OttoPylit
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Homosexual Stereotypes?

Wed Apr 06, 2005 9:17 am

I need someone to explain something to me, as I just don't get it. Please keep in mind I have nothing against or about gays, nor is this how all gay's are, but it seems that there is a good percentage like this.

What is with how gay guys and lesbians dress and act? For instance, if you are a lesbian, you are a WOMAN who likes other WOMEN. Which would mean that you like someone who has the femininity and looks of a woman. So why do so many seem to be more butch than I am? What's with the short boy haircut and wearing of men's clothes? At that point, you just look like 2 men together, so what's the point?

As far as gay guys, your a GUY who is attracted to other GUYS. Which means that you may like the ruggedness, masculinity, and male looks of another man. So what is with all the flamers? Men walking around, although not dressed like women, but with the high pitched voice, feminine acts, and sometimes even a purse? You may be a man, but at that point, your basically acting like a woman? If I am gay(which I'm not), then wouldn't I want to be a masculine man who enjoys the intimate company of another masculine man, not a guy who basically acts like a girl?

So what is the deal? Once again, I'm not saying that ALL gays and lesbians are this way, but it just seems that so many of the population is, and actually gives other gays and lesbians the weird reputations they sometimes have. I have spoken with many folks about this and so far, seem to have everyone agree with me.
I don't have a microwave, but I do have a clock that occasionally cooks shit.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Homosexual Stereotypes?

Wed Apr 06, 2005 9:21 am

Quoting OttoPylit (Thread starter):
For instance, if you are a lesbian, you are a WOMAN who likes other WOMEN. Which would mean that you like someone who has the femininity and looks of a woman. So why do so many seem to be more butch than I am?

I think you're mispercieving the physcology of homo/human-sexuality. You might be able to logically deduce something like that... but in reality, the complexities of human relationships and behavior yield different results.

[Edited 2005-04-06 02:22:58]
 
jake056
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RE: Homosexual Stereotypes?

Wed Apr 06, 2005 9:27 am

There are tons of "feminine" lesbians, the same way there are tons of "masculine" gays. You just happen to notice the stereotypes because they look different than the norm. No big deal, just a great big world where people run the gamut of behavior.

I can't answer the more specific question of why some gays and lesbians dress or act "sterotypically". No one knows the answer. Live and let live is my motto.
 
Klaus
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RE: Homosexual Stereotypes?

Wed Apr 06, 2005 9:43 am

My impression is that many people have identified with and have finally internalized the idiotic stereotypes they´ve encountered... And that´s not necessarily limited to gay people.
 
Klaus
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RE: Homosexual Stereotypes?

Wed Apr 06, 2005 9:49 am

By the way: Have you ever considered that your image of gay people might depend on those people who you (possibly by mistake) recognize as being gay? If you simply don´t recognize "non-stereotypical" people it can only further enforce the stereotype...
 
Newark777
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RE: Homosexual Stereotypes?

Wed Apr 06, 2005 9:53 am

Don't forget this stereotype: they all like to post on aviation forums! Big grin

Harry
Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
 
UAL747
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RE: Homosexual Stereotypes?

Wed Apr 06, 2005 10:02 am

Quoting Jake056 (Reply 2):
There are tons of "feminine" lesbians, the same way there are tons of "masculine" gays. You just happen to notice the stereotypes because they look different than the norm. No big deal, just a great big world where people run the gamut of behavior.

Very Good Point. There are many of us who are masculine and feminine according to our respective sex. I think one of the reasons you see the feminine acting men, as well as the masculine females is because they are ones that stand out to you.

Now, about why they are that way, I have my own theories. During childhood and adolescence there is a constant battle of gender identification. In some cases, children violate those gender identification boundaries. It is also interesting to note that it's more acceptable for girls to violate gender rules than it is for boys. When either sex violates those gender identification rules, i.e boys wearing mom's make-up/cothes, girls playing with GI-Joe and playing football, the parents or peers will often reject the child. Causing the child to return to their respective gender identification rules. (The rejection comes in the form of making fun of the child, or some sort of punishment. This phenomenon seems to happen naturallhy.)

This is purely theory of my own, but I speculate that after enough gender violations, the child's same-sex peers can do enough self-esteem damage that the child actually becomes in a sense, afraid of the same sex, and starts patterning his or her actions after the opposite sex, since the opposite sex seems to be more accepting. Thus, we have men acting feminine, and women acting masculine.

Now, I don't think this happens with every child/adolescent who is gay, but it does happen with some.

Another interesting twist to the gay world is that broken gender rules are readily accepted. That is to say, most gay men and gay women don't care too much if their friends live in breach of gender identification rules. Thus, it becomes okay for the average gay man to act more feminine. In fact, many times gay people only surround themselves with other gay people because their particular social coordinates, (ahem...the conservative Christian south) doesn't really allow them to have a fully functioning emotional and physical life outside of the "gay ghettos

UAL

[Edited 2005-04-06 03:05:40]
"Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy. Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy.....Okay, fine, we'll just turn 190 and Visual Our Way
 
gigneil
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RE: Homosexual Stereotypes?

Wed Apr 06, 2005 11:25 am

I will be the first gay to agree that stereotypes are stereotypes for a reason.

N
 
OttoPylit
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RE: Homosexual Stereotypes?

Wed Apr 06, 2005 12:22 pm

Apparently, everyone did not read the part where I said that these were purely stereotypes, but thus far, only UAL747 has answered the post with a somewhat relevant explanation.

I know a few gay men via work and most that I know are very masculine and "normal" appearing. But I have run into a few at work, and very many out of work that at totally out of the norm of how a man should act. As far as the lesbian part, that was mostly from my own peoplewatching encounters, as I don't think I know any actual lesbians. I am aware there are many "lipstick lesbians" out there, but for the most part, they are all butch looking. I noticed that during the news coverage of all the gay marriages recently, right before they were turned down by the Supreme Court. CNN showed a long line of people in CA waiting to get married and of all the lesbian couples that I saw, 99% of them were shorthaired, butch women. Some of these women looked so man-nish that I wondered if they had more testosterone flowing through their veins than I did. But I have yet to be able to confront any feminine man around as to if there is a reason why he acts that way.

There may be some kind of psychological damage or violations done to them, possibly during childhood, although I think the "I am born gay" part is a crock. I have just always kind of figured that a man may act fem or a woman may act butch is a way for them to come to terms with the fact that they are gay and feel more of the opposite gender, but if that is indeed true, then it throws the whole term of being "gay" out the window because then it brings the whole ideology of transgender possibilities into the picture.
I don't have a microwave, but I do have a clock that occasionally cooks shit.
 
jcs17
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RE: Homosexual Stereotypes?

Wed Apr 06, 2005 12:33 pm

I know a few gay people from work and school and at work and in class you would never know the difference. These guys aren't wearing lipstick, lisping, etc. The sole lesbian I know does not have a shaved head or look very "butch." However, if you're with these people in a social situation it's like "Wow...if I wasn't sure you were gay then, I'm absolutely sure now" It's like the gay guys go from "normal" men in a classroom/work situation, to absolutely unmistakeably stereotypically gay. I'm not bashing them for it, they're my friends, but it's comical to watch them get angry when someone brings up a gay stereotype and they do the exact same thing in social situations.

I have my own theory on the whole thing. I think a lot gay people are very uncomfortable about their sexuality and therefore must conform to a gay social norm in order to feel confident in their sexual preference.
America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
 
Newark777
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RE: Homosexual Stereotypes?

Wed Apr 06, 2005 12:39 pm

Quoting JCS17 (Reply 9):
I have my own theory on the whole thing. I think a lot gay people are very uncomfortable about their sexuality and therefore must conform to a gay social norm in order to feel confident in their sexual preference.

Or maybe they just act normally, and their sexual preference doesn't have an effect on their behavior. It's not like being gay makes guys act like flamers and girls like butches, and they're suppressing this expression. That is probably the way they normally act and normally are. I'm sure some people are pressured to act differently, but I know at least one gay guy who acts like any other straight guy just because that is the way he is.

Harry
Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
 
OttoPylit
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RE: Homosexual Stereotypes?

Wed Apr 06, 2005 1:51 pm

Quoting Newark777 (Reply 10):
Or maybe they just act normally, and their sexual preference doesn't have an effect on their behavior.

Why does this always seem to be some kind of defense line from gay people? Say something about them or in reference, it always ends up as, "Its completely normal" and is sometimes added to with, "you are the unnatural ones, not me." No, it's not that simple. It may be completely normal to that gay person, as they are used to be labeled as an "outcast" and such, but a person acting the complete opposite of the typical gender is not normal. If it were, I would not be asking the question that I did.

Once again, I am not trying to turn this into a gay bashing thread, nor do I have anything against gays. Like I said before, I know a few and to be honest, they are pretty good guys. They certainly dress better than me. I can't accessorize for shit. lol But the fact that so many of the stereotypical gay people(and don't act like they aren't out there, because they are) do act the way they do(lisp, fem actions, lesbian butch haircuts, etc.) and its very confusing to me.
I don't have a microwave, but I do have a clock that occasionally cooks shit.
 
flyboy1980
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RE: Homosexual Stereotypes?

Wed Apr 06, 2005 2:23 pm

OttoPylit -

Why is it such an issue for you? Does their behaviour threaten you in some way?

You asked a question - people responded and it appears you haven't learnt anything.

There is as much variation in behaviour amongst gay and lesbian people as their is amongst any other sexual orientation. If you refuse to believe this, then that is your choice.
 
skyservice_330
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RE: Homosexual Stereotypes?

Wed Apr 06, 2005 2:28 pm

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 11):
Why does this always seem to be some kind of defense line from gay people?

I don't understand how you are equating to this to some sort of defence because it isn't one at all. A persons sexuality does not dictate what they should wear or how they should act etc. Many people break gender roles e.g. Tomboys - see below. and they are straight.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 11):
but a person acting the complete opposite of the typical gender is not normal.

According to who? You? "Normal" is a setting on a washing machine, no more no less. Society has created gender roles for people, masculine for men and feminine for women, but there is nothing inherent in the person that says they have to follow these created roles. You were not born with an inherrent trait in you that said you had to play with GI Joes. You did, because you were socialized into believing that that is how you were suppose to act. Just because someone steps outside of a societal imposed role does not mean they are abnormal. There are many people who don't identify themselves as being gay or lesbian and take on a diffferent gender role or qualities of the other gender (Tomboys for example). Does it dierectly impact your life that the guy down the road talks with a lisp and wears tighter fitting clothes? No. If anything, I would congratulate the person on not being scared to be themselves and not conform to be what they are expected to be by society.

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 8):
There may be some kind of psychological damage or violations done to them, possibly during childhood, although I think the "I am born gay" part is a crock.

Or maybe there was damage or a "violation" (whatever the hell that means) done in the fetus and thus the person is born gay. Why don't you think someone can be born gay? Why do you think it is a crock?
 
SFOMEX
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RE: Homosexual Stereotypes?

Wed Apr 06, 2005 2:28 pm

Quoting OttoPylit (Thread starter):
So why do so many seem to be more butch than I am?

Ah, the irony is eating me. wink 
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skyservice_330
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RE: Homosexual Stereotypes?

Wed Apr 06, 2005 2:33 pm

Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 14):
Quoting OttoPylit (Thread starter):
So why do so many seem to be more butch than I am?

LOL *bites tongue* ... are they more masculine then you or are you just more feminine then them?? THIS is the question... jokes.

Sorry, I couldn't resist.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Homosexual Stereotypes?

Wed Apr 06, 2005 2:37 pm

Otto: You do realize that some of us homos look at straight people and can pick you out in a crowd too, and wonder why you act soooo hetero, right?  Smile
International Homo of Mystery
 
jcs17
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RE: Homosexual Stereotypes?

Wed Apr 06, 2005 2:41 pm

Quoting Flyboy1980 (Reply 12):
Why is it such an issue for you? Does their behaviour threaten you in some way?

I'll answer the same question that you asked him: No it's not threatening at all as much as it is really interesting from a psychological perspective.
America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
 
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solnabo
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RE: Homosexual Stereotypes?

Wed Apr 06, 2005 8:38 pm

If you watch Will & Grace you have this "dramaqueen" and the masculine gay guy wich I think´s ok, but there are some kinda political correctness to "gay are ok", specilly here in Sweden.

I dont mind though, but there are too much stereotypes on television/newspaper.

butch-dykes and screamqueens!

Micke//SE *my 0,02*
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OttoPylit
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RE: Homosexual Stereotypes?

Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:18 am

Quoting Solnabo (Reply 18):
If you watch Will & Grace you have this "dramaqueen" and the masculine gay guy wich I think´s ok, but there are some kinda political correctness to "gay are ok", specilly here in Sweden.

Solnabo, thank you. I was looking for a way to compare the two ways of acting. Will is very straight acting, while Jack is a total flamer. Now, in reality, of course, it doesn't faze me either way. But hasn't it made anyone wonder, what makes Jack's character act the way he does?

Normal is not a setting on a washing machine, normal is how the majority of the population act. If all gays or lesbians acted this way, it would be normal and there would be no discussion. But because all gays and lesbians don't act this way, the question that no one can seem to answer is "why." Most people say, "Well, there are variations in how people act, deal with it." Well, thats not a problem, but there has to be someone on this board who may be a psychoanalyst or someone who would have a pretty good reason on what would cause some gays to act against the majority. Who knows, maybe its something that no one can answer and the point is moot.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 16):
Otto: You do realize that some of us homos look at straight people and can pick you out in a crowd too, and wonder why you act soooo hetero, right?

I would sure as hell hope you could pick me out in a crowd. The reason I probably act so hetero is because thats who I am, just one of those wierd hetero's. Gosh they are weird, they actually like women, eww. lol If that seems weird, then this should be interesting. A co-worker of mine actually finds women totally attractive and falls in love with them, but only prefers sex with men and can't even imagine sex with a woman. Problem is, he can't find a woman who will "live" with that. I told him to maybe hook up with a prostitute. She gets all the other sex she needs, why would she want to come home to you wanting sex as well?

Quoting SKYSERVICE_330 (Reply 15):
are they more masculine then you or are you just more feminine then them??

LOL, I knew someone would bring that part up. It was just a matter of time.

Quoting JCS17 (Reply 17):
as much as it is really interesting from a psychological perspective.

Well, someone sees where I was trying to go with this.

Quoting SKYSERVICE_330 (Reply 13):
Why don't you think someone can be born gay?

Because you aren't born with anything. If you are born, and with the exception of eating, were never given any other kind of human contact, you would not be gay or straight. Everything that makes you who you are is some kind of influence at some point in your life. Were you born with an interest in aviation? No, you found something later in life that triggered the interest. Nor is anyone a natural born pilot, no one is naturally hetero or naturally homo. So no, you can't be born gay. If you are gay, then I believe it is something that has influenced you earlier in your life. It could be something direct or indirect, and doesn't even have to be anything like an interest in dolls(which, btw, I played with GIJoes and they are classified as "dolls"), but there is the influence that makes your mind go against the heterosexual norm. Just as you also have influences in order to be hetero, which is the path that more people tend to follow. Some people just use the "born gay" remark because they feel if they think they are born that way, they have no reason to feel that they are truly different because they couldn't help it. And if they feel that way, then that is an indication that they are ashamed or embarrassed by being gay instead of just being able to accept it.
I don't have a microwave, but I do have a clock that occasionally cooks shit.
 
mt99
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RE: Homosexual Stereotypes?

Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:35 am

If you are born, and with the exception of eating, were never given any other kind of human contact, you would not be gay or straight

That does not mean anything. When you were born.. what color was your hair? Did it change as you grew older due to outside influences?

If you mom would have bought you that toy, would your hair be purple?
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UAL747
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RE: Homosexual Stereotypes?

Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:54 am

Quoting OttoPylit (Thread starter):
Because you aren't born with anything. If you are born, and with the exception of eating, were never given any other kind of human contact, you would not be gay or straight.

I think there is SOME truth to this statement. I don't know who did this study, but if I recall, there was a study done with babies who at intimate contact with people, and those who did not. The children with much contact with other humans developed normally, whereas the ones who didn't, had many psychological development problems.

Here's my story about how I was gay if this helps any:

Ever since I was about 5 years of age, I knew something was different. However, most 5 year olds are not emotionally, physically, or psychologically to be cognitively aware of many differences. I was what you would call a "prodigy" child. Very intelligent for my age. I never was interesting in rough and tumble play that most boys were into. I preferred to be by myself when I played. I was often shunned by my peers for being different and the way I played. I started playing classical piano at age 5, and was somewhat of a young virtuoso at the time. I also rode horses, English style, and was very talented at that. I was an extremely good artist as well.

My father was more of the football, beer drinker type. He was on business most of the time, and wasn't really around.

When I was young, my gender violations either went un-noticed, or were un-corrected. Often times I would play dress-up with my mother's clothing, and often patterned my behavior after her, since she was the dominant figure in my life.

When I reached puberty, I became somewhat sexually cognitive. At first, I had the normal and masturbatory fantasies of women, but because of my un-corrected gender violations, I quickly began to feel like a lesser man, if you will. I thought that all the guys were somehow more manly that I was. I wished so much that I could be like them. Then, over a period of time, that wanting to be like them turned into a sexual desire. I can't really explain the transformation, but over a certain amount of time, my sexual desires for women diminished and I starting having sexual attractions to men.

What I have just presented to you is very much only a brief psychological study of homosexuality in children. However, I do think there is a genetic predisposition that plays a fundamental part, but I do not know enough information about it.

In closing, I honestly do not think it is a choice. Why would someone chose to be gay and live a life where hatred is directed towards you for being different. It would be much easier to live as a straight man, have a family, and not have people always questioning you.

Just some thoughts....

UAL
"Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy. Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy.....Okay, fine, we'll just turn 190 and Visual Our Way
 
mdsh00
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RE: Homosexual Stereotypes?

Thu Apr 07, 2005 2:05 am

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 8):
I think the "I am born gay" part is a crock.

I expect a giant flamefest to start very soon. *dons protective suit*
"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
 
Klaus
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RE: Homosexual Stereotypes?

Thu Apr 07, 2005 2:17 am

UAL747: What I have just presented to you is very much only a brief psychological study of homosexuality in children.

No, not really. It´s your subjective interpretation of your own personal development. That´s an entirely different cup of tea. People are gay or straight with all kinds of familial or developmental backgrounds.

And considering the ubiquity of homosexuality across all species (not even limited to mammals) it is extremely unlikely that the basic disposition is not a set of biological factors which exist for most species.
 
UAL747
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RE: Homosexual Stereotypes?

Thu Apr 07, 2005 2:21 am

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 8):
"I am born gay" part is a crock. I have just always kind of figured that a man may act fem or a woman may act butch is a way for them to come to terms with the fact that they are gay and feel more of the opposite gender, but if that is indeed true, then it throws the whole term of being "gay" out the window because then it brings the whole ideology of transgender possibilities into the picture.

Otto,

I'm very much interested in the same sex BECAUSE of the masculinity of men. I do not have an attraction to feminine acting men. I have no idea why, just doesn't interest me. I'm attracted to men because of their masculinity, it's been that way since I was young.

Secondly, this "transgender" idea you have going here is not something that happens a lot. I've been gay for my entire life and I have STILL yet to meet a transgendered person, or at least one that would admit it to me. I go to gay bars all the time and never have seen a transgendered person. Drag queens, yes, transgendered, no. And about drag queens, most of them prefer to be men. In fact, I talked with several OUT of drag, and most of them just do it for fun, and they love being guys.

UAL
"Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy. Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy.....Okay, fine, we'll just turn 190 and Visual Our Way
 
UAL747
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RE: Homosexual Stereotypes?

Thu Apr 07, 2005 2:22 am

Klaus,



Point taken....


UAL
"Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy. Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy.....Okay, fine, we'll just turn 190 and Visual Our Way
 
VSlover
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RE: Homosexual Stereotypes?

Thu Apr 07, 2005 3:05 am

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 24):
Secondly, this "transgender" idea you have going here is not something that happens a lot.

given your very limited exposure.

anynight in the meatpacking district here in nyc stumbling home from the clubs you cant throw a stone without hitting a tranny and his/her bottle of alize.
 
leroidescieux
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RE: Homosexual Stereotypes?

Thu Apr 07, 2005 3:31 am

To answer your question...
I don't believe that people take on a persona or personality to magnify their sexual orientation. Note: I say orientation, not preference. I feel that who you are and your sexuality is a predetermined part of you from birth. It is then our environment which makes us comfortable enough to accept it or live our lives in personal denial. I believe there are some men and woman out in the world who purposely have "explosive" and flamboyant personalities to draw attention to themselves. There are many people that are fashionably bi and gay who do it for the attention. There are also actual people who are bi and gay and feel they must let the world know. I feel it is an orientation and not a lifestyle, so why wear a banner? If who you are doesn't fit the "norm" thats fine and be proud of who you are. Remember, being true to yourself is the #1 road to happiness.
- Wil
Wil:The King of the Skies... B747: The Eternal Queen of the Skies
 
xpat
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RE: Homosexual Stereotypes?

Thu Apr 07, 2005 3:38 am

Quoting Mdsh00 (Reply 22):
I expect a giant flamefest to start very soon

No pun intended, right?  Wink
The only thing we have to fear is the sky falling on our heads. -Asterix
 
seb146
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RE: Homosexual Stereotypes?

Thu Apr 07, 2005 4:34 am

Whoo, boy! Where to start with this one.....

Most of us who are homosexual or bisexual can point to a specific event to tell people "At the time, I didn't know what was going on, but now, looking back, that was when I first realized I was different." I have noticed it happened about age 5. At that age, it is far too early for sexual feelings but the brain is starting to develop. Keep in mind, we only know about 10% to 15% of the brain's function. I always played "normal" boy games. I didn't have any desire to wear mom's clothes but as I was growing up, I knew my mind was different.

As to why some lesbians act butch and gay guys act fem:

I think their growing up had to do with that. Something happened when they were going through puberty from some authority figure. Something like "If you don't turn out straight, I will beat you till you do." So, they go out and magnify the stereotype just to piss off whoever did that to them. I know many many gays that do NOT do that. They look and act like their gender. "Normal" as you so quaintly put it. Hell, everyone at work thinks I have a girlfriend! I could take 50 of my friends, line them up and you will never know who is gay.

The "flamers" and "dykes" bother me just because I don't ever want to be stereotyped like them. But, I don't go out of my way to avoid them. That is who they want to be. They are not me. I am the only one who has to deal with the consequences of my own actions and my attitude. If they are comfortable with that, great.

My thought *dons asbestos suit* something in your past caused you to have a negative reaction to the "extreme gays." In other words, when I was young, the TV would always show the "extreme gays" at Pride rallies. My dad would always make negative comments about the "flamers" and "dykes" so, I have carried that stereotype with me. But, I think something more extreme happened to you that you make an even bigger issue of it.

GO CANUCKS!!
Life in the wall is a drag.
 
September11
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RE: Homosexual Stereotypes?

Thu Apr 07, 2005 5:21 am

ever heard of transexual?

man turning into lady

or

lady turning into man

transexual surgery now popular today

[Edited 2005-04-06 22:24:56]
Airliners.net of the Future
 
AA777
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RE: Homosexual Stereotypes?

Thu Apr 07, 2005 5:23 am

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 6):

This is purely theory of my own, but I speculate that after enough gender violations, the child's same-sex peers can do enough self-esteem damage that the child actually becomes in a sense, afraid of the same sex, and starts patterning his or her actions after the opposite sex, since the opposite sex seems to be more accepting. Thus, we have men acting feminine, and women acting masculine.

Now, I don't think this happens with every child/adolescent who is gay, but it does happen with some.

UAL,

You are basically theorizing what has already been theorized by Bem, a well known Psychologist that studies gender differences and sexuality. What you've described is called the "exotic becomes erotic" model of sexuality. In this case, the child who has been rejected because they act different starts to essentially believe that they 'might' be gay as everyone else says... this leads to acquiring roles of the opposite sex because they are comfortable with the opposite sex more (on a friendship basis....) But, they find the same sex members are ones they could never identify with.... so they then become attracted to them because they are "exotic" ...... unfortunately this does not explain how all gay people feel, so the theory itself is not fully developed. I am taking a human sexuality class and this is what I just learned....

-AA777
 
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OzarkD9S
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RE: Homosexual Stereotypes?

Thu Apr 07, 2005 5:44 am

Interesting topic, interesting points.

I'm what they call, for want of a better term "straight acting". I don't conciously act "normal", but maybe subconciously I do. Depending on statistics, 5-10% of the population identify themselves as gay. So we're definately in the minority. Perhaps as a defense mechanism, especially in a straight world where one never knows the attitudes of those around you towards gays, blending in is a natural act. We all do it to some extent, straight or gay. Why do business men wear dark suits? Because that's normal. Would a buisness man with an eye toward advancement in his profession wear a bright red suit to the office. Probably not. This same business man may wear Hawaiian shirts and red cotton shorts on his own time.

At my place of business, my sexual orientation is known and has been not long after I started there. It was a process of elimination on the part of my co-workers. Married? NO. Over 30? YES. Ever married? NO. Any kids? NO. etc...One woman finally asked me and I told her the truth. I lied about it for 22 years and I was only hurting myself. So if someone asks me I'm honest with them. Result of my honesty? People at work respect me for not giving a damn what they think and I do my job as well as anyone else there. I even won some monthly and one annual "Best Employee" award in company.

Now, once the truth was out did I turn into The Company Flamer? No, because that's not me anyway. 5 years later I still make a few people uncomfortable, but that's thier hangup, not mine. I'm otspoken and honest and when people in the lunchroom start talking raunchy, as they usually do, I throw in my tawdry stories or one-liners from my perspective and usually get more laughs by doing so.

NOW, in a social situation with friends, I can be more "flamboyant" for want of a better term, but defiantely not feminine. MOST of the gay men I know are generally "straight acting" at least in situations where they are in a predominantly heterosexual setting.

Some of the gay men I know are Total Queens 24/7. And bless them for it for as I think it takes more guts and balls to be an "obvious flamer" than "straight acting". Or maybe, just maybe, that's who they are, they're comforatable in thier own skin and the rest of the world can just kiss thier collective asses.

Viva La Difference! As the French would say...
Next up: STL-OAK-RNO-LAS-ICT-STL
 
747-600X
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RE: Homosexual Stereotypes?

Thu Apr 07, 2005 5:50 am

Then there's my theory which is that since it is now considered "cool" to be gay, in a somewhat revolutionary manner right alongside the general looseness of modern sexuality (in the American context, anyway), there are lots of people (young, primarily) who dress and act gay (men/boys slurring their SSSSSs, for example) just so they can have something to show off for lack of anything else. The only guy I never actually knew who was GAY, and a member of this forum, dressed, talked, walked, and acted like anyone else.

Additionally note - I pick on the "SSSSs" thing, the way gay men slur their SSSs, because that very much seems to be an act put on for the sake of "looking gay". I am aware of all of ZERO data supporting the theory that where you put your pecker affects how you pronounce words. My gut just reacts to that by saying, "Why are you doing that? Stop acting!" That's just my gut, but it really comes across as an act. Like I said, the only gay man I ever knew (who didn't have to make an enormous point out of how gay he was, ain't-it-cool) spoke just like most other folks.

[Edited 2005-04-06 22:53:44]
 
gigneil
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RE: Homosexual Stereotypes?

Thu Apr 07, 2005 5:54 am

Thhtop it itth not funny that i have a thpeech impediment guuurl.
 
UAL747
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RE: Homosexual Stereotypes?

Thu Apr 07, 2005 6:12 am

Gigneil.....what a contribution you are to the topic :-/
"Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy. Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy.....Okay, fine, we'll just turn 190 and Visual Our Way
 
Klaus
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RE: Homosexual Stereotypes?

Thu Apr 07, 2005 6:17 am

The problem with presenting yourself as a living stereotype is that it severely limits your range of expression. Being incapable of anything but the brightest colours is a sad restriction by itself.

When everything is an act, there´s little chance to really express yourself.
 
gigneil
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RE: Homosexual Stereotypes?

Thu Apr 07, 2005 6:18 am

I'm allowed. Nobody ever makes relevant contributions to the other gay topics, so I figured it was my turn.

Gays are inherently freer with their emotions. Frequently, that leads to interpretation by others as "feminine".

I also concur that the need to distinguish themselves from their straight oppressors is a powerful motivation. Younger gays spend more time wondering if someone else is gay than they actually do talking to that person, frequently with disasterous results on friendships and relationships. They feel it necessary to differentiate in order to be identified more easily by like minded individuals.

I'll admit, I talk a lot different now than I used to. I'm not really sure why it happened, and nobody could ever characterize me as effeminate. But its been definite and noticeable over the last 6 or 7 years.

N
 
jaysit
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RE: Homosexual Stereotypes?

Thu Apr 07, 2005 6:56 am

Its not cool or uncool to be gay. Being gay is just a biological state of being.

As for why some gay men appear to be effeminate (and there are plenty of those), there are different hypotheses. A few scientists have tried to ground the effeminate traits of some gay men in genetics. Others have shown that the effeminate gay stereotype that exists in the West is a result of cultural biases in how gay men should act with respect to their peers. For many decades, the only representation of the gay American man was a nellie mincing lisping queen, and I suspect that acting in this fashion may have been culturally propagated because of social pressures.

However, Richard Green, a psychiatrist from UCLA conducted studies in which he compared effeminate with masculine boys, and found that boys who grow up to become gay often engage in "gender inappropriate play" in early childhood. Almost 75% of the effeminate boys self-identified as gay when adult. The studies also showed that the boys did not copy their behavior from other children in the family, and so Green et al are seeking to find a biological basis for this behaviour.

Personally, as a child and a teen, I was aware of the stereotype of the effeminate gay man, and afraid as I was that I would be found out to be gay, tried my damndest to act "straight." I have to admit that as a kid, I was more drawn to books and art than I was to athletics, but played sports (tennis, rugby, rowed crew, etc.) because I was aware that this is what masculine men do. While I am a good tennis player, and have always been athletic, my sister and I still joke that I throw a baseball like a girl (I have to admit that I do !!) but I prefer to watch baseball than play it, so who cares !
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
sevenair
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RE: Homosexual Stereotypes?

Thu Apr 07, 2005 7:24 am

well, im totally gay, and no one guessed it, I act totally strtaight. I must say, when i c stereotypical charcaxcters, (ie the gay on Emmerdale-UK) who dress in womens clothes, go clothes shopping, have girly nights in, and who say 'sweety' just makes my bloo boil!!

I must say, I like Will and Grace-it is gay without any disgustin, crude, over-generalistic references to sexual activities, which not all gay people do, i for one, certainly dont
 
UAL747
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RE: Homosexual Stereotypes?

Thu Apr 07, 2005 7:29 am

The thing is, the extreme always stands out, and that's what people notice. I have many gay friends who do not act feminine, and I myself do not act feminine, you just notice the ones who do, because they are the ones who stick out, thus the stereotype.

UAL
"Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy. Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy.....Okay, fine, we'll just turn 190 and Visual Our Way
 
highpeaklad
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RE: Homosexual Stereotypes?

Thu Apr 07, 2005 8:06 am

I agree UAL 747. You think the stereotype is the majority because they are the ones you notice. How do you tell if someone is gay? The only way is for them to tell you.
Don't try to keep up with the Joneses - bring them down to your level !
 
flyboy1980
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RE: Homosexual Stereotypes?

Thu Apr 07, 2005 8:56 am

I just have to ask again - why is this such an issue?

People are people - we are all different, and not all people fit within the socially constructed idea of "normal". If everyone was "normal" what a bland and boring planet we'd have to live on.

So what if some gay men have feminine behavioural traits, or some lesbian women cut their hair short? Who is this hurting? If they are just being themselves then why should they adjust their behaviour? So it doesn't offend someone as closed minded as OttoPylit?
 
OttoPylit
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RE: Homosexual Stereotypes?

Thu Apr 07, 2005 12:50 pm

Oh my God, after I had already thrown in the towel and came to the conclusion that either no one understood my point or just didn't get it, all of a sudden, some coherence and sense comes on the post. Its about damn time. lol

Reading some of the latter posts, very good points are made and some people's personal stories shed light on reasoning and possibilities. But then again, I guess I can see that there are always a couple of jackasses on every thread.

I would like to take a moment to bring light to those who are actually producing worthwhile information to the thread. UAL747, Leroixdescieux(Dude, get an easier-to-spell-name or from now on, settle for L-guy when I thank someone. LOL), Seb 146, AA777, OzarkD9S, 747-600X, are all people who have contributed in some way and helping make some sense and use of the thread.

Gigneil, I will send you the bill from my doctor. I am laughing so hard that I will need something to stitch up my sides. rotfl 

Flyboy1980, I think you have some serious issues to clear up, apparently with yourself. I do not know if you are gay or not, nor do I care. I am guessing that you ARE one of the stereotypical types that I have listed and are offended. That appears to be your problem, not mine, so don't bring it to me. Since you did not read ANY of my previous posts, I don't know what use this will do, but I will say it again, and for the last time. I could care less who you are or how you act. I could care less where you stick your talleywhacker(or some womanly parts for the lesbians reading). You are proving exactly what I said in my first post, that some dick(pun intended for you, my friend) would come on here and think this is some kind of gay bashing thread. Its not. It is merely questions as to why some homosexuals act the way they do, which appears outlandish or ridiculous to most people, including many other homosexuals. If you would like to start a thread and begin bashing "closed minded straights" like me, go ahead. You're more than welcome, and I will even add to the fun. Given the fact that I have many gay friends at work(where I freely get much of my information), have attended a gay club(hey, they play good music at the Blue Oyster and I was only there to see the drag queens, lol), I guess my closed minded self should apologize to you for being so overbearing and cruel, and for bashing all the gay people on here, right? Well, keep waiting, Kiwi-boy.

There's a good new username for you, right there.


Otto
I don't have a microwave, but I do have a clock that occasionally cooks shit.
 
flyboy1980
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RE: Homosexual Stereotypes?

Thu Apr 07, 2005 2:30 pm

OttoPylit - point taken. I apologise.

It just appeared that you were asking for justification (your sentences mostly started with "so what..." or "why") of their behaviour - something that I don't think any of us have the right to do. Your initial post also made no mention of your interest in the psychology of the subject.

I was trying to get across that if that is their natural behaviour, then that is just who they are.

Yes, I am gay. I don't know if I am stereotypical. I'm just me. I don't lisp and I don't do drag, I like to watch sport on TV and if I'm choosing an alcoholic drink I'll pick beer. Then again, sometimes I iron my jeans, I use a facial scrub once a week and use moisturiser on my face every morning. I also like airliners, like you do. I don't like gay clubs much and would rather go to a bar where I can hear the conversation. I could keep going...

I wasn't offended - nothing about your post was insulting to gay people. What wasn't clear (to me anyway) was your motivations for starting this topic.
 
OttoPylit
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RE: Homosexual Stereotypes?

Fri Apr 08, 2005 3:12 am

Flyboy,

Well, when I was trying to write the original post, I was trying to find someway to write it that wouldn't actually come out as sounding offensive to any stereotypes that are on here. Being that this world is so freaking politcally correct, it seems that sometimes you can't sneeze without offending someone, we can both agree on that. So I will admit that my original thread could probably come across 2 ways, and I tried to make it clear more than once that the whole thing was nothing against gays, nor did all gays act that way. If anything, I was more curious as to why some gays and lesbians act the way of the other gender. They are more than welcome to be who they want to be, but is there anything wrong with me wanting to understand why?

We would both choose beer, and believe it or not, sometimes jeans to need an iron thrown on them. I wouldn't say I use a facial scrub regularly, but I do keep one hanging in my shower. After all, you never know when you might need it. If I've been to the beach and my face is sunburned, I know once I start peeling, I will need it.

Sorry if I was a little hard on you in that last post. It just seemed that some people weren't getting it.

OttoPylit
I don't have a microwave, but I do have a clock that occasionally cooks shit.
 
avek00
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RE: Homosexual Stereotypes?

Fri Apr 08, 2005 5:19 am

Quoting Flyboy1980 (Reply 42):
I just have to ask again - why is this such an issue?

N.B. At the risk of whatever, I'll give you an answer to this question based on my life observations thus far. I hope you and others will appreciate the fact that I am trying to be a forthright as possible in presenting my observations:

IME, a good deal of the homophobia present in the West does not stem from a fundamental hatred of the choice one makes in sleeping partners (which I'll label here as "homosexuality"). However, many people (even those who otherwise have no gripes with "homosexuality") DO get perturbed by the severe effeminism displayed by many if not most gay men (With fire-retardant suit on, I'm going to label this "faggotry" - IME, the mannerisms of lesbians just don't faze people much one way or the other). Because many people believe that a 1:1 correlation between "homosexuality" and "faggotry" exists, the revulsion against "faggotry" often manifests itself as anti-homosexual sentiments.
Live life to the fullest.
 
N1120A
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RE: Homosexual Stereotypes?

Fri Apr 08, 2005 5:27 am

Quoting Avek00 (Reply 46):
IME, a good deal of the homophobia present in the West does not stem from a fundamental hatred of the choice one makes in sleeping partners (which I'll label here as "homosexuality"). However, many people (even those who otherwise have no gripes with "homosexuality") DO get perturbed by the severe effeminism displayed by many if not most gay men (With fire-retardant suit on, I'm going to label this "faggotry" - IME, the mannerisms of lesbians just don't faze people much one way or the other). Because many people believe that a 1:1 correlation between "homosexuality" and "faggotry" exists, the revulsion against "faggotry" often manifests itself as anti-homosexual sentiments.

Earl makes some interesting points here about the reasoning given by society for their discrimination and marginalization of Homosexual members, but this is not the actual reason for the stereotyping.

I think that may have been the case in ancient Greece, where the dominant males, whether gay or straight, were the ones with power and the women and male "bottoms" were discriminated against

However, in modern times, effeminism acts in 2 ways. One, it is a defense mechanism and callsign for gay men to make sure they can stay in their group, as well as the expectation placed on them by society because of their preferences (and I don't mean sexual, I mean things like interest in fashion, etc.). Barring those who have actual conflicts between their sense of being and gender as compares to the body and sex they are born with (who often turn to being transsexual), this effeminism stems from the expectations of society for people with certain interests. The Second thing about effeminism is that it is an easy thing for those most scared of homosexuality to target as their means of justification for their actions In reality, it is the fear of the differences in people and fear of non-conformation that people hate
and the fear of having these supposedly non-conforming traits in one's self. While the truth is that homosexuality is just as normal as heterosexuality, society creates these stereotypes to divide itself and push away from the other groups. Gay men and women are also guilty following these "rules" simply because they fear rejection by what few people they have on their side if they don't conform to "norms".
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
seb146
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RE: Homosexual Stereotypes?

Fri Apr 08, 2005 6:00 am

Let me also expand on one of my previous points:

I am gay. If someone (i.e. co-worker, person on the street, etc.) asks if I am gay, I say yes. That is the truth. I do not act femme, lisp, use the words "sweetie" or "hun." Only two people I work with know I am gay. I prefer to gain respect based soley on my merits. I firmly believe a persons sexual orientation is their business, so I do not make an issue of it.

Some femme guys think that they will get respect if they act that way. "Oh, look at me. Poor little queer boi trying to make it in a hetero world..." So, what? I have worked with other gay guys that act that way. I don't focus on the act. They find out quickly I give respect to people that try. I have noticed they tend to bring it down a bit when I focus on something other than their act. But, sometimes the act is overcompensating for something else lacking in their life. I did the act for a few months because I thought it was how to get a boyfriend. Don't laugh. I was just out and grew up in a small town! I didn't know!

Also, when a question is asked in the right way, people don't get offended. If someone asks me why I am gay, I will explain. No offense taken if the question is worded correctly. So, go on and ask one of them on the street. You may be surprised.

GO CANUCKS!!
Life in the wall is a drag.
 
gigneil
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RE: Homosexual Stereotypes?

Fri Apr 08, 2005 6:38 am

I can't help it. I use the words "sweetie", "darling", and "sweetie darling" entirely too often... but only in the appropriate environs.

N

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