banghead  Timothy McVeigh is FAR from a Cleric.

Anybody who does harm to innocent people are in the red beam. It doesn't matter who the hell you are.
A monkey's ass always talks crap.
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: US Kidnaps In Europe

Sun Mar 13, 2005 4:53 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 8):
Either our intelligence service's ability to keep things secret sucks, or else yes, we would seem to be the only ones doing it. I'm not saying that other countries wouldn't like to do something like this on occasion, but we never hear about them carrying through on it. So, my conclusion would be that they'd like to, but they know that it really isn't their place to detain people on the soil of other sovreign countires.

OK, let me get the emoticon ready that indicates SARCASM and post it here . . .

Mir - buddy - that entire post I made was a large vein of Sarcasm. Of COURSE we're not the only country doing this. Of course other countries do this and do it routinely.

TO think otherwise is to be naive.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
L-188
Posts: 29874
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: US Kidnaps In Europe

Sun Mar 13, 2005 5:17 pm

Guys, these "Kidnappings" are only allegations.

Fact is the cleric that was nabbed could have been grabbed by anybody.

Maybe he was picked up by the national pork council.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
Mir
Posts: 19092
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: US Kidnaps In Europe

Sun Mar 13, 2005 5:42 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 10):
Of COURSE we're not the only country doing this. Of course other countries do this and do it routinely.

First off, I did know it was sarcasm. That kind of stuck out like a sore thumb.  Smile
Now, if other countries are doing this too, fair enough, but then we need to get better about keeping things quiet. This is kind of embarassing on the world stage (though L-188 is right, there is no proof that we did it).

Quoting StowAway (Reply 9):
Timothy McVeigh is FAR from a Cleric

I never said he was one. Let me phrase it better - change "cleric" to "random guy off the street" in my initial post and that should be a better description of what I meant to say.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
adam
Posts: 456
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2005 11:45 pm

RE: US Kidnaps In Europe

Sun Mar 13, 2005 5:51 pm

Quoting L-188 (Reply 11):
Guys, these "Kidnappings" are only allegations.

Fact is the cleric that was nabbed could have been grabbed by anybody.

Maybe he was picked up by the national pork council.

From page 5 of the article in question:

Flight logs also support Masri's claim that he was flown out of Macedonia by U.S. secret agents. Aviation records show a U.S.-registered Boeing jet arrived in Skopje at 9 p.m. on Jan. 23, 2004, and departed about six hours later. Masri had provided German investigators with the same time and date.

The flight plan shows the aircraft was scheduled to go to Kabul, but later amended its route to include a stopover in Baghdad. The existence of the flight logs was first reported by Frontal 21, a news show on the German television network ZDF. A copy of the logs was obtained by The Washington Post.

Records show the jet, with tail number N313P, was registered at the time to a U.S. firm, Premier Executive Transport Services Inc., that records suggest is a CIA front company. The same firm owned another aircraft, a Gulfstream jet, that has been used in other rendition cases, including the one in Sweden.

Masri's attorney and investigators said they think he was abducted because his name is similar to that of an al Qaeda suspect, Khalid Masri, who allegedly played a crucial role in persuading the members of the Hamburg cell that carried out the Sept. 11 attacks to go to Afghanistan, where they first met Osama bin Laden.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Josep Manchado - Iberian Spotters

Texas: You'll come for the Alamo, You'll stay because you were wrongfully executed. - Conan O'Brian State Quarters
 
User avatar
Cadmus
Posts: 173
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2004 6:47 am

RE: US Kidnaps In Europe

Sun Mar 13, 2005 6:22 pm

I'm willing to tollerate acts such as this in the present circumstances, subject to certain safeguards, one of which must be the involvement of the host government in the process. The last thing we need is for our respective law enforcement agencies to end up investigating/attacking each other, rather than the people that they're supposed to be looking for.
Understanding is a three-edged sword
 
DIJKKIJK
Posts: 1782
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2003 11:03 pm

RE: US Kidnaps In Europe

Sun Mar 13, 2005 8:00 pm

Quoting B757300 (Reply 3):
Amazing that some people seem to be more interested in protecting terrorists and trashing the United States than protecting the world from the greatest threat we currently face.

What a load of crap! NO European country wants to protect terrorists any more than the US does. There is a difference between protecting a country from a REAL terrorist and pulling up people on the streets and forcing them to make statements under torture. The US would do well to understand that difference.

Quoting B757300 (Reply 3):
Hopefully those in Europe who fit this description will wake up and face reality before it is too late

FYI, Europe has been fighting terrorists much before the US even realized what it was all about. Why Europe, you can include Israel, India and several african nations amongst those which have been fighting terrorism before the US woke up to it on 9/11. The US must stop sermonzing and learn a thing or two from nations who have been doing this for a very long time.
Never argue with idiots. They will bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience.
 
StowAway
Posts: 619
Joined: Fri Dec 17, 2004 10:48 am

RE: US Kidnaps In Europe

Sun Mar 13, 2005 8:18 pm

Quoting DIJKKIJK (Reply 15):
FYI, Europe has been fighting terrorists much before the US even realized what it was all about. Why Europe, you can include Israel, India and several african nations amongst those which have been fighting terrorism before the US woke up to it on 9/11. The US must stop sermonzing and learn a thing or two from nations who have been doing this for a very long time.

Not an option. Every situation is unique. The U.S. must fight terrorism in the way that is most effective for saving lives.
A monkey's ass always talks crap.
 
Scorpio
Posts: 4767
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2001 3:48 am

RE: US Kidnaps In Europe

Sun Mar 13, 2005 8:38 pm

Quoting StowAway (Reply 16):
The U.S. must fight terrorism in the way that is most effective for saving lives.

And what exactly is it that makes you think that other nations don't do that?

Quoting B757300 (Reply 3):
Amazing that some people seem to be more interested in protecting terrorists and trashing the United States than protecting the world from the greatest threat we currently face.

Ah, the trademark B757300 response. Someone criticizes US actions, and they are immediately labelled terrorist supporters. Tell me, do you actually believe the crap you write yourself?

Quoting B757300 (Reply 3):
Then of course there are those on the left in the United States who want to give the terrorists special rights

Of course, no B757300 response would be complete without another far-fetched attack on 'The Evil Lefties'. You need a hobby.
 
DIJKKIJK
Posts: 1782
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2003 11:03 pm

RE: US Kidnaps In Europe

Sun Mar 13, 2005 8:45 pm

Quoting StowAway (Reply 16):
Not an option. Every situation is unique. The U.S. must fight terrorism in the way that is most effective for saving lives.

A weak justification, if ever. When countries with far fewer resources have been battling terrorism and saving lives , I don't see why the US can't learn from them and even better their methods with its superior resources, especially when islamic terrorists are the common enemy.

or maybe I do...
Never argue with idiots. They will bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience.
 
Klaus
Posts: 20578
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: US Kidnaps In Europe

Sun Mar 13, 2005 11:02 pm

When a self-proposed "beacon of hope and freedom" turns to gratuitous torture and lawlessness (and no, "outsourcing" doesn´t wash away any of the blood stains!), it is easily visible that this will be badly counterproductive in a situation as complex as it is.
Not invading Iraq and stabilizing Afghanistan instead would have made a huge difference; It could have prevented Afghanistan turning back into a druglord-controlled fertile territory for a resurgence of the Taleban from the neighbouring Pakistan - whose dictator is now one of Washingtons torture contractors and can´t be pressured in a situation as fragile as it is.
A few less massive strategic blunders could have made a world of difference, much more than a stupid, heavy-handed and grossly illegal abduction campaign through the CIA.
Congratulations, Mr. Bush and panicking apologists, you´re really "doing great"!  Yeah sure
 
JetService
Posts: 4611
Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2000 1:12 pm

RE: US Kidnaps In Europe

Sun Mar 13, 2005 11:26 pm

I never said he was one. Let me phrase it better - change "cleric" to "random guy off the street" in my initial post and that should be a better description of what I meant to say.

McVeigh is a bad example only because no one would've shed a tear if foreign intellegence had nabbed him and done bad things to to him. In fact, that would've been applauded. I better example: What if someone involved in organized crime were nabbed? Well honestly, I don't think most Americans would not take exception to this either. I predict the general conventional widsom would be 'he had it coming'.

Also PadCrasher, don't you think our European friends would reserve judgement until something is proven. You should give them more credit.
"Shaddap you!"
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: US Kidnaps In Europe

Sun Mar 13, 2005 11:32 pm

Quoting JetService (Reply 20):
no one would've shed a tear if foreign intellegence had nabbed him



Quoting JetService (Reply 20):
What if someone involved in organized crime were nabbed? Well honestly, I don't think most Americans would not take exception to this either.

Correct on both counts . . . just taking the detritus off the American streets. Certainly I wouldn't care . . .

Quoting Klaus (Reply 19):
heavy-handed and grossly illegal abduction campaign through the CIA.

Klaus, you're an intelligent individual. Do you believe the US/CIA is the only entity engaged in this kind of activty?
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
Scorpio
Posts: 4767
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2001 3:48 am

RE: US Kidnaps In Europe

Sun Mar 13, 2005 11:40 pm

Quoting JetService (Reply 20):
McVeigh is a bad example only because no one would've shed a tear if foreign intellegence had nabbed him and done bad things to to him. In fact, that would've been applauded. I better example: What if someone involved in organized crime were nabbed? Well honestly, I don't think most Americans would not take exception to this either.

If either of this happened, you BET there would be a HUGE political riot. Remember, this isn't about what the people would think, it's about this being ILLEGAL.
 
DIJKKIJK
Posts: 1782
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2003 11:03 pm

RE: US Kidnaps In Europe

Sun Mar 13, 2005 11:45 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 21):
Do you believe the US/CIA is the only entity engaged in this kind of activty?

Certainly not , ANCflyer. Many other intelligence outfits of other shady countries do it as well.

But I said it, other "shady" countries, not first world , developed countries with a rich bank of military/financial resources like the USA.

The CIA is an organization which played a huge role in winning the cold war, and one which has extensive experience in battling all forms of terrorists, insurgents, mad dictators etc, and one which has the most advanced communication and military technologies at its disposal.

Surely one would expect such an orgnization to do better than to indulge in something so amateur as picking up a smalltime suspect off the street and cart him off to a shady country to be tortured, isn't it ?

[Edited 2005-03-13 15:49:34]
Never argue with idiots. They will bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience.
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: US Kidnaps In Europe

Sun Mar 13, 2005 11:52 pm

Quoting DIJKKIJK (Reply 23):
But I said it, other "shady" countries, not first world , developed countries with a rich bank of military/financial resources like the USA.

What I'm hearing from you then is that only the USA - as you have described as being a . . .

Quoting DIJKKIJK (Reply 23):
developed countries with a rich bank of military/financial resources

. . . are involved in this type of activity. You don't think the UK does anything like this.

You must not get out often . . . as I mentioned earlier, if you don't believe it's occuring in other countries, you're quite naive.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
SATL382G
Posts: 2679
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2004 12:02 am

RE: US Kidnaps In Europe

Mon Mar 14, 2005 12:13 am

Quoting DIJKKIJK (Reply 23):
Certainly not , ANCflyer. Many other intelligence outfits of other shady countries do it as well.

But I said it, other "shady" countries, not first world , developed countries with a rich bank of military/financial resources like the USA.

First world European countries, like Germany, are not beyond doing a snatch and grab from a foreign country whose gov't is unwilling or unable to do the job.

In this case the subject took care of the issue himself, but it's clear the Germans intended to remove him from the country.

http://archives.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/e...ope/10/13/bosnia.janjic/index.html
"There’s nothing quite as exhilarating as being shot at and missed" --Winston Churchill
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: US Kidnaps In Europe

Mon Mar 14, 2005 12:20 am

The US have an official law permitting the use of undercover teams in other, even allied, countries to arrest terror suspects and suspects of murdering American citizens, without the permission of the local government. I forgot the official name of the law, but it was nicknamed the "Never again" law and was passed under Ronald Reagan after the Archille Lauro incident.
Back then Palaestinian terrorists hijacked the Italian cruise liner Archille Lauro in the mediterranean sea. During the hijacking they coldblooded murdered an handicapped, wheelchairbound, elderly Jewish American retired businessman. This murder was only discovered after the killers left the ship after negociations and the release of the other hostages in Cyprus and were on a plane to Egypt. US Navy fighters managed to apprehend the plane and to force it to land on a Nato base in southern Italy. There the terrorists had to be handed over tothe Italian authorities, because the airfield was under Italian jurisdiction. A few days later the Italian government caved in to terrorist threats and released the hijackers. As a result, Ronald Reagan´s government passed this act which permits (and requires) the arrest of terrorist suspects and murdersers of American citizens on foreign soil, which has been much critizised as a break of the souvereignity of other countries.

Jan

[Edited 2005-03-13 16:21:48]
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
Klaus
Posts: 20578
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: US Kidnaps In Europe

Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:46 am

SATL382G: First world European countries, like Germany, are not beyond doing a snatch and grab from a foreign country whose gov't is unwilling or unable to do the job.

In this case the subject took care of the issue himself, but it's clear the Germans intended to remove him from the country.


You must be really desperate if you´re trying to equate the two events.

Germany just happens to be one of the countries which are "a bit" more careful about violations of human rights and international law than most others.

The article you linked to described an attempt to openly apprehend a suspected war criminal under a standing indictment from the court which does in fact have jurisdiction, performed by the properly mandated force, applying no unreasonable force, preserving due process under the law.

The cases we´ve discussed here involved clandestine abduction of people suspected but not indicted, in some cases not even verified for identity, beaten, outside of any jurisdiction dragged to other countries, tortured and abused.

If that´s the same thing to you then you could just as well move to North Korea.

Have fun!  Yeah sure

[Edited 2005-03-13 19:03:39]
 
flybyguy
Posts: 1415
Joined: Sun Jun 27, 2004 12:52 pm

RE: US Kidnaps In Europe

Mon Mar 14, 2005 3:45 am

Quoting StowAway (Reply 2):
I won't lose any sleep tonight over it. If it prevents another terrorist attack, so be it. The cowards started this, and we are going to finish it.

Agreed.

Quoting B757300 (Reply 3):
Amazing that some people seem to be more interested in protecting terrorists and trashing the United States than protecting the world from the greatest threat we currently face.

Hopefully those in Europe who fit this description will wake up and face reality before it is too late.

Welcome to my respected users list. I've been saying this ever since I became an A.net member, no-one seems to yield, especially from the European side. It would seem that the Madrid bombings weren't enough for them to round up terrorist scum.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 11):
Guys, these "Kidnappings" are only allegations.

Fact is the cleric that was nabbed could have been grabbed by anybody.

Maybe he was picked up by the national pork council.

I have never laughed so hard in my life until "pork council" comment. You will be the death of me.  rotfl 
"Are you a pretender... or a thoroughbred?!" - Professor Matt Miller
 
SATL382G
Posts: 2679
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2004 12:02 am

RE: US Kidnaps In Europe

Mon Mar 14, 2005 3:53 am

Klaus,

I thought we were talking about a sovereign nation kidnapping a citizen of another sovereign nation.

As for the German kidnapping being clandestine, it likely was until NATO/The Hague issued a press release.

As for Human Rights the guy didn't exactly survive his encounter with the German "SFOR" troops did he?

I'll stand by my statement: "First world European countries, like Germany, are not beyond doing a snatch and grab from a foreign country whose gov't is unwilling or unable to do the job."

Don't put words in my mouth please.....

regards
"There’s nothing quite as exhilarating as being shot at and missed" --Winston Churchill
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: US Kidnaps In Europe

Mon Mar 14, 2005 4:20 am

If I read the article correctly, it was a UN War Crimes Tribunal order carried out by German troops under UN and Nato command, in a country under partial jurisdiction of the UN (else no SFOR there. Part of the agreement was tat the SFOR could act in the name of the UN War Crimes Tribunal), so it was completely legal. The only ones who complained about their souvereignity being breached would be the "government" of the "Republika Srbska" in Bosnia, which is not recognised internationally. The arrest operation probably went with full knowledge and support of the Bosnian government, which has formal jurisdiction over all of Bosnia´s territory, only at the moment they don´t have the means to enforce it in this particular region. So they are perfectly entiteled to ask the UN /NATO troops for assistance. BTW, if it would have succeeded, you would have seen it in the headlines as well. The suspect would have been shipped directly to The Hague for trial and not disappeared in some black hole. It is common police practice not to warn a suspect of an imminent arrest.

Jan

Edit for typo

[Edited 2005-03-13 20:22:16]
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
Scorpio
Posts: 4767
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2001 3:48 am

RE: US Kidnaps In Europe

Mon Mar 14, 2005 4:23 am

Quoting Flybyguy (Reply 28):
It would seem that the Madrid bombings weren't enough for them to round up terrorist scum.

You don't get out much, do you? FWIW, Europe has been actively battling terrorism for decades. We're far more experienced at this than the US, who only seems to have woken up after 9/11.

If you had followed the news every now and then, and knew ANYthing about Europe and terrorism at all, you wouldn't make such a ridiculous comment.
 
Klaus
Posts: 20578
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: US Kidnaps In Europe

Mon Mar 14, 2005 4:26 am

SATL382G: Klaus, I thought we were talking about a sovereign nation kidnapping a citizen of another sovereign nation.
Dictionary.com/kidnapping: "To seize and detain unlawfully and usually for ransom."
SFOR troops, acting in execution of binding laws and under proper legal guidelines, attempted to apprehend a wanted criminal. That is by definition no "kidnapping".
They did not act on behalf of some shady executive order by the german defense minister (which would be fully illegal under german law, by the way), but with explicit UN legitimation.

SATL382G: As for the German kidnapping being clandestine, it likely was until NATO/The Hague issued a press release.
It was on official record.

SATL382G: As for Human Rights the guy didn't exactly survive his encounter with the German "SFOR" troops did he?
He killed himself with a hand grenade in order to evade seizure. Which - considering the publicly controlled and verifyably humane UN jail in Den Haag and the absence of the death penalty - indicates that the only thing he had to fear would have been confrontation with the crimes he had committed.

Sorry, but with that link you´ve just fallen flat on your face and only embarrassed yourself.
 
L-188
Posts: 29874
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: US Kidnaps In Europe

Mon Mar 14, 2005 5:41 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 26):
Back then Palaestinian terrorists hijacked the Italian cruise liner Archille Lauro in the mediterranean sea. During the hijacking they coldblooded murdered an handicapped, wheelchairbound, elderly Jewish American retired businessman. This murder was only discovered after the killers left the ship after negociations and the release of the other hostages in Cyprus and were on a plane to Egypt. US Navy fighters managed to apprehend the plane and to force it to land on a Nato base in southern Italy. There the terrorists had to be handed over tothe Italian authorities, because the airfield was under Italian jurisdiction. A few days later the Italian government caved in to terrorist threats and released the hijackers. As a result, Ronald Reagan´s government passed this act which permits (and requires) the arrest of terrorist suspects and murdersers of American citizens on foreign soil, which has been much critizised as a break of the souvereignity of other countries.

Exactly, if there is anybody to blame for this law it is the Italians. The US got burned once, so never again.

Assuming of course that the CIA is behind these alleged kidnappings.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
N317AS
Posts: 941
Joined: Thu May 20, 2004 1:25 pm

RE: US Kidnaps In Europe

Mon Mar 14, 2005 5:54 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 7):
I'm sure the United States is the ONLY entity in the world doing this, right? No one else would even consider it right? Every other country on this planet is fair and would never dare think to do this, right?

You know, I've heard there are people in countries in the middle east that kidnap foreigners off the street, and just for laughs behead them while videotaping it.

HELL NO we aren't the only ones!!!!  Angry
Some people are like Slinkies. They bring a smile to your face when you push them down a flight of stairs.
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: US Kidnaps In Europe

Mon Mar 14, 2005 5:59 am

L-188,

On the other hand, how would you react if e.g. the British MI6 would send a snatch squad made up of Paras into Boston to apprehend an IRA sympathiser or fundraiser, whom the US wouldn´t have arrested, with the next news from him being in HMP Belfast Maze?

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
N5176Y
Posts: 309
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2005 10:39 am

RE: US Kidnaps In Europe

Mon Mar 14, 2005 6:03 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 35):
On the other hand, how would you react if e.g. the British MI6 would send a snatch squad made up of Paras into Boston to apprehend an IRA sympathiser or fundraiser, whom the US wouldn´t have arrested, with the next news from him being in HMP Belfast Maze?

I dunno how L-188 would react but I'd say "Good Riddance."
 
L-188
Posts: 29874
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: US Kidnaps In Europe

Mon Mar 14, 2005 6:13 am

MD11engineer.

Depends on who it was.

Ted Kennedy, no problem.  Silly
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
flybyguy
Posts: 1415
Joined: Sun Jun 27, 2004 12:52 pm

RE: US Kidnaps In Europe

Mon Mar 14, 2005 6:54 am

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 31):
FWIW, Europe has been actively battling terrorism for decades. We're far more experienced at this than the US, who only seems to have woken up after 9/11.

You say this but Europe has had terrorist acts smite them left and right since 9-11, while The United States of America has been free of attacks. We are the most sought after targets of terrorism in the world, but yet we remain safe while your side of the pond keeps getting attacked. I think we are doing pretty fine on this side of the Atlantic, mind you.

We must be doing something right. Not bad for an "inexperienced" nation.
"Are you a pretender... or a thoroughbred?!" - Professor Matt Miller
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: US Kidnaps In Europe

Mon Mar 14, 2005 8:07 am

Quoting Flybyguy (Reply 38):
We must be doing something right. Not bad for an "inexperienced" nation.

One thing you forget is that you have oceans between your country and any places from which most of the current terrorists hail. Most countries here either have land frontiers, large numbers of immigrants from Middle East, or big Muslim populations of their own.
Also it is a matter of priorities: Are you willing to sacrifice your freedoms and become a police state or are you willing to live with a certain level of crime?

Jan

[Edited 2005-03-14 00:08:41]
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
damirc
Posts: 726
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2004 8:43 am

RE: US Kidnaps In Europe

Mon Mar 14, 2005 8:08 am

Quoting Flybyguy (Reply 38):
You say this but Europe has had terrorist acts smite them left and right since 9-11, while The United States of America has been free of attacks. We are the most sought after targets of terrorism in the world, but yet we remain safe while your side of the pond keeps getting attacked. I think we are doing pretty fine on this side of the Atlantic, mind you.

Puzzled look. Alternate reality perhaps? The only attack was on 11.3.2004 in Madrid.

And regarding 9/11 ... the USA has been warned (amongst other) also by those stupid dimwit Europeans who can't tell a terrorist from a treehugger.

D.
 
Scorpio
Posts: 4767
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2001 3:48 am

RE: US Kidnaps In Europe

Mon Mar 14, 2005 8:09 am

Flybyguy,

Thank you very much for confirming you indeed do not know the first thing about Europe and terrorism. No use trying to argue with such simplistic reasoning.
 
Mir
Posts: 19092
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: US Kidnaps In Europe

Mon Mar 14, 2005 8:16 am

Quoting Flybyguy (Reply 38):
We are the most sought after targets of terrorism in the world, but yet we remain safe while your side of the pond keeps getting attacked.

While not as important as they once were, having oceans on the east and west sides of the country does help. But I think that it can mostly be attributed to our immigration policy. Europe's more liberal policy on immigration has its advantages, but is not as effective at stopping people who might commit terrorist acts. On the other hand, the US immigration policy is good for security, but results in a lot of people being unfairly turned away.

Which one is better? I couldn't really say. They both have their merits. I will say that I've felt perfectly safe every single time that I'm in Europe, and I certainly enjoy going through immigration there much more than I enjoy going through immigration here.

Quoting JetService (Reply 20):
McVeigh is a bad example only because no one would've shed a tear if foreign intellegence had nabbed him and done bad things to to him. In fact, that would've been applauded. I better example: What if someone involved in organized crime were nabbed? Well honestly, I don't think most Americans would not take exception to this either. I predict the general conventional widsom would be 'he had it coming'.

Let's say that a guy in the US is plotting against France. French agents come and grab him. I think that very few Americans would object to him being taken, but I think that a lot of Americans would object to him being taken by France, while on US soil. In fact, I'm almost positive that the Bush administration would not stand for that sort of thing.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
SATL382G
Posts: 2679
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2004 12:02 am

RE: US Kidnaps In Europe

Mon Mar 14, 2005 8:25 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 32):
Dictionary.com/kidnapping: "To seize and detain unlawfully and usually for ransom."

Read the other definitions on the same page

Quoting Klaus (Reply 32):
It was on official record.

I'm sure lots of clandestine ops are a matter of official record. So what? It's what's on the public record that counts.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 32):
He killed himself with a hand grenade in order to evade seizure. Which - considering the publicly controlled and verifyably humane UN jail in Den Haag and the absence of the death penalty - indicates that the only thing he had to fear would have been confrontation with the crimes he had committed.

The humane German "SFOR" troops could simply have waited him out. They knew where he was and likely knew that he would respond with force. He wasn't going anywhere. Oh but wait, they were probably in a hurry because the local constabulary would consider their action "illegal" or maybe, just maybe, the German gov't and EU weren't up for a lengthy trial with this guy.

For the record I have no problem with how the Germans handled Janjic. He was a human turd (1000+ rapes IIRC). But I would like to remind our European friends that sometimes their methods of operation aren't so high minded as they would have us believe.

[Edited 2005-03-14 00:31:13]
"There’s nothing quite as exhilarating as being shot at and missed" --Winston Churchill
 
SATL382G
Posts: 2679
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2004 12:02 am

RE: US Kidnaps In Europe

Mon Mar 14, 2005 8:35 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 35):
On the other hand, how would you react if e.g. the British MI6 would send a snatch squad made up of Paras into Boston to apprehend an IRA sympathiser or fundraiser, whom the US wouldn´t have arrested, with the next news from him being in HMP Belfast Maze?

How do we know this (or something similiar) hasn't already happened? Perhaps even with a wink wink nudge nudge from the US gov't. It's only the botched ops that we read about in the papers.

Besides the Brits tried sending troops to Boston a few years ago and got their butts kicked.  Smile
"There’s nothing quite as exhilarating as being shot at and missed" --Winston Churchill
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: US Kidnaps In Europe

Mon Mar 14, 2005 8:37 am

SATL382G,
If you´d bother to read the article you´d have found out that this guy was hiding in the "Republika Srbska", a region controlled by Serb militias and not recognised by anybody except maybe Serbia. Obviously the SFOR troops wanted to go in, get him and get out fast and didn´t want to wait until the militias got wind of them and attacked them from their rear. So "waiting out" wasn´t an option. This region is a part of Bosnia, only that currently the Bosnian government doesn´t have any powers in there. So the German unit was sent there to carry out the arrest. The local militias would have been against any arrest of whom they consider to be a war hero. They most likely would have hidden him somewhere else, like they do with Mladic and Karacidc. This is exactly what the SFOR is there for, give the Bosnian government some muscle, while at the same time looking for radical war criminals on behalf of the UN War Crimes Tribunal.
One thing they didn´t expect was him to blow himself up with a grenade rather than to surrender.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
Klaus
Posts: 20578
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: US Kidnaps In Europe

Mon Mar 14, 2005 8:43 am

SATL382G: Read the other definitions on the same page
Give it up. Every definition of "kidnapping" requires illegal activities. It does not apply to lawful police action.

SATL382G: I'm sure lots of clandestine ops are a matter of official record. So what? It's what's on the public record that counts.
It was the official execution of the lawful equivalent of an arrest warrant. On public record. Again, you´ve got nothing.  Yeah sure

SATL382G: The humane German "SFOR" troops could simply have waited him out.
You mean like some of the other war criminals who managed to slip away in the last minute? You´re grasping at the last straws to cover your retreat. Sorry, but no cigar.

SATL382G: Oh but wait, they were probably in a hurry because the local constabulary would consider their action "illegal" or maybe, just maybe, the German gov't and EU weren't up for a lengthy trial with this guy.
Neither Germany nor the EU had any interest of "getting" him - the german SFOR troops acted on behalf of the UN War Crimes Tribunal in Den Haag, mandated by the UN. And even though you do apparently have trouble understanding it, we take such distinctions quite seriously.

SATL382G: But I would like to remind our European friends that sometimes their methods of operation aren't so high minded as they would have us believe.
You have miserably failed to bring a single proof of that so far. You cannot expect to get your point accepted when your arguments are simply wrong.
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: US Kidnaps In Europe

Mon Mar 14, 2005 10:31 am

Quoting N317AS (Reply 34):
You know, I've heard there are people in countries in the middle east that kidnap foreigners off the street, and just for laughs behead them while videotaping it.

Interestingly, I don't think the US or any other "first world" country has beheaded anyone lately - even if the person was "kidnapped" using Klause conveniently provided dictionary definition.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 35):
On the other hand, how would you react if e.g. the British MI6 would send a snatch squad made up of Paras into Boston to apprehend an IRA sympathiser or fundraiser, whom the US wouldn´t have arrested,

Would applaud it - the US should have arrested the terrorist bastard and sent him/her to the UK to be dealt with.

Quoting Mir (Reply 42):
French agents come and grab him. I think that very few Americans would object to him being taken



Quoting Mir (Reply 42):
In fact, I'm almost positive that the Bush administration would not stand for that sort of thing.

The French agents come and grab him! Ha Ha Ha . . . okay, now that the joke is over . . .

Then once again, the Bush Administration should have assisted in the capture of the SOB, that simple. Snatching terrorists off the street should be a team effort - but if it's not going to be a team effort then clandestine operations must and will occur . . . period.

[Edited 2005-03-14 02:33:08]
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
Klaus
Posts: 20578
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: US Kidnaps In Europe

Mon Mar 14, 2005 11:19 am

ANCFlyer: I don't think the US or any other "first world" country has beheaded anyone lately
"Just" beaten to death, apparently - again! Sad And it would almost be great if anybody could still be surprised about it.
The New York Times: Army Details Scale of Abuse of Prisoners in an Afghan Jail
I´d be more careful with bold statements like yours under the circumstances. The abuse (even just the part of it we know about!) has become so frequent that it begins to merit the qualifier systematic.

ANCFlyer: even if the person was "kidnapped" using Klause conveniently provided dictionary definition.
Being verifiably guilty of anything has long stopped being a criterion for getting detained and abused, from the cases we know about.
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: US Kidnaps In Europe

Mon Mar 14, 2005 1:12 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 48):
"Just" beaten to death, apparently - again! And it would almost be great if anybody could still be surprised about it.

The New York Times: Army Details Scale of Abuse of Prisoners in an Afghan Jail

I read the article earlier today. I hope the troops responsible are prosecuted. No excuses; I make for them and I have none to offer.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 48):
I´d be more careful with bold statements like yours under the circumstances. The abuse (even just the part of it we know about!) has become so frequent that it begins to merit the qualifier systematic.

That is nonsense and you know it. There are thousands of troops deployed, and the dozen or so that are committing these crimes (and that's what they are) will be held accountable. It is far from 'systematic' as you put it. If you presume to think there will never be abuses in a war or warlike situation, then you're not as smart as I've thought you to be.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider], drew777, Google [Bot], jpetekyxmd80, N867DA and 22 guests