MD11Engineer
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China Passes Anti-secession Bill Against Taiwan

Mon Mar 14, 2005 10:43 am

The rubberstamp parliament of China passed an anti-secession bill, which allows and mandates the use of military force to bring independed-minded provinves in line.
http://66.194.40.250/static/dav/2005...ped/kelvin.king.lee.babble.on.html
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/PEK317944.htm

This includes Taiwan, which during the 20th century only has been governed from mainlan China for a handfull of years (for the rest of the time it was either a Japanese colony or defacto independend).

Over the last 20 years, Taiwan developed not only into a major economic force, but also became increasingly democratic. Taiwan is independend except for a formal declaration of independence.
At the same time China´s military are changing from a national defense force to a power projection force, complete with submarines and aircraft carriers and is becoming openly aggresive (like Chinese nuclear submarines probing Japanese waters). Concerning this I also blame the European governments (including the one of my own country) for a short sighted policy of allowing arms sales to China to keep domestic unemployment down.
As long as mainland China is not a democracy and as long as Chinese politicians see themselves on a historical mission for recreating the old Chinese empire I don´t see why we shouldn´t support Taiwan.
The current gridlock of the US in the Middle East is probably closely watched in Beijing and considered a weakness of the West, as are the refusal to deal with North Korea.

Jan
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dl757md
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RE: China Passes Anti-secession Bill Against Taiwan

Mon Mar 14, 2005 11:00 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Thread starter):
As long as mainland China is not a democracy and as long as Chinese politicians see themselves on a historical mission for recreating the old Chinese empire I don´t see why we shouldn´t support Taiwan.

The only reason I can think of not to support Taiwan is that it could very easily turn into WWIII. This isn't Iraq we're talking about. The aggressiveness that you pointed out is disturbing. It could be showboating to discourage any Allied attempt at interfering with China's repatriation of Taiwan. I seriously doubt though that China would back down if a standoff or a shooting war started over it.

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RE: China Passes Anti-secession Bill Against Taiwan

Mon Mar 14, 2005 11:05 am

Good, but China doesn't have any aircraft carriers.
 
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RE: China Passes Anti-secession Bill Against Taiwa

Mon Mar 14, 2005 11:06 am

Currently China is also claiming the Spratley Islands and another group of islands in the South China sea (also claimed by Vietnam, the Philippines and Malaysia, even though China is the most distant contestant) and a group of uninhabited islands off southern Japan. In the case of the Spratley islands, they already built a military base there, even though UN doesn´t accept it as Chinese property, and uses military force to prevent access to anybody else, though several other claimant nations have built up bases of their own.
http://www.premier-net.com/INEP/s/SpratleyIslands.html

Jan

Edit: Added link

[Edited 2005-03-14 03:18:13]
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MD11Engineer
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RE: China Passes Anti-secession Bill Against Taiwan

Mon Mar 14, 2005 11:16 am

Spaceman,

I stand corrected. While China had plans to obtain aircraft carriers in the past, it seems that for the moment these plans have been shelved, maybe in favour of a nuclear submarine fleet?
http://www.sinodefence.com/navy/surface/aircraftcarrier.asp

Jan
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RE: China Passes Anti-secession Bill Against Taiwan

Mon Mar 14, 2005 11:18 am

Yes, that is correct. China actually has little need for an aircraft carrier fleet.
 
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RE: China Passes Anti-secession Bill Against Taiwan

Mon Mar 14, 2005 6:19 pm

When Taiwan becomes a dominion of China, the west will do nothing. Isn't 80% of America's consumer manufacturing done overseas? With a majority of that being in China? Economic sanctions will cripple our economies. If we show force, they'll nuke us. If we hold political sanctions then we are fools because most industrialized nations in the world don't even have formal relations with Taiwan anyway.

The fact of the matter is that the Taiwan issue is a win win situation for China. Firstly, they will show their military might in influencing world affairs, secondly they can show that they don't need the rest of the world to survive and grow. Those who align with China after the Taiwanese domination will benefit greatly. I hope America will be one of those countries.
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RE: China Passes Anti-secession Bill Against Taiwan

Mon Mar 14, 2005 7:09 pm

Quoting Flybyguy (Reply 6):
Those who align with China after the Taiwanese domination will benefit greatly. I hope America will be one of those countries.

Great, there goes Wilson´s selfdetermination of the peoples. A democratic country is being sacrificed for business.

Jan
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RE: China Passes Anti-secession Bill Against Taiwan

Mon Mar 14, 2005 8:21 pm

Taiwan should declare independence NOW. China remains relatively weaker militarily (despite sheer volume of arms) and technologically behind, but it is catching up.

China will also not risk a war with Taiwan prior to the 2008 Olympics which is meant to be China's coming out party.
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RE: China Passes Anti-secession Bill Against Taiwan

Mon Mar 14, 2005 8:27 pm

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 8):
Taiwan should declare independence NOW.

Agreed.

I think China's passing of this Bill is simply posturing. World opinion of China would fall greatly if they imposed a military solution to Taiwan's declaration of independence.

I'm quite sure the entire "free" world would impose a sanction of some sort should China decide to intervene with Taiwans freedom movement.
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RE: China Passes Anti-secession Bill Against Taiwan

Mon Mar 14, 2005 8:29 pm

What would the US's response be if China really did start posturing aggressively? The US has given qualified support to Taiwan in the past, but would it go all the way to defend them if push came to shove?

No agenda behind that question, I'm curious!
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RE: China Passes Anti-secession Bill Against Taiwan

Mon Mar 14, 2005 8:36 pm

Here is another article with a comment from Japan´s government. If China keeps on pushing, it could become nasty in this region...

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...0314/ap_on_re_as/china_legislature

Jan
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RE: China Passes Anti-secession Bill Against Taiwan

Mon Mar 14, 2005 8:40 pm

Quoting Banco (Reply 10):
What would the US's response be if China really did start posturing aggressively?

Haven't got a clue, really. It's quite obvious what ever would happen must be diplomatic, force on force would be fruitless . . . since the US military is strapped to the nines in the Middle East thanks to the short sighted budget cutting fools in the 1990s. . . . and unecessary. Since the US is not the only country with a Dog in the Hunt - meaning we aren't the only importers of Chinese made goods - diplomatic pressures would probably work.

But it's anyones guess.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: China Passes Anti-secession Bill Against Taiwan

Mon Mar 14, 2005 9:29 pm

Actually, I think it could end up a bit like Pearl Harbour for the Japanese.
Back in 1935 Japan cut herself a big slice out of Northern China, which was in a civil war back then. Then in 1937 Japan started to expand towards the rest of China. Protests by the US and other western powers didn´t help, so the US, being Japan´s main supplier decided to cut off the supply of oil and steel in 1941, on which Japan was totally dependend to fight the war in China. Japan doesn´t want to let go of China due to loss of face involved and decides to annect most of southeast Asia, especially the oil fields in Indonesia (at this time Dutch East India) and the rubber plantations in Malaya (a British colony). To get access to southeast Asia, Japan has to get control over the Philippines as well, at this time an American colony. Japan attacks Pearl Harbour to take out the US Pacific fleet and hoirs later the Philippines.
All of it happened against the advice of senior Japanese naval commanders, especially Admiral Yamamoto, who, having gone to college in the US, considered such a move suicidical, but the hardliners around General Tojo pressed on, because they were too embarrased to withdraw from China, which by then they knew they couldn´t hold. The Japanese Army was not equiped and trained to fight a guerilla war, which the Chinese, especially Mao Zedong´s communists were specialised in. Add to this a feeling of superiority over their Asian neighbours plus massacres, and despite their propaganda of a Asia co-prosperity sphere, nobody believed them.

I think getting control over Taiwan is a similar matter of face loss to the Beijing government. The old generation of leaders around Deng Xiaopeng had their reputation of having fought in the civil war and revolution, but the new generation are all apparatchiks, pure technocrats. And they want their names entered into the history books, just like the older generation did. It is the last leftover of the civil war, which the founding generation around Mao didn´t succeed in. It might take quite a bit of pressure to get the Beijing government to accept an independence for Taiwan, if the Taiwanese population decides so.

Jan

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RE: China Passes Anti-secession Bill Against Taiwan

Mon Mar 14, 2005 9:37 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 13):
And they want their names entered into the history books, just like the older generation did.

One would assume these gents would want their names entered in the History books in a positive manner however. Invading Taiwan, or causing a war in the East China Sea over an island, that all things considered, is small potatoes in the big China scheme of things, doesn't seem to make sense - if the only reason is to save face and get your name in the books.

I don't dispute the theory, just find it bizarre - so bizarre in fact, you're probably right.
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RE: China Passes Anti-secession Bill Against Taiwa

Mon Mar 14, 2005 10:03 pm

SgtMaj,

I just read an interesting book about Japan in WW2 "Japan at War, an oral history", by Haruko Taya Cook and Theodore F. Cook. It is a collection of interviews with Japanese of the WW2 generation, from housewife to soldier, from factory worker to communist opposition member, school girl to war criminal and it shows the homefront side of Japan during WW2.
The brass got themselves stuck in the swamp of China, like the monkey, that got a nut in it´s hand and got itself trapped in a hole in a wall, it would be free if it would let go of the nut, but it can´t let go because of the nut.
The generals couldn´t leave China without being considered failures at home. They swallowed a piece that was too big for them, but retreating would have exposed all the propaganda published at home about a victorious Japanese military as a lie.
My girlfriend is of Filipino-Chinese extraction and I think I´ve learned a bit about the idea about loosing face by getting involved with her culture.
Once they have committed themselves to something, it is almost impossible for them to find an honourable way of backing off.

Jan
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RE: China Passes Anti-secession Bill Against Taiwan

Mon Mar 14, 2005 10:15 pm

Jan, My first wife (RIP) was Japanese. Her parents, more so her grandparents, were extremely concious about "face" and "honor". There will be no easy way to affect the removal of the Chinese from Taiwan if it comes to that.

Fortunately, as I mentioned, this bill that was passed I believe to be simple posturing. The Chinese have been playing this Taiwanese game for a long time. I have to think if they were extremely serious about taking Taiwan back into the fold, they'd have perhaps made their move already. Afterall, the US and other countries that have sided with Taiwan, aren't prepared to defend Taiwan militarily - regardless of our own posturing in that direction. It's like the "Who's got the Biggest Dick" contest that George Carlin uses in one of his comedy routines. As long as no one calls the others bluff, we're quite happy with the game.
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RE: China Passes Anti-secession Bill Against Taiwan

Tue Mar 15, 2005 4:12 am

With this bill, China has made clear its intention and will. That is they will defend Taiwan territory as their territory integrity and sovereignty. Not even 2008 Olympics is going to stop them as they have said so.
 
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RE: China Passes Anti-secession Bill Against Taiwan

Tue Mar 15, 2005 4:18 am

This is exactly what I suspect. With this law the Chinese government openly committed themselves. If Taiwan declares independence now and the PRC doesn´t react, the government members will be seen as paper tigers by their own population, and don´t forget, there are other regions in China looking for independence too.

Jan
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RE: China Passes Anti-secession Bill Against Taiwan

Tue Mar 15, 2005 4:21 am

Taiwan is so heavily defended now that China does not have the power to over-run it. They could heavily damage Taiwan, but the world would be outraged. Taiwan would also hit back hard in self-defense. China would lose the 2008 games and their economy would sink as foreign investment flees.

However, in 10-20 years China may have the military strength to take on take on Taiwan.

Taiwan should declare independence now. China would do alot of sabre rattling, perhaps blockade the island, perhaps invade Keh-moi (small Taiwanese islands near China - spelling?) but would fall short of a full invasion. A UN inspired peace initiative would then require China to accept Taiwan's independence.
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RE: China Passes Anti-secession Bill Against Taiwan

Tue Mar 15, 2005 4:31 am

This seems like saber rattling just to test out global responses.

Its just one big Chinese beta test of gauging China's power beyond its own sphere of dominance.
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RE: China Passes Anti-secession Bill Against Taiwan

Tue Mar 15, 2005 4:34 am

AFAIK, while most "normal"Taiwanese support independence, many Taiwanese business people, who in the past invested heavily into the PRC are afraid to loose their money if Taiwan declares her independence.

Jan
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Spaceman
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RE: China Passes Anti-secession Bill Against Taiwan

Tue Mar 15, 2005 4:54 am

It would be very unwise if Taiwan actually declared independence right now.
 
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RE: China Passes Anti-secession Bill Against Taiwan

Tue Mar 15, 2005 5:31 am

The tortoured relationship between Taiwan and the PRC goes back to the late 1940's and the Communist takeover of mainland China. Many of the non-communist Chinese led by Chang Kai-chek were forced to exile themselves and many of them ended up on Taiwan. Until the early 1970's this exile government, and in effect a dictatorship, claimed and was recognized in the UN as the only government of mainland China. While there was religious freedom and the rule of law as to business, there was strict anti-Communist government policy, including strict censorship.
In the early 1970's under pressure from many western counries, including the USA (under President Nixon), The UN decided, in one of it's most shameful acts, that the only recognized government of China is the Communist PRC government and the representation of China was changed from the Taiwan government to Peking. The USA and many western countries continued, even today, to recoginse Taiwan as a seperate political state, but for certain diplomatic recognition. In part this USA support for Taiwan grew out of our anti-communist policy.
Eventually Taiwan developed in the 1980's and 1990's their own representative democracy, and a very independent and strong economy. While far from perfect (there is some exploitation of imported low level workers), Taiwan became a leader in high-tech, becoming a leading source for the computer industry, especially in laptops. The tallest building in the world is in Taipai, Taiwan. The people of Taiwan have an excellent standard of living, they recognise the rule of law and they don't have a culture that encourages the abortion or death of female babies, unlike the PRC. In the last several years, and especially in the last very disputed Taiwan election, there was a very close race between the party that advocates independence and one that wants to keep the unique situation with the Mainland government.
Right now the PRC is scared of Taiwan, but they also need them for the massive investment monies and technology the PRC needs. Should Taiwan choose to go independent, I would expect the PRC would be vicous about taking them over. It would also be a horrendous problem for the western world, especially with trade with the USA and other countries. It to me would be like when Saddam Hussain took over Kuwait years ago.
 
dl021
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RE: China Passes Anti-secession Bill Against Taiwan

Tue Mar 15, 2005 5:40 am

Coming in to this late, but the problems presented to the PRC in invading the ROC are not the least that a couple of years ago a reporter asked the President whether he would defend Taiwan if they were attacked and he automatically said yes. The Red Chinese do not forget this stuff.

It would cost the PRC an incredible amount of money, manpower and good will if they invaded Taiwan causing all that disruption to the trade and investment upon which they rely. The cost in equipment alone would be staggering, but the other costs would be worse.

The Anti-Secession bill is one that the PRC wants to use to force change over the long term. THey have always taken the long view and think in terms of decades and centuries whereas they think that westerners think in terms of months and years, and they figure that eventually they will get the ROC to reunify with them.

WHat I truly think is that internal changes will force the government of the PRC to eventually change as the burgeoning capitalism continues to expand and the middle class grows. As more people demand more freedom the central government will lose more power over the coming years and decades and be forced to liberalize and democratize or lose power completely. This trend has been speeding up since the last of the Long Marchers have died off, and the civilians in government chafe already at the Generals in charge of the industries who need the civilians to help them run things.

Taiwan needs to continue to be supported by us, as the agreements stated they would. The US always said that they would support the ROC and provide them with the means to defend themselves as well as trade with them. We should support the Republic, even if we won't call them that.
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wn700driver
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RE: China Passes Anti-secession Bill Against Taiwan

Tue Mar 15, 2005 5:45 am

The fact of the matter is that the Taiwan issue is a win win situation for China. Firstly, they will show their military might in influencing world affairs, secondly they can show that they don't need the rest of the world to survive and grow. Those who align with China after the Taiwanese domination will benefit greatly. I hope America will be one of those countries.


Other way around. The rest of the world doesn't need PRC China. If westerners are forced to buy their products elsewhere, the will do what a fickle capitalist market invariably does. They will buy elsewhere. The only party to lose anything will be the PRC. And with massive internal treasury deficits of their own, they won't be able to hold out for long. That's one thing you can always trust Dedicated Communists to do. Know nothing about how money really works.

As for military might, the US certainly is tied up elsewhere. But that does not have to remain so if Taiwan's independence is threatend. At that point, all the "might" in the world won't save a backward military like the PRC's from losing a lot of face to a relatively small coalition force.
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RE: China Passes Anti-secession Bill Against Taiwan

Tue Mar 15, 2005 6:23 am

China is starting to worry me and more. As the days pass you see more headlines on the news about increased wealth for China. Most cheap goods are manufactured there and they are also trying to attract other more technologically advanced industries. This means that the old industrial countries such as the UK, USA, Germany, France, Japan and so on will lose out even more to the cheaper labour costs that can be achieved in China.

I personally believe that this huge growth in China is a negative for the rest of the Western world and if continues at the rate at which it is, the USA will no longer be the major super power in the world, China will.

I have nothing against countries trying to prosper and grow so that they become richer economically thus leading to social improvements but the Chinese government seem to be very hard line and believe that they are the mighty force in the world.

The only way to slow the growth of China is to support our local industries at home and to impose sanctions on China. If all of us do this, China doesn't really have anywhere else to turn.

To be honest the whole Asian region, bar Japan seem to be anti-west, especially towards the Americans. For example, in the mid to late 1990's in Malaysia the deputy prime minister who was a fundamentalist Muslim wanted to remove the European, North American and Japanese companies along with the foreign workers, these included my girlfriend's family. Don't forget the constant problems in the Philippines and Indonesia as well as in many other countries in the region.

If China were to invade Taiwan in an attempt to take over the country, I believe that the UN would have to have some sort of combined military force to combat the Chinese.

Regards,
Chris
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dl021
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RE: China Passes Anti-secession Bill Against Taiwan

Tue Mar 15, 2005 7:32 am

I would agree except that basic economics and human nature will see the Chinese government busily attempting to appease its people as they make more and more demands for economic betterment at the citizen level as well as greater personal freedom. This is what they have in store over the next ten to 15 years whether they are aware of it or not.

The minute we saw the "Goddess of Liberty" and the man standing in front of the tank we knew that the people of China want the same freedoms as everyone else, and they will eventually get it.
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RE: China Passes Anti-secession Bill Against Taiwan

Tue Mar 15, 2005 7:34 am

I agree with the assessment that the ROC should declare independence now.
The PRC basically has its hands tied. As it attempts to establish itself as an economic and political power, taking any action against the ROC would severely damage the PRC's political and economic position.
They would lose the Olympics, First World investment would flee, crippling the economy, sanctions would likely drop, and a coalition of the United States, ROK, Japan, and ROC military would work to liberate ROC territory. I would also be unsurprised to see Europe and Israel joining said coalition.
The PRC cannot stand up to that type of retaliation. Any intervention by other nations would also probably include strikes on government and military institutions on the PRC mainland, a massive embarrasment for the PRC.
Perhaps East Turkestan, Tibet, or even Inner Mongolia would attempt to gain their independence while China was militarily and politically preoccupied with China.
The end result would be a massive setback to China's level of economic and political development, likely to the level of bumbling idiocy that was Mao's Great Leap Forward.
 
bill142
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RE: China Passes Anti-secession Bill Against Taiwan

Tue Mar 15, 2005 8:18 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 7):
Those who align with China after the Taiwanese domination will benefit greatly. I hope America will be one of those countries.

I hightly doubt it. As far as I know the US is pro Taiwan and will more then likley stay that way.

Quoting Banco (Reply 10):
What would the US's response be if China really did start posturing aggressively? The US has given qualified support to Taiwan in the past, but would it go all the way to defend them if push came to shove?

From what I've heard the US is required to help Taiwan should push come to shove. What makes this more interesting is that Australia is required to help the US courtesy of the ANZUS Treaty. However for economic and trade reaons Australia is trying to keep a foot in each country. And we've all seen Australia's willingness to go fight GWB's wars.
 
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RE: China Passes Anti-secession Bill Against Taiwan

Tue Mar 15, 2005 3:06 pm

Quoting Bill142 (Reply 29):
And we've all seen Australia's willingness to go fight GWB's wars.

Correct me if I am wrong, but this does not appear to be a "GWB war." This seems more like a PRC-ROC war?


Chris
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MD11Engineer
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RE: China Passes Anti-secession Bill Against Taiwan

Tue Mar 15, 2005 9:31 pm

Bill,

Excuse me, but if you quote somebody I quoted, please do so directly.

Quoting Bill142 (Reply 29):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 7):
Those who align with China after the Taiwanese domination will benefit greatly. I hope America will be one of those countries.

This was NOT my opinion, but Flybyguy´s opinion (Reply #6)

Jan.
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RE: China Passes Anti-secession Bill Against Taiwan

Tue Mar 15, 2005 9:54 pm

Quoting Christa (Reply 26):
If China were to invade Taiwan in an attempt to take over the country, I believe that the UN would have to have some sort of combined military force to combat the Chinese.

Sure, UN military action against China approved by the Security Council. Oh wait... China has veto power in the Security Council! dreamworld dude.
 
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RE: China Passes Anti-secession Bill Against Taiwan

Tue Mar 15, 2005 10:30 pm

Well, it happened once during the Korean conflict in 1949, that a military UN mission was started AGAINST Russian veto (China at this time was represented by Taiwan in the UN). But I think that Russia would veto this time as well, together with China, because they too might consider it "an internal matter", mainly out of fear to set an example for their own breakaway provinces.

Jan
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RE: China Passes Anti-secession Bill Against Taiwa

Tue Mar 15, 2005 11:13 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 33):
Well, it happened once during the Korean conflict in 1949, that a military UN mission was started AGAINST Russian veto

Do you know exactly why the UN force in Korea was approved?

When North Korea invaded the South, the Soviet Union was boycotting the UN security council so the Soviet delegate didn't attend the SC meetings, thus allowing the US resolution to pass without being vetoed by the Soviet Union. Would the Soviets been participating in the SC at that time, today we would proabably have only one Korea under the leadership of KIM-JUNG-IL
 
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RE: China Passes Anti-secession Bill Against Taiwan

Wed Mar 16, 2005 1:11 am

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 34):
today we would probably have only one Korea under the leadership of KIM-JUNG-IL

That I believe may would have been the case, however that is not what the Koreans in the south wanted as well as the Western allies. China does not deserve a seat on the UN security council, it's record with human rights is disgraceful. I believe that China is still the enemy and will remain the enemy until communism is removed.

On the Russia issue, surely if they are SUCH good friends with the West now, why don't they support the West on this issue? I tell you why not, as Russia likes to deal with dictators and corrupt governments, e.g. China.

If China invades Taiwan expect military retaliation..for this reason I believe they will not invade Taiwan. Don't forget, China are supposed to be holding the Olympics in 2008.. if they were to invade Taiwan before this date they would not have the Olympics there. Even if they did still manage to hold it there many of the Western countries would not participate, for example the USA Team in Moscow a few years back.

Regards,
Chris
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RE: China Passes Anti-secession Bill Against Taiwan

Wed Mar 16, 2005 1:18 am

Quoting Christa (Reply 35):
I believe that China is still the enemy and will remain the enemy until communism is removed.

Why is communism "the enemy" ? Aggressive nationalist expansionism is nothing to do with communism and is far more of a threat. Your statement is particularly naive.

I reckon now is the time for Taiwan to call China's bluff and declare independence. This hanging about undecided, waiting for China to move in and take over helps nobody. Do it, get it over with, if China is going to invade, they'll invade, nobody can do a damn thing about that. If they do invade, that means they would have invaded at some time in the future anyway, because they know that there is no way Taiwan will voluntarily return to the PRC fold. Bite the bullet, get it over with and see what happens.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: China Passes Anti-secession Bill Against Taiwan

Wed Mar 16, 2005 1:20 am

This is why IMO the veto right for the 5 permanent members of the UN SC is obsolete.
Lately it has been mainly used to enforce domestic issues for some of them. May I remind of Darfur (Sudan) where a UN mission was vetoed by Russia and China, because they consider it the perfect right of any country to use excessive military force against breakaway provinces? For them the Darfur crisis is an "internal matter" of Sudan, which is to be solved at the discretion of the Sudanese government, with any means it deems necessary.
Both Chinese and Russian governments are afraid that any UN decission could give a legal precedence for some of their own provinces to break away. Another example would be Tibet, China invaded Tibet in 1949 with the reasoning that hundreds of years ago it was part of the Chinese empire.
Bozh Korea and Vietnam had to pay tribute to the Chinese empire up to the mid 19th century.

Jan
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jaysit
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RE: China Passes Anti-secession Bill Against Taiwan

Wed Mar 16, 2005 1:42 am

That's one thing you can always trust Dedicated Communists to do. Know nothing about how money really works.

Except that the so-called dedicated communists in the PRC now are all capitalists now. You don't create an economy with a 10% growth rate by being a fool with no idea on how money really works.

China is just testing the waters on how deep its political and economic clout really are. And I doubt if Taiwan which has seen greater economic ties with the PRC will be so foolish as to declare full independence and risk an economic embargo from one of its largest markets.
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dl021
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RE: China Passes Anti-secession Bill Against Taiwan

Wed Mar 16, 2005 1:44 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 33):
Well, it happened once during the Korean conflict in 1949, that a military UN mission was started AGAINST Russian veto

I think that someone beat me to it but the Soviets abstained from this vote and learned to not do that anymore.

As far as your feelings on the UN Permanent Security Council, I would agree if the US was not a member and/or we did not have the UN putting the Libyan delgate as chair of the Human Rights Commission.
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Christa
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RE: China Passes Anti-secession Bill Against Taiwan

Wed Mar 16, 2005 1:53 am

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 36):
Why is communism "the enemy" ? Aggressive nationalist expansionism is nothing to do with communism and is far more of a threat. Your statement is particularly naive.

I am against the idea of Communism and also the principles that the Chinese government have towards issues. China has made it clear that they do not want to become democratic when a great amount of people want to become democratic.

I am sorry but many of the statements you make are naive, however I do not say they are, why? As it is your opinion. This is my opinion.

I believe that involvement with China benefits the West, but the West personally must remain the dominant force; military, economically and socially.

Regards,
Chris
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MD11Engineer
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RE: China Passes Anti-secession Bill Against Taiwan

Wed Mar 16, 2005 3:06 am

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 34):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 33):
Well, it happened once during the Korean conflict in 1949, that a military UN mission was started AGAINST Russian veto

Do you know exactly why the UN force in Korea was approved?

When North Korea invaded the South, the Soviet Union was boycotting the UN security council so the Soviet delegate didn't attend the SC meetings, thus allowing the US resolution to pass without being vetoed by the Soviet Union. Would the Soviets been participating in the SC at that time, today we would proabably have only one Korea under the leadership of KIM-JUNG-IL

Luis and Ian,

I stand corrected on the Korean issue.

Concerning China being communist, IMO the nomenklatura moved away from communism and socialism long ago. The only thing communist is their rethoric, mainly to appease the empoverished of their own population. The ruling class in China realised that their communist model failed, but they also realised that it is nicer to be a boss in the capitalist system than a worker, so, by being authoritarian, they want to make sure that it stays this way. In which other country can the boss of a factory be at the same time the union leader? They also still use the propaganda, that since communisn is established in China, protection of labour by e.g. trade unions and labour laws is not necessary anymore.

I also think that the expansive rethoric is mostly done to offer a vent to the disgrunteled population at home, similarly Argentine´s Exdictator Galtieri used the falklands issue to move attention away from domnestic issues.

Jan
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wn700driver
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RE: China Passes Anti-secession Bill Against Taiwan

Fri Mar 25, 2005 7:13 am

Except that the so-called dedicated communists in the PRC now are all capitalists now. You don't create an economy with a 10% growth rate by being a fool with no idea on how money really works.

That's a bit misleading. That growth rate is happing only because there was no economy before. So taken in that light, any growth rate will look impressive.
As for them being capatalists, well, they're not that either. Much if their manufacturing base is based on products that have been puchased & reverse-engineered.
Their a lot like the poor cousin up the road who suddenly turns up with a lot of xerograhoed bank notes, and expects everyone to believe he's actually gotten a job, as opposed to being the half-assed counterfitter he really is.
The chinese have not learnt how capatalism works, but rather just the basics of poorly disguised theivery.
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