Sabena332
Topic Author
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Mac System Vs. Windows

Fri Apr 08, 2005 9:56 am

Hello all,

Yes, yet another thread from me .

At the moment I am close to buy a new notebook and I really consider an Apple iBook (14").

Many people told me (here on the forums and when I talked personally to friends/colleagues/etc.) that Mac's are far better than regular (Window's based) computers.

At the moment I am sick of the following:

In the last hour I got 3 pop ups like:

(quick translation)

  • "Media Player caused an error in unknown, unknown must be shut down, you want to send a report"


  • "Unknown caused an error in WinMx, WinMx must be shut down"


  • WordPad caused an error......


  • Furthermore, when I clicked on more than four or five PDF documents today (and in the past), my PC shut down itself.

    Sorry, but I am sick of this, it happens not the first time and it is annoying!

    Is the Apple system better and more stable? If yes, I will really consider to buy an Apple iBook!

    Another question, are Apple notebooks as quiet as Intel Centrino notebooks or are they as annoying as Pentium IV Mobils or Celeron's? One member already told me that they are very quiet but I want to hear a few more opinions from Mac & other users.

    Are Macs compatible to everything? Is Safari working like Internet Explorer here on the forums and on all other internet sites?

    Anything what is different with a Mac?

    Thanks for your replies/tips!

    Patrick

    Edit: Will I get MS Word/Office for free when I buy a Mac?

    [Edited 2005-04-08 03:06:55]
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    AeroWesty
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    RE: Mac System Vs. Windows

    Fri Apr 08, 2005 10:10 am

    Have you ever stopped by this site?

    http://www.apple.com/switch/
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    Sabena332
    Topic Author
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    RE: Mac System Vs. Windows

    Fri Apr 08, 2005 10:15 am

    Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 1):
    Have you ever stopped by this site?

    http://www.apple.com/switch/

    No, because I usually prefer the Apple websites in German language. Thanks a lot for this link, I will read it now!

    Any personal experience from people who prefer Apple/regular PC's?

    Patrick
    NZ1's mother is a disgusting crack-whore and his father is a worthless alcoholic!
     
    AeroWesty
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    RE: Mac System Vs. Windows

    Fri Apr 08, 2005 10:23 am

    Quoting Sabena332 (Reply 2):
    Any personal experience from people who prefer Apple/regular PC's?

    Even though I own 3 Macs and a Dell, I'm hard pressed to tell you specific reasons why one is better than another, because I really can't find anything useful to do with my Dell. It sits there and sends/receives faxes, and I stuck an extra hard drive in it to host my shared internal iTunes music files and process video files. Yes, Macs are supposed to be "better" doing a/v work than a Winbox, but in my experience, an idle Winbox doing nothing other than gnawing on video bits, then transferring it across my network to do the creative part, works out better for me, since it keeps the CPUs in the Macs freed up.

    It really all boils down to what you want to do with your computer. Any advice offered without knowing what that is is just stabbing in the dark.
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    hawaiian717
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    RE: Mac System Vs. Windows

    Fri Apr 08, 2005 10:34 am

    Quoting Sabena332 (Thread starter):
    Is the Apple system better and more stable?

    Definitely more stable. Better is a more subjective issue, but count me among those who would say "Yes."

    The Safari browser is pretty good, though for a few reasons, I prefer Mozilla Firefox, which works virtually the same as its Windows counterpart. It's extremely rare that I run into a web site that doesn't work properly with Firefox.

    I don't have much to compare it to noise-wise, but I find my 2001-era iBook to be sufficiently quiet. It's certainly much lighter and smaller than many PC notebooks I've seen (such as the Dell Inspiron line; I'm more impressed with their Latitude series in the size department).

    You will not get Office for free. You'll get a "Test Drive" version, along with AppleWorks, an integrated suite that is roughly comparable to Microsoft Works. It handles Word files, but if you'll have to deal with them on a regular basis, you'll probably be happier if you just purchase Microsoft Office outright.

    Like AeroWesty said, the more we know about the kinds of things you do (or want to do) with your computer, the more advice we can offer.

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    MD11Engineer
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    RE: Mac System Vs. Windows

    Fri Apr 08, 2005 10:36 am

    Waiting for Klaus to show up! Big grin

    Jan
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    UAL747
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    RE: Mac System Vs. Windows

    Fri Apr 08, 2005 10:46 am

    I just bought an Apple....let's just say, "Once you go Mac, you never go bac!"

    UAL
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    174thfwff
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    RE: Mac System Vs. Windows

    Fri Apr 08, 2005 10:58 am

    Listen,
    You don't want the iBook 14''. The resolution is the same for the 12'' and 14'', and that's not a good thing. Look at the 12'' iBook, 12'' Powerbook, but the 14'' iBook is a waste because of the screen.
    -JP
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    jfkaua
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    RE: Mac System Vs. Windows

    Fri Apr 08, 2005 11:27 am

    Quoting Sabena332 (Thread starter):

    # "Unknown caused an error in WinMx, WinMx must be shut down"

    Windows basically is not immune to the bad apple theory. There are so many more programs built for windows that your going to have some bad apples somewhere. Now one could say you wouldn't get this error on an apple... true.. but only because you cant run winmx on an apple  Smile . If your going to use your pc to listen to music check your email and web surf, sure get an apple. If you want more flexability and be in control more get a pc... thats what it boils down to...

    With the mac OS its greatest strength, its ease of use, is also its greatest weakness in that it doesnt have as much versability.

    I have been running the same 3 ghz P4 system I got for a total of 800 bucks for over a year and it is still in tip top shape. I bought a top of the line tower for 800 bucks when you could barely buy the cheapest mac for that. I have maintained the OS well and it still has amazing speed.

    Once a week ill take 15 or 20 mins out to clean everything up. Clean the desktop, run adaware, a virus program, maybe clean up the registry a bit. Its all very simple stuff and my 800 dollar pc is still running top of the line.
     
    ContnlEliteCMH
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    RE: Mac System Vs. Windows

    Fri Apr 08, 2005 11:43 am

    Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 3):
    Even though I own 3 Macs and a Dell, I'm hard pressed to tell you specific reasons why one is better than another, because I really can't find anything useful to do with my Dell. It sits there and sends/receives faxes, and I stuck an extra hard drive in it to host my shared internal iTunes music files and process video files. Yes, Macs are supposed to be "better" doing a/v work than a Winbox, but in my experience, an idle Winbox doing nothing other than gnawing on video bits, then transferring it across my network to do the creative part, works out better for me, since it keeps the CPUs in the Macs freed up.

    It really all boils down to what you want to do with your computer. Any advice offered without knowing what that is is just stabbing in the dark.

    Well, I'll chime in from the other side. I hold multiple Microsoft certifications, so I have no Macs. I own several Windows PC's (surprise!), but I'll be the first to admit there won't be much difference.

    Seemingly, the Macintosh has become the new Amiga -- really good for video and audio editing, graphics, etc.

    As for total power, there won't be much difference either. In fact, you might get more total power with the Wintel platform. My latest purchase was an HP zd7000, fully loaded: P4 3.4 GHz HT, 2 GB RAM, the best video card, and 7200 RPM hard drive. The thing is a ROCKETSHIP. If you examine supercomputer lists, that laptop has more computing power than supercomputers did ten or eleven years ago.

    Stability is an interesting thing. In 1989, I took four quarters of calculus at Ohio State on a Mac IIcx. It was light-years ahead of its PC counterparts. But man, was it unstable. If you blinked at it wrong it crashed. It ate my first quarter final exam three times. But things have matured since then, so I doubt either platform will be substantially more unstable than the other.

    Stability is usually an issue of software you have installed on the O/S. There is so much software available for the PC (far more than for the Mac) that you simply can't predict what is going to happen with any possible combination. Microsoft's .NET will greatly reduce this, but it will be a while before a majority of apps use the .NET platform and avoid DLL hell.

    My Windows machines are very, very stable. How stable? I had *never* had a problem with Windows 2000 and later until a few months ago when my first laptop (running XP Home) had a registry hiccup. It was easily repaired; no reinstall was necessary.

    Want something to do with your idle processors? Join distributed computing projects! Several now use a common client called BOINC. My favorite is ClimatePrediction. http://www.ClimatePrediction.net. This project runs on all four of my machines, nearly 100% of the time, including my laptops. (It's running right now on the very machine used to compose this message.) In six months I've powered my way into the top 600 users globally, and usually move about eight places per day up on the list.

    How's this for stability? On October 30, 2004 I started crunching CPDN on my Dell Poweredge 400SC at home. Checking the CPDN website this evening, I see I have 99.876% uptime since that date. The figure would be higher, but I'm on the road five nights a week, and my house lost power in the middle of one week. That's a Windows 2000 server, running at 100% processor utilization day and night. CPDN is heavy computing, consisting of roughly 1/2 million lines of FORTRAN code. In other words, it uses all the FLOP capabilities of the modern microprocessor.

    To put the power discussion in perspective: my zd7000 (I only own HP/Compaq laptops; they're heavy, noisy, and hot, but they're the feature-for-price leader and they're battle tanks) with hyperthreading enabled will crunch *two* CPDN work units faster than the other laptop (P4 2.66 GHz) can crunch one. I'll put that monster up against a Mac anyday for raw computing power.

    Buy whatever you will make you happy. You want a Mac? Get one! You want a PC? Get one!
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    AeroWesty
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    RE: Mac System Vs. Windows

    Fri Apr 08, 2005 11:44 am

    Quoting Jfkaua (Reply 8):
    If you want more flexability and be in control more get a pc

    Hrm, I'm not sure if I agree with that statement since the Mac OS is based upon Linux. Could you explain a bit which features you feel give greater flexibility and control on a Winbox?

    And I don't mean to gloat, just to state, there aren't any adware or spyware apps for Mac that I know of, since we don't get infected by such things. The last real virus for the Mac I ran across was in 1987. I leave one of my Macs on 24/7, and when I opened up Windows access to it from the 'net, I found an IP address trying to break into it within 15 minutes. I let it run its attack app for 2 weeks before I finally blocked it. It never broke in.
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    ContnlEliteCMH
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    RE: Mac System Vs. Windows

    Fri Apr 08, 2005 12:13 pm

    Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 10):
    Hrm, I'm not sure if I agree with that statement since the Mac OS is based upon Linux. Could you explain a bit which features you feel give greater flexibility and control on a Winbox?

    Neither give increased stability, really. While the Mac O/S is based on Linux, it's not Linux. Even if it were, I'm not sure that really matters. Eventually people will be forced to realize that O/S's are commodity items. As one of the most mature software items on a computer, they are usually not the cause of most problems experienced by users.

    For example, I've lots of people who are *sure* that Linux is more secure than Windows. It's practically dogma for some. And yet, when pressed, nearly none of them can tell you *why* it's supposedly more secure. They can't even tell you at which layer most security vulnerabilities exist, or how they are countered. And yet, they are sure.

    A recent survey released by the Yankee Group showed that businesses don't really distinguish between Linux and Windows -- for anything. A vast majority of the respondents said that the cost of their Linux platforms is no lower than their Windows platforms.

    But it gets more interesting. Most of them claimed they used Windows because Visual Studio is so stinkin' good, and getting even better. You can develop applications very, very fast on the .NET platform. For me, programming is a new pursuit (I've been doing data) and I am astounded at how quickly a novice like me can develop secure, well-written code. It's a far cry from my college days writing numerical analysis programs in FORTRAN.

    Finally, the security issue: Windows was rated nearly as highly on security as Linux, a shocking closure of a gap which was much larger just a short time ago. This is happening for several reasons:

    (1) Microsoft's systematic approach to fixing security flaws inspires a great deal of confidence. Fact: Microsoft patches a higher percentage of its known flaws than any other manufacturer.
    (2) Microsoft's emerging security tools make it easier and easier to patch individual machines, and machines across the enterprise. The same set of tools are making it easier to scan the network and find flaws.
    (3) Microsoft's focus on secure code writing has really helped Windows and it's other retail products, like Office. A secure O/S is useless if you write apps which can easily be hacked.
    (4) .NET enforces best practices for writing secure code. It reduces one variable in the security equation -- developer ineptitude. That means that you can have confidence in the code you write for your Windows platforms.

    You may take what I'm about to say as my opinion, and only my opinion. I think that the day approaches quickly when security (as a perceived deficit) will vanish for the Windows platform. In fact, the factors above lead me to believe that they will eventually not only be more secure, but just plain secure.

    I love to chat with Microsoft-haters. Their attitude is pathological, and usually devoid of reason. I can always stop them with a single question: What must Microsoft provide for these "issues" to be eliminated, and are you willing to give them due credit if they fulfill your goals?"
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    LAS757300
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    RE: Mac System Vs. Windows

    Fri Apr 08, 2005 12:17 pm

    Yes, they are more stable. I've had mine since December and its Wunderschön! Never had any problems, no issues with Safari, and no software conflicts. Mein Apple Komputer gefält mir!
    KMSP
     
    AeroWesty
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    RE: Mac System Vs. Windows

    Fri Apr 08, 2005 12:19 pm

    Quoting ContnlEliteCMH (Reply 11):
    I love to chat with Microsoft-haters. Their attitude is pathological, and usually devoid of reason.

    LOL, well I hope you don't take me for one. The questions I've asked are indicative of what's euphamistically known around these parts as "an open mind". (And if you re-read my post, I definately said the Mac OS was "based on Linux" and made no other claims other than to relate my personal experience with it, which the OP had asked us to do.)
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    ContnlEliteCMH
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    RE: Mac System Vs. Windows

    Fri Apr 08, 2005 12:23 pm

    Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 13):
    LOL, well I hope you don't take me for one. The questions I've asked are indicative of what's euphamistically known around these parts as "an open mind". (And if you re-read my post, I definately said the Mac OS was "based on Linux" and made no other claims other than to relate my personal experience with it, which the OP had asked us to do.)

    Oh, not at all! There was nothing at all in your post that was unreasonable. Frankly, I doubt anybody is really in a position to judge the relative stability of either platform. And I think it's a moot point. On the whole, they are both pretty stable, and getting more stable. That's what happens when companies with smart people try to improve their products, and I think that accurately describes both Apple and Microsoft.
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    AeroWesty
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    RE: Mac System Vs. Windows

    Fri Apr 08, 2005 12:28 pm

    OK then, out of my post you quoted, I asked where the poster saw greater flexibility and control with the Windows platform. You didn't address either issue. Would you like to now?  Smile
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    ContnlEliteCMH
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    RE: Mac System Vs. Windows

    Fri Apr 08, 2005 12:39 pm

    Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 15):
    OK then, out of my post you quoted, I asked where the poster saw greater flexibility and control with the Windows platform. You didn't address either issue. Would you like to now?

    Sure. He won't. Since we are talking strictly about *desktop* usage, we can define some very basic categories for flexibility and control:

    (1) Video and audio. Pretty much the same on both. Video and audio are becoming commodities.

    (2) Desktop configuration. Again, the same on both. You can set up multiple independent (and simultaneous) users on a Windows XP machine; I would assume you can do the same on a Mac.

    (3) System control. Pretty much the same. It's not like the vast majority of Mac users want to control threading, disk access times and methods, or memory allocation. Neither do Windows users. This is the point of an operating system: it abstracts you from the hardware, and acts as a go-between for what you want to do, and the way the hardware must do it.

    I definitely disagree that Windows offers more flexibility and control, because I doubt that there's a serious difference between either. (Now, if we're gong to talk about servers or coding, the discussion will change *quite* a bit.)O/S's are becoming like cars. Does Honda offer more flexibility and control than Chevy? Nope.

    In fact, I'll ratchet up the rhetoric a little. I believe strongly that any given task should be performed consistently regardless of the specific application. For example, when you want to save a file in Word, or in Windows Media Player, or in a graphic design application, you should be able to do it the exact same way, all the time. My point here is that "control" is usually a word substituted for "consistency" and "works well" by people who don't trust what other people are doing. You don't need "flexibility and control" if the people who write the software underneath are doing their job well.

    Like I said, our thread starter should buy whatever will make him happy.
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    F9Widebody
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    RE: Mac System Vs. Windows

    Fri Apr 08, 2005 12:47 pm

    Quoting Sabena332 (Reply 2):
    No, because I usually prefer the Apple websites in German language. Thanks a lot for this link, I will read it now!

    Here's the same site. In German

    http://www.apple.com/de/switch/

    I agree with most of the above posters. Apple is more stable, and has a "wow" factor that PC's don't. It remains incredibly functional while looking good. I've been a PC guy all my life, I've built them, and I would like to think that I am pretty advanced when it comes to a technical problem, and I just ordered my first mac.

    Regards
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    AeroWesty
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    RE: Mac System Vs. Windows

    Fri Apr 08, 2005 12:48 pm

    Well I pretty much agree with you on that, which is why I asked where the flexibility and control issue came up.

    My experience has been that the Mac and a Wintel box have intuitive differences (that I pick up on quickly when using side-by-side doing the same tasks).

    I find I have more "control" over the entire system, more configuration options, more flexibility on how I use it than on a Windows machine. That could be due to familiarity, however, when I try to do some of the same things on the Winbox, it either doesn't have that feature or doesn't do it nearly as well--and I'm not talking about the differences in Word for PC vs. Word for Mac, etc., I'm talking about master configurations, networking issues, general access, etc.

    I still have an open mind about what Windows can do, however, I don't always think it's a "buy whatever will make you happy" situation until one knows what will make a person happy. That's why I solicited from Patrick how he'll be using his machine.

    Cheers.
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    ContnlEliteCMH
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    RE: Mac System Vs. Windows

    Fri Apr 08, 2005 12:52 pm

    Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 18):
    I'm talking about master configurations, networking issues, general access, etc.

    Got some examples? I'd love to hear them, since I'm not a Mac user.
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    AeroWesty
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    RE: Mac System Vs. Windows

    Fri Apr 08, 2005 1:20 pm

    Quoting ContnlEliteCMH (Reply 19):
    Got some examples?

    Networking is one. My lord, I struggled for 6 months to use the Dell as a general server/print server to take that load off one of my Macs, and everything I wanted to do wasn't available in XP Home, I'd have to upgrade to XP Pro. Windows wants to default to setting everything up via wizards, that don't always lend themselves to plugging in what you want to do and going on about your business. Forget about reliably connecting to a WebDAV. Just forget about it, LOL.

    There's a little-known setting in the Mac OS that let's you mimic the workgroup for Windows, and you instantly have access to any PC workgroup you want, in addition to servers on the Macs.

    Want to share a printer? All the printers on the network automatically appear in the print dialog box on a Mac. No configuration needed. Rendezvous on the Mac is something that Windows can only dream about.

    Want to video conference? I can do it with all the built-in software I already have, and there are no burps or hangs in the system. I can even broadcast to others what's playing on my VCR or what I'm watching on TV.

    Want to burn a disc? On the Mac, I can share the DVD/CD burner on another machine. One just sends an image file over the network to the other machine, and then it sits there and burns uninterruped without anything else I'm doing interferring with it. The Dell doesn't even see the burner on the Mac, let alone burn to it.

    Want to read/write e-mail? With the built-in Mail.app, I can simultaneously connect to IMAP, POP *and* AOL e-mail.

    Want to keep your contacts and bookmarks synchronized and backed up? iSync will store all the latest info from Safari and iCal and update each machine either manually or every hour.

    Want to watch a DVD? The Mac has built-in DVD reading software. I don't have to go spend $30 on an app just to play DVDs.

    Want to click on a window in another app? Just click on it. You can see them on a Mac. Windows has that crazy thing where it puts all the windows for each app in it's own master window. Drives me up the freakin' wall.

    I could go on and on and on.  Smile What the PC does well, is crunch data. I can send video files over to it, or load them directly, and it will sit there and munch right through them in no time. It's impressive. But for anything else I want to do, it takes moving mountains to have an inferior computing experience.

    But that's just my personal experience, having given the Dell 3 years to do something as good or better than any of my Macs. Of course, YMMV.  Smile
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    NoUFO
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    RE: Mac System Vs. Windows

    Fri Apr 08, 2005 11:13 pm

    Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 20):
    Want to watch a DVD? The Mac has built-in DVD reading software. I don't have to go spend $30 on an app just to play DVDs.

    Neither did I have to. And the built-in application on my PC works MUCH better than that on my Mac.

    Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 20):
    Want to click on a window in another app? Just click on it. You can see them on a Mac.

    Which drives ME crazy. I'd like to see the application I'm working with - and nothing else. If you don't need it, don't show it. Yeah, I know it's "doable" on a Mac as well.

    Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 20):
    Windows has that crazy thing where it puts all the windows for each app in it's own master window.

    Sorry? Wasn't that a "feature" (burden) of Win 3.1/3.11?

    Yesterday evening, I needed to do some work on my Mac and launched Flash which caused a system crash. Tried again and again and again, deleted the prefs, searched the hard drive for damaged spots - and finally reinstalled Flash.

    A colleague of mine (and a long time Mac evangelist) ordered a new titanium Powerbook plus a "free external hard drive" - which arrived MONTHS later. In the meantime (the time between delivery of the Powerbook and the external hard drive) she had to return the Powerbook twice, because MacOS X shut down for whatever ominous reason and because the processor run hot.

    The max. screen resolution of iBooks is a joke - at least if you plan to plug in an external monitor.

    Know a company with a service far worse than Deutsche Telekom? Right, it's Apple - as it has always been.

    Copy some files from a PC formatted disk, such as a Zip-Disk and the Macintosh will capitalize most of the filenames. Bad luck if those files were part of a website.

    Flash for Macintosh is notoriously slow and buggy, Authorware is nonexistent. Adobe and Macromedia have always been strong supporters of the Mac platform - and even they had thinned out their Mac development division. Now their software for MacOS is either buggy, appears late - or doesn't appear at all.

    Is a PC better than a Mac? No, but a Windows PC can be as stable (depending on the number of games and downloaded crap you have installed, not available for Macs). In fact, Macs are great, but they are computers, meaning they WILL crash, they WILL drive you crazy, they WILL put you in an awkward position.

    Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 3):
    Yes, Macs are supposed to be "better" doing a/v work than a Winbox,

    Video: For beginners: Yes. For professionals: No. Multimedia (Flash, Director, Authorware, Dreamweaver): No. Audio: Yes, although I have heard Logic Pro became unreliable. Print: Yes

    Quoting UAL747 (Reply 6):
    I just bought an Apple....let's just say, "Once you go Mac, you never go bac!"

    Well, after years of working almost entirely on a Mac, I'm now back to using a PC most times.

    Consider buying a Powerbook (rather than an iBook), you won't be disappointed as long as you don't kid yourself.

    [Edited 2005-04-08 16:17:13]
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    hawaiian717
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    RE: Mac System Vs. Windows

    Sat Apr 09, 2005 12:03 am

    Oh man, lots of misinformation in this thread to correct...

    Mac OS X is not based on Linux. It is derived from FreeBSD, another open-source OS that isn't as well known by the general public.

    I actually agree with the comments that the relative stability of both OS's is similar. Classic Mac OS (OS 9 and before) is roughly comparable to the MS-DOS based Windows (up through ME). Mac OS X and Windows NT kernel (2000 and XP) are also about the same as far as stability goes. However, Windows falls apart much easier, especially with all the malware which can flood the system.

    Which brings me to the security argument. Windows is less secure than Linux or Mac OS X. Part of this is poor default configurations, which seem to be slowly improving with XP SP2 and Server 2003. But part of this is design flaws, particularly in applications that are too closely integrated with the core OS. Internet Explorer/ActiveX is the obvious example, as the various malware exploits are able to do far too much. No site on the internet should be able to just install stuff on your machine.

    Yes, you can have separate accounts for different users with Mac OS X, just like with Windows 2000 and XP.

    NoUFO, I'm curious about the DVD player thing. You said your computer has a built in DVD player that is better than the one included with OS X. Can Windows Media Player play DVDs? If so, why then did eMachines bother to include a bundle-licensed copy of PowerDVD with my PC? Being the bargain priced manufacturer that eMachines is, you'd think they wouldn't include something if they didn't have to cut costs. I asked because I haven't really tried, and I'm not really in the mood to turn the PC on to check.

    Putting windows for an application inside a single master window, which is called Multiple Document Interface is alive and well in the Windows world, and I've seen it with Linux apps as well (Adobe Reader comes to mind). It's virtually non-existent on Mac OS X. Ultimately it's a design decision, but it can take some getting used to if you're coming from Mac OS X and not used to seeing it. I think the most trouble I've had with MDI is from Access, where windows seemed to move around a lot with part of them moving outside the visible area. Worse though is the inconsistency, where some Windows apps use MDI while others use SDI, where each window in an application stands alone.

    Service worse that Deutsche Telekom? DT must be pretty good then, since Apple is usually rated to have among the best customer service by Consumer Reports -- not to mention having the least problems to begin with, especially compared to the big PC manufacturers (HP/Compaq, Gateway/eMachines, Dell, etc).

    I use a FAT32 formatted USB drive regularly with my Mac. All-caps filenames don't seem to be an issue, unless it came from a Linux machine that had the drive mounted with type msdos rather than vfat (mount -t msdos rather than mount -t vfat. I do recall this being an issue with older versions of Classic Mac OS. There are rumors that Mac OS X 10.4 (Tiger) will even be able to write to NTFS disks, right now NTFS is read-only.

    There are reasons to get a 14" iBook over a 12" iBook. The processors are a bit faster. Also, even though the screen resolution is the same, some people might prefer everything on their screen to be a bit larger. I have a 17" LCD monitor at home, and a 19" LCD monitor at work, both run at 1280x1024, and I can see the difference.

    Video on Mac is only for beginners? Somebody better tell the people who make the NBC TV show Scrubs, since all the video work on that show is done on Macs with Apple software, Final Cut Pro. http://www.apple.com/pro/video/scrubs/

    Flash, Director, Authorware, Dreamweaver. Wrong on every count, though I'll give you half credit for Authorware (which needs Windows for creation, but playback can be done on Mac OS X). Flash, Director, and Dreamweaver all are available for Mac OS X.

    David / ABQ
     
    killjoy
    Posts: 601
    Joined: Thu Dec 02, 1999 6:00 am

    RE: Mac System Vs. Windows

    Sat Apr 09, 2005 12:28 am

    Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 10):
    Hrm, I'm not sure if I agree with that statement since the Mac OS is based upon Linux.

    OS X is based on FreeBSD and runs a kernel called Darwin.

    Quoting ContnlEliteCMH (Reply 11):
    (1) Microsoft's systematic approach to fixing security flaws inspires a great deal of confidence. Fact: Microsoft patches a higher percentage of its known flaws than any other manufacturer.
    (3) Microsoft's focus on secure code writing has really helped Windows and it's other retail products, like Office. A secure O/S is useless if you write apps which can easily be hacked.

    What do you mean by "manufacturer"? Security flaws in open source software are usually patched much faster. Plus, Microsoft's alleged new focus on security could not have helped those products yet, and the security principles used in .NET are not somehow unique to it. Expect improvements in Longhorn, if at all.

    Quoting ContnlEliteCMH (Reply 11):
    I love to chat with Microsoft-haters. Their attitude is pathological, and usually devoid of reason. I can always stop them with a single question: What must Microsoft provide for these "issues" to be eliminated, and are you willing to give them due credit if they fulfill your goals?"

    Microsoft must stop intentionally corrupting standards and promoting proprietary solutions. I don't give a rat's ass if anyone else uses Windows as long as my box running ObscureOS 0.7 can view webpages that aren't "optimized" for Internet Explorer, and as long as I can read and edit other people's wordprocessing documents without humongous problems.

    Is that too much to ask? Apparently it is, when Microsoft is involved. They must die.
     
    NoUFO
    Posts: 7397
    Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 7:40 am

    RE: Mac System Vs. Windows

    Sat Apr 09, 2005 2:28 am

    Hawaiian717,

    Yes, Windows MediaPlayer can play DVDs (even in kiosk/fullscreen mode just hit Ctrl+Enter - or Alt+Enter - don't know for sure now) but I usually use InterVideo WinDVD, which came with my Siemens/Fujitsu and I didn't even have to install. The only exception is "Cidre House Rules", a DVD WinDVD fails to play.

    I would, however, suggest to make use of PowerDVD, since I dislike Windows' Media Player.

    Video for "beginners" is too strong, I confess. FinalCut is a software for professionals and ambitious non-professionals. It's Apple's response to Adobe's Premiere.
    However, I was more thinking of broadcast-oriented systems. As far as I know, they either use SGI's, stand-alone boxes or Windows NT.
    But ok, I take that back, although I'm afraid, Discreet and Avid will sooner or later cease to support MacOS.
    Professional 3D animation software for MacOS is already rare.

    As for Flash & Director: I have never claimed, Flash and Director weren't available for MacOS. Heck, what do you think I have running on my Mac? Flash and Director are among them, that's right. But I also use the versions for Windows and after 7 years as a professional producer, I can safely say the Windows versions work better.
    I support the right to arm bears
     
    ContnlEliteCMH
    Posts: 1376
    Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2005 8:19 am

    RE: Mac System Vs. Windows

    Sat Apr 09, 2005 2:58 am

    Quoting Killjoy (Reply 23):
    Microsoft must stop intentionally corrupting standards and promoting proprietary solutions. I don't give a rat's ass if anyone else uses Windows as long as my box running ObscureOS 0.7 can view webpages that aren't "optimized" for Internet Explorer, and as long as I can read and edit other people's wordprocessing documents without humongous problems.

    Is that too much to ask? Apparently it is, when Microsoft is involved. They must die.

    It *is* too much to ask. It's an absurd request. Let's cut the heart of the matter, which may be described as twofold:

    (1) Intellectual property rights. Software is intellectual property. Somebody thought of it, created it, and published it. The assumption that software should somehow be exempt from every other property right in every other industry is incongruent with reality as well as history. Now, if you are a socialist at heart, we can agree to disagree about intellectual property rights. But if you love a free market, you *must* support IP rights, and you must grant software the same protections that you would every other piece of IP.

    (2) False assumptions of interoperability. IT seems to be the only industry where people assume that all software should work perfectly with all other software. We don't demand that Airbus' products interoperate with Boeing's. We don't demand that Ford engine be perfectly interchangeable with my Chevrolet. These things seem obvious, because they can be touched and seen.

    So here it is: Do you believe that software is not really intellectual property and therefore should not be protected as such? If so, then you hate Microsoft -- and Sun, and Novell, and IBM, and Oracle, and Apple, all of whom vigorously protect their IP. And you hate Saab, and Volvo, and Opel, and Volkwagen, and Honda. And Airbus and Boeing. And Encyclopaedia Britannica. And Merriam-Webster. And the New York Times. And Intel.

    Shall I go on? I believe it is mental midgetry at its finest for anybody to believe that software is exempt from the same market forces which bound every other industry, to wit: a real person creates the idea; a real person does the work; a real person or group of people make the investment; a real person or group of people *have the right to decide how they will send it to market.* You may choose to give your software away via open source or GPL; you may choose to protect it and sell it for any price the market will bear. THAT ISTHE RIGHT OF THE SOFTWARE WRITER. You run the risk of boldfaced hypocrisy when you somehow hold software to a standard that you gladly accept for all other industries and products.

    Do you believe in the myth of total interoperability? You live in a fantasy world. And you're a total hypocrite for not holding makers of other products to the same standards.

    I like to say it this way: My experience has been that people who want all software to be completely free have probably never written anything of real value. Or they are just people who think profit is evil. Either way, I disagree with them.

    Microsoft is not going to die. In fact, I think they are only going to get stronger because (a) some of their software is already best-of-breed; (b) their software is improving; (c) they rely heavily upon the partner channel to provide implementation skills and innovations, a partnership which has made money for a lot of us and drives up the benefit of their software. In other words, they've got lots of smart people working for them in their company, and they've got lots of smart people vigorously applying their products in the marketplace.

    Example: My current client (a Fortune 50 US home improvement retailer) has selected Microsoft Analysis Services and Microsoft Reporting Services to provide enterprise-scale information delivery and reporting. We are a DB2 shop, which is a fine product, though it's costs are *outrageous* and it is difficult to administer. My guess is that were the decision made today about which RDBMS to choose, the decision would be between Oracle and SQL Server, and SQL would have an *excellent* chance of winning that fight.

    Guess who they picked to help them do that? Me, of course, and I am highly motivated because their success is my success. Sun could take a lesson. They stifle their market by wanting to control so much of their channel. My goal is to be the best-of-breed architect/developer on the best-of-breed platform that is Analysis Services.

    Is it proprietary? Yup, and so is the methodology and design techniques I employ to make my clients successful. So are the white papers I write, and any code I write to make my clients more successful. You can hate me if you want, but it is my choice what to do with my intellectual property, not yours. If I choose to give it away, so be it. If I choose to sell it, that is an equally valid choice. That it is software has nothing to do with it.

    Quoting Killjoy (Reply 23):
    They must die.

    As I said, a pathological hatred totally devoid of reason. Thank you for illustrating my point so well.

    [Edited 2005-04-08 20:01:13]
    Christianity. Islam. Hinduism. Anthropogenic Global Warming. All are matters of faith!
     
    AeroWesty
    Posts: 19551
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    RE: Mac System Vs. Windows

    Sat Apr 09, 2005 3:33 am

    Quoting Killjoy (Reply 23):
    Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 10):
    Hrm, I'm not sure if I agree with that statement since the Mac OS is based upon Linux.

    OS X is based on FreeBSD and runs a kernel called Darwin.

    Yes, but I'm also addressing an audience who can't tell the difference between a nonstop and a direct flight, so it's easier to say Linux, since it's similar enough to be a recognizable name.  Smile
    International Homo of Mystery
     
    Sabena332
    Topic Author
    Posts: 14938
    Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 3:57 am

    RE: Mac System Vs. Windows

    Sat Apr 09, 2005 3:36 am

    Thanks a lot for all these interesting facts, guys! I will go to the Mac shop tomorrow to have a look at an iMac and to to pester the shop assistant with questions.

    Patrick
    NZ1's mother is a disgusting crack-whore and his father is a worthless alcoholic!
     
    thomasphoto60
    Posts: 3713
    Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2000 1:04 pm

    RE: Mac System Vs. Windows

    Sat Apr 09, 2005 6:20 am

    Quoting Sabena332 (Reply 27):
    Thanks a lot for all these interesting facts, guys! I will go to the Mac shop tomorrow to have a look at an iMac and to to pester the shop assistant with questions.

    Wise move.

    Over the past 20 or so years I have found that these Mac vs Windows battles are no more informative or useful than a Airbus vs Boeing threads in the Civil Aviation forum or a Nikon vs Canon thread over in the photographer's forum.

    As for me, I have used both OS's (and played around with Linux) over 20 or so years of computing but I keep returning to the Mac.

    Thomas
    "Show me the Braniffs"
     
    Klaus
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    RE: Mac System Vs. Windows

    Sat Apr 09, 2005 6:35 am

    MD11Engineer: Waiting for Klaus to show up!

    ...and finally here I am, always at your service! Big grin


    ContnlEliteCMH: Well, I'll chime in from the other side. I hold multiple Microsoft certifications,

    That wouldn´t be a big problem in itself if any of your remarks went at least a millimeter beyond offical Microsoft advertising.

    There are valid arguments either way. But a certain minimum of perspective beyond Microsoft partner mailings would only help your case.

    ContnlEliteCMH: so I have no Macs. I own several Windows PC's (surprise!), but I'll be the first to admit there won't be much difference.

    So how exactly do you make that assessment without actual Mac experience to back it up? Most people who actually know both platforms see a significant gap in favour of the Mac.


    ContnlEliteCMH: In fact, you might get more total power with the Wintel platform.

    You might; Or you might not. Many people get more work done in less time when working on a Mac. And the current (and even more so the imminent) G5s are certainly nothing to sneeze at.


    ContnlEliteCMH: Stability is usually an issue of software you have installed on the O/S. There is so much software available for the PC (far more than for the Mac) that you simply can't predict what is going to happen with any possible combination.

    The problem is not so much in the number of software titles as in the way they have to interact under Windows. And that´s where the many problematic design decisions in the operating systems play a major role.


    ContnlEliteCMH: While the Mac O/S is based on Linux

    It isn´t (see below).


    ContnlEliteCMH: Even if it were, I'm not sure that really matters. Eventually people will be forced to realize that O/S's are commodity items. As one of the most mature software items on a computer, they are usually not the cause of most problems experienced by users.

    That is not quite correct. The fundamental design decisions taken in the operating systems strongly influence the architecture of the software that´s running on it, including usability and reliability. The comparison of Windows and MacOS is actually a pretty good illustration here.


    ContnlEliteCMH: A recent survey released by the Yankee Group showed that businesses don't really distinguish between Linux and Windows -- for anything. A vast majority of the respondents said that the cost of their Linux platforms is no lower than their Windows platforms.

    For some strange reason, this result only happens to emerge in surveys which happen to be made on behalf of Microsoft, not in independent ones. I wonder why that is.  crazy 


    ContnlEliteCMH: But it gets more interesting. Most of them claimed they used Windows because Visual Studio is so stinkin' good, and getting even better. You can develop applications very, very fast on the .NET platform. For me, programming is a new pursuit (I've been doing data) and I am astounded at how quickly a novice like me can develop secure, well-written code. It's a far cry from my college days writing numerical analysis programs in FORTRAN.

    I strongly recommend you to look outside of the ...ahem... window. Other systems offer excellent development environments as well, and Apple´s Cocoa is one of the best ones at that.


    ContnlEliteCMH: Finally, the security issue: Windows was rated nearly as highly on security as Linux, a shocking closure of a gap which was much larger just a short time ago. This is happening for several reasons:

    Considering the rampant infestations of Windows racing through the net that´s a rather funny statement to make. "At least they´re attempting to fix the mess they´ve made!" is not a really convincing argument when you´re considering to trust a system with your valuable data.


    Hawaiian717: Oh man, lots of misinformation in this thread to correct...

    Indeed - and you´ve thankfully corrected a bunch of them. With one exception:

    Hawaiian717: Mac OS X is not based on Linux. It is derived from FreeBSD

    Not exactly, I´m afraid...

    MacOS X runs a Mach Kernel (inherited from its NeXT roots) in its open source foundation system called Darwin; By default the standard system installer will install the BSD personality module which will add a BSD-compatible interface to (and on top of) the Mach Kernel; But OS X on its own (and most Applications) could live just fine even if you should choose to disable the BSD option for disk space reasons.


    Hawaiian717: Service worse that Deutsche Telekom?

    Uh, no. Apple Germany could do a better job in many respects, but their support is still excellent (it´s actually provided by their european call center in Ireland). Telekom is not actually as bad as many people like to paint them (except for their billing department which is actually worse), but they´re definitely not on the same level as Apple is, support-wise.


    ContnlEliteCMH: (1) Intellectual property rights.

    ...were not at issue here. The discussion was about abuse of monopoly power to suppress the possibility of effective competition.

    And we all know that Microsoft had already been found to be guilty - they were only saved by political intervention when Bush took over (incidentally, Microsoft was a massive contributor to the republican campaign) and basically canned the suit.


    ContnlEliteCMH: (2) False assumptions of interoperability.

    When interoperability is actively sabotaged in order to destroy possible competition that could threaten the monopoly, it becomes an issue.


    Sabena332: Thanks a lot for all these interesting facts, guys! I will go to the Mac shop tomorrow to have a look at an iMac and to to pester the shop assistant with questions.

    Have fun! Big grin
    And don´t hesitate to come back for any other questions!

    I myself use my Mac for a whole bunch of very different purposes (software development in very different areas being at the center - and none of them intended for MacOS at this point), and the main difference to the two main alternatives (Windows and Linux) in my experience is usability.

    Not so much what you can or can´t do on a given system, but how painful (or how easy) it is to get there.
     
    hawaiian717
    Posts: 3139
    Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:46 am

    RE: Mac System Vs. Windows

    Sat Apr 09, 2005 8:11 am

    Quoting ContnlEliteCMH (Reply 25):
    We don't demand that Ford engine be perfectly interchangeable with my Chevrolet.

    No, but we do demand that I can fill up either a Ford or a Chevrolet at the same gas pump from Chevron. Imagine if Ford redesigned their cars so that you needed a special pump, the regular ones wouldn't fit, but you could fill up the gas tank twice as fast. The fuel is the same, you just need a special pump from a Ford gas station. That's the kind of thing Microsoft likes to do with standards: Change or "improve" them a bit, so that everyone will want to use their version, breaking everyone else's. Why do you think there are web pages out there that only work with Internet Explorer for Windows?

    Quoting Klaus (Reply 29):
    MacOS X runs a Mach Kernel (inherited from its NeXT roots) in its open source foundation system called Darwin; By default the standard system installer will install the BSD personality module which will add a BSD-compatible interface to (and on top of) the Mach Kernel; But OS X on its own (and most Applications) could live just fine even if you should choose to disable the BSD option for disk space reasons.

    Actually, the OS X kernel is xnu, which is a hybrid with pieces from the Mach microkernel and the FreeBSD monolithic kernel. Darwin is the open source layer of the OS. It's true you can choose not to install the BSD layer (the userspace utilities I'd guess), but that doesn't change that there are parts of the FreeBSD codebase in the kernel. Where I was trying to go with that statement, though, is that Mac OS X is related to FreeBSD, not Linux.

    I agree that Mac versus Windows wars are about as useful as the Airbus/Boeing and Canon/Nikon wars. The Mac is better.  innocent 

    David / ABQ
     
    AeroWesty
    Posts: 19551
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    RE: Mac System Vs. Windows

    Sat Apr 09, 2005 8:29 am

    :: sit back and munch popcorn ::

    Patrick - You will let us know what you buy this weekend, or if you don't buy anything, right?  Smile
    International Homo of Mystery
     
    Sabena332
    Topic Author
    Posts: 14938
    Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 3:57 am

    RE: Mac System Vs. Windows

    Sat Apr 09, 2005 8:38 am

    Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 31):
    Patrick - You will let us know what you buy this weekend, or if you don't buy anything, right?

    I will buy nothing this weekend, just inform myself about iBooks, it can take a few weeks until I buy a new computer but of course I will let you know what I bought.

    The problem with the 12" and 14" Mac iBooks is that they only have a CD-RW/DVD-ROM and not a DVD-R/CD-RW. Furthermore I don't like that the 12" has only a 30GB hard drive.

    Patrick
    NZ1's mother is a disgusting crack-whore and his father is a worthless alcoholic!
     
    User avatar
    TheRedBaron
    Posts: 3081
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    RE: Mac System Vs. Windows

    Sat Apr 09, 2005 8:48 am

    My are of expertise is Macintosh computers....I can get into a war or quite technical, but that is nosense, every system has its weakneses and strong points.

    My advice for a Mac:

    If you dont want to be worried about Viruses, hacking and such get a mac.
    If you really like plug and play Get a mac ( I lov when a client connects a camera to Iphoto and viola! instant connection and recognition!!
    If you think a n Ipod is something you are going to buy Get a mac.
    If you have digital video and you have sparetime to ake Dvds very fast and troublefree Get a Mac.
    If you dont want to know about, drivers, jumpers, patches installers and unistaller adnauseaum..get a mac.

    One of my largest clients has 45 macs and 3 Windows servers I cherge more each months in support time for the Dang servers....

    For me the Mac is like an automatic car and the Wintel plataform is like a 7 speed car very flexible but you need to know how to get the juice out...

    my .02
    The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
     
    NoUFO
    Posts: 7397
    Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 7:40 am

    RE: Mac System Vs. Windows

    Sat Apr 09, 2005 8:50 am

    Quoting Sabena332 (Reply 32):
    The problem with the 12" and 14" Mac iBooks is that they only have a CD-RW/DVD-ROM and not a DVD-R/CD-RW. Furthermore I don't like that the 12" has only a 30GB hard drive.

    A screen resolution of 1024 x 768 isn't that great, either.
    I you can afford it, fork out some money and go for a Powerbook.

    http://www.mac-kauf.de/index.php?page=preise

    Edited to quote Patrick.

    [Edited 2005-04-09 01:51:57]
    I support the right to arm bears
     
    AeroWesty
    Posts: 19551
    Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 7:37 am

    RE: Mac System Vs. Windows

    Sat Apr 09, 2005 8:54 am

    Quoting Sabena332 (Reply 32):
    The problem with the 12" and 14" Mac iBooks is that they only have a CD-RW/DVD-ROM and not a DVD-R/CD-RW. Furthermore I don't like that the 12" has only a 30GB hard drive.

    Hmm, when I go to the U.S. Apple Store online, a SuperDrive comes with the 14" iBook (the DVD-R/CD-RW unit) as a $200 upgrade over the base 14" model. That will also get you a 60GB internal HD. You don't get the same options in Germany?
    International Homo of Mystery
     
    Sabena332
    Topic Author
    Posts: 14938
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    RE: Mac System Vs. Windows

    Sat Apr 09, 2005 8:58 am

    Quoting Theredbaron (Reply 33):
    If you dont want to be worried about Viruses, hacking and such get a mac.

    Sounds good!

    Quoting Theredbaron (Reply 33):
    If you really like plug and play Get a mac

    Sounds good!

    Quoting Theredbaron (Reply 33):
    If you think a n Ipod is something you are going to buy Get a mac.

    My girlfriend has an iPod, so, sounds good!

    Quoting NoUFO (Reply 34):
    I you can afford it, fork out some money and go for a Powerbook.

    I just saw the prices for the PowerBook, quite expensive but actually not relevant. I told my parents that the reparation of my old notebook will cost ~400 EUR, then my father said: "Buy a new one under the name of the company and send the invoice to my office". He didn't mentioned a cost limit Big grin.

    Well, I will compare a few notebooks (Apple and regulars) in the next few weeks.

    Patrick
    NZ1's mother is a disgusting crack-whore and his father is a worthless alcoholic!
     
    Sabena332
    Topic Author
    Posts: 14938
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    RE: Mac System Vs. Windows

    Sat Apr 09, 2005 9:00 am

    Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 35):
    Hmm, when I go to the U.S. Apple Store online, a SuperDrive comes with the 14" iBook (the DVD-R/CD-RW unit) as a $200 upgrade over the base 14" model. That will also get you a 60GB internal HD. You don't get the same options in Germany?

    Whoa, whao, sorry! I didn't look at the shop, only at "technical fact sheet. Thanks for the tip!

    Patrick
    NZ1's mother is a disgusting crack-whore and his father is a worthless alcoholic!
     
    AeroWesty
    Posts: 19551
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    RE: Mac System Vs. Windows

    Sat Apr 09, 2005 9:00 am

    Quoting NoUFO (Reply 34):
    I you can afford it, fork out some money and go for a Powerbook.

    I agree that a PowerBook is nicer, since it will let you extend your desktop onto a second monitor, not just mirror it. A PB will also give you more options for adding RAM (at least that's the way it used to be, things might have changed).

    I used my PB to run iTunes for a party once, and ran the iTunes visuals out to my 46" TV via S-video and the audio to my stereo. It was sweet. No one had seen anything like it.
    International Homo of Mystery
     
    Klaus
    Posts: 20594
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    RE: Mac System Vs. Windows

    Sat Apr 09, 2005 9:12 am

    A few points:

    • The new OS version 10.4 ("Tiger") is imminent. Make sure your dealer commits to providing you with the new version as soon as it becomes available at no additional cost (or wait a few weeks). At this time all Macs still ship with 10.3 ("Panther"), although Apple often provides new versions to "recent buyers" for free. Smaller updates are free, of course.

    • PowerBooks can use an external monitor as desktop extension, iBooks can only mirror the internal LCD (although there are inofficial "hacks" to "open" that feature on many iBooks as well).

    • iBooks and PowerBooks often have different software bundled. Apple´s original software is pretty good, so you should check out the differences.
     
    AC320
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    RE: Mac System Vs. Windows

    Sat Apr 09, 2005 9:12 am

    Quoting Sabena332 (Reply 36):
    Buy a new one under the name of the company and send the invoice to my office". He didn't mentioned a cost limit

    My father would be very wise not to ever say that to me, or a maxed-out Dual 2.5GHz PowerMac and 30" cinema display will give him a heart attack.

    FedEx said the Powerbook will reach my office at the university on Wednesday, so I'll let you know of my first experiences with the very very sexy laptop. Until then, I found an old blue coloured-iMac in the closet and a brand new G5 iMac in the campus bookstore to let me play around with while I moan that FedEx's aircraft can't get the damn Powerbook across the Pacific fast enough.

    Student developer discounts are insane!
    fuddle duddle
     
    Sabena332
    Topic Author
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    RE: Mac System Vs. Windows

    Sat Apr 09, 2005 9:23 am

    Quoting AC320 (Reply 40):
    My father would be very wise not to ever say that to me, or a maxed-out Dual 2.5GHz PowerMac and 30" cinema display will give him a heart attack.

    I don't want that my father will get a heart attack, so I will not exaggerate it and search for a rather cheap alternative. 

    Quoting AC320 (Reply 40):
    FedEx said the Powerbook will reach my office at the university on Wednesday, so I'll let you know of my first experiences with the very very sexy laptop.

    That would be great Justin, actually I wanted to reply to your "laptop" eMail to ask you if you can tell me about your experience with your new (soon arriving) Mac, but somehow I forgot it in all the trouble lately.

    By the way, I saw that iBooks and PowerBooks are a little bit cheaper in other European countries. Since my girlfriend is F/A, she has the chance to buy it for me or even I can get cheap flights, the only quation: Do I get Mac O/S in German or English when I buy an iBook for example in Spain? And is the warranty valid world/Europe wide?

    Patrick

    Edit:

    Klaus, sorry, I didn't see your reply earlier:

    The new OS version 10.4 ("Tiger") is imminent. Make sure your dealer commits to providing you with the new version as soon as it becomes available at no additional cost (or wait a few weeks).

    Thanks for letting me know about this!

    [Edited 2005-04-09 02:26:44]
    NZ1's mother is a disgusting crack-whore and his father is a worthless alcoholic!
     
    NoUFO
    Posts: 7397
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    RE: Mac System Vs. Windows

    Sat Apr 09, 2005 9:40 am

    Quoting Sabena332 (Reply 41):
    Do I get Mac O/S in German or English when I buy an iBook for example in Spain?

    It's the Spanish version then I suppose. Spain has completely different outlets, maybe even the voltage differs. So you'll need a new power pack and cable.
    And your father won't be able to set your notebook off against tax liability.  Wink
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    Sabena332
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    RE: Mac System Vs. Windows

    Sat Apr 09, 2005 9:45 am

    Quoting NoUFO (Reply 42):
    It's the Spanish version then I suppose. Spain has completely different outlets, maybe even the voltage differs. So you'll need a new power pack and cable.

    Ok, let's forget my idea.

    Quoting NoUFO (Reply 42):
    And your father won't be able to set your notebook off against tax liability.

    Another good argument to buy in Germany  Wink

    Patrick
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    NoUFO
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    RE: Mac System Vs. Windows

    Sat Apr 09, 2005 9:46 am

    Oh, and you'll need a new keyboard as well.
    In other words: Forget it.  Smile
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    Sabena332
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    RE: Mac System Vs. Windows

    Sat Apr 09, 2005 9:50 am

    Quoting NoUFO (Reply 44):
    Oh, and you'll need a new keyboard as well.
    In other words: Forget it.

    Yes, it was a stupid idea, actually I am glad that I can help the German economy, even when it is more expensive here  Wink  bigthumbsup 

    Patrick
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    Klaus
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    RE: Mac System Vs. Windows

    Sat Apr 09, 2005 10:08 am

    The powerpacks are universal; You´d only need a new cable for different countries.

    To the prices: In many cases, the difference is due to different tax levels.
     
    ContnlEliteCMH
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    RE: Mac System Vs. Windows

    Sat Apr 09, 2005 12:48 pm

    Quoting Klaus (Reply 29):
    That wouldn´t be a big problem in itself if any of your remarks went at least a millimeter beyond offical Microsoft advertising.

    There are valid arguments either way. But a certain minimum of perspective beyond Microsoft partner mailings would only help your case.

    Nice try. Really. (Applause.) You can always tell the people for whom this is not a debate, but religious dogma: they go straight for the person, not the message. As I said, and you want to ignore, I'm not some schlep who just happens to have a few desktop machines and plays some games on the weekends. Some of us actually make our living (and a good one at that) using Microsoft's software. Of course, if your objections deviated even one millimeter from the "attack Microsoft as only a marketing machine" line, they might have more merit. You conveniently ignore my direct statements that I work in a heterogeneous environment and am therefore exposed to quite some number of software platforms. Believe me, I'm quite qualified to comment upon the competitive position my chosen software occupies in the competitive marketplace. And I noticed you conveniently ignored the part where I *asked* for a different perspective. You will also notice that I never once disputed it. If he says it's easier for him to do those things on his Mac, *I believe him.* He was quite clear that it was his experience, and that a lot of this has to do with learned behaviors.

    By the way, I happen to agree with Microsoft because I think their assumptions and approach are *right.* You can treat me like a brainwashed moron if you want to, and I might not be surprised. But there are lots of other decision makers like me. Now, you can assume that we are just a bunch of morons all duped by the biggest conspiracy in history, or you can separate your technical religion from what this really is: business.

    I will grant you one point. You are correct when you say that I am not in a position to directly compare the two platforms. That's why I was very careful not to say Windows was better than the Mac. You'll also note that I said the typical user probably won't notice any difference in stability between the two platforms. All you said in return that there was a big gap, but of course, you fail to describe it.

    So, let's see... First, attack your opponent. Next, say they're wrong, but never describe how.

    Quoting Thomasphoto60 (Reply 28):
    For some strange reason, this result only happens to emerge in surveys which happen to be made on behalf of Microsoft, not in independent ones. I wonder why that is

    Oh, right. This is right out of the kook playbook. If you don't like the message, attack the messenger because there *must* be something wrong with them. Okay, let's rattle them off now.

    First, attack your opponent. Next, say they're wrong, but never describe how. Then, claim that any information contrary to your position is just paid lies.

    The Yankee Group, a paid Microsoft shill. Try again. You may actually go to their website and see that they are an independent company.

    http://www.yankeegroup.com

    Oh, and sabotaging interoperability. That's another good one. Yup, the mighty Microsoft, sitting around thinking about ways to jam up all your browsers and ruin your computing experience. Once again, you've brilliantly illustrated both my points: that Microsoft haters are pathological (and dogmatic; just read your post) and that you want to give an IP pass to the software industry. You've pretty much used all the cliches. Got any more?

    There is a major difference between me your ilk. I have chosen Microsoft software because I agree with their business model and I like their software. I freely grant anybody else the same. I mean that. I have no animus toward Sun, Novell, IBM, Oracle, Apple, or anybody else. Their software works.

    It's not personal; it's business, something that you can't seem to grasp.

    Got it? It's not personal. It's business.

    Here's what I tell my students in class, many of whom have extensive backgrounds in non-Microsoft products and want to compare: we will compare technologies all you want. It's fun, it's insightful, and the classroom is the best possible place to do it. But I won't tolerate a pissing match or holy war. Why? I consider the question about whose technology is "better" to be both misplaced and irrelevant. Only techies focus on "better technology." The real world focuses on "return on technology." At the end of the day, business only cares about two things. (1) Did my technology do what I needed it to do? And, (2) Did my technology provide a return on my investment? If the answer to those two questions are "yes" and "yes" then their choice was a good one.

    This same question applies to a potential Mac vs. PC buyer. If you *want* a Mac, buy it! Did you miss the part where I said (twice) to buy whatever makes you happy? Aaron Adams, the first person on the Apple switch TV commercials, is a friend of mine. He buys what makes him happy. I buy what makes me happy, and that happens to be something different than what he buys.

    Let's look at an example. As noted, my present client has chosen Microsoft software for OLAP and reporting. (Actually, more than that. They have switched to Exchange, and are presently discarding Netware in favor of Active Directory. I think they will make the total switch from LDAP to AD in the not-too-distant future. But I'm sure they're just dupes too, right?) The SQL Server licensing is multiples cheaper than its competition. The hardware is considerably less expensive than the mahines running DB2. Do they like this? Sure. But it doesn't matter, and the reason is obvious. The lone subject matter we are using for process prototyping is a tiny part of the supply chain. This tiny part of the supply chain sees 1.5% of their total revenues flow through it, or $1 billion annually. A substantial portion of that stream is actually loss to my client. If the work we are doing in just this one area recoups 2%, that's $20 million, annually. The three year payback for this effort would be $60 million. The total cost of development, including software, hardware, and a handful of employees led by a high dollar consultant will not exceed $1 million.

    Let's say they didn't choose Microsoft products, but went with Cognos, or Microstrategy, etc. Let's say that the licensing is 10x what it is presently (not an overstatement, BTW). Let's say the cost to provide the same answers for this one subject matter area is 3x what it costs now: $3 million. Do you think they'd be dissatisfied with their decision? Heck no! The technical people will be hailed as geniuses and real business contirbutors if they do this successfully *regardless of the software chosen.*

    As a business owner, I have chosen the software writer that I think gives me the best chance for success. This is no religion; it's business. If I didn't think Microsoft gave me this best chance, I wouldn't have picked them. Into the future, if I think somebody else will give me a better chance, you can be sure I'll switch.

    Will you? I already know the answer to the question, and it so clearly illustrates that I am not the one engaged in a pissing match: "Not if it's Microsoft."
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    ContnlEliteCMH
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    RE: Mac System Vs. Windows

    Sat Apr 09, 2005 1:18 pm

    Quoting Hawaiian717 (Reply 30):
    No, but we do demand that I can fill up either a Ford or a Chevrolet at the same gas pump from Chevron. Imagine if Ford redesigned their cars so that you needed a special pump, the regular ones wouldn't fit, but you could fill up the gas tank twice as fast. The fuel is the same, you just need a special pump from a Ford gas station. That's the kind of thing Microsoft likes to do with standards: Change or "improve" them a bit, so that everyone will want to use their version, breaking everyone else's. Why do you think there are web pages out there that only work with Internet Explorer for Windows?

    Let's assume that everything you say is true. I have a couple of questions.

    First, if Ford put a proprietary fuel filler nozzle on their cars, isn't that their free choice? There would be nothing illegal or unethical about that. You might not like it, but then you have a choice, which is to buy something other than a Ford.

    Second, what is wrong with a company attempting to control a market? I'm not talking about a monopoly here, which is illegal. I'm talking about attempting to control a market, to have a dominant share, to protect their existing share, and even expand it. Boeing, for the first time, is developing a common engine interface. Is this an attempt to torpedo Airbus by enticing airlines to buy Boeings instead of Airbuses? You bet!

    In other words, I guess I'm asking, "So what?" Particularly since you said this:

    Change or "improve" them a bit, so that everyone will want to use their version,

    If you build something nonstandard that everybody wants to use, then you have become the new standard. Makes perfect sense, and there's nothing sinister about it.

    I can answer your Web question directly. There are Web pages out there that only work well with IE because *that was the choice of the Web page writer.* They can write it to be optimized for any browser they want, but most of them choose their pages to be optimized for IE.

    Let's look at another example with which I am quite familiar. ANSI defines standards for Structured Query Language, a standard by which relational databases may be manipulated and queried. Oracle, IBM, and Microsoft all implement their own versions of SQL. In other words, not a single one of these implementations conform only to the standard; they add to it here, change it a little there, and generally write software that they think will enhance their profitability at the expense of their competitors. And if you are an advanced T-SQL writer (Microsoft's implementation of SQL), I'll bet you any amount up to one Krispy Kreme donut that you would not be an effective query writer against DB2 without extensive study and practice. So when IBM adds a new function to DB2, are they suddenly sullying a standard and ruining life for everybody else? Of course not.

    Please understand that I am not defending Microsoft with these last two posts. I have very carefully chosen principles which I believe will lead *me* to great success. Would *I* like to control the market in which I play. Very much! Would *I* like to be the standard against which everybody else is judged? Yes. If *I* come up with nonstandard approaches and software that entice my customers to pay me confiscatory amounts of money to the exclusion of my competitors, then I accomplish these goals. There's nothing immoral or unethical about it.

    [Edited 2005-04-09 06:26:14]
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    bezoar
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    RE: Mac System Vs. Windows

    Sat Apr 09, 2005 1:21 pm

    I've been a Mac man since '91, but have also used Windows. I have three Macs and one Dell. I find the Macs much easier to use, easier to maintain, easy to upgrade, and easy to deal with peripherals. I could continue with accolades. One does run into conflicts and quirks with the Mac, though. OS X still freezes occasionally, probably because I still use several older OS 9 programs.

    While there are some programs that are only available for Windows, like MS Flight Sim, you get all the key programs for the Mac. Though some Mac versions don't always have every feature of the Windows counterpart, often the Mac version has others. Often the Mac versions are superior to their Windows counterparts. (I'd say 'usually', but fear too many people would think I'm baiting them.)

    With Mac Link Plus one can open just about any file, and save files in almost any format. I use Word and Excel a lot, and have no problems sharing files with Windows users without any translators at all.

    Prices on Mac have really come down to where that is no longer much of an issue. Some things are standard on a Mac that are options on a PC. My wife uses a 800 MHz G3 iBook, and it has served well in many capacities. One can run a mirrored monitor off of one, and give one the benefit of a large screen.

    I'm sure there are some benefits to a Windows machine. After all, I do have one in the house. I'm just having a hard time remembering why I got it.

    Just my opinions....
    "There are none so blind as those who will not see."

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