KiwiNanday
Topic Author
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Commercial Hydrogen Vehicle On Sale In 2012

Thu Mar 17, 2005 9:00 pm

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...=1&u=/nm/autos_daimler_hydrogen_dc

BRUSSELS (Reuters) - DaimlerChrysler's first hydrogen-powered car using fuel cell technology will be on sale from 2012, a company executive said on Wednesday.

The firm has sent 60 Mercedes-Benz A-Class cars to Japan, Germany, Singapore and the United States for tests. Many car companies are developing hydrogen-powered cars to help wean the globe off diminishing oil supplies.

The Mercedes car uses fuel cell technology where electricity is generated through the chemical reaction between hydrogen and air, emitting only water vapor.

"It (commercialization) will start in 2012," Herbert Kohler, Vice President of the Body and Powertrain research unit at DaimlerChrysler told reporters in Brussels, on the margins of a hydrogen car technology exhibition.
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Alessandro
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RE: Commercial Hydrogen Vehicle On Sale In 2012

Fri Mar 18, 2005 2:34 am

Mazda is investing in the technology, converting the only wankel-engined car produced now to hydrogen, see http://www.mazda.com/publicity/release/200502/0216e.html
Sovietunion tested both TU-154 and Mil-8 to be partly run on hydrogen...
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goCOgo
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RE: Commercial Hydrogen Vehicle On Sale In 2012

Fri Mar 18, 2005 7:27 am

Of course, you won't be able to fill it up with fuel then. They fuel cell technology just about out there. The technology to mass-produce (cheaply), distribute, and store hydrogen is not.
"Why you fly is your business, how you fly is ours"
 
FlyVirgin744
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RE: Commercial Hydrogen Vehicle On Sale In 2012

Fri Mar 18, 2005 7:35 am

Doesn't it take a lot of oil to produce "pure" hydrogen?
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AA777
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RE: Commercial Hydrogen Vehicle On Sale In 2012

Fri Mar 18, 2005 7:46 am

Its only 2005.... thats seven more years. 10 dollars says it wont be out till 2015. CAR Companies rarely meet their projected deadlines.... BMW is always late etc...anyhow...it might be one of those things that fizzles out-- remember the electric cars-- of the mid 90's. But that comes back a few years later. Anyhow, if hybrids grow in popularity, it will help the fuel consumption A LOT... Now.... how to fix fuel consumption in airplanes....

-AA777
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Commercial Hydrogen Vehicle On Sale In 2012

Fri Mar 18, 2005 7:52 am

Theoretically hydrogen generation would be an option for today´s oil producing countries in the Middle East. They are sited in a region with lots of sun light. They could set up huge solar farms in the desert and use the electricity to electrolyse water. The resulting hydrogen gas could be liquified and transported e.g. to Europe on slightly converted Liquified Natural Gas tankers (the type used to transport methane type natural gas). The temperature of liquid hydrogen is a bit lower than the temperature of liquid methane.
Another option would be countries with water resources (hydroelectric power).

Also, even if hydrogen would be generated using conventional plants, in most cases big stationary plants work more efficiently than small installations, so it would decrease pollution.

Jan
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Mir
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RE: Commercial Hydrogen Vehicle On Sale In 2012

Fri Mar 18, 2005 8:15 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 5):
Theoretically hydrogen generation would be an option for today´s oil producing countries in the Middle East.

I wonder if some forward-thinking people will set up things like this. Could keep their pockets full for decades if they can make cheap hydrogen.

-Mir
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NWADC9
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RE: Commercial Hydrogen Vehicle On Sale In 2012

Fri Mar 18, 2005 8:24 am

Quoting FlyVirgin744 (Reply 3):
Doesn't it take a lot of oil to produce "pure" hydrogen?

Yes. That's why I think hydrogen cars are pathetic. The amount of pollution making the hydrogen would be equivalent to that car running on fuel. It's pointless.
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lehpron
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RE: Commercial Hydrogen Vehicle On Sale In 2012

Fri Mar 18, 2005 8:25 am

That would be so ironic, to loosen our grip on MidEast oil only to become dependent on MidEast hydrogen.  Silly
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777236ER
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RE: Commercial Hydrogen Vehicle On Sale In 2012

Fri Mar 18, 2005 8:32 am

Quoting NWADC9 (Reply 7):
Yes. That's why I think hydrogen cars are pathetic. The amount of pollution making the hydrogen would be equivalent to that car running on fuel. It's pointless.

Not on a large scale it wouldn't.

Anyway, bio fuel is the obvious, cheap and non-CO2 emitting solution.
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goCOgo
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RE: Commercial Hydrogen Vehicle On Sale In 2012

Fri Mar 18, 2005 8:46 am

Right now, just about all hydrogen is produced from oil. Producing oil by electrolysis is too energy intensive at this point. The article says that Europe alone would need 50 Million tons of hydrogen. What do you think the world would need, 1 Billion tons. Pave the Sahara with solar panels. You still won't get enough power. For electrolysis to work, nuclear power would be necessary. Of course, what we really need is a Dyson Sphere, but that's not happening in the this millennium.
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lehpron
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RE: Commercial Hydrogen Vehicle On Sale In 2012

Fri Mar 18, 2005 9:03 am

Quoting GoCOgo (Reply 10):
You still won't get enough power. For electrolysis to work, nuclear power would be necessary. Of course, what we really need is a Dyson Sphere, but that's not happening in the this millennium.

Ahem...Geothermal? Within 50 years they could be anywhere on the planet, preferably where the Earth's crust is thinnest but stable. The only way we could run out of energy is if the planet decided to die - that is 4 BILLION years from now. I suppose there is no hurry... Yeah sure
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
 
goCOgo
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RE: Commercial Hydrogen Vehicle On Sale In 2012

Fri Mar 18, 2005 12:09 pm

Quoting Lehpron (Reply 11):
Ahem...Geothermal?

There is not currently an effective and efficient way to turn geothermal heat into electricity. If there were, wilderness areas would function off geothermal, not generators. There may be many alternative forms of energy out there, but the challenge is getting them in usable forms.

Quoting Lehpron (Reply 11):
The only way we could run out of energy is if the planet decided to die

Um, the planet is not "alive" now. While there in a crap-load of energy down there, whats there is there and that's it. It does not continue to produce energy.
"Why you fly is your business, how you fly is ours"
 
MxCtrlr
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RE: Commercial Hydrogen Vehicle On Sale In 2012

Fri Mar 18, 2005 6:23 pm

I remember reading somewhere that scientists had discovered how to trigger pond scum into making hydrogen at will, thereby side-stepping the pollution issue. I could be mistaken about this but I seem to clearly remember seeing that somewhere...

Edit: As a matter of fact, I was correct. http://lifesciences.missouri.edu/feature-stories/pondscum.htm

MxCtrlr   
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[Edited 2005-03-18 10:25:23]
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Commercial Hydrogen Vehicle On Sale In 2012

Fri Mar 18, 2005 7:15 pm

I'm sure the day will come when oil fired vehicles are obsolete, if not illegal. I'm fine with all that, and would even today, consider an alternate source of fuel type vehicle . . . IF it could meet me requirements. It must have the size, weight and stability of a BAFDT. It my be able to pull, at will, without strain, 20,000 pounds in, around and through Alaskan terrain (and Yukon, BC and NW Territories too). It must be all wheel drive. It should be at least a 4 door and have a covered cargo box capable of carrying anything I deem necessary to carry, beginning with my current basic load of fuel cans (what ever form they may take), water, emergency rations, first aid kit, spare tires, survival gear, and mountain bike rack. IF someone can produce it, and it's dependable, and I can get fuel generally anywhere, I'll hop on the alternate fuel vehicle bandwagon. Until then, I'll keep pissing off the bunny huggers and adding to the profits of the oil companies and Ford.
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sebolino
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RE: Commercial Hydrogen Vehicle On Sale In 2012

Fri Mar 18, 2005 7:30 pm

Quoting NWADC9 (Reply 7):
Yes. That's why I think hydrogen cars are pathetic. The amount of pollution making the hydrogen would be equivalent to that car running on fuel. It's pointless.

This just proves that you are brainwashed by your president and his team.
There are other source of energy on earth than oil ! Learn a bit.
Solar, wind, agricultural oil, tidle are huge possible sources of energy.
Of course nuclear is another usable right now.
 
SpinalTap
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RE: Commercial Hydrogen Vehicle On Sale In 2012

Fri Mar 18, 2005 8:30 pm

At the moment the problem is hydrogen is made from natural gas or oil. What I can't understand is even if there were cheap supplies of electricity why you would want to convert perfectly useful electrical energy that could be used to power an electric car in to chemical energy (hydrogen), that you would then use in a fuel cell to produce (guess what) electrical energy  banghead . The only possibility I see to use hydrogen as a fuel is if it was produced biologically as MxCtrlr mentioned. However hydrogen has other problems. Storage is the main problem, hydrogen is the smallest molecule and therefore is very prone to leak. Hydrogen causes reactions in the atmosphere to produce greenhouse gases so global warming won't necessarily end.

Biofuels would seem to have more of a future in the shorter term. Biodiesel does not require any further infrastructure for fuel delivery and diesel engines are well developed. Other biofuels, bioethanol (actually used in Brazil I believe) and biomethane in particular, are also a possibility.
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SK A340
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RE: Commercial Hydrogen Vehicle On Sale In 2012

Fri Mar 18, 2005 10:44 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 5):
Theoretically hydrogen generation would be an option for today´s oil producing countries in the Middle East. They are sited in a region with lots of sun light.

I've somewhere red that Iceland is going to be an all hydrogen society in not too many years. They sure have the energy (and access to water) to produce it, but the question still remains; How is it going to be stored?

Also, what's better: doing like Mercedes (and many other) and let the hydrogen pass a fuel cell and create electricity and then let electric engines do the job or do like BMW and use hydrogen in a internal combustion engine (like in a diesel or gasoline powered car). Also, how does BMW's hydrogen car work? Does it use the Otto-cycle or the Diesel-cycle?

/Micke
 
Alessandro
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RE: Commercial Hydrogen Vehicle On Sale In 2012

Fri Mar 18, 2005 11:16 pm

Spinaltap, tried out in Sweden, problem with cold, the bio-fuel tend to become
stale in below Celcius.
Also LNG is located in many remote areas where aviation and other fuel have
to be shipped, also a lot LNG burnt on off-shore rigs while pumping up oil,
all this could be used...
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Airlinerfreak
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RE: Commercial Hydrogen Vehicle On Sale In 2012

Sun Mar 20, 2005 6:02 am

Next it will be Hydrogen Fuel celled Airplanes. But what I find interesting is where they are going to get these huge amounts of hydrogen.
 
FlyVirgin744
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RE: Commercial Hydrogen Vehicle On Sale In 2012

Sun Mar 20, 2005 7:28 am

Quoting Sebolino (Reply 15):
This just proves that you are brainwashed by your president and his team.

Actually Sebolino, I think bringing up the fact that hydrogen production needs oil is being OPPOSITE of the president. The prez technically could support hydrogen when really he knows he'll get just as much profits from oil. When people hear hydrogen they think clean, they don't realize the oil involved. So by knowing hydrogen is just a better way of saying oil, you are actually being against the president and his hydrogen policy.

Notice: What I said above is me just trying to make a point, I don't really mean to sound like an extreme left winger by talking about Bush and oil profits.
Sometimes I go about in pity for myself and all the while a great wind carries me across the sky.

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