Matt D
Topic Author
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Illegal Immigration

Mon Mar 21, 2005 8:28 am

After the last topic was so abruptly ended, let's try this again. I'm so glad that copies of deleted posts are included in the deletion notices. It makes re-posting the topic a lot easier. So here it is again, this time somewhat edited.

(for those of you who missed it the first time, the original topic came about as a result of a private nastygram that someone who shall remain nameless sent me, and was too good not to share. It was in response to something I said in a topic about bumper stickers.)

Anyway, let's talk about that elephant in the room, namely illegal immigration.

For starters...why is everyone afraid of the term "illegal", opting to take the spineless euphemism of "undocumented" immigrant? Hell, I still call them something else that I'm not afraid to say, except to type. But it's a two syllable word. The first syllable rhymes with "get" and the second rhymes with "track".

When discussing the topic, many supporters of said illegal immigration get very defensive, saying that people like me are "racist" and that these people "only want to make a better life for themselves.

Fine. If you think me calling a spade a spade, namely that 98% of illegal aliens that come here are Latino, so be it. The truth is the truth and your mind is already made up.

But nobody has a problem with ANYONE coming over here to better their lives.

That's not the issue.

The issue, which people like my buddy here love to ignore is this:

1. We are a sovereign nation. We have rules and laws. Rules and laws that need to
be obeyed, including WHEN, HOW, AND, WHERE TO IMMIGRATE.

2. I will give anyone $10,000 cash to someone who can show me a neighborhood that's comprised primarily of illegal immigrants, and the neighborhood is in as good, or better condition as any "legal" city, such as Costa Mesa, Huntington Beach, Upland, Palm Springs, or Arcadia. The fact of the matter is that locales with high illegal immigration, are in fact, run down eyesores with high rates of burglary, vandalism, robbery, and so on. Wherever illegals congregate, crime rises and property values fall. That's not racism.

That's fact.

3. I, as a US born citizien and taxpayer am under no legal or moral obligation to
reward people who came to this country illegally.

4. Hospitals are closing by the dozen because they are quite literally being overrun by people (namely illegal aliens) who show up, demand-and get services, and then are unable (or unwilling) to pay for it. A little over a year ago, my father nearly died waiting in the emergency room with full blown meningitis. He waited for over 12 hours despite his splitting headache, inability to even stand or walk, or think coherently while dozens after dozens of people yelling "¡Yo tienne Medical!¡Yo tienne Medical" were taken in for nothing more than routine checkups. And the so-called "emergencies" were childbirth and paper cuts-problems that WILL resolve themselves, medical care or no medical care.

5. Giving illegal aliens drivers licenses will open the door to more public benefits,
access to voting, and getting better jobs that they would not otherwise DESERVE.That's what they are really after. Supporters of giving drivers licenses argue that 1) they are driving anyway, and 2) the roads will actually be safer because these people will be "trained" and "will buy insurance".

Huh?

First off, it IS true that they are driving anyway. It's not because it's a lost cause like prohibition was. It's a lost cause because none of our so-called leaders have the gonads to enforce the laws and round these lawbreakers up, split up families if necessary, sieze their cars, all monies on their person, and ship their asses back to Mexico.

If you think I am advocating treating the illegals the same was as the Gestapo rounded up the Jews, then you read me loud and clear.

To suggest that illegals will run out in droves and buy insurance for their cars is nothing short of asinine and ludicrous. First of all, illegals, just by virtue of their presence have already flipped the bird at our judicial system and our laws. Where is the incentive for them to go out and buy something as intangible as insurance? To them, that money would be better spent on Cerveza, spinner hub caps, food, and tacos.

Just answer me this:The population of California is aprox. 37,000,000.

What is the compelling need to increase this population by supporting illegal
immigration. Honestly. Can you give me some good compelling reasons why we need to support the influx of aprox. 1,000 illegal aliens daily into this country?

We already have overcrowded conditions in our schools, hospitals (which I already mentioned), jails (for which we can always make room for more illegals), cities and highways. So, why do we need to add to this misery by importing more of it? Just try driving anywhere here in SoCal. The roads are miserable. Every damn place you go is a wait. Now granted, I'm, not laying the blame for the crowding squarely on the shoulders of the illegals, as it's also people moving here from Asia and the Midwest as well. But they are at least coming here, for the most part, legally.

It has to stop somewhere sometime before we start looking like India or China with all their over population problems.

The obvious question is why doesn't Mexico support their own people? Is it because they are over populating their own country due to the practices of the Catholic Church which advocates nobirth control? I'm sure that's part of it.

Why do we support politicians whom turn a blind eye to illegal immigration, interpet and bend the constitution and break the United States immigrations laws in order to allow them here? Why are these politicians so bent on giving rights to Illegal aliens, non citizens of this country?

The issue that will define our era and determine the nations future is illegal
immigration. Political debate is full of schemes like guest worker programs and
temporary worker cards to allow illegals to stay. And then once they've had a taste of our "good life", why in the world would they go back?

Also, despite what these bleeding hearts love to tell us, it's not that they fill jobs that Americans just dont want to do, such as gardening, picking up trash, waiting tables, and so on.

Prior to about 25 years ago, who did these jobs?

Who does them in states where there aren't large populations of illegals?

That's right....American Teenagers.

Unfortunately, with the advent of the self esteem movement, they're right. These self-absorbed, spoiled rotten Americans demand to be CEO of something, making six figure salaries before their 20th birthday. So yeah, mowing lawns for 50 bucks a day is beneath them. They wouldn't be able to afford their cell phones, designer clothing, and TV DVD players otherwise.

Such (guest worker) programs are really just political doublespeak from politicians who lack the intestinal fortitude to protect the borders of the United States.

The truth is President Bush is pushing the guest worker plan because he is trying to appease Mexican President Vicente Fox who wants the borders between Mexico and the U.S. and Canada open, just like the European Union.

Prior to the 9/11 terrorist attacks, President Bush and Fox agreed to consider granting permanent residency and green cards to as many as three million Mexicans living illegally in the United States. The plan was temporarily sidetracked in the aftermath of the 9/11 attacks, but now the White House has put it back on the agenda.

Fox thinks that the best way to save Mexicos failing economy is to grab hold of
ours. Fox's plan offers very little advantage to the United States. It has been documented that nearly all of the money that these illegals get their hands on gets shipped right back to Mexico.

Economically speaking, the plan offers no hope to solving Mexicos institutional
ills. The reason is that Mexicos economic problems are created by the fact that
Mexico is a socialist country that denies private ownership of property to its people, and taxes businesses to pay for just about any confiscation scheme its corrupt government can dream up.

It's the same old story. Socialism can't survive without a free market and/or sky high punitive taxes to prop it up. Mexico has sunk to the depths of socialist depravity and now desperately needs the U.S. economy to save it. Apparently, Fox has never considered fixing his own economy. Like all drowning despots, his only plan of action is to cling to our economy until it too starts to sink under the weight of a hoard of illegal aliens. Mr Fox, not being stupid, knows very well the Political Correctness attitude of this country and knows that anyone who dares oppose this influx will be commiting political suicide.

These law breakers, with Fox's help and encouragement, are rushing across the border for American goodies.

And the law says that because I'm white, a taxpayer, and actually made something for myself, I owe the illegals a living.
 
Newark777
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RE: Illegal Immigration

Mon Mar 21, 2005 8:33 am

The biggest load of crap I always hear is when people say that this is a nation built on immigrants, and this is continuing the tradition. That is true, but the big difference is: my relatives came here LEGALLY! They didn't sneak over fences and cross rivers, running away from the border patrol. They came here the way normal people do, by obtaining the proper paperwork and not sneaking over. It makes me sick.

Harry
Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
 
aloges
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RE: Illegal Immigration

Mon Mar 21, 2005 8:39 am

Quoting Newark777 (Reply 1):
my relatives came here LEGALLY

However, you can't say that for the people who founded the nation and made it as large as it is today. OK, there weren't any visa issues back then, but as George Carlin said, the settlers made Native Americans "a little hard to find"...
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
N317AS
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RE: Illegal Immigration

Mon Mar 21, 2005 8:47 am

Matt D in 2008. Right on man. Seal up the borders, give the illegals a warning shot over the forehead. If they don't stop then put the next one through it.
Some people are like Slinkies. They bring a smile to your face when you push them down a flight of stairs.
 
b757300
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RE: Illegal Immigration

Mon Mar 21, 2005 9:38 am

Quoting N317AS (Reply 3):
Matt D in 2008. Right on man. Seal up the borders, give the illegals a warning shot over the forehead. If they don't stop then put the next one through it.

Advocating the murder of illegal aliens is not a solution. While it is approved of applauded on sites like Libertypost.org, I doubt 90% of the people here would support such an idea. Plenty of things can be done to deal with the problem of illegal immigration without resorting to killing people.
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1MillionFlyer
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RE: Illegal Immigration

Mon Mar 21, 2005 9:39 am

without those illegals, our economy would be worse off. Have you ever studied economics? You might be familier with the velocity of money. These people provide services which they are paid for, they then buy things they need to live (cheap apartments, food) in turn the people who made money on them pay taxes on their income, and buy more goods and services which in turn gets taxed (sales tax, corporate income tax,etc) those companies buy things etc etc and it keeps going.


In the end the 1 dollar that illegal spends in the US turns into 10 dollars or more of GDP and 1 dollar in taxes, there is a big picture here that is not being thought about.

We won't even talk about the macro-economic issue of current accounts and trade deficits - but cheap labor in the US is better than cheap labor in China.
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jpetekyxmd80
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RE: Illegal Immigration

Mon Mar 21, 2005 9:53 am

Quoting Newark777 (Reply 1):
The biggest load of crap I always hear is when people say that this is a nation built on immigrants, and this is continuing the tradition. That is true, but the big difference is: my relatives came here LEGALLY! They didn't sneak over fences and cross rivers, running away from the border patrol.

So you have people who want to seal the borders and pretty much bring immigration to a halt...
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yyz717
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RE: Illegal Immigration

Mon Mar 21, 2005 9:56 am

Illegal immigrants are a drain on the economy. They send much of their earnings back to their 3rd world country of origin. They also depress wages in the US and other Western nations.

I say build bigger/stronger fences on the Mexican border. Round up ALL illegals and deport them. On a go-fwd basis, fine the Mexican govt $10k for each illegal caught trying to cross into the US. Problem solved.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
trvyyz
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RE: Illegal Immigration

Mon Mar 21, 2005 10:04 am

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 7):
fine the Mexican govt $10k for each illegal caught trying to cross into the US. Problem solved.

That would certainly boost the economy. You are really smart.  Silly
 
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yyz717
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RE: Illegal Immigration

Mon Mar 21, 2005 10:18 am

Without illegal immigration, existing unemployment would decline. There is no such thing as jobs no one wants to do -- without illegals, garbage cleanup and vegetable picking would become lucrative for America's poor. I don't mind paying $2.99 for a winter cucumber from California vs the current $1.99. With such an epidemic of obesity, higher food prices might not be a bad thing anyway.

That would certainly boost the economy. You are really smart.

It sounds like you're in favour of illegal immigration. Indians are one of the biggest sources of illegal immigration into all Western nations (not surprising given the inhumane poverty in your country). As an Indian, perhaps you are only interested in more Indians in the West, whether legal or illegal.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
57AZ
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RE: Illegal Immigration

Mon Mar 21, 2005 10:31 am

Actually, the real answer is to get Mexico's economy in shape. However that will require a significant amount of reform and passage of occupational safety laws there. Since they're still trying to clean up corruption in some government departments, I'm not holding my breath on that one.

As for fences, that idea faces two significant problems-1) there are areas along the US-Mexican border where the terrain is such that erecting and maintaining a fence would be prohibitive and 2) whatever fence you build, the "coyotes" will have the tools to deal with. Trafficking illegals is a big business that is supported under the table by many big businesses here in the states. Also, the Mexican government provides information to their nationals on how to survive a trek across the Sonoran desert and find their way into the states. That is a long established fact here in the southwest. Heck, when some local ranchers complained to the US Border Patrol about illegals constantly cutting their fences down, you know what the response was? The officer in charge told them that they simply didn't have enough manpower to net every illegal and that if they wanted the fence cutting to stop, then they should build stair across them!

Lastly, the pay for US Border Patrol officers has historically never been that competitive compared to other agencies, the working conditions are much worse and for a while, their pre-employment requirements were so stringent that many otherwise competant law enforcement officers could not meet them. Within the last few years, they dropped Spanish as a pre-employment requirement and do Spanish instruction for their officers since that requirement caused them to lose many applicants who were otherwise qualified.
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trvyyz
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RE: Illegal Immigration

Mon Mar 21, 2005 10:33 am

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 9):
It sounds like you're in favour of illegal immigration.

Why should I be? It is only your weird thinking that makes you feel so.
I am for more stricter borders and all illegal immigrants(to be) should be stopped at the border itself. I believe that crime rates, unemployment etc. will increase with illegal immigration.

Why did you migrate to Canada?

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 9):
As an Indian, perhaps you are only interested in more Indians in the West, whether legal or illegal.

Don't a$$ume things. I don't care about Indians or anybody for that matter.
You know nothing about me. If you call me an Indian, I should not be calling you a Canadian either.
 
yanksn4
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RE: Illegal Immigration

Mon Mar 21, 2005 10:41 am

Thank you, thank you, thank you Matt D for speaking about this. The question of Illegal immigration has made me wonder why the hell I am a Republican. I'm sick and tired of this president allowing those who cheat the system to have amnesty once they reach here. We need someone who will protect the United States from millions of leaf-blowers to overrun the country and turn this into a Mexican territory.

Also, I wanted to add this reason to why Illegals need to be stopped. Immigration is simply a national security issue too. It's already been proven time and again that Al-Qaida and others who want the destruction of the United States have used the Mexican boarder as a way to get into the country undetected. I'm afraid to even think about how many terrorist have been able to get into the country and set up terrorist attacks. The boarders have to be sealed up NOW and the millions of illegals in this country need to be rounded up and put on a bus back to Mexico.

signed
Matthew
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Matt D
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RE: Illegal Immigration

Mon Mar 21, 2005 10:51 am

You raise a couple of good points there Yanks. I don't really consider myself Republican or Democrat per se, although my beliefs do tend to the Conservatove-and thus-GOP side. But that doesn't mean I don't have some real huge beefs with them.

For starters, there is a hole big enough to fly an A340 through when it comes to their "right to life" stance. They are tripping over themselves to outlaw all abortions under all circumstances at all costs.

I don't agree with that. While I'm certainly opposed to abortion as a form of birth control, there are some instances where a pregnancy can be a legitimate medical emergency.

The GOP is doing everything they can to make sure that every life is born. But once it is, it is on its own, even if the parents cannot sustain that life. Although I believe 110% in "sink or swim", I would rather see the focus shifted towards accountability and responsibility education. In other words, if you can't afford a kid, then don't conceive one.

Problem solved.

My other gripe with the GOP is while they claim to be anti-illegal, secretly, they always manage to look the other way and sweep it under the rug whenever the issue comes up. As noted above, the reason is simple economics: Big Business LOVES the cheap labor. And as we all know, Big Business equals GOP.

So here we have our quandary. The GOP looking for a source of cheap labor. And the Dems wanting to turn the Rio Grande into Ellis Island West, because they know that legitimizing illegals will be a staggering gold mine of votes, thus ensuring that the Dems attain and maintain power.

So you see: the Hard Core on both sides have a vested interest in allowing illegals in, which certainly adds to why they both love to tiptoe and dance around the issue without really taking it head on.

And all the while, the rest of us in the middle are getting screwed.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Illegal Immigration

Mon Mar 21, 2005 11:04 am

Quoting TRVYYZ (Reply 11):
Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 9):
It sounds like you're in favour of illegal immigration.

Why should I be? It is only your weird thinking that makes you feel so.

Touchy huh? You jumped all over my comments opposing illegals. Hence, it sounds like you're in favour of them.

Quoting TRVYYZ (Reply 11):
I am for more stricter borders and all illegal immigrants(to be) should be stopped at the border itself. I believe that crime rates, unemployment etc. will increase with illegal immigration.

Really? Then I presume you would be in favour of returning the thousands (actually, hundreds of thousands) of illegals Indians in the West back to mother India? It would mean a much smaller Indian population in the West you know.

Quoting TRVYYZ (Reply 11):
I don't care about Indians or anybody for that matter.
You know nothing about me.

Well, just about everyone on your RR list is Indian. You're from Trivandrum, which is in India. You have an Indian name. You post primarily in Indian or immigration threads. Hence it seems you care primarily about fellow Indians.

I'm sick and tired of this president allowing those who cheat the system to have amnesty once they reach here. We need someone who will protect the United States from millions of leaf-blowers to overrun the country and turn this into a Mexican territory.

I agree. But Bush has been co-opted by his fear of offending the powerful Texan Mexican vote and the Florida Cuban vote, so basically being pro-Latino in the US means you have to be pro-illegal immigration.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
KYIPpilot
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RE: Illegal Immigration

Mon Mar 21, 2005 11:10 am

Quoting Yanksn4 (Reply 12):
Also, I wanted to add this reason to why Illegals need to be stopped. Immigration is simply a national security issue too. It's already been proven time and again that Al-Qaida and others who want the destruction of the United States have used the Mexican boarder as a way to get into the country undetected. I'm afraid to even think about how many terrorist have been able to get into the country and set up terrorist attacks. The boarders have to be sealed up NOW

Yanks, while it is not out of the realm of possibilty that they can get in through Mexico, you need to stop eating up all of the fear tactics that this administration is feeding you. FYI, not one of the 19 9/11 hijackers snuck illegally across a border. All of them came here "legally," even though passports were doctored up. Part of the blame lies on the legal way to get into this country.

And Matt, I agree completely with you about illegal immigrants. There needs to be a change in action on the borders. To do that, more money is needed, but unfortunatley, it is being sent elsewhere as of now....  Angry
"It starts when you're always afraid; You step out of line, the man come and take you away" -Buffalo Springfield
 
StarAC17
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RE: Illegal Immigration

Mon Mar 21, 2005 11:30 am

Quoting KYIPpilot (Reply 15):
FYI, not one of the 19 9/11 hijackers snuck illegally across a border. All of them came here "legally," even though passports were doctored up. Part of the blame lies on the legal way to get into this country.

You beat me to this point if you really are all against people entering your country illegaly the US has the power over most counties to run checks on everybody that wants to cross-over. Illegals are in the US because they are wanted and I think that they are more wanted by the GOP than the dems.

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 7):
fine the Mexican govt $10k for each illegal caught trying to cross into the US. Problem solved.

How is Mexico to blame for this, its the US that is letting these people into the country, Mexico isn't forcing them out and therefore isn't responsible.
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trvyyz
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RE: Illegal Immigration

Mon Mar 21, 2005 11:31 am

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 14):
Touchy huh? You jumped all over my comments opposing illegals. Hence, it sounds like you're in favour of them

You should be a detective, they need sharp guys like you. laughing 

I don't have any reason to be in favor of illegal immigrants as I came to Canada legally and through the proper process and was accepted to Canada based on my qualifications. I really got high points to qualify as a skilled immigrant which I doubt you would get , if you were to compete with me.

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 14):
You have an Indian name.

Are you sure?

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 14):
Really? Then I presume you would be in favour of returning the thousands (actually, hundreds of thousands) of illegals Indians in the West back to mother India? It would mean a much smaller Indian population in the West you know.

Of course yes,I do not support any illegal immigrants, be it from India or anywhere else.

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 14):
Well, just about everyone on your RR list is Indian.

You are not right, only 4 out of 10 in my RU list are Indians. And the respected list consists of all Canadians only(even though small in no.). I discuss in Indian threads as much as you do, but I know a lot more about India, it's positives and negatives.

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 14):
Hence it seems you care primarily about fellow Indians.

I don't know of any Indian illegal Immigrants on A.net.

Neil, you are really funny. Thanks for studying my bio-data.
 
StevenUhl777
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RE: Illegal Immigration

Mon Mar 21, 2005 11:38 am

Ultimately, the problem lies with us, the American citizens! How we deal with it depends on us, not what foreign countries want us to do for their people who don't like where they came from enough to stay.

Doesn't matter if the illegal immigrant is from Ho Chi Minh City or Hannover, folks.

I have no problem with someone coming here legally and following the rules to become a citizen. My Mom and her family did the same from Great Britain in the '50's, by way of Canada. My Dad's ancestors did the same right about the time the "First Reich" was established, in 1871, from the Hannover area of Germany.

Here's where I struggle with the immigration problem, as do many others, I'm sure:

- Person X from Country Y decides that life in Country Y sucks, there's no jobs, etc., and decides to come here. They find a way to sneak in, and under the guise of finding work in a field or greasy spoon restuarant, claim they all of a sudden have a right to be here, and stay here. In order to bolster their right, they find a nice young lady, impregnate the nice young lady, and then has the kid(s) right here, with the cost of birth paid for by...US taxpayers! Now, with the little one now being a bona fide US citizen, how could the evil US government (insert your hated president's name here) deport them and their citizen child?

I don't have all the answers. To say that we should seal the borders to everyone is in my case hypocritical. Not that I'd have a problem being German or British, but I'm glad my ancestors and grandparents made the decision they did. At some point, they dealt with the same issues about their first born in the USA as we are discussing here.
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1MillionFlyer
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RE: Illegal Immigration

Mon Mar 21, 2005 11:52 am

Quoting Matt D (Reply 13):
And the Dems wanting to turn the Rio Grande into Ellis Island West, because they know that legitimizing illegals will be a staggering gold mine of votes, thus ensuring that the Dems attain and maintain power.

ummmm...... Latinos who could vote went with Bush for his "Moral" values platform.

The Republicans (which I have been in the past) are smart to look the other way, see post 5. it's plain economics.

This is a global economy, there is no turning back unless we want the US to become a Third World country.
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yyz717
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RE: Illegal Immigration

Mon Mar 21, 2005 11:56 am

Quoting TRVYYZ (Reply 17):
I really got high points to qualify as a skilled immigrant which I doubt you would get , if you were to compete with me.

You wanna bet? I'm well educated, and prosperous. I also speak English.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
b757300
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RE: Illegal Immigration

Mon Mar 21, 2005 12:02 pm

Quoting Yanksn4 (Reply 12):
I'm sick and tired of this president allowing those who cheat the system to have amnesty once they reach here.

Uh, the President has not granted "amnesty" to any illegal alien. The President has never proposed "amnesty" for illegal aliens. (Actually Congress would have to do it, not the President but facts rarely seem to matter when it comes to this issue.) The President has said "amnesty" is not the solution because all it does is cause more illegal immigration.

What the President proposes is to allow those who want to come here to work to apply, register, and then come here for short periods of time. The purpose behind this is two fold. One it allows people to come here and work, keeps them within the system where they pay taxes and makes sure we're keeping track of those crossing the border. If it works, it would help to reduce the overall number of illegal border crossers by a huge amount. This would make the situation along the border easier and it could be assumed that most people crossing are either drug runners or those crossing with the intention of committing violent crimes. Those kind can be dealt with in a different manner than a woman carrying a small child.
"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
 
trvyyz
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RE: Illegal Immigration

Mon Mar 21, 2005 12:03 pm

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 20):
I also speak English.

That's really great. I am shocked.

Also, forgot to mention "Neil" is also an Indian name and it means "blue" colour.
 
yanksn4
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RE: Illegal Immigration

Mon Mar 21, 2005 12:03 pm

Quoting KYIPpilot (Reply 15):
Quoting Yanksn4 (Reply 12):
Also, I wanted to add this reason to why Illegals need to be stopped. Immigration is simply a national security issue too. It's already been proven time and again that Al-Qaida and others who want the destruction of the United States have used the Mexican boarder as a way to get into the country undetected. I'm afraid to even think about how many terrorist have been able to get into the country and set up terrorist attacks. The boarders have to be sealed up NOW

Yanks, while it is not out of the realm of possibilty that they can get in through Mexico, you need to stop eating up all of the fear tactics that this administration is feeding you. FYI, not one of the 19 9/11 hijackers snuck illegally across a border. All of them came here "legally," even though passports were doctored up. Part of the blame lies on the legal way to get into this country.

KYIPilot, let me give you this scenario: let's say you are a terrorist and you want to carry out an attack in the United States. Now there are a two ways you can get into the country: through a visa or through the boarders. Now you want to get in the country as quiet as possible. If you go with a visa, there's a chance that they may get to you and stop you from coming in. However, if you go through the boarders, you could get in here with out anyone knowing. You look at the Canadian boarder, but you see it is a little too protected, but you then look at Mexico and that the Americans are doing little to nothing about protecting it. Now you would have to be a complete idiot to choose the Canadian boarder over the Mexican boarder. See my point?

signed
Matthew
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yyz717
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Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 12:26 pm

RE: Illegal Immigration

Mon Mar 21, 2005 12:35 pm

Quoting Yanksn4 (Reply 23):
You look at the Canadian boarder, but you see it is a little too protected, but you then look at Mexico and that the Americans are doing little to nothing about protecting it. Now you would have to be a complete idiot to choose the Canadian boarder over the Mexican boarder. See my point?

Actually, the Cdn border is not as tight as it should be. Canada is a known haven for Islamic extremists and their supporters. I do agree that America's Achilles Heel is its 2 land borders. It's far too easy to slip into the US, particularly from Mexico. An impenetrable fence is needed. Now.

Quoting TRVYYZ (Reply 22):
Also, forgot to mention "Neil" is also an Indian name and it means "blue" colour.

Cool. Matches my eye colour. Anyway, it remains primarily a Scottish name here in the West. Where I live.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
KYIPpilot
Posts: 1357
Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2003 11:14 pm

RE: Illegal Immigration

Mon Mar 21, 2005 12:37 pm

No, because you still have a chance of being caught if you sneak in as well. Although there aren't near enough, there are border patrols that use vehicles and and aircraft. Thousands of illegals are caught every year trying to sneak in. If they did, where would they go from there? How do they get around, and where do they stay. If they have to commit a crime, such as steal a vehicle to get away, there is even more chance of being caught.

Again, not one of the 19 highjackers snuck across, proving that there were/are holes in the legal way as well.

By the way, it is spelled border, not boarder.
"It starts when you're always afraid; You step out of line, the man come and take you away" -Buffalo Springfield
 
ltbewr
Posts: 12504
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

RE: Illegal Immigration

Mon Mar 21, 2005 1:11 pm

As to the 'illegals' from Mexico, the most dominate group of non-citizens whom work illegally here, almost all of them come here to work. They are also expoited as work for low wages and do work that too many Americans feel are 'beneath' them (especially at low wages). In some work situations, especially as to agriculture, meatpacking, lower level factory work, construction and landscaping, they have taken over those jobs.
The use of Mexicans in agriculture started in a legal work program During WWII, (and continuing into the 1950's) as many Americans men were off to war and a need for others to take their place. Of course, many worked off the books and oustide of the programs. The agriculture business then found they couldn't get Americans to do this work as they had other opportunites and the poverty of Mexicans drove them to come to American to work to get the incomes they despiratly needed for their family's survival. This was further screwed up by the massive corruption and government buearucracy in Mexico. While in the 1980's and 1990's there was a massive growth in jobs and opportunities with Mexico, espeically around Mexico City and the border cities with the USA, many of those jobs are now dissapperaing to China (just like in the USA). A growing number of the illegals are from the Southern states of Mexico as well as other Central American countries. In the past and still true today, there has been large numbers of Asians (mainland Chinese) whom came to the USA illegally, with the help of Chinese criminal syndicates, and then horribly exploited in factories, resturants and the sex trades as to women, to pay for the 'help' of these criminals.

How do we deal with the problems of illegal immigration, not just as to Mexicans, but also Asians and Africans? Mostly you make it more difficult for a person to stay and work.

Don't support the illegal employment. We shouldn't hire those are illegal, looking for the cheap way out. We also shouldn't just look for the cheapest price on a construction job or landscaping by and illegals or the contractor using illegals.
You bring back strong enforcement of labor laws - and the money needed to do it. Over the last 15 years, Democrats and Republicans alike like cheap help, and strave the Immigration and Labor departments to reduce their ability to enforce laws against the employment of illegal immigrants.
We should return to a legal program to make sure those whom are not citizens whom want to work in the USA are not criminals, won't bring their families, won't stay after their permit ends and able to be subject to and benefit from labor regulations.
Some states, most importantly New Jersey, have very strict conditions for one to get a driver's license to determine their citizenship or legal residency with proof of same required. Similar standards should be nationwide.
 
StarAC17
Posts: 3402
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 11:54 am

RE: Illegal Immigration

Mon Mar 21, 2005 1:18 pm

Quoting Yanksn4 (Reply 23):
You look at the Canadian boarder, but you see it is a little too protected,

Yanks, the US Canadian border is the longest undefended border in the world there is no fence on any of it, the US mexico border at least has that.

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 24):
Actually, the Cdn border is not as tight as it should be. Canada is a known haven for Islamic extremists and their supporters

Ok Neil we do have our own immigration problems but there is no way its our fault if Illegals or even terrorists slip in to the US from Canada, we are not in charge of US security we are in charge of Canadian at the border.
Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
 
jpetekyxmd80
Posts: 4007
Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2003 3:16 am

RE: Illegal Immigration

Mon Mar 21, 2005 1:18 pm

Quoting KYIPpilot (Reply 25):
By the way, it is spelled border, not boarder.

Amen!! I recommend for fun to do a CTRL+F through this thread for 'boarder'.

Quite entertaining.
The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
 
Airlinerfreak
Posts: 1246
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2005 4:16 am

RE: Illegal Immigration

Mon Mar 21, 2005 1:29 pm

I have a soft spot for immigration here as I just did a report on the Indians and how we immigrated into their land and kicked them off their land. We as Americans at one point or another kicked the Indians off their land. We moved them farther and farther east, yet we get mad when someone tries to do this to us. We even slaughtered their people yet we still had no remorse for them. Now we have the Mexicans moving on to our land.

The Mexicans are now moving onto our land. We are getting a good taste of how the Indians felt. Not very good is it? Well another thing to argue here is that we kinda stole Mexico from the Mexicans. We had a dominating well trained and well fitted army that went down and totally obliterated Mexican troops and also those of Santa Anna. Once we conquered Mexico City, the Mexicans finally decided to make a compromise and that was to give the Northern Part of past Mexico to us. So because of America being the nationalist country that it is we sort of stole their land from Mexico. Also do not forget another important thing, the illegal immigrants are taking the jobs that Americans simply don't want to do. Also the Mexicans actually care. They take pride and care into what they do when they work. They usually are the more pleasurable people, so I have no problem with them. Tell me how many Americans would go and clean a slaughterhouse in the middle of a night, tell me how many Americans would clean houses for a living, tell me how many Americans would clean office buildings for a living. You can't cause there are none. Americans are simply not satisfied with that pay level nor that job level. So the illegal Immigrants are taking those jobs. I do not see what we are all complaining about.
 
yanksn4
Posts: 1367
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2003 10:05 am

RE: Illegal Immigration

Mon Mar 21, 2005 1:43 pm

Quoting Airlinerfreak (Reply 29):
So the illegal Immigrants are taking those jobs. I do not see what we are all complaining about.

What we are complaining about is that illegal immigrants have broken U. S. law. They have cut in line of those who try to come here legally and wait years to do so. Also, it is the American taxpayers that have to pay the bill for thier healthcare and their educational services. Now do you see what we are complaining about?

signed
Matthew
2013 Airports: EWR, JFK, LGA, LIS, AGP, DEN, GIG, RGN, BKK, LHR, FRA, LAX, SYD, PER, MEL, MCO, MIA, PEK, IAH
 
Airlinerfreak
Posts: 1246
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2005 4:16 am

RE: Illegal Immigration

Mon Mar 21, 2005 2:08 pm

We did it to the Indians what is your point. They did not only have to pay in a $ amount they had to pay in a people amount. They lost their people because of us immigrants. The Mexicans arent killing us, they are just looking for a place to live.
 
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yyz717
Posts: 15699
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 12:26 pm

RE: Illegal Immigration

Mon Mar 21, 2005 2:54 pm

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 27):
Ok Neil we do have our own immigration problems but there is no way its our fault if Illegals or even terrorists slip in to the US from Canada, we are not in charge of US security we are in charge of Canadian at the border.

It is our fault Tim. A terrorist against the US is a terrorist against Canada. THe US is our best friend -- we share the same goals. If Canada harbours terrorists attacking the US (even without our knowledge), that makes Canada a de facto enemy of the US.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
mrniji
Posts: 5382
Joined: Sun Feb 29, 2004 11:51 am

RE: Illegal Immigration

Mon Mar 21, 2005 3:00 pm

Quoting Matt D (Thread starter):
I'm so glad that copies of deleted posts are included in the deletion notices. It makes re-posting the topic a lot easier

wonderful, I wll report you to themods. Reposting deleted post = ban Big grin
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
SLC1
Posts: 1360
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 2:13 pm

RE: Illegal Immigration

Mon Mar 21, 2005 3:08 pm

Maybe we'd have fewer illegals if INS got their act together, or if maybe, just maybe, we didn't practtically beg illegals to come and stay, then complain when they become inconvenient.

My say: make INS more efficient and make immigration easier with limited amnesty, and of course DoHS controls BUT become strict on those who do choose to immigrate illegally instead of looking the other way.

And of course, I have no idea how to go about this, I am an armchair politician, but I sure as hell know INS could be more efficient than they are, and that we know where the illegals are and just don't care.
We're gonna do what we like to call a "jetBlue how do you do", which is slang for dumping a bunch of fuel in the ocean
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: Illegal Immigration

Mon Mar 21, 2005 7:04 pm

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 7):
Illegal immigrants are a drain on the economy. They send much of their earnings back to their 3rd world country of origin. They also depress wages in the US and other Western nations.

I say build bigger/stronger fences on the Mexican border. Round up ALL illegals and deport them.

Wow, I almost agree a hundred percent with Yyz717 - call Guiness . . .

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 24):
Actually, the Cdn border is not as tight as it should be.

Ahhh, candidate for Understatement of the Decade!!!

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 32):
. A terrorist against the US is a terrorist against Canada. THe US is our best friend -- we share the same goals. If Canada harbours terrorists attacking the US (even without our knowledge), that makes Canada a de facto enemy of the US.

Interesting theory - I concur.


Anyone coming to the US legally, to work, go to school, etc, should be welcome - it's the foundation of this country. Anyone entering the US illegally, be it over a fence, through a river or off a plane, well - they are criminals, deserve to be prosecuted . . .

I'd almost advocate sending them home in a box but I think that a bit extreme.

Sounds harsh, I know - sure would reduce the problem after the first few dozen cousins come home feet first.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
ly7e7
Posts: 2222
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 3:15 am

RE: Illegal Immigration

Mon Mar 21, 2005 7:33 pm

MattD,

Were your predecessors legal immigrants? Did they apply for a green card while living in Ireland/Italy/Wherever in Europe?

America is built by the immigrants, minority of who were legal.
2 things are endless: ignorance and space
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 5455
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

RE: Illegal Immigration

Mon Mar 21, 2005 7:39 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 35):
I'd almost advocate sending them home in a box but I think that a bit extreme.

Sounds harsh, I know - sure would reduce the problem after the first few dozen cousins come home feet first.

A bit exteme? No it just shows who you truly are.
 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 11:50 pm

RE: Illegal Immigration

Tue Mar 22, 2005 1:40 am

Indians are one of the biggest sources of illegal immigration into all Western nations.

This is factually wrong.

In the US, ins figures for 2000 (last year for which such figures were available) showed that there were only 3000 illegals of Indian origin for that year. Compare with Ireland (3000 annually), Italy, Portugal, (2500 each annually), China (2000 annually), Mexico (250,000 annually), Hondura (25,000 annually). See www.ins.gov. For a country of its size (and in absolute terms), illegal immigration from India is extremely low.

Then I presume you would be in favour of returning the thousands (actually, hundreds of thousands) of illegals Indians in the West back to mother India?

Given that the US has calculated that illegals from India are only about 15,000 in the US (actually down from a total of 30,000 in 1996), your assertions are rubbish, especially since the US is the primary destination of both legal and illegal immigrants. Furthermore, the UK Home Office only logged 2000 illegals of Indian origin in 2004, of which 750 were apprehended and sent back. In comparison, Russia sent over 17,000 illegal migrants to the UK. Even migrationwatchUK, estimates that the total number of illegal migrants from India into the UK is miniscule. The total number of ALL illegals from ALL countries into the UK is only 35,000.

Thus, your assertions are - as usual - a pile of garbage, in violation of facts, common sense, and decency, and conjured up by what is nothing more than rabid ignorance.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
luisde8cd
Posts: 2444
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 12:02 am

RE: Illegal Immigration

Tue Mar 22, 2005 2:14 am

Thank god that the people that rule the United States don't think like some a.net members.
 
mrniji
Posts: 5382
Joined: Sun Feb 29, 2004 11:51 am

RE: Illegal Immigration

Tue Mar 22, 2005 2:14 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 41):
Guess, cheap produce picked by latin American migrant workers making extremely low wages, give him greater incentive to eat.

So, even he benefits form illegal immegration, eh? Hey you, imagine all these illegal immigrants weren't there, that would mean: "LESS FOOD"!! Does it ring now? Matt D can actually join him..
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
skyservice_330
Posts: 1302
Joined: Sat Sep 16, 2000 6:50 am

RE: Illegal Immigration

Tue Mar 22, 2005 11:32 am

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 24):
Canada is a known haven for Islamic extremists and their supporters.

If Canada really were such a haven wouldn't the U.S. have closed the border after 9/11?

Can you provide any sources for this so-called 'haven' claim?
 
Cadet985
Posts: 1972
Joined: Sat Mar 02, 2002 6:45 am

RE: Illegal Immigration

Tue Mar 22, 2005 1:04 pm

Quoting Newark777 (Reply 1):
The biggest load of crap I always hear is when people say that this is a nation built on immigrants, and this is continuing the tradition. That is true, but the big difference is: my relatives came here LEGALLY! They didn't sneak over fences and cross rivers, running away from the border patrol. They came here the way normal people do, by obtaining the proper paperwork and not sneaking over. It makes me sick.

In addition to this, what makes me sick is that many immigrants come here, live here for like 20 years, and fail to learn English. I know from talking with friends from various foreign countries, that if I were to move there, i could still speak English, but I would be FORCED to learn the local language. When my great grandparents came over around the turn of the 20th century, they HAD to learn English; they couldn't function in society speaking their native languages. If someone really wants to come to America badly, let them come legally.

Marc
 
Avianca
Posts: 5283
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 5:33 am

RE: Illegal Immigration

Wed Mar 23, 2005 7:54 am

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 42):
If someone really wants to come to America badly, let them come legally.

all illigals would be happy if you could say them what is the way to go to america legally. Yes for poor people from 3rd world countrys there is " no " way. It there would be one they didn´t come illegal to the US or any other country.
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
Newark777
Posts: 8284
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 6:23 am

RE: Illegal Immigration

Wed Mar 23, 2005 8:00 am

Quoting LY7E7 (Reply 36):
America is built by the immigrants, minority of who were legal.

Are you sure you know what you are talking about? Have you ever heard of Ellis Island?

Harry
Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
 
User avatar
yyz717
Posts: 15699
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 12:26 pm

RE: Illegal Immigration

Wed Mar 23, 2005 8:12 am

Quoting Avianca (Reply 43):
all illigals would be happy if you could say them what is the way to go to america legally. Yes for poor people from 3rd world countrys there is " no " way. It there would be one they didn´t come illegal to the US or any other country.

You have a point Avianca, but the West cannot afford to let ALL 3rd world migrants in that would want to. The West would be swamped, many times over. Legal immigration (which is already tearing at the fabric of many Western nations) satisfies a tiny fraction of those 3rd world migrants willing to move to the West. The US (indeed, any Western nation) cannot afford open immigration. Immigration is a huge issue in all Western nations now.

Shrill cries of outrage are raised when Austria elects someone like Jorge Haider and yet, even his policies are mild compared to Japan's current immigration policy. There is one Western nation that has a policy of racial homogenousness. They allow zero immigration, and deliberately follow a policy of racial purity. That country is Japan. It has the capacity to accept millions of 3rd world immigrants and yet won't. The world barely raises a protest. I have no doubt that if any white majority country had such a no-immigration policy it would be villified worldwide.

Anyway, the bottom line is that illegal immigrants are criminals. They should be deported. More fundamentally, every nation on earth has the right to determine its own immigration policy, even a no-immigration policy and a zero-tolerance approach to illegals.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Newark777
Posts: 8284
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 6:23 am

RE: Illegal Immigration

Wed Mar 23, 2005 8:15 am

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 45):

Along with ANCFlyer, I am in complete shock that I actually agree with you. Nice posts, by the way.  Smile

Harry
Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
 
Avianca
Posts: 5283
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 5:33 am

RE: Illegal Immigration

Wed Mar 23, 2005 8:25 am

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 45):
There is one Western nation that has a policy of racial homogenousness. They allow zero immigration, and deliberately follow a policy of racial purity. That country is Japan.

you can not compare Japan with the US or Canada, these two countrys are totally build up with immigrants.

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 45):
Anyway, the bottom line is that illegal immigrants are criminals. They should be deported. More fundamentally, every nation on earth has the right to determine its own immigration policy, even a no-immigration policy and a zero-tolerance approach to illegals.

you are totally correct if you say criminal illegal immigrants should be deported now matter, but are all illegal immigrants automatically criminals? Not really, mostly of these people are hard working persons, and many of the illegal immigrants are with the time criminals because often they have not any other chance. I would say the companys who are paying this persons lower than the MM-salery are here the criminals not the poor people who just want a normal live.
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
Newark777
Posts: 8284
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 6:23 am

RE: Illegal Immigration

Wed Mar 23, 2005 8:34 am

Quoting Avianca (Reply 47):
but are all illegal immigrants automatically criminals?

Read you sentence again. Are illegal citizens criminals. OF COURSE THEY ARE! They broke laws in order to enter our country, therefore they are criminals. A thief or murderer can still be a good citizen and hard worker after the fact, but they are still a criminal.

Harry
Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
 
User avatar
yyz717
Posts: 15699
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 12:26 pm

RE: Illegal Immigration

Wed Mar 23, 2005 8:36 am

Quoting Avianca (Reply 47):
you can not compare Japan with the US or Canada, these two countrys are totally build up with immigrants.

Japan is absolutely comparable to the US or Canada. Current immigration needs or policies have nothing to do with whether a country is "built up" with immigrants. Austria is not "built up" with immigrants, yet is villified for electing Jorge Haider (as only opposition leader) and yet Japan is allowed to maintain its racist ethnic purity policies. As I said, if Japan was a "white" country with such policies, it would be a world pariah.

Quoting Avianca (Reply 47):
are all illegal immigrants automatically criminals?

Yes, absolutely. They broke the entry country's laws of entry. They broke the law. They are indeed criminals.

Quoting Newark777 (Reply 46):
Along with ANCFlyer, I am in complete shock that I actually agree with you. Nice posts, by the way.

Aw shucks.  Smile Thanks boys.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.

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