skyservice_330
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US Spies 'dead Wrong' On Iraq WMD

Fri Apr 01, 2005 2:44 am

"US spy agencies were "dead wrong" in "almost all" of their judgments about Iraq's weapons of mass destruction (WMD) capability, a commission appointed by the US president said in a final report today."

Not really new news I suppose, but interesting none the less. Definately be interesting to see what the classified version has in it. I suppose a kudos to Bush is in order for setting up the commission to get to the bottom of this mess.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1449363,00.html
 
aloges
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RE: US Spies 'dead Wrong' On Iraq WMD

Fri Apr 01, 2005 2:53 am

10 to 1 it won't take long until someone basically says "Who cares, the war wasn't about WMDs anyway, stupid pinko-commie liberal Democrat terrorist-hugging  censored !"
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jaysit
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RE: US Spies 'dead Wrong' On Iraq WMD

Fri Apr 01, 2005 3:01 am

What difference does this make?

Even if all the intelligence in the world had told Bush et al that Iraq had no WMDs, they would have twisted the information to make a case for war. The decision to invade Iraq was pre-determined based on ideological reasons.

Verdict first, evidence later was the order of the day.
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Banco
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RE: US Spies 'dead Wrong' On Iraq WMD

Fri Apr 01, 2005 3:09 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 2):
Verdict first, evidence later was the order of the day.

You know, I really don't believe that - not quite. I do believe that Bush and Blair really did think there were WMD's there, and that they were a threat. They may well have convinced themselves of that, but the alternative, which is that they deliberately and purposely lied to the whole world in order to invade....no. I just don't see it, I really don't.
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Superfly
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RE: US Spies 'dead Wrong' On Iraq WMD

Fri Apr 01, 2005 3:13 am

Whare is Osama Bin Laden?
Remember him?

That war in Iraq was one hell of a distraction.
Bring back the Concorde
 
NoUFO
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RE: US Spies 'dead Wrong' On Iraq WMD

Fri Apr 01, 2005 3:18 am

I have to second Banco.

At the same time I think one reason for going to war that did not make it to the public was to defeat Saddam Hussein to be able to pull American troops off from Saudi-Arabia.
Most members of the 9/11 clique came from Saudi-Arabia and the presence of foreign armed forces was a constant reason for uproars against the "infidels".
And behold: It wasn't long after the fall of Baghdad when the Bush Administration pulled back their troops.
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ANCFlyer
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RE: US Spies 'dead Wrong' On Iraq WMD

Fri Apr 01, 2005 3:24 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 1):
10 to 1 it won't take long until someone basically says "Who cares, the war wasn't about WMDs anyway, stupid pinko-commie liberal Democrat terrorist-hugging

Give it a rest . . .

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 2):
Verdict first, evidence later was the order of the day.

I don't think so. . .

I think Dubya and Blair were convinced by very, very poor intelligence there were WMD, only after they failed to find any did they begin the political tap dance.

I have to agree with Banco - I'm sure Bush and Blair didn't hop on the phone one night and suddenly decide to deceive the entire world and start a war . . .

What I still fail to understand is why heads at the CIA didn't roll over this. Of all the things regarding this war in Iraq that I have but a one sided opinion of - this issue is it.

[Edited 2005-03-31 19:34:21]
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Banco
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RE: US Spies 'dead Wrong' On Iraq WMD

Fri Apr 01, 2005 3:32 am

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 5):
I have to second Banco



Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 6):
I have to agree with Banco

Bloody hell, fellas. Don't sound too thrilled about it.  Yeah sure Big grin
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aloges
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RE: US Spies 'dead Wrong' On Iraq WMD

Fri Apr 01, 2005 3:34 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 6):
Give it a rest . . .

I'm looking forward to the thread that gives it a rest. It's not that I want anyone to shut up, but the yammering from a select few right-wing tools is just too annoying. I've seen it far too often, too - if someone dares to disagree with their political idol's opinion, they're anti-American and what not.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: US Spies 'dead Wrong' On Iraq WMD

Fri Apr 01, 2005 3:35 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 8):
It's not that I want anyone to shut up, but the yammering from a select few right-wing tools is just too annoying.

Aloges, I hate to point out the blindingly frickin' obvious but the opposite is also true - and your first post here proves that quite well.

Pot calling the kettle black . . . simple as that.
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MD-90
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RE: US Spies 'dead Wrong' On Iraq WMD

Fri Apr 01, 2005 3:39 am

Actually, I think it's stereotyping to say that the intellgence agencies (namely, the CIA and DIA) were dead wrong. It's just that anything that didn't toe the neocon party line wasn't reported up through the ranks far enough. Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and Wolfowitz obviously didn't want to hear it.

[Edited 2005-03-31 19:39:58]
 
avek00
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RE: US Spies 'dead Wrong' On Iraq WMD

Fri Apr 01, 2005 3:40 am

Many of you are forgetting that intelligence is by no means an exact science - even the best and most highly-trained analysts and spies will "get it wrong" at least occasionally.
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jaysit
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RE: US Spies 'dead Wrong' On Iraq WMD

Fri Apr 01, 2005 3:42 am

I think Dubya and Blair were convinced by very, very poor intelligence there were WMD, only after they failed to find any did they begin the political tap dance.

Believe whatever you want.

Wolfowitz had been making a case for war against Iraq since 1994. If you read Bob Woodward's book, there is also plenty of evidence to show that the decision to invade Iraq was a foregone conclusion. Once this conclusion was made, the evidence just had to be tailored to suit the decision.

Once 9-11 happened, the public and the press got bamboozled into believing that Iraq and 9-11 could get conflated, and, thus, no one wanted to REALLY examine this phoney evidence. If you did, you'd be dubbed unpatriotic. Thus, all those cowards in Congress just nodded their heads in unison.

THis is just another instance of this incredibly corrupt White House trying to find a fall guy. But the buck should stop at 1600 Penn Avenue, not with some intelligence officers pressured to produce the kind of evidence the Prez and his buddies wanted.
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NoUFO
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RE: US Spies 'dead Wrong' On Iraq WMD

Fri Apr 01, 2005 3:43 am

Quoting Banco (Reply 7):
Don't sound too thrilled about it.

Agreed.  duck 
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jdwfloyd
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RE: US Spies 'dead Wrong' On Iraq WMD

Fri Apr 01, 2005 3:51 am

Saddam hid an entire wing of Migs in the sand and look how long it took to find them. I guess it is out of the question that he would have hid any WMDs in the same manner while we waited for months to go in. He had all the time in the world to move the WMDs or hide them in some pit while we fought with the UN to uphold their own resolutions that Saddam was in violation of. If you remember correctly every one including France Germany and Russia said he was in violation of all 18 or so resolutions set by the UN. With more and more info coming out in regards to the Oil for Food scandal it is clear why no one else other than the forty some countries we went in with wanted us there. But who other than the evil Americans and Brits could be wrong in this situation.
 
aloges
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RE: US Spies 'dead Wrong' On Iraq WMD

Fri Apr 01, 2005 3:53 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 9):
Pot calling the kettle black . . . simple as that.

I beg to differ. I wasn't referring to anyone personal so I'm not calling anyone back, but I can see your point. Please try to see mine as well.

I'm just tired of some members' need to call "lefties" like me "communists" or whatever comes to their mind the second they post their attack. It's been done over and over, especially in threads like this one, and I was trying to prevent it from happening yet again.
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ANCFlyer
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RE: US Spies 'dead Wrong' On Iraq WMD

Fri Apr 01, 2005 3:56 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 15):
Please try to see mine as well.

I completely understand . . . the thread will turn into a flame fest - and it won't take long . . .

Regards
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NoUFO
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RE: US Spies 'dead Wrong' On Iraq WMD

Fri Apr 01, 2005 3:57 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 12):
If you read Bob Woodward's book, there is also plenty of evidence to show that the decision to invade Iraq was a foregone conclusion. Once this conclusion was made, the evidence just had to be tailored to suit the decision.

True, but this does not rule out that they indeed believed to find WMD in Iraq.
What puzzles me is that the Pentagon constantly "stovepiped" 3rd class intelligence directly to the Oval Office no matter how absurd the allegations were. The CIA didn't even have the change to classify those information. Level-headed people who attempted to warn the Administration were labeld unpatriotic and harassed even after they lost their jobs. And then there was this Curveball story.
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aloges
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RE: US Spies 'dead Wrong' On Iraq WMD

Fri Apr 01, 2005 4:07 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 16):
I completely understand . . . the thread will turn into a flame fest - and it won't take long . . .

Well, and I was trying to postpone that for at least a little.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
stealthpilot
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RE: US Spies 'dead Wrong' On Iraq WMD

Fri Apr 01, 2005 4:07 am

Not something we didnt know. Then again, did Bush care? He was fixed on the idea and nothing was going to change his mind. Where did the idea come from.... hmmmmmmmmmmmm

-Nikhil
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MD-90
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RE: US Spies 'dead Wrong' On Iraq WMD

Fri Apr 01, 2005 4:17 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 16):
I completely understand . . .

You ought to understand since you do it yourself all the time. It's pretty arrogant, but I suppose that shouldn't be unexpected for a cop.
 
jaysit
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RE: US Spies 'dead Wrong' On Iraq WMD

Fri Apr 01, 2005 4:24 am

Saddam hid an entire wing of Migs in the sand and look how long it took to find them.

Those MIGs had as much of a chance of flying as a gutted L1011 rotting in the sun in an airliner graveyard in Arizona. They had no parts, and were basically rotting in the Iraqi desert.

As far as when they were found, I believe they were found within a few weeks of when the war started.

This whole story has been bogus from the start. The ultimate result of the war (Saddam's trial, some semblance of democracy in Iraq) may negate the shoddy way the US went about making a case for war, however.
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tbar220
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RE: US Spies 'dead Wrong' On Iraq WMD

Fri Apr 01, 2005 4:29 am

Quoting Avek00 (Reply 11):
Many of you are forgetting that intelligence is by no means an exact science - even the best and most highly-trained analysts and spies will "get it wrong" at least occasionally.

Well this shoddy intelligence has cost the lives of 1,500 U.S. soldiers and upwards of 100,000 Iraqis. And has anybody been held responsible? I believe George Tenet got some sort of award...  Yeah sure
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ANCFlyer
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RE: US Spies 'dead Wrong' On Iraq WMD

Fri Apr 01, 2005 4:29 am

Quoting MD-90 (Reply 20):
You ought to understand since you do it yourself all the time. It's pretty arrogant, but I suppose that shouldn't be unexpected for a cop.

This from the kid who's a disciple of Dr. Lew . . .

Notice how much attention I'm giving this . . .

[Edited 2005-03-31 20:31:24]
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jdwfloyd
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RE: US Spies 'dead Wrong' On Iraq WMD

Fri Apr 01, 2005 4:30 am

No actually this occured on muliple occasions. He hid A/C at the start of the Gulf War and again during the past conflict. The reason they were found so quickly is that they were burried on the airfield, and not vary well to boot. My point is that he had months to hide a few tankers of VX or other such agents in the desert. And those migs were in complete flying condition, they roled out of the hanger and into the ditch.
 
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jetjack74
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RE: US Spies 'dead Wrong' On Iraq WMD

Fri Apr 01, 2005 4:32 am

Quoting Banco (Reply 3):
You know, I really don't believe that - not quite. I do believe that Bush and Blair really did think there were WMD's there, and that they were a threat

I think they did too. Bill Clinton did as well. In 1998, Clinton said that Saddam Hussien remains a great, and imminent threat to the national security of America and the security of the world. He went on to say that Saddam Hussien continues to evade weapons inspections, continues to defy the agreements he signed in 1991. John Kerry also reviewed the same evidence that the president saw, and he said on the senate floor in November of 02, "That if you don't believe that Saddam Hussien continues to be a threat to America's national security, then you should not vote for me".

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 5):
At the same time I think one reason for going to war that did not make it to the public was to defeat Saddam Hussein to be able to pull American troops off from Saudi-Arabia.

I don't think that had anything to do with it. We were unpopular there from the very beginning, but that didn't have anything to do with going to war. The suspective WMD issue, Saddam's continued support of suicide bombers in Israel, his training of terrorists, and his destablizing the Arab world.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 6):
I think Dubya and Blair were convinced by very, very poor intelligence there were WMD, only after they failed to find any did they begin the political tap dance

No, if you go back to Bush's presentation to the UN, he stated several reasons that Saddam must be dealt with. Bush gave Saddam many chances to comply with the 18 previous UN resolutions. He didn't, and that's why we went to war. One of the chief points he gave was the WMD's issue, but there were others.
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jaysit
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RE: US Spies 'dead Wrong' On Iraq WMD

Fri Apr 01, 2005 4:39 am

One of the chief points he gave was the WMD's issue, but there were others.

The reason presented to Congress and the American people were the WMDs. His chief hack, Condi Rice, was running around like a robot going "WMDs, WMDs." THe reason Congress authorized the war was because of WMDs.

Let's be serious here.

We're all sick of this sleazy doublespeak coming from this administration.
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ANCFlyer
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RE: US Spies 'dead Wrong' On Iraq WMD

Fri Apr 01, 2005 4:41 am

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 25):
No, if you go back to Bush's presentation to the UN, he stated several reasons that Saddam must be dealt with. Bush gave Saddam many chances to comply with the 18 previous UN resolutions. He didn't, and that's why we went to war. One of the chief points he gave was the WMD's issue, but there were others.

Agreed . . .

That said the title on the thread is about Shitty Intel on the WMD. That fact cannot be disputed.

Saddam should have been dealt with in '91 when we had a "real" Army there to take care of it . . . but it wasn't, and that was, IMO, a serious mistake.
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WestWing
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RE: US Spies 'dead Wrong' On Iraq WMD

Fri Apr 01, 2005 4:43 am

"We found the weapons of mass destruction. We found biological laboratories....for those who say we haven't found the banned manufacturing devices or banned weapons, they're wrong, we found them."

-Dubya (May 29, 2003)
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jdwfloyd
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RE: US Spies 'dead Wrong' On Iraq WMD

Fri Apr 01, 2005 4:48 am

All I have to say is that the American People agree with this administration. The Left has not controlled the House or Senate in 16 years and will have at LEAST 8 years with out the Oval Office. It is obvious that this is what the people want because they had there chance in 04 to change things and they didn't.
 
WestWing
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RE: US Spies 'dead Wrong' On Iraq WMD

Fri Apr 01, 2005 4:56 am

Quoting Jdwfloyd (Reply 29):
the American People agree with this administration

Ummm. To be accurate, it seems that 51% of the American People believed that Dubya,Cheney,Rummy and friends were more "morally upstanding" than Kerry & Co.
The best time to plant a tree is 40 years ago. The second best time is today.
 
skyservice_330
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RE: US Spies 'dead Wrong' On Iraq WMD

Fri Apr 01, 2005 5:11 am

Quoting Jdwfloyd (Reply 14):
every one including France Germany and Russia said he was in violation of all 18 or so resolutions set by the UN. With more and more info coming out in regards to the Oil for Food scandal

The ultimate ploy to divert attention from the subject of the thread which is about a report that the WHITE HOUSE has released that admits the evidence was phony. Mention something about France, Germany, the U.N. and Oil for Food all in one sentence and hopefully someone will bite. When it comes down to it, irregardless of the abovementioned 4, the evidence still wasn't there.
 
NoUFO
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RE: US Spies 'dead Wrong' On Iraq WMD

Fri Apr 01, 2005 5:15 am

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 25):
I don't think that (pulling off troops from Suadi-Arabia) had anything to do with it. We were unpopular there from the very beginning, but that didn't have anything to do with going to war.

I'm quite sure it became a major issue after 9/11.
I googled around a little and found this:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/i...aq/2003-05-30-wolfowitz-iraq_x.htm

Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz cited bureaucratic reasons for focusing on Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction, and said a "huge" result of the war was to enable Washington to withdraw its troops from Saudi Arabia.

Quoting WestWing (Reply 28):
"We found the weapons of mass destruction. We found biological laboratories....for those who say we haven't found the banned manufacturing devices or banned weapons, they're wrong, we found them."

Thank God the interviewer did not dare to ask the President for details.
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Superfly
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RE: US Spies 'dead Wrong' On Iraq WMD

Fri Apr 01, 2005 5:32 am

Again, whare is Osama Bin Laden?
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jetjack74
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RE: US Spies 'dead Wrong' On Iraq WMD

Fri Apr 01, 2005 6:31 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 33):
Again, whare is Osama Bin Laden?

I saw him at the 711 on Denny Way.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 27):
That said the title on the thread is about Shitty Intel on the WMD. That fact cannot be disputed.

Damn right it was, but that's intellegence reform was necessary. Hopefully we won't make that mistake again.

This right here is a prime example of the media twisting statements to ifer something different than what is mean't

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 32):
Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz cited bureaucratic reasons for focusing on Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction, and said a "huge" result of the war was to enable Washington to withdraw its troops from Saudi Arabia.

This is paraphrasing, not quoting. To the average person, this looks like he is saying "this a major reason we went to war".

Now look at the direct quote from the article:

During his interview with Vanity Fair in early May, Wolfowitz cited several payoffs from the war, including removing the need for American forces in Saudi Arabia

ie; No more patrolling the no-fly zone over Northern and southern Iraq. The keywords being "cited several payoffs" and "need", not "we're going to Iraq to blow shit up and have a grand old time doing it" as the media often presents it. Down the road, this will mean fewer deployments of USAF/USA/USMC personnel to Saudi Arabia. This will allow us to concentrate attention on Iran once Iraq stabilises.
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ANCFlyer
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RE: US Spies 'dead Wrong' On Iraq WMD

Fri Apr 01, 2005 6:44 am

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 34):
This will allow us to concentrate attention on Iran once Iraq stabilises.

Which a ridiculous thing to do at present . . .

We need to paying attention to the nut-case with nukes on the far side of the Pacific Ocean . . . immediate attention.
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jetjack74
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RE: US Spies 'dead Wrong' On Iraq WMD

Fri Apr 01, 2005 7:33 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 35):
Which a ridiculous thing to do at present . . .

The rantings of Kim Jong Il and his wackos in power are a sign they at least are willing to negotiate, however futile they are. But the unsupervised secretive actions of these insane clerics in Iran are something to far more dangerous. If the Iranians get their hands on nukes, I have no doubt in my mind they'll use them. Firstly, they'll aim right at Israel, then to Europe and the US.
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ANCFlyer
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RE: US Spies 'dead Wrong' On Iraq WMD

Fri Apr 01, 2005 7:45 am

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 36):
But the unsupervised secretive actions of these insane clerics in Iran are something to far more dangerous. If the Iranians get their hands on nukes, I have no doubt in my mind they'll use them.

Ok, let me rephrase - the interpretation I had of you post referencing the US "dealing" with Iran was that we'd go barreling in there like we did into Iraq. Balls to the wall. If that's not your idea, sorry. If it is, I submit it is wrong.

I'm for keeping an eye on them. As you point out above, the secretive actions of the religious nut cases in charge there bear considerable watching. I would also agree, Iran will use their Nukes when they get them, but they won't use them against the US - I don't think they've got the range. But Israel is likely glassed.

As for Dear Leader and his fruit loops - I a not so sure negotiation is on their mind - silly assed games yes. First we'll negotiate, then we won't . . . ok, I guess we will, naaahh, never mind. And then one day, out of the blue, Old Kim wakes up and find his favorite 12 year has left in the middle of the night, and decides it's time to blast away at Japan or South Korea or Vietnam or Alaska or . . . just for the hell of it.

IMO he's far more dangerous than the religious nut-cases in Iran . . .
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iakobos
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RE: US Spies 'dead Wrong' On Iraq WMD

Fri Apr 01, 2005 7:50 am

Quoting SKYSERVICE_330 (Thread starter):
Definately be interesting to see what the classified version has in it

Yes. I wont probably be around by that time, so I have to make a guess...

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 2):
Even if all the intelligence in the world had told Bush et al that Iraq had no WMDs, they would have twisted the information to make a case for war. The decision to invade Iraq was pre-determined based on ideological reasons

Indeed.
At the peak of hot-posts exchanges I have several times pointed to the fact that new US bases, their location and the timing for their construction undoubtedly show that the decision was taken LATEST begin Q4 2001, "possibly" even before 9/11.
This nullifies the "no compliance with xxx UN resolutions", "flawed intelligence" and all the PR bla-bla uttered ad nauseum.


Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 6):

I think Dubya and Blair were convinced by very, very poor intelligence there were WMD

I dont think I will make waves by stating that the US has, and by far, the most technologically capable intelligence gathering and interpretation instruments.
Upstream the US has the experts whom requested these intruments and are thereby the ablest of gatherers and interpreters.
In addition to the paraphernalia on land, in the air and in orbit for decades, they had also 10 years of data from all sorts of flying platforms, the findings of the UN mission (which incl. their own agents), and their moles in the field.

Poor intelligence (cf "dead wrong") sounds as concrete an excuse as vacuum.

The latest "report" officializes the version for the next 25 years.
Expect a few historians to write books in 2030 to entertain themselves, public attention does not focus on the past. History was written.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: US Spies 'dead Wrong' On Iraq WMD

Fri Apr 01, 2005 8:04 am

Quoting Iakobos (Reply 38):
I dont think I will make waves by stating that the US has, and by far, the most technologically capable intelligence gathering and interpretation instruments.

I would have to agree - seems pretty interesting to me that we can read a damn license plate on a car from 150,000 feet in the air and can't find one asshole hiding out along the Afghani/Pakistani border . . .

I have no argument to counter anyone's claim - be it Dead Wrong or otherwise - about our intelligence community. It simply failed, horribly.

Quoting Iakobos (Reply 38):
At the peak of hot-posts exchanges I have several times pointed to the fact that new US bases, their location and the timing for their construction undoubtedly show that the decision was taken LATEST begin Q4 2001,

I don't find this at all out of the ordinary Iakobos. Properly planning would suggest that there are contingencies for every country - including your Greece - for US Military bases. Some of the plans are obviously more firm than others, but they are in place. Period. I'm quite sure these plans were made in 2001 - hell maybe even the late 1990s. That is NOT unusual. . .
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iakobos
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RE: US Spies 'dead Wrong' On Iraq WMD

Fri Apr 01, 2005 8:41 am

Well CSM, there is a difference between contingency planning (ie. building bases) and actually building simultaneously a couple of bases (full size with 12,000ft runways) within less than 30' flighttime from the Iraqi border, when the US forces already have several facilities in the area.


If there is a base, there are also associated facilities and resources (energy production, roads, AA, comms, radar sites, et al)
Very advanced works show on satellite pictures in Jan 2002 in the N of Jordan.
Coincidence ?
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: US Spies 'dead Wrong' On Iraq WMD

Fri Apr 01, 2005 9:03 am

Quoting Iakobos (Reply 40):
Very advanced works show on satellite pictures in Jan 2002 in the N of Jordan.
Coincidence ?

I wouldn't think so . . . Jordan is and has been a ally of the US . . . I respect the country very much and what it has done for Middle East Peace.

I don't see the big deal, for a long time the US has stated it's desire to leave Central European bases, where there is no longer a deterent need based on the end of the cold war and develop bases elsewhere. If you'll allow the phrase, "Closer to the Fight". This is what I see happening, and I find it neither disturbing nor "coincidental" with anything else. Normal if you will.
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22right
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RE: US Spies 'dead Wrong' On Iraq WMD

Fri Apr 01, 2005 9:06 am

"dead wrong".... you bet!! They were wrong and a ship-load of American soldiers and Iraqi civilians are now dead.

I really, really wonder how people like Dubya, Rummy, Cheney, etc sleep at night with the murder of thousands of human beings on their hands!
"I never apologize! I am sorry, but that's the way it is!" - Homer Simpson
 
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jetjack74
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RE: US Spies 'dead Wrong' On Iraq WMD

Fri Apr 01, 2005 10:14 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 37):
As for Dear Leader and his fruit loops - I a not so sure negotiation is on their mind - silly assed games yes. First we'll negotiate, then we won't . . . ok, I guess we will, naaahh, never mind. And then one day, out of the blue, Old Kim wakes up and find his favorite 12 year has left in the middle of the night, and decides it's time to blast away at Japan or South Korea or Vietnam or Alaska or . . . just for the hell of it

Our foreign policy towards North Korea is multi-lateral talks with S Korea, China, Japan, and Taiwan. By engaging this fool, it says they want something, and they're trying to manipulate us into giving them something, just like they did with the Clinton Administration and fooled Albright. Talks must continue, but we musn't let Kim Jong Il dictate us. It sounds childish, but we can't let this idiot control us.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 37):
I'm for keeping an eye on them. As you point out above, the secretive actions of the religious nut cases in charge there bear considerable watching. I would also agree, Iran will use their Nukes when they get them, but they won't use them against the US - I don't think they've got the range. But Israel is likely glassed

Well they may not have the range to reach the US initally, but I think they'll use them against American interest's, and most certainly the Israelis.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 37):
Ok, let me rephrase - the interpretation I had of you post referencing the US "dealing" with Iran was that we'd go barreling in there like we did into Iraq. Balls to the wall. If that's not your idea, sorry. If it is, I submit it is wrong.


Just to go run into Iran? No, bad Idea. But if they are found to have be enriching weapons-grade uranium cakes, then I support neutralising the reactors as the Israelis did to the French-built reactors Iraq in 1981.
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ANCFlyer
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RE: US Spies 'dead Wrong' On Iraq WMD

Fri Apr 01, 2005 10:25 am

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 43):
Our foreign policy towards North Korea is multi-lateral talks with S Korea, China, Japan, and Taiwan. By engaging this fool, it says they want something, and they're trying to manipulate us into giving them something, just like they did with the Clinton Administration and fooled Albright. Talks must continue, but we musn't let Kim Jong Il dictate us.

Agreed . . . I continue to submit he is more dangerous than his Iranian counterparts . . . much more dangerous.
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SlamClick
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RE: US Spies 'dead Wrong' On Iraq WMD

Fri Apr 01, 2005 11:56 am

So let me see if I have this right.

The president makes the decision to go into Iraq virtually alone. He sends Colin Powell to the UN to explain the intel reasons behind this decision.

Turn out to be very few WMD. (Not true that there were 'none' as some objects relating were found.) So the President blames the intel.

He hires a bunch of people to study the situation and (Surprise!) they say the President (their boss) got bad skinny from his spooks.

What would you expect them to tell him?
Rather like our usual practice of hiring the chemical company that had the spill to evaluate the environmental impact.
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Klaus
Posts: 20649
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RE: US Spies 'dead Wrong' On Iraq WMD

Sat Apr 02, 2005 1:16 am

SlamClick: Turn out to be very few WMD. (Not true that there were 'none' as some objects relating were found.)

The few decayed (and well-known) remnants from the pre-embargo days which were found cannot be used here as they were nowhere near usable and they were not covered by any resolutions and - more specifically - not mentioned among the reasons for the invasion beforehand.

To my knowledge, there were no newly-developed or deployable WMDs discovered whatsoever. The only (marginal) violation of the restrictions was the Al Samoud missile program which exceeded the allowed range by a small margin (at dismally low targeting precision). And that program was uncovered and dismantled by the UN inspectors before the invasion prevented any further progress.

So the statement that there were no WMDs and thus no factual argument for the invasion is still correct.


SlamClick: Rather like our usual practice of hiring the chemical company that had the spill to evaluate the environmental impact

Indeed. Instead of putting the responsibility where the decisions were made originally - including the decision to ignore and even actively manipulate the outcome of the intelligence gathering even though the rest of the world already had a clearer picture of the situation. Another classic case of sacrificing pawns to evade taking responsibility.

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