rjpieces
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Dutch Parliament Member Causing Uproar

Thu Apr 07, 2005 4:47 am

A fantastic article. I recommend that everyone read through the whole thing.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/03/ma...=1112816122-e4dlpJrTBPi9h7KHCuBDww


Last spring, Ayaan Hirsi Ali took her ''Dutch mother'' -- the woman who taught her the language and cared for her after she arrived in the Netherlands as a refugee in 1992 -- to lunch at the Dudok brasserie, near the Parliament in The Hague. As always, Hirsi Ali's armed security detail was there. They have been her companions since she started receiving death threats in September 2002. Hirsi Ali, who was born in Somalia and has been a member of the Dutch Parliament since January 2003, had endorsed the view that Islam is a backward religion, condemned the way women live under it and said that by today's standards, the prophet Muhammad would be considered a perverse tyrant. She had also announced that she was no longer a believing Muslim. The punishment for such apostasy is, according to strict interpretations of Islam, death. That day at the Dudok, several dozen vocational students were taking up the main restaurant, so she and her guards parked at two tables near the bar. Hirsi Ali had her back to the restaurant when one of the students, apparently a Dutch convert to Islam, tapped her on the shoulder. ''I turned around,'' she recalls in her elegant English, ''and saw this sweet, young Dutch guy, about 24 years old. With freckles! And he was like, 'Madam, I hope the mujahedeen get you and kill you.' '' Hirsi Ali handed him her knife and told him, ''Why don't you do it yourself?''
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Logan22L
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RE: Dutch Parliament Member Causing Uproar

Thu Apr 07, 2005 5:10 am

If I could, I'd add Ayaan Hirsi Ali to my respected users list. I'm not trying to be anti-Islam, but I think it's admirable that she chose her path. She didn't let family tradition dictate her future. She assessed the situation, and she made up her own mind. This is truly admirable. To her father who has rejected her and the student who hopes that the mujahedeen kill her, you just don't get it, and I'm sure you never will. banghead 

Logan
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dl021
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RE: Dutch Parliament Member Causing Uproar

Thu Apr 07, 2005 5:20 am

Quoting RJpieces (Thread starter):
''I turned around,'' she recalls in her elegant English, ''and saw this sweet, young Dutch guy, about 24 years old. With freckles! And he was like, 'Madam, I hope the mujahedeen get you and kill you.' '' Hirsi Ali handed him her knife and told him, ''Why don't you do it yourself?''

I second Logans thought on this. This woman showed she is willing to lay her life on the line, and really put this kid on the money. I hope he learned from her example.

I wish that the people who claim that Islam is a completely benign religion would take a minute to read this and see that even in Holland...the whitebread land of tulips and canals, that the violence and viciousness preached openly by many leaders of this religion is causing unrest and serious concern. Assassinations and terror are part of the game of persuasion with these people and only courageous men and women who are willing to take the hits will show these murderers what real moral fiber is all about.
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NoUFO
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RE: Dutch Parliament Member Causing Uproar

Thu Apr 07, 2005 5:33 am

She's certainly not only one of the most idiosyncratic but also authentic politicians. I admire her and wish her luck. I'm afraid she will need it (good luck, not admiration).
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qr332
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RE: Dutch Parliament Member Causing Uproar

Thu Apr 07, 2005 6:35 am

Surprise surprise, RJ posted this article... I would read it all, but unfortunatley I don't have a subscription at NYTimes.

Quoting Logan22L (Reply 1):
If I could, I'd add Ayaan Hirsi Ali to my respected users list. I'm not trying to be anti-Islam, but I think it's admirable that she chose her path.

Which path would that be exactly?

Quoting DL021 (Reply 2):
that the violence and viciousness preached openly by many leaders of this religion is causing unrest and serious concern.

Could you please elaborate on this point? What violence and viciousness are you talking about, and why is it becasue a few members of my religion are choosing to do this, my entire religion is held responsible?

Quoting DL021 (Reply 2):
Assassinations and terror are part of the game of persuasion with these people and only courageous men and women who are willing to take the hits will show these murderers what real moral fiber is all about.

We'll take lessons from America instead and start invading other countries so we can really persuade people then, eh?
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aviationfreak
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RE: Dutch Parliament Member Causing Uproar

Thu Apr 07, 2005 6:37 am

Many Dutch are afraid she will be killed by a suicide attacker because the assault on Theo van Gogh was one (although he, the attacker still lives) And to be honest, I think it is very hard to protect someone against a suicide attacker.

Sander
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yyz717
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RE: Dutch Parliament Member Causing Uproar

Thu Apr 07, 2005 6:52 am

Hirsi Ali is a truly amazing and brave woman. There was a recent 60 Minutes segment on her. The above restaurant story seems so typical of her. Good for her.
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Logan22L
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RE: Dutch Parliament Member Causing Uproar

Thu Apr 07, 2005 7:00 am

Quoting QR332 (Reply 4):
Which path would that be exactly?

She didn't just accept that she was born into a certain faith and accept it. She chose to investigate the ins and outs of Islam and decided she didn't care for some of those aspects; in fact she cares enough to say she is no longer of the Muslim faith.

She chose. Probably knowing full well that it would mean a bounty on her head. I have far more respect for someone who researches something and makes a concious decision to change than I do for someone who never questions things into which they were born and simply acts them out. Since there can only be one truth, all faiths are both right and wrong.

Logan
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jaysit
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RE: Dutch Parliament Member Causing Uproar

Thu Apr 07, 2005 7:07 am

Hirsi Ali is quite remarkable.

I loved this statement about her"

"For her this 60's liberal culture is only sunshine."

I couldn't agree more.

However, one of my best friends, a Pakistani woman, is a feminist, a capitalist, and a Muslim. She has her own interpretation of Islam which includes wearing a mini-skirt to work and enjoying a good glass of wine. Her one major nod to Islam is that she would prefer to marry a liberal Muslim man.
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nycflyer
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RE: Dutch Parliament Member Causing Uproar

Thu Apr 07, 2005 7:33 am

God bless Hirsi Ali. She has my respect and admiration. The fact that a politician (who's not head of state) in a developed, western, Liberal country that has benefited from the Enlightenment, gets daily death threats and has full-time bodyguards and lives in an undisclosed location, is disgusting. I hope this climate of fear doesn't spread elsewhere, but comes to an end, immediately.

Why are radical Muslims afraid of freedom of speech? Why must they want to kill someone who speaks out against them? Hmmm, maybe it's because she's on to something.
 
rjpieces
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RE: Dutch Parliament Member Causing Uproar

Thu Apr 07, 2005 9:12 am

Quoting DL021 (Reply 2):
Assassinations and terror are part of the game of persuasion with these people and only courageous men and women who are willing to take the hits will show these murderers what real moral fiber is all about.

Correction. Only corageous Muslim men and women....

Quoting QR332 (Reply 4):
Which path would that be exactly?

Theo van Gogh's brutal murder, cheering on 9/11, happy when innocent civilians die in Israel ring a bell?

Quoting QR332 (Reply 4):

We'll take lessons from America instead and start invading other countries so we can really persuade people then, eh?

You fail to understand that the US invasion of Iraq has given the Iraqi people free elections and a chance at democracy. When was the last time you voted QR LOL?

Quoting Aviationfreak (Reply 5):
Many Dutch are afraid she will be killed by a suicide attacker because the assault on Theo van Gogh was one (although he, the attacker still lives) And to be honest, I think it is very hard to protect someone against a suicide attacker.

Well, from what I understand, the attack on van Gogh was a surprise. It wasn't like he had bodyguards trailing him. It appears that she is very well protected.

Quoting NYCFlyer (Reply 9):
God bless Hirsi Ali. She has my respect and admiration. The fact that a politician (who's not head of state) in a developed, western, Liberal country that has benefited from the Enlightenment, gets daily death threats and has full-time bodyguards and lives in an undisclosed location, is disgusting. I hope this climate of fear doesn't spread elsewhere, but comes to an end, immediately.

Why are radical Muslims afraid of freedom of speech? Why must they want to kill someone who speaks out against them? Hmmm, maybe it's because she's on to something.

It is time for Europeans to decide, as Commentary magazine wrote, “Either Islam gets Europeanized, or Europe gets Islamized”. Even Winston Churchill wrote that as an effect of the rise of Mohammedanism, “the civilization of modern Europe might fall”. Europe is at a crucial junction today.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
dl021
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RE: Dutch Parliament Member Causing Uproar

Thu Apr 07, 2005 9:47 am

Quoting QR332 (Reply 4):
What violence and viciousness are you talking about, and why is it becasue a few members of my religion are choosing to do this, my entire religion is held responsible?

Thank you for responding and showing that you read only the part that you expect to read. You also show the typical double talk one gets from a spokesman for these people who say at the same time "We don't do that....and....It's only a few radicals...nothing to worry about...unless you lower your guard and let them into your country with access to explosives and tanker trucks."

Let me save the trouble and reprint what I said here.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 2):
I wish that the people who claim that Islam is a completely benign religion would take a minute to read this and see that even in Holland...the whitebread land of tulips and canals, that the violence and viciousness preached openly by many leaders of this religion is causing unrest and serious concern. Assassinations and terror are part of the game of persuasion with these people and only courageous men and women who are willing to take the hits will show these murderers what real moral fiber is all about.

I by no means convicted all of Islam with this brush, but it is much more than just a few radicals causing all the trouble. There are violence preaching imams and mullahs all over the world, and you cannot compare this religious warlike fervor with anything else in the modern era. The Christians of the middle ages perhaps, but that was 500 years ago.

Moderates in your religion are afraid to speak too loudly for fear of reprisals, and I don't mean egging the car. Wahabists and others teach religious justification for murder and suicide, and this young convert is an example of what I describe.

Can you actually expect me to believe that you honestly believe that there is not a huge problem with your religion in how it is being presented by its leaders to the people?

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 8):
owever, one of my best friends, a Pakistani woman, is a feminist, a capitalist, and a Muslim. She has her own interpretation of Islam which includes wearing a mini-skirt to work and enjoying a good glass of wine. Her one major nod to Islam is that she would prefer to marry a liberal Muslim man

Your friend sounds like many moderate Jewish women I know, perhaps minus the nose job. One question...does she live in the west or back in Pakistan? I think I know the answer.

I'd like QR332 to tell me what would happen to this woman if she moved back to a predominately Muslim country.

Quoting QR332 (Reply 4):
We'll take lessons from America instead and start invading other countries so we can really persuade people then, eh?

Oh, please....get past this. Three years ago Islamists were constantly talking about the threat of the zionists and the Crusades as reasons to distrust and hate the west. Well, if a muslim nation would invade a neighbor and install a free democracy then I would probable be all for it. The Iraqis seem to be moving forward. Too bad you won't.
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Schoenorama
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RE: Dutch Parliament Member Causing Uproar

Thu Apr 07, 2005 9:47 am

People in The Netherlands have been sceptic of this event, given the fact that her security guards never noticed anything. The student in question even wrote a letter to the editor (of the newspaper in which Hirsi Ali's column describing he event appeared) in which he denied ever having threatened Hirsi Ali.

Personally, I believe Hirsi Ali constantly needs to have all cameras focused on her
so she can make her statements (which aren't always those of the party she belongs to) and which contribute little to nothing to solve the issues at hand. She is the Ann Coulter of Dutch politics.

She left her former political party, the Socialistic PVDA (opposition party right now) and made a sharp rightturn to the right-wing VVD (in the coalition government), an unprecedented move in Dutch politics.

Quoting NYCFlyer (Reply 9):
undisclosed location,

Until she decided to disclose it herself to press the Goverment to 'upgrade' her to a more luxurious location. Heck, she even disclosed where her former VVD party collegue (and now ultra-ultra rightwing-nut) Geert Wilders was located!


Wilders! 'Nough said!  vomit 
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rjpieces
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RE: Dutch Parliament Member Causing Uproar

Thu Apr 07, 2005 2:20 pm

Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 12):
She is the Ann Coulter of Dutch politics.

Please. Ann Coulter is a racist lunatic. I can't quite think of an American version of Hirsi Ali, perhaps John McCain or Joe Lieberman, but both of them are still politicians. Natan Sharansky from Israel comes to mind too.
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Schoenorama
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RE: Dutch Parliament Member Causing Uproar

Fri Apr 08, 2005 12:53 am

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 13):
Please. Ann Coulter is a racist lunatic. I can't quite think of an American version of Hirsi Ali, perhaps John McCain or Joe Lieberman, but both of them are still politicians. Natan Sharansky from Israel comes to mind too.

Hirsi Ali is a lunatic, in my opinion. Her apparent confrontation with this Dutch student doesn't all of a sudden make her some hero. Hirsi Ali, just as her male counterpart Wilders (pictured above) is nothing more than a politician who knows how to play the masses. They actually say those things the public only dares to think, yet they don't offer alternatives or solutions.

As politicians, they have a responsability towards the people and for the security and safety of the nation as a whole, they simply should be a lot more carefull with their public statements. They might not be advocating openly the use of force against Muslims, their statements are certainly heard by the ultra-right wingers (the Lonsdalers, the skinheads and other scum) who believe setting mosques on fire and threatening immigrants is justified.
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jaysit
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RE: Dutch Parliament Member Causing Uproar

Fri Apr 08, 2005 1:18 am

Your friend sounds like many moderate Jewish women I know, perhaps minus the nose job. One question...does she live in the west or back in Pakistan? I think I know the answer.

Actually she lives both in Lahore and in Washington, DC, as her job permits it. The only difference is that she doesn't wear a miniskirt in Pakistan, but a rather low cut salwar kameez. Basically she shows more T in Pakistan, less A.

Besides, there are plenty of boozy Muslims in Pakistan (as I learned from my visit there) who can match their Indian counterparts in drinking scotch (a lot of booze gets smuggled in from India or Dubai) and who love a good party.

In my opinion, one religion is as good or as bad as the next. If the West had not gone through the age of scientific rationalism where religion and civil life were separated, we'd be living under a Christian Taliban, who as we all know can be just as vicious as any maniacal Mullah.

Its quite interesting to see the American right suddenly jump on the bandwagon defending Dutch social liberalism - but only because of their disdain and contempt for Islamo-fascists. The American right and Islamo-fascists have far more in common (bigotry, racism, hatred of gays, promulgation of a theocratic state, anti-birth control), than the American right has in common with the socially progressive and tolerant Dutch.
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qr332
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RE: Dutch Parliament Member Causing Uproar

Fri Apr 08, 2005 3:23 am

Quoting Logan22L (Reply 7):
She didn't just accept that she was born into a certain faith and accept it. She chose to investigate the ins and outs of Islam and decided she didn't care for some of those aspects; in fact she cares enough to say she is no longer of the Muslim faith.

She chose. Probably knowing full well that it would mean a bounty on her head. I have far more respect for someone who researches something and makes a concious decision to change than I do for someone who never questions things into which they were born and simply acts them out. Since there can only be one truth, all faiths are both right and wrong.

All I can say is that not everybody who is born Muslim will agree with their faith, just like with any faith. I admire her strength, even if I do disagree with the path she took.

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 8):
However, one of my best friends, a Pakistani woman, is a feminist, a capitalist, and a Muslim. She has her own interpretation of Islam which includes wearing a mini-skirt to work and enjoying a good glass of wine. Her one major nod to Islam is that she would prefer to marry a liberal Muslim man.

Many women in Islam do have a lot of freedom, but it does not have to come in the form of miniskirts or alcohol.

Quoting NYCFlyer (Reply 9):
The fact that a politician (who's not head of state) in a developed, western, Liberal country that has benefited from the Enlightenment, gets daily death threats and has full-time bodyguards and lives in an undisclosed location, is disgusting. I hope this climate of fear doesn't spread elsewhere, but comes to an end, immediately.

It is disgusting, I believe that she made the choice to turn back on Islam, and that its not for us to punish her, but that is up to God. But, you think that only radical Muslims are the ones who give death threats because they oppose her views? Many important people recieve death threats because radicals don't agree with them.

Quoting NYCFlyer (Reply 9):
Why are radical Muslims afraid of freedom of speech? Why must they want to kill someone who speaks out against them? Hmmm, maybe it's because she's on to something.

On to something my ass. Its because more radical Muslims believe she should pay the price for turning back ok Islam - death. Its nothing to do with their fear of free speech. Lebanon, a predominantly Muslim country, has free speech, and many Muslim countries are going through reforms to allow more freedom too. Also, Indonesia is a Muslim democracy, and Malaysia, also a democracy, has many Muslims. Explain that then...

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 10):
Correction. Only corageous Muslim men and women....

She's not Muslim.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 10):
Theo van Gogh's brutal murder, cheering on 9/11, happy when innocent civilians die in Israel ring a bell?

Lets see, Theo van Gogh - theres one Muslim who killed him, not a billion Muslim. Cheering on 9/11 - that happened in VERY small areas, most Muslim people sympathised with America. It was your media portraying us as evil Muslims, as usual. There was one video played by your media showing Muslims celebrating in the streets of Hebron, which was then proved to be actually them celebrating the withdrawal of Israel several years before. Your great media at work. I'm sure there are many people who are happy when they see innocent Muslims dying in Iraq and Palestine.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 10):
happy when innocent civilians die in Israel

You know damn right that it has nothing to do with religion - that is a political conflict, and they are happy because of what Israel does to them. I'm not saying its right, but lets not get into an Israel/Palestine discussion on here.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 10):
You fail to understand that the US invasion of Iraq has given the Iraqi people free elections and a chance at democracy.

And you feel to understand that it had nothing to do with America being kind hearted, and that it cost the Iraqis their entire countries and tens of thousands of innocents. If America was there for democracy, things would have been very different. Why did Bush lie to you then?

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 10):
When was the last time you voted QR LOL?

If I was in Jordan, I would have voted for my MPs, but I am living in Qatar so I can't.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 10):
It is time for Europeans to decide, as Commentary magazine wrote, “Either Islam gets Europeanized, or Europe gets Islamized”.

Great, RJ, you just contradicted yourself in the same post. Islam is a religion, and freedom includes freedom of religion, doesn't it? So why should Islam get "Europeanized"?

Quoting DL021 (Reply 11):
Thank you for responding and showing that you read only the part that you expect to read. You also show the typical double talk one gets from a spokesman for these people who say at the same time "We don't do that....and....It's only a few radicals...nothing to worry about...unless you lower your guard and let them into your country with access to explosives and tanker trucks."

Yes I will say its only a few radicals - your post implied it was more than just a few radicals. A few of our radicals blow up people, a few of your presidents invade countries for no good reason. Same shit, different pile. And why is it double talk exactly..? Also, i'm talking few in comparison to the amount of people who are Muslim; there are more than a billion Muslims, and out of those billion how many radicals?

Quoting DL021 (Reply 11):
by no means convicted all of Islam with this brush, but it is much more than just a few radicals causing all the trouble. There are violence preaching imams and mullahs all over the world, and you cannot compare this religious warlike fervor with anything else in the modern era.

And Islam, as a religion today, is constantly under attack from the West. Many things have pushed these people to the extreme, and I will not sit here and tell you the West has been the cause of it. A big cause is the bad leaders that have we have and have had, and the bad living conditions many Muslims have. But, the West have not made things easy, and thus the hate - they support the leaders who have abused their people, invaded Muslim and Arab countries, and they have not helped in "spreading freedom"

Quoting DL021 (Reply 11):
Moderates in your religion are afraid to speak too loudly for fear of reprisals, and I don't mean egging the car. Wahabists and others teach religious justification for murder and suicide, and this young convert is an example of what I describe.

Wahabists are mostly in the Gulf, and this women is from Somalia. Secondly, what speaking out are you referring to? Huge, and I mean HUGE amounts of Muslims have spoken out against Islamist terrorism - you should have seen the protests here when the bombings happened.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 11):
Can you actually expect me to believe that you honestly believe that there is not a huge problem with your religion in how it is being presented by its leaders to the people?

I never said that - there is a very big problem with our religion and the way it is taught today, I will not deny it, but the problem is not that most Muslims are inclined to go blow themselves up.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 11):
Your friend sounds like many moderate Jewish women I know, perhaps minus the nose job. One question...does she live in the west or back in Pakistan? I think I know the answer.

I'd like QR332 to tell me what would happen to this woman if she moved back to a predominately Muslim country.

Nothing at all. What do you think will happen, please tell me. You think all my female friends and classmates don't go out dressed like that? Many Muslim woman in the Arab world enjoy a drink; go to Beirut, Amman, Dubai, Cairo, etc, etc and you'll see exactly what i'm talking about. What do you think I do when I go to parties, sit there trying to get all the guys to dance with me?

Quoting DL021 (Reply 11):
Oh, please....get past this. Three years ago Islamists were constantly talking about the threat of the zionists and the Crusades as reasons to distrust and hate the west.

I don't agree with Islamists, why are you telling me this? And your telling me every single religious Muslim thinks like that? And plus, how does that change what I said?

Quoting DL021 (Reply 11):
The Iraqis seem to be moving forward. Too bad you won't.

The only thing that is moving forward in Iraq is the death toll.
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
Marco
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RE: Dutch Parliament Member Causing Uproar

Fri Apr 08, 2005 3:26 am

The only thing that is moving forward in Iraq is the death toll

According to your ambassador to Ottawa (Jordanian that is), who gave a speech yesterday at McGill that's not necessarily true  Wink
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jaysit
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RE: Dutch Parliament Member Causing Uproar

Fri Apr 08, 2005 3:38 am

Many women in Islam do have a lot of freedom, but it does not have to come in the form of miniskirts or alcohol.

No, it doesn't.

I know plenty of Muslim women who don't pursue either.

But if one chooses to express one's freedom in such a manner, why should the state forbid it? Nowhere in the Quran is it mandatory to wear a chador/burkha.

But, you think that only radical Muslims are the ones who give death threats because they oppose her views? Many important people recieve death threats because radicals don't agree with them.

True.
Here in the US, Judges are being bullied with death threats by the Christian right. And some of our stupid Republican politicians are justifying their behaviour.
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qr332
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RE: Dutch Parliament Member Causing Uproar

Fri Apr 08, 2005 4:16 am

Quoting Marco (Reply 17):
According to your ambassador to Ottawa (Jordanian that is), who gave a speech yesterday at McGill that's not necessarily true

Marco, Iraq is in a very bad shape right now, and no proper progress in stoping the insurgents has been made - and as long as these terrorists are free to roam Iraq and ruin everything, no proper progress will be made.

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 18):
But if one chooses to express one's freedom in such a manner, why should the state forbid it? Nowhere in the Quran is it mandatory to wear a chador/burkha.

The state does not forbid it, except in Iran and Saudi Arabia. When it comes to alcohol, it is available in most Muslim countries, even if it is not allowed officialy. This goes against Islamic law, and I don't believe that not allowing the sale of alcohol freely is really limiting anybody's freedom; it is a harmful substance and the government can ban it if it wants. As for the hijab, I am 100% against a woman being forced to wear it; the only person in my family (both sides) who wears hijab is my grandmother. I believe it is not compulsary, and that a woman should be able to choose; at the end of the day, each person will be judged by God, and it is up to them what they do with their life.
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
jaysit
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RE: Dutch Parliament Member Causing Uproar

Fri Apr 08, 2005 4:25 am

QR332 - You also live in Jordan, which has always been a more progressive state with respect to women's rights.

Sadly enough, the kind of Islam the West sees is the Saudi kind that is being exported to the rest of the Muslim world in South Asia, Indonesia, Europe, etc.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
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n229nw
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RE: Dutch Parliament Member Causing Uproar

Fri Apr 08, 2005 4:47 am

Well, I guess I'll weigh in here.

1.) Hirsi Ali is brave for fighting for women's rights in a situation that makes her a target. Some of her criticisms make more sense as indictments of the way Islam is practiced and the cultures in which it is practiced that Islam itself, but whether you agree or disagree with her, there are NO EXCUSES for the death threats and such that she is receiving.

2.) On the other hand, there are plenty of ridiculous death threats going around all the time. Look at the number of death threats that, for example, Catholic and Protestant football(soccer) players have received when playing for the "other side's" team in Glasgow. Does that mean that all of Scotland is backwards and living in the dark ages. No. Does the fact that there have been many more physical (and fatal) attacks ON Muslim immigrants in Europe by right-wing idiots than attacks on politicians or others BY Musilims in Europe mean that all Europeans are backward. What about the recent situation in which a Sikh (not Muslim) playwright had to go into hiding in England when her play enraged the local Sikh community and her life was in danger?

3.) There are situations in which harsh criticism of a group's actions from within seems warranted and/or important but also has the potential to be used to fuel other people's prejudices against that group. Hirsi Ali seems to play into Dutch right-wingers' ideas about immigration and minorities that are scary. When her statements and her situation are used to fuel Rjpieces's beliefs about how Muslims are brainwashed fanatics planning to take over the world it is similarly problematic. Or when her claims play into DL021's imaginations about women in all Muslim countries being forced to wear full cover all the time (Saudi Arabia yes, Lebanon and many other places no; and even consider the difference between educated and uneducated groups in a place such as Pakistan or whatever).

This reminds me a bit of a stuation in the other direction: the book The Holocaust Industry by Norman Finkelstein. Finkelstein is Jewish, the child of Holocaust survivors, and he makes very controversial critical claims about the way the events of the Holocaust have been exploited in the recent past to get settlement money and to justify Israel's political actions. As with Hirsi Ali, there are many people who see Finkelstein as brave and outspoken, but the book also made him many strong enemies in the Jewish community--partly because they disagree with Finkelstein's data, claims, and historical interpretation, but I suspect more because his book makes the Jewish community look bad, and they already feel under seige and victimized. I'd say it is fairly parallel to the situation with Hirsi Ali: the important facts and intelligent provocations in Finkelstein's book can be debated in an intelligent way, but they are also liable to fall into the hands of people who already have negative stereotypes about Jews. All you have to do is read reviews of the book on, say, Amazon.com, and you can see how the book can become a tool for anti-semitic propaganda in the same way that Hirsi Ali's statements can become tools for Islamophobic propaganda.

Where do you draw the line(s) in these situations. It gets difficult. Are Finkelstein and Hirsi Ali self-haters who are themselves responsible for stirring up prejudice against their own people? I think not (at least not in Finkelstein's case, since Hirsi Ali left the group she criticizes rather than working to reform it from within). Anyway, I see them both as fairly strong figures for speaking out, whether or not I agree with all of their points or their ways of making those points. But then, on the other side of the coin, I think we must work not to let their statements play into the hands of those outside the groups in question who would tar whole peoples or religions with the same brush.

If one looks at the Muslims in the Netherlands, one sees a group that has fled poverty and lack of education in their home countries, and then encountered resistance to their way of life in their new country. By all means, assert that they must assimilate to a certain point (I agree), but don't ignore the fact that they are also scared, isolated, and sometimes persecuted, and that working toward assimilation must go two ways. Immigrants must be made to feel welcomed and valued, not under constant suspicion. Furthermore, don't blame all of them for the actions of the most radical elements.

[Edited 2005-04-07 22:17:04]
All Glory to the Hypnotoad!
 
LifelinerOne
Posts: 1498
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2003 10:30 pm

RE: Dutch Parliament Member Causing Uproar

Fri Apr 08, 2005 5:07 am

Funny to see how many Dutchies have replied on this topic... And I think I know why; a lot of people think Hirshi Ali talks sh*t and is only out on causing uproar.

Theo van Gogh, Ayaan Hirshi Ali and Geert Wilders are (and were for Theo) some of the most outspoken people in our politics. However, they tend to discriminate and try to play on our sentiments rather our brains. They also tend to tell the same story, over and over again. They also tend to call muslims all kind of names like pigs (and that is the nicest name). They also tend to give muslims all the blaims for what's wrong here.

I can only say, this is bullshit. You can't say all of these things and recall it on your freedom of speech. By calling all this nonsense you hurt people and you cause uproar in our sometimes fragile integrated society. The saying what goes around comes around comes in my mind here.

If you constant bash another, some people will use violence because they feel helpless and ignored. I don't think this is a good thing, but we created our own problems by ignoring them for a long time.

Schoenorama have summed it up very well and get's a spot on my RR list for that! Both Hirshi Ali and Wilders are only full of air and that's it. They just talk and want attention, but they don't come with any (workable or normal) solution for the problems.

Cheers!
Only Those Who Sleep Don't Make Mistakes
 
Logan22L
Posts: 4464
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RE: Dutch Parliament Member Causing Uproar

Fri Apr 08, 2005 6:28 am

I'll confess to not having heard of Hirsi Ali until yesterday. On face value, I read the article, considered the source, and decided that she seemed brave, and I admired her decision. I still do, but learning more and more by reading all of the posts here, I have to check myself. There are always at least two sides to a story. I just read N229NW's excellent post (#21) and then LifelinerOne's just below it. It's true, not living in the Netherlands, how can I develop a truly objective view on this?

She may be full of hot air and not full of solutions. But she still made a choice knowing it could be risky for her. I wish more Dutch members would chime in with their thoughts, since they have a unique perspective.

Logan
"The deeper you go, the higher you fly. The higher you fly, the deeper you go."
 
qr332
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Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 11:16 pm

RE: Dutch Parliament Member Causing Uproar

Fri Apr 08, 2005 6:45 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 20):
QR332 - You also live in Jordan, which has always been a more progressive state with respect to women's rights.

Qatar also has excellent women's rights, and is constantly improving on them. I have great respect for the Emir and how far he's brought Qatar; ten years ago, when we first came here, it was a different country from today. The Emir changed that in many respects.

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 20):
Sadly enough, the kind of Islam the West sees is the Saudi kind that is being exported to the rest of the Muslim world in South Asia, Indonesia, Europe, etc.

Sad but true, although the most radical islamists seem to be the ones living abroad, who are trying to maintain the values they grew up with in foreign countries, and the Muslims from Saudi & East Asia (i.e. Pakistan, etc).

Quoting Logan22L (Reply 23):
I'll confess to not having heard of Hirsi Ali until yesterday.

Same here.
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
dl021
Posts: 10836
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 12:04 pm

RE: Dutch Parliament Member Causing Uproar

Fri Apr 08, 2005 6:49 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 15):
The American right and Islamo-fascists have far more in common (bigotry, racism, hatred of gays, promulgation of a theocratic state, anti-birth control), than the American right has in common with the socially progressive and tolerant Dutch.

The American right is much more concerned with the right to live free and determine ones own condition peacably than any Islamo-fascist and you ought to consider those words more carefully instead of kneejerk insulting people. Our most hardline rightwing groups (within the mainstream, not the Nazis etc) could never approach what you seem to say here.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
LFutia
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RE: Dutch Parliament Member Causing Uproar

Fri Apr 08, 2005 6:51 am

Many people are upset with her for making the film 'Submissions'.. Many Muslim Dutch Immigrants found it extremely wrong. I have seen submissions online...

Then you have Geert Wilders... I'm not going into discussion with him... but his hairstyle is totally different!

I can say is that Wilders and Ayaan Hersi Ali... all they want is their 15 minutes of fame on NOS Journaal or NOVA...
Leo/ORD -- Groetjes uit de VS! -- Heeft u laatst nog met KLM gevlogen?
 
Schoenorama
Posts: 2305
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 5:15 am

RE: Dutch Parliament Member Causing Uproar

Fri Apr 08, 2005 9:27 am

Quoting N229NW (Reply 21):
On the other hand, there are plenty of ridiculous death threats going around all the time.

Exactly. After the murder of Dutch politician Pim Fortuyn, it was mainly the left-leaning policitians in Holland who received the death-threats and these did not come from Muslims.

Quoting N229NW (Reply 21):
Hirsi Ali seems to play into Dutch right-wingers' ideas about immigration and minorities that are scary. When her statements and her situation are used to fuel Rjpieces's beliefs about how Muslims are brainwashed fanatics...

That is exactly what she does. Unfortunately, there are many Rjpieces in the Netherlands. Look at the aforementioned Pim Fortuyn and his party before he was murdered. Now Fortuyn wasn't your typical ultra-rightwinger as many of his views and opinions were more socialistic then rightwing, but the vast majority that supported him didn't even know nor want to know his views on Social Security or Defense; they liked him because of what he openly dared to say about immigrants in general and Muslim immigrants in particular! In that regard it was really ironic that the Dutch ultra-rightwingers, who not so long ago also bashed the gay community, would support an openly gay politician just because they liked his ideas about immigration.

Quoting N229NW (Reply 21):
Finkelstein is Jewish, the child of Holocaust survivors, and he makes very controversial critical claims about the way the events of the Holocaust have been exploited in the recent past to get settlement money and to justify Israel's political actions. As with Hirsi Ali, there are many people who see Finkelstein as brave and outspoken, but the book also made him many strong enemies in the Jewish community--partly because they disagree with Finkelstein's data, claims, and historical interpretation, but I suspect more because his book makes the Jewish community look bad, and they already feel under seige and victimized. I'd say it is fairly parallel to the situation with Hirsi Al

Hirsi Ali's actual party (VVD) isn't too happy with her continous media appearances. Her outspoken opinions and views on items on occasions clearly go (far) beyond the Party Line. Sometimes it even looks like Hirsi Ali directly dictates the official party line, something with which others within her party aren't too happy about.

Quoting N229NW (Reply 21):
Immigrants must be made to feel welcomed and valued, not under constant suspicion. Furthermore, don't blame all of them for the actions of the most radical elements.

Absolutely! The majority of Muslim immigrants in the Netherlands do not cause problems. They are not Muslim fanatics who believe Dutch women shouldn't wear mini-skirts and should stay at home. The majority has in fact developed a European variant of their Muslim religion which is (much) more appropiate for the times and place we and they are living in now. Unfortunately, you never read that in the media nor will Rjpieces start a topic about it. And I am afraid that we'll neither read a topic by Rjpieces about Muslim schools and mosques being set on fire by those to whom Hirsi Ali's statements appeal the most.

Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 22):
Schoenorama have summed it up very well and get's a spot on my RR list for that!

You won't be Jan Marijnissen, by any chance??  Smile

Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 22):
They just talk and want attention, but they don't come with any (workable or normal) solution for the problems.

Like her proposal to screen Muslims during their job interviews on their ideology while she acknowledges such a screening would be against the anti-discriminatory laws in the Netherlands. One wonders why the heck she'd make the proposal in the first place when she already knows it would be against the existing laws.

Quoting Logan22L (Reply 23):
I wish more Dutch members would chime in with their thoughts, since they have a unique perspective.

Don't get fooled to easily by the little flag besides my name  Wink ; I was born and raised in the Netherlands but moved some 20 years ago. I still keep up with Dutch news via satellite TV though!
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
 
LifelinerOne
Posts: 1498
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RE: Dutch Parliament Member Causing Uproar

Sat Apr 09, 2005 2:00 am

Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 27):
You won't be Jan Marijnissen, by any chance?? Smile

No, I'm defenitely not! I'm just glad that there's someone out there who can look beyond those peoples stupid ideas!

Cheers!
Only Those Who Sleep Don't Make Mistakes
 
mauriceb
Posts: 2150
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 2:50 am

RE: Dutch Parliament Member Causing Uproar

Sat Apr 09, 2005 2:15 am

funny that a lot of foreign people know here.. especially the americans......

to get an expresion about how she looks, i will post a photo


 
LifelinerOne
Posts: 1498
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2003 10:30 pm

RE: Dutch Parliament Member Causing Uproar

Sat Apr 09, 2005 4:46 am

Quoting MauriceB (Reply 29):
i will post a photo

My eyes, my eyes!!!  covereyes 
Only Those Who Sleep Don't Make Mistakes
 
NoUFO
Posts: 7397
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 7:40 am

RE: Dutch Parliament Member Causing Uproar

Sat Apr 09, 2005 6:25 am

Schoenorama,

While I do agree with a number of what you have said, I have the strong impression you consider Hirsi Ali's provocations only an end in itself or a way to attract masses. If this were the case, she would indeed be the Ann Coulter of Dutch politics.
But her provocing nature still seem to merely be a means to an end. Furthermore, she did hide from cameras, and it is audacious to assume, it was her personal vanity that pulled her back into the spotlights.

You make her move towards VVD (are they really right-wing or just center-right?) sound like a reprehensible decision. But no matter
how little you may have in common with the VVD - politicians changing sides within democratic parties, no matter which way, can also be seen as a symbol of a well working democracy and lack of dogmata.

And as if it wasn't worse enough that sensible themes like immigration and integration are often at the mercy of the political opportunists, you had to put her right next to those responsible for the attacks on mosques and Muslim kindergartens on fire.
But still, her main theme, as far as I see it, remains to be woman rights (an aspect you have forgotten to mention) and this is exactly where I fully agree with her. Woman rights are more important than a certain interpretation of a holy book and even more important than an entire religion. In my opinion, religion has to adjust with human rights, not the other way around.

She may really fail to provide solutions, but at the same time she seems convinced that there won't be any solution as long as there's no Muslim Voltaire and no Muslim enlightenment. In other words: It's up to Muslims to provide a solution to adjust the belief of their radical minority with human rights and the 21st century.

Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 27):
Absolutely! The majority of Muslim immigrants in the Netherlands do not cause problems. They are not Muslim fanatics who believe Dutch women shouldn't wear mini-skirts and should stay at home.

This is exactly what Hirsi Ali said when she returned from the U.S.
I support the right to arm bears
 
MD-90
Posts: 7835
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2000 12:45 pm

RE: Dutch Parliament Member Causing Uproar

Sat Apr 09, 2005 7:06 am

Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 30):

My eyes, my eyes!!! covereyes

I think she's quite good looking in that picture.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 11):
Well, if a muslim nation would invade a neighbor and install a free democracy then I would probable be all for it.

That statement doesn't surprise me in the least, coming from you. You're a shining example of modern Republicanism.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 25):
The American right is much more concerned with the right to live free and determine ones own condition peacably

Quite right, except you're describing American libertarians, not modern conservatives.
 
Schoenorama
Posts: 2305
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 5:15 am

RE: Dutch Parliament Member Causing Uproar

Sat Apr 09, 2005 9:51 am

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 31):
But her provocing nature still seem to merely be a means to an end. Furthermore, she did hide from cameras, and it is audacious to assume, it was her personal vanity that pulled her back into the spotlights.

I wasn't suggesting it is her personal vanity alone which makes her say the things she does. On one hand, she is trying to get certain items into the spotlight but she is also pushing the official party line over and over again. In this regard, it is remarkable that her party (the VVD) has shown on numerous occasions that it isn't too keen to adopt whatever she says straight away.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 31):
You make her move towards VVD (are they really right-wing or just center-right?) sound like a reprehensible decision.

I'd say it's centre-right. But that exactly is the issue as most of Hirsi Ali's opinions and ideas really are much more to the right, perhaps even ultra-right.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 31):
But no matter how little you may have in common with the VVD - politicians changing sides within democratic parties, no matter which way, can also be seen as a symbol of a well working democracy and lack of dogmata.

I don't have a problem with people changing sides within a party. The problem starts when people make a radical change of party affiliation as happened with Hirsi Ali. She went from the left-leaning PVDA (labour) all the way to the right to the VVD. And the only reason why she changed party was because of the substantial differences between Hirsi Ali's opinions and the PVDA party line on the integration of foreign women into Dutch society. And now that she has found a party more in accordance with her opinions on this issue, she's making statements which even go beyond the VVD party-line! It wouldn't supprise me at all if she'd leave the VVD and join her 'friend' Geert Wilders when he officially presents his new ultra-rightwing party.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 31):
And as if it wasn't worse enough that sensible themes like immigration and integration are often at the mercy of the political opportunists, you had to put her right next to those responsible for the attacks on mosques and Muslim kindergartens on fire.

I said that she, as a politician, has a responsability towards society and simply cannot make wild statements (like when she said all Muslims should be screened on their ideology when doing a job interview), especially when the number of extremist incidents (from either side) has increased over the past years.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 31):
But still, her main theme, as far as I see it, remains to be woman rights (an aspect you have forgotten to mention) and this is exactly where I fully agree with her. Woman rights are more important than a certain interpretation of a holy book and even more important than an entire religion. In my opinion, religion has to adjust with human rights, not the other way around.

Honestly, I really don't know anymore what her main theme is. I get the impression Hirsi Ali is mixing things up quite a bit. She continuously focuses on Muslim Education as if it were the root of all integration-failures in Holland and that is nonsense. Islam, like so many other religions, has many 'branches', one much more liberal than the other. Any Muslim School in the Netherlands, like all other schools, are controlled by the educational authorities and must teach their students in accordance with the Dutch society they live in.

Ms Hirsi Ali really goes quite far when she indicates that Muslim schools are doing far worse than 'normal' schools in Holland. Although the statement is right, the cause of the problem isn't because of the religious background of those schools, but rather a whole array of different integration-related items, ie parents that don't speak Dutch and have very little or no education themselves, etc.

Basically, what she does over and over again is blame Religion for the failure of integration in the Netherlands. Fortunately, there's a thing called Freedom of Religion. The Dutch society in general, especially afer WWII, isn't too eager to undermine such a fundamental right.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 31):
In other words: It's up to Muslims to provide a solution to adjust the belief of their radical minority with human rights and the 21st century.

This is exactly the problem the normal Muslim community in Holland is facing right now. One can ask if it is really fair to ask such a thing from the Muslim majority which doesn't cause problems and which has integrated. With that logic, it should be up to the Christians in Holland to address the minor but disturbing problem of various Christian Groups which believe women shouldn't work at all, and still maintain other ridiculous ideas more appropiate 2 centuries ago. (Until some 5 years ago, one of such groups even had their political representation in Dutch Parliament, the GPV, which did not allow women as members of their party).

I don't think it is fair to demand such a thing from the normal Muslim community, apart from the fact that I don't believe it will enhance further integration into society. The only bond their seems to exists between normal Muslims which don't cause problems and those that do, is their religion. If we like it or not, both groups form part of Dutch society and it is therefor up to Dutch society as a whole to find a solution, and we shouldn't leave it up to their religious counterparts alone. Hirsi Ali pretends to 'punish' an entire community for the wrongdoings of a handfull, whether the issue is Integration, Education or Women Rights.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 31):
This is exactly what Hirsi Ali said when she returned from the U.S.


Yet she wants all Muslims screened on their ideology. I am afraid Hirsi Ali has not yet fully intergrated herself into Dutch Society. After WWII, the Dutch in general are extremely wary of any kind of governmental measure to control the beliefs and principals of normal and law-abiding citizens.
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
 
Marco
Posts: 4005
Joined: Sun Jul 09, 2000 3:41 pm

RE: Dutch Parliament Member Causing Uproar

Sat Apr 09, 2005 4:21 pm

Lebanon, a predominantly Muslim country

Are you trying to stir up something with this statement? Lebanon is not a predominately Muslim country. In fact it is more of a Christian country, however due to the discrete ethnic cleansing that the Middle East is undergoing, YES the Christians are decreasing (as well as the Berbers and Nubians/Copts in Northern Africa, the Assyrians in Iraq, etc...)
Proud to be an Assyrian!
 
qr332
Posts: 2592
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 11:16 pm

RE: Dutch Parliament Member Causing Uproar

Sat Apr 09, 2005 4:52 pm

Quoting Marco (Reply 34):
Are you trying to stir up something with this statement? Lebanon is not a predominately Muslim country. In fact it is more of a Christian country, however due to the discrete ethnic cleansing that the Middle East is undergoing, YES the Christians are decreasing (as well as the Berbers and Nubians/Copts in Northern Africa, the Assyrians in Iraq, etc...)

Lebanon is not a predominantly Muslim country? What rock have you been living under? What do you think the reason that the civil war started? Also, discrete ethnic cleansing? Of Christians? LOOL! And by Copts i'm assuming you mean the Coptics of Egypt - my best friend is a Coptic Egyptian and we've talked about this, the Coptic community in Egypt is alive and well with no "ethnic cleansing". I don't know anything about the Assyrians, Nubians and Berbers though.

Muslim 59.7% (Shi'a, Sunni, Druze, Isma'ilite, Alawite or Nusayri), Christian 39% (Maronite Catholic, Melkite Catholic, Armenian Orthodox, Syrian Catholic, Armenian Catholic, Roman Catholic, Protestant), other 1.3%
note: seventeen religious sects recognized


http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/print/le.html

60 to 39 - hmmmm, that doesn't sound like a majority now, does it?  Yeah sure
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
Marco
Posts: 4005
Joined: Sun Jul 09, 2000 3:41 pm

RE: Dutch Parliament Member Causing Uproar

Sat Apr 09, 2005 5:10 pm

Lebanon is not a predominantly Muslim country? What rock have you been living under? What do you think the reason that the civil war started?

The civil war is too complicated to start discussing it in this forum. If you count the Lebanese living outside of Lebanon, there are more Christians than Muslims.

Also, discrete ethnic cleansing? Of Christians? LOOL!

LOL? So your only reply to the hardships that Christians and other minorities have gone thorugh in the Middle East is a "LOL"?

And by Copts i'm assuming you mean the Coptics of Egypt - my best friend is a Coptic Egyptian and we've talked about this, the Coptic community in Egypt is alive and well with no "ethnic cleansing".

Oh please, the Copts can't even paint their church without governmental regulation.  Yeah sure

http://www.copts.net

I don't know anything about the Assyrians, Nubians and Berbers though.

Educate yourself then. Most of my Arab friends don't even know what they are either. The Middle East is full of different cultures and languages which are being wiped out through Islamicization/Arabization.
Proud to be an Assyrian!
 
qr332
Posts: 2592
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 11:16 pm

RE: Dutch Parliament Member Causing Uproar

Sat Apr 09, 2005 5:26 pm

Quoting Marco (Reply 36):
The civil war is too complicated to start discussing it in this forum. If you count the Lebanese living outside of Lebanon, there are more Christians than Muslims.

True, but a main reason was that there was more power for the Christians than the Muslims while there were more Muslims than Christians.

Quoting Marco (Reply 36):
LOL? So your only reply to the hardships that Christians and other minorities have gone thorugh in the Middle East is a "LOL"?

The "LOOL" was meant for the bullshit you believe. We have many Christian Arab family friends - NONE of them are being persecuted or going through your so called hardships.

Quoting Marco (Reply 36):
Oh please, the Copts can't even paint their church without governmental regulation.

So how is that ethinc cleansing? Also, Hosni Mubarak is a bastard and his government is not exactly the most loved in the Arab World - The Coptic church of Egypt does face hardships, but not ethnic cleansing, and most of the problems they have faced have been from radical Muslims.

Quoting Marco (Reply 36):
Educate yourself then. Most of my Arab friends don't even know what they are either. The Middle East is full of different cultures and languages which are being wiped out through Islamicization/Arabization.

I never said I don't know what they are, I said I don't know anything about what is going on with them. Big difference.
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
N1120A
Posts: 26468
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Dutch Parliament Member Causing Uproar

Sat Apr 09, 2005 5:59 pm

Quoting RJpieces (Thread starter):
The punishment for such apostasy is, according to strict interpretations of Islam, death.

Except that actual, strict interpretations of Islam say no such thing. It is only the "unfundamentalists" who make this claim. Oh, and people like you and others who have insane agendas

Quoting Logan22L (Reply 7):
She chose to investigate the ins and outs of Islam and decided she didn't care for some of those aspects; in fact she cares enough to say she is no longer of the Muslim faith.

While I contend subscribing to any religious philosophy is inauthentic, I do know a lot about theology. In that, I know that the "ins and outs" of Islam are actually some of the most liberal in the world with the lifestyle of people. It is only through the hegemony of certain groups that Islam has the "ins and outs" you are talking about.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 10):
happy when innocent civilians die in Israel ring a bell?

As opposed to innocent civilians in Gaza, West Bank, Iraq and possibly soon my worst nightmare, Iran

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 10):
You fail to understand that the US invasion of Iraq has given the Iraqi people free elections and a chance at democracy.

Right, really free. You fail to understand that the US invasion of Iraq was done under false pretenses, has brought the US economy to the brink of collapse and was not done for any such altruistic purpose

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 10):
When was the last time you voted QR LOL?

Well, they have a spotty record of counting my votes in the US.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 13):
Natan Sharansky from Israel comes to mind too.

Except that Natan Sharansky is such a racist lunatic that he even makes Ann Coulter blush

Quoting DL021 (Reply 25):
The American right is much more concerned with the right to live free and determine ones own condition peacably than any Islamo-fascist and you ought to consider those words more carefully instead of kneejerk insulting people.

Except that they care about no such thing. They break international, federal and state law in order to extend the reach of their hegemonic ideals, while trampling all over the freedoms we as Americans hold so dear

Quoting DL021 (Reply 25):
Our most hardline rightwing groups (within the mainstream, not the Nazis etc) could never approach what you seem to say here.

They do all the time. Look at the people who came to the aid of Eric Rudolph.

Quoting Marco (Reply 34):
Are you trying to stir up something with this statement? Lebanon is not a predominately Muslim country. In fact it is more of a Christian country,

No, it is predominantly Moslem. For years, in fact, the Moslems were kept from taking their rightful majority in the representative government because of Christian control.

Quoting Marco (Reply 36):
So your only reply to the hardships that Christians and other minorities have gone thorugh in the Middle East is a "LOL"?

Wait, first they were the majority then the minority? Pick. BTW, Christians, Jews and others are welcomed in basically every country in the middle east.

Quoting Marco (Reply 36):
Most of my Arab friends don't even know what they are either.

Um, might have something to do with the media constantly telling them that they are not what they actually are, Semites.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
OO-VEG
Posts: 1217
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2000 5:31 pm

RE: Dutch Parliament Member Causing Uproar

Sat Apr 09, 2005 6:51 pm

I am amazed so many foreigners are into this debate. And hardly any Dutch people. In fact I don't even recall the restaurant incident , but I might have been abroad at that time.

Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 22):
Theo van Gogh, Ayaan Hirshi Ali and Geert Wilders are (and were for Theo) some of the most outspoken people in our politics. However, they tend to discriminate and try to play on our sentiments rather our brains.

Theo van Gogh is outspoken but not in politics. An outspoken politician (though he never made it to the elections) was Pim Fortuyn. Ayaan Hirshi Ali & Geert Wilders are still active and indeed outspoken.

You can say it's a bad thing, and I am completely against the plans of Geert Wilders, but a guy like him manages one things. That we open our eyes and start thinking about politics and how we see our country in the future.

Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 33):
Christian Groups which believe women shouldn't work at all, and still maintain other ridiculous ideas more appropiate 2 centuries ago. (Until some 5 years ago, one of such groups even had their political representation in Dutch Parliament, the GPV, which did not allow women as members of their party).

Until some 5 years ago? Please let me quote a piece of the programm of the SGP (Social Reformed Party), currently represented.

Quote:
Artikel 7
Gods Woord leert dat man en vrouw krachtens de scheppingsorde een eigen specifieke, van elkaar onderscheiden roeping en plaats hebben ontvangen. In deze orde is de man het hoofd van de vrouw.
Maatregelen ter erkenning van de gelijkwaardigheid van mannen en vrouwen worden positief beoordeeld. Elk emancipatiestreven dat de van God gegeven roeping en plaats van mannen en vrouwen miskent, is revolutionair en moet krachtig worden bestreden.
Translation: Gods word teaches us that man and women, accordingly the order of creation, both have their own specific, separated distinctions and missions. In this order the man stands above the woman.
Actions to acknowledge equality of men and female are judged positively. All means of emancipation that does not comply to Gods given misisons and placement of man and women are revolutionary and must be fight against with.


Artikel 10
De opvatting van het vrouwenkiesrecht voortkomend uit een revolutionair emancipatiestreven, strijdt met de roeping van de vrouw. Dat laatste geldt ook voor het zitting nemen van de vrouw in politieke organen, zowel vertegenwoordigende als bestuurlijke.
De vrouw zij in haar eigen consciëntie overtuigd of zij haar stem kan uitbrengen met inachtneming van de haar door God gegeven plaats.
Translated: Meanings on voting rights for women, as a result of the revolutionary will for emancipation, are against the mission of a woman. That also counts for the seating of women in political departments, both representative and governmentative.
The woman is in her own conciousness aware if she can vote, thinking of Gods givven placement.

Source:http://www.sgp.nl/Media/download/502/BEGINSEL.PRO.doc (please notice my translation may not match 100% with the Dutch version).

You might think this is a conservative muslim party (no offence), but no.. this is an all Dutch Christian Party. The reason I show you these 2 quotations are simply to point out that many Christians don not even integrate in the society as we know it present day and that even in the parliament people are seated with such opinions.
 
qr332
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RE: Dutch Parliament Member Causing Uproar

Sat Apr 09, 2005 7:57 pm

I can't edit my post anymore, Marco, but I forgot to add that if you also include the Muslim Lebanese leaving outside Lebanon as well, you willl find more Muslims than Christians. There are many Lebanese Muslims living in the Gulf especially.
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
LifelinerOne
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RE: Dutch Parliament Member Causing Uproar

Sat Apr 09, 2005 9:01 pm

Quoting OO-VEG (Reply 39):
You can say it's a bad thing, and I am completely against the plans of Geert Wilders, but a guy like him manages one things. That we open our eyes and start thinking about politics and how we see our country in the future.

No he's not. He's only making a lot of people think on how stupid some politicians are, including him.

Cheers!
Only Those Who Sleep Don't Make Mistakes
 
Marco
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RE: Dutch Parliament Member Causing Uproar

Sun Apr 10, 2005 2:17 am

No, it is predominantly Moslem. For years, in fact, the Moslems were kept from taking their rightful majority in the representative government because of Christian control.

Lebanon has been a historically Christian country. Unfortunately that bothers the fanatics who want to islamisize the whole Middle East (cough Saudi cough).

Wait, first they were the majority then the minority?

In the middle east as a whole, it's not that hard to read, is it? I'm not just talking about Lebanon. And that's the agenda to slowly wipe out all other minorities. The Christian minorities are decreasing. The Jews are almost gone apart from a few tribes in Yemen (who still pay the ridiculous Jizya tax), and a families scattered throughout Syria, Egypt, etc...

Pick. BTW, Christians, Jews and others are welcomed in basically every country in the middle east.

They're allowed, but I don't know about "welcomed". Anyway since you're half Iranian (If I'm not mistaken), let's exmaine your country shall we? Where are the Bahai's? Jews? What about the status of the Christians in Iran? They're not even allowed to serve as police...

Quoting Marco (Reply 36):
Most of my Arab friends don't even know what they are either.

Um, might have something to do with the media constantly telling them that they are not what they actually are, Semites.


I don't quite get what you're trying to say here...
Proud to be an Assyrian!
 
qr332
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Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 11:16 pm

RE: Dutch Parliament Member Causing Uproar

Sun Apr 10, 2005 2:52 am

Quoting Marco (Reply 42):
Lebanon has been a historically Christian country. Unfortunately that bothers the fanatics who want to islamisize the whole Middle East (cough Saudi cough).

Historically, it has been a country with two major religons: Islam and Christianity.

Quoting Marco (Reply 42):
In the middle east as a whole, it's not that hard to read, is it? I'm not just talking about Lebanon. And that's the agenda to slowly wipe out all other minorities. The Christian minorities are decreasing. The Jews are almost gone apart from a few tribes in Yemen (who still pay the ridiculous Jizya tax), and a families scattered throughout Syria, Egypt, etc...

Why is it that you are so bitter Marco? The Christian minorities are decreasing because there is a much higher number of Muslims, and there are still Jews, although in small numbers, scattered around the Middle East. Please tell me what the leaders of the different countries have to gain from seeing all the minoroties in the Mideast wiped out?

Quoting Marco (Reply 42):
They're allowed, but I don't know about "welcomed". Anyway since you're half Iranian (If I'm not mistaken), let's exmaine your country shall we? Where are the Bahai's? Jews? What about the status of the Christians in Iran? They're not even allowed to serve as police...

Will you make your damned mind up? One second they're allowed, one second we're wiping them out, one second we're ethnically cleansing them. All my Arab Christian friends, and yes, there are many of them, have no problems with "ethnic cleansing" or being "wiped out". They are living with equal rights to the Muslims and with no problems, and this applies to my Christian Lebanese, Jordanian, Egyptian, and Syrian friends. And they are just as welcomed as Muslims are.

Are you an Assyrian from what is Iraq or Syria today? If your family has suffered something from one of the two countries, which it sure as hell seems like from what you are saying, then you are talking about the two worse regimes to come accross the Middle East and it is unfair to paint the entire Middle East with the same brush.
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
Marco
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RE: Dutch Parliament Member Causing Uproar

Sun Apr 10, 2005 4:12 am

Why is it that you are so bitter Marco? The Christian minorities are decreasing because there is a much higher number of Muslims, and there are still Jews, although in small numbers, scattered around the Middle East. Please tell me what the leaders of the different countries have to gain from seeing all the minoroties in the Mideast wiped out?

Why would they be decreasing, even if they're a higher number of Muslims? What kind of logic is that?

And by the way my mind has been made up. The Arab world is an intolerant place, where value is placed more on race, religion, whether you're a virgin or not, etc ... rather on the individual. And by the way I was born there and lived in many countries throughout the Middle East.
Proud to be an Assyrian!
 
qr332
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RE: Dutch Parliament Member Causing Uproar

Sun Apr 10, 2005 4:29 am

Quoting Marco (Reply 44):
Why would they be decreasing, even if they're a higher number of Muslims? What kind of logic is that?

Because Muslims reproduce more, so the ratio of Muslims to Christians will obviously decrease and the percentage of Christians will also decrease. I was referring to percentages, not numbers.

Quoting Marco (Reply 44):
And by the way my mind has been made up. The Arab world is an intolerant place, where value is placed more on race, religion, whether you're a virgin or not, etc ... rather on the individual. And by the way I was born there and lived in many countries throughout the Middle East.

Believe what you want, but you haven't answered my question - why are you so bitter?
"The greatest threat to knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge."
 
MD-90
Posts: 7835
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RE: Dutch Parliament Member Causing Uproar

Sun Apr 10, 2005 5:57 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 38):
BTW, Christians, Jews and others are welcomed in basically every country in the middle east.

Too bad that Christians and Jews often don't have the same rights that Muslims have in far too many middle eastern nations.



Marco has not been in the least way bitter in this thread, QR332
 
OO-VEG
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RE: Dutch Parliament Member Causing Uproar

Sun Apr 10, 2005 11:10 pm

Time magazine has put Ayaan Hirshi Ali on the list of most influential people in the world. She is listed in the category of Leaders & Revolutionaries.
 
ContnlEliteCMH
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RE: Dutch Parliament Member Causing Uproar

Sun Apr 10, 2005 11:45 pm

Quoting Logan22L (Reply 7):
have far more respect for someone who researches something and makes a concious decision to change than I do for someone who never questions things into which they were born and simply acts them out.

Are you suggesting that an adherent to a religion in which they were raised has not also gone through research, soul-searching, and choice?

I think we should be careful, very careful. It is intellectually dishonest to praise somebody for research and conscious choice only when the choice is change. It is possible for people to do the same research and choosing, even when the choice is to continue down the path. Change is not the only true evidence of choice.
Christianity. Islam. Hinduism. Anthropogenic Global Warming. All are matters of faith!
 
ContnlEliteCMH
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RE: Dutch Parliament Member Causing Uproar

Sun Apr 10, 2005 11:58 pm

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 15):
In my opinion, one religion is as good or as bad as the next. If the West had not gone through the age of scientific rationalism where religion and civil life were separated, we'd be living under a Christian Taliban, who as we all know can be just as vicious as any maniacal Mullah.

Yes, but we DID go through that age. This is like saying "If Southwest hadn't hedged their fuel, they'd be losing money." It's an interesting academic discussion, but that's all it is. Southwest hedged their fuel and continues to make money. Western Christianity went through an elightenment and embraces secular government.

I know you find this hard to believe, but this conservative Christian would fight tooth-and-nail to keep the United States government from ever passing a law to create an official state religion. To do so would severely degrade the rule of law, because freedom of religion (among others) has virtue of its own accord. People must be free to choose, whether their choice is mine or not.

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 15):
Its quite interesting to see the American right suddenly jump on the bandwagon defending Dutch social liberalism - but only because of their disdain and contempt for Islamo-fascists. The American right and Islamo-fascists have far more in common (bigotry, racism, hatred of gays, promulgation of a theocratic state, anti-birth control), than the American right has in common with the socially progressive and tolerant Dutch.

Sure. With this paragraph you went from reasoner to propagandist. Once again, my friends on the left illustrate their tendency to make outlandish accusations devoid of truth and that disagreement is proof of "something wrong" with your opponents.
Christianity. Islam. Hinduism. Anthropogenic Global Warming. All are matters of faith!

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