bravo7e7
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Your Opinion On Punks/Gothics

Tue Apr 12, 2005 9:23 am

What is your opinion on Punks and Goths? How about the Religion Wicca? Before I say anything else I will stop and let some other people answer first.




Note: This is not any different than the "your opinion on Christianity" or such threads, or any other thread concerning religion.

[Edited 2005-04-12 02:34:24]
 
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OzarkD9S
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RE: Your Opinion On Punks/Gothics

Tue Apr 12, 2005 9:27 am

I like Wiccans. They have an Earth based faith and mind thier own business. Unlike some major religions I could mention.

Punk rock is great! At least the original form...Ramones, Sex Pistols, Clash etc...now we get SONS OF PUNK which is really just retro.

Goths always seemed cool too me, from afar. The ones I knew personally were too much "in the scene" and not really thier own personas. Kinda sad.
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IHadAPheo
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RE: Your Opinion On Punks/Gothics

Tue Apr 12, 2005 10:24 am

I enjoy listening to the Sex pistols, Ramones, The Clash as much now as I did back in 76' Well 76' for the Ramones a bit later for the others. Heck I still will put on a Tenpole Tudor CD an have a blast. Back in my youth enjoyed everything from punk, blitz, ska.protogoth, ah if only I could squeeze into the old bondage pants,,

Now I listen to everything from classical to punk, including alt-country a bit of electronic. Heck I have some Killers, Franz-Ferdinand and Scissor Sisters around and I am on a huge Morrissey/Smiths binge at the moment.

As to the Goth scene .. I enjoy most of the look and a good bit of the music, it kind of takes me back to my youth..

In regards to WICA, I can understand their beliefs and have no problem with them or their religion. From those that I have met I will say that there is no forcing of their views on to anyone, they look beyond the obvious and try to learn about things. I have to say that I have only met about 6 or so Wiccans so I may have just been lucky.



IHAP
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SlamClick
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RE: Your Opinion On Punks/Gothics

Tue Apr 12, 2005 10:28 am

We need more blond goths!

Seriously I find all of the above shamefully self-absorbed and narcissistic.
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LHMark
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RE: Your Opinion On Punks/Gothics

Tue Apr 12, 2005 10:30 am

I really like goth music, but I was never into the aesthetic. That said, some goth chicks are really hot. Viva le corset!
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Usairwys757
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RE: Your Opinion On Punks/Gothics

Tue Apr 12, 2005 10:37 am

I listened to stuff like ACDC, Nirvana, Metallica, Staind etc but was never really into the goth scene.

Never was a goth, never wanted to be a goth. Thats cool if you were/are though.
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Newark777
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RE: Your Opinion On Punks/Gothics

Tue Apr 12, 2005 10:37 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 3):
Seriously I find all of the above shamefully self-absorbed and narcissistic.

That just about sums up my opinion of them. I have always found them odd and reclusive, and I don't particularly like punk or goth music. Of course, some people would call me a prep (I shop at Abercrombie  Wink), so they are really a totally different group of people than the ones I hang out with.

The goth and punk girls I completely don't understand. Some could be hot, but they get all dressed up in those clothes and the dark makeup, and really aren't hot at all. Just my opinion.

Harry
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aerorobnz
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RE: Your Opinion On Punks/Gothics

Tue Apr 12, 2005 10:43 am

The whole Punk Culture is a very healthy and genuine idiology. It is all about allowing personal choice and taking accountability for your own life and the decisions we make. Freedom of expression is an important aspect as well. Punk is all about questioning the status quo, and being proactive in whatever field, rather than just being reactive once something has already happened. Punk isn't about brightly coloured mohawks or wearing pins in our noses and being violent, nor is it about wearing skate clothes, Chuck Taylors and spiking your hair. Both are just style trends that come and go, but dissent and striving for true freedom and democracy will always remain.

Goths have also been much maligned in recent years, and admittedly it tend to attract those with morbid tendencies these days because much of the original ideas have been lost. I have to say I don't know an awful lot about Goths, but because it's about real freedom of choice it is almost certainly a good thing.
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Hodges
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RE: Your Opinion On Punks/Gothics

Tue Apr 12, 2005 10:52 am

I've got no problem with punks at all. They're music and all around style aint that bad either.

I've got no clue what Wiccans are. Can somebody enlighten me?

Goths on the other hand, I've got a problem with, at least the ones that go to my school. I hate it how they don't want to conform to society but are just conforming to their other goth friends expectations and wants. If they didn't actually conform there would be no term to generally describe them.

Also many of the goths here at my high school are into being sad a lot of the time. Why would someone want to be unhappy all the time? And what's the deal with all the wrist cutting? It's disgusting and there are much better ways to deal with emotional pain or whatever drives them to do such a thing.

I also hate goth music. Bands like Pantera, System of a Down, etc. only yell a lot with really loud bending guitar notes. That's it. Even i could be a singer on one of those bands because I can yell despite the fact that I have no musical talent.

I also hate how the goths at my school are so damn emotional. They need to realize that shit happens in life that you can't always control and to just deal with it. Other people their age have some of the same problems and deal with them without any big problems.

Don't even get me started on the makeup and clothes.

Erik
(Goths would call me a jock even though I've got a 3.7 GPA)
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Newark777
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RE: Your Opinion On Punks/Gothics

Tue Apr 12, 2005 10:55 am

Quoting Hodges (Reply 8):
I've got no clue what Wiccans are. Can somebody enlighten me?

It's like a fancy term for people who think they are witches. At least the one I know.

Harry
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copaair737
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RE: Your Opinion On Punks/Gothics

Tue Apr 12, 2005 11:01 am

I'm a punk. Seriously, its not all about the look, its more of an ideology. I used to get the whole look going, but not so much anymore. I still wear the black leather jacket, tight jeans, combat boots, and the Ramones shirt, but its not that much out of the ordinary. People like Newark777 talk about how we are all "self-absorbed" and whatever, but what about the preps? Its all about the latest fashions, and alls they care about is themselves and their self-absorbed little cliques.

-Copa
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Newark777
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RE: Your Opinion On Punks/Gothics

Tue Apr 12, 2005 11:06 am

Quoting Copaair737 (Reply 10):
People like Newark777 talk about how we are all "self-absorbed" and whatever, but what about the preps? Its all about the latest fashions, and alls they care about is themselves and their self-absorbed little cliques.

There's a difference between people who are actually punks, like yourself, and those that just wear the clothes and pretend to like the music. There are so many people that just want to fit in, they take on this whole persona just so people will accept them. Then you have the skateboarders, some of which call themselves punks, when they don't even know what that really means.

Harry
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copaair737
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RE: Your Opinion On Punks/Gothics

Tue Apr 12, 2005 11:20 am

Well, I have to agree with you on that one. Real punks are few and far between. The people who listen to Good Charlotte, Yellowcard, etc. and call themselves punks are the ones that piss me off. All that music is is just whiny "woe is me" bullshit. Real Punk music is hard to find nowadays as well. Most of it was at its heydey in the late 70s and 80s (Dead Kennedys, Misfits, Black Flag, Ramones, Clash, The Damned, etc.), with some bands still surviving today, (i.e. NOFX, Bad Religion). If you want further proof of this, look at the Warped Tour 2005's lineup. They call themselves a festival of Punk music. I fail to see a single punk band in the lineup. Relient K? WTF is that all about. Well, I'll get off my soap box now.

-Copa
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CaptOveur
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RE: Your Opinion On Punks/Gothics

Tue Apr 12, 2005 12:25 pm

Ah Wicca, the religion of those non-conformists who wish to rebel against their parents, and in doing so conform to a group of weiners who, for the most part, don't really understand what they are rebelling against.

Goths, same deal, they are rebelling against something they do not understand. They are trying to seperate themselves from society, and at the same time bitching about not being accepted. The more they bitch about their lack of acceptance the further they try to push themselves from the norm. Most of the goths I know are actually spoiled rich kids who honestly have the absolute least to bitch about. Almost without acception they fall into my "just doesn't get it" classification.
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flight152
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RE: Your Opinion On Punks/Gothics

Tue Apr 12, 2005 12:31 pm

All that music is is just whiny "woe is me" bullshit. Real Punk music is hard to find nowadays as well.

How are bands on the Vans Warped Tour not "real punk"? Who are you to say that they are not?..just becasue they differ from the bands you are used to?
 
planespotting
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RE: Your Opinion On Punks/Gothics

Tue Apr 12, 2005 1:02 pm

Quoting Usairwys757 (Reply 5):
I listened to stuff like ACDC, Nirvana, Metallica, Staind etc but was never really into the goth scene.

yeah because right there my friend is the total epitome of goth music.....

Quoting Hodges (Reply 8):
I also hate goth music. Bands like Pantera, System of a Down, etc. only yell a lot with really loud bending guitar notes. That's it. Even i could be a singer on one of those bands because I can yell despite the fact that I have no musical talent.

again, complete and accurate in describing the music those darn goths are listening to....


okay some people need to figure out exactly who they don't like and what they are all about before posting aobut how they don't like them. Goth music could be classified as anything including slipknot, coal chamber, cradle of filth, and the like. But goth music could also be.......anything a Goth Kid listens to? Goth isn't really a genre of music, it's a style.

As for punk, in my younger days (yeah like im really fucking old now right...) i was a scene kid. I wore patches, buttons, goodwill clothes (still do), and a lot of either gear that most people classify as being "punk rock". But back then, i was thinking more that to be punk rock you had to do something in particular.

As I grew up, i realized more and more that being "punk" wasn't about doing what the "punk rock kids" said was punk. It is (from my standpoint) mainly about acting the part of yourself. You know how you feel, you know what you are, so why not be the most accurate depiction of yourself to the people who don't know you. Humans are extremely layered and detailed, and no one person can really know everything about another human being. Which is why you want to present the best "picture" of what you are to other people. not of what they want to see, but of what you want them to see.

But all things aside, Punk is generally associated with music. When i think of a band that i think is the definition of punk rock, i think of Minor Threat (and now Fugazi, which has many of the members from minor threat). True to their fans, true to their word, and most importantly true to their scene. These guys have been in the DC punk scene since the early 80's and they have single handedly kept it going and have not let it die. It's amazing what Ian McKaye and his cronies at Dischord (record label) have accomplished in their 20+ years of being involved in the DC punk scene.


and on a side note, here are some general genres of music (very general, you could get way more specific...) and the bands that relate to them. maybe this will help some of you who obviously can't tell nirvana from AC/DC...

Grunge: Nirvana, Bush, Pearl Jam, Staind
Rock: AC/DC, Red Hot Chilli Peppers, Smashing Pumpkins, Van Halen, Bon Jovi,
Metal: old Metallica (Garage Inc. and after NOT included), Manowar, Arch Enemy, Pantera
Hair Metal: Poison, Motley Crue, Great White, Def Leppard
Punk: NOFX, Rancid, Bad Religion
Pop Punk: Green Day, Blink 182, A New Found Glory, Simple Plan
Hardcore: Converge, The Refused, Hot Cross, Botch
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skyservice_330
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RE: Your Opinion On Punks/Gothics

Tue Apr 12, 2005 2:11 pm

Quoting Hodges (Reply 8):
It's disgusting and there are much better ways to deal with emotional pain or whatever drives them to do such a thing.

Its easy to stand on the outside and tell someone there is better ways to deal with something. You don't know what people are dealing with. Self mutilation is a sign of very serious emotional distress.

Quoting Hodges (Reply 8):
I also hate how the goths at my school are so damn emotional.

Emotional expression is healthy. Bottling things up only leads to problems.

Quoting Hodges (Reply 8):
Other people their age have some of the same problems and deal with them without any big problems.

People deal in different ways and people have different problems. Not every teen has the same problems.



Let people dress the way they want, listen to what they want. Hell, life would be pretty boring if we didn't have people walking around with mohawks or black makeup. Live and let live.
 
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aerorobnz
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RE: Your Opinion On Punks/Gothics

Tue Apr 12, 2005 2:27 pm

Quoting Flight152 (Reply 14):
All that music is is just whiny "woe is me" bullshit. Real Punk music is hard to find nowadays as well.

How are bands on the Vans Warped Tour not "real punk"? Who are you to say that they are not?..just becasue they differ from the bands you are used to?

There were some good bands in that tour, but they were certainly more carefree teenage angst based pop-punk than full strength Anarcho-Punk Rock.

It's like the difference between a 707-300 and a 737-800. They look similar, but the modern version has 2 less engines, isn't as noisy or as smokey, and is easier to fly. Real Punk is Visceral, raw and honest, not manufactured in a So-Cal Studio to sell the most CDs.

I tell you the best concert I went to was NOFX at the Brixton Academy in London. That's an awesome 'old school' venue, and there weren't too many skater punk boppers to lesson that 'Ramones' style London Punk atmosphere. It's the kind of place that has mosh pits that literally crush all those who don't know the correct way to mosh. You tend to leave with less teeth and more broken bones than you went in with if you don't know what you're in for, and where anything less than steel toe Doc boots will leave you with bloody stumps on your feet....lol the good old times. Thats what a lot of us 'purists' mean by calling most of the modern 'punk' bands a lot less in your face and brutal. It's more "I don't mind if you don't like me, if that's ok with you'' than "I don't give a fuck what the hell you think".
Flown to 120 Airports in 44 Countries on 73 Operators. Visited 55 Countries and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.
 
N1120A
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RE: Your Opinion On Punks/Gothics

Tue Apr 12, 2005 2:50 pm

Quoting LHMARK (Reply 4):
That said, some goth chicks are really hot.

Ab-so-lutely

Quoting Newark777 (Reply 6):
Some could be hot, but they get all dressed up in those clothes and the dark makeup, and really aren't hot at all.

You should check out www.suicidegirls.com before making that statement
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707CMF
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RE: Your Opinion On Punks/Gothics

Tue Apr 12, 2005 2:52 pm

I will have a question for those who know goths well enough.

Do blind goths use a black stick instead of a white one ?

Cheers,

707
 
UTA_flyinghigh
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RE: Your Opinion On Punks/Gothics

Tue Apr 12, 2005 3:23 pm

Quoting LHMARK (Reply 4):
That said, some goth chicks are really hot

Wasn't Ovidie gothic at some point in her life ?

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copaair737
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RE: Your Opinion On Punks/Gothics

Tue Apr 12, 2005 4:56 pm

aerorobnz- I agree with you 100%. I had the grand opportunity to watch NOFX in San Francisco, and later meet Eric Melvin and Fat Mike. What a great experience. Real punk to me is rebellion; fast, ferocious thrashing, questioning authority. This "emo" business that calls themselves punk whines about emotions. That to me is not punk, but rather the flavor of the week. Flight 152, the Warped Tour is not really "punk" anymore, its trendy and its an emo festival in everything but name. I mean shit, Relient K is all about religious nonsense. How punk is that? oh thats right, not very.

-Copa
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Thom@s
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RE: Your Opinion On Punks/Gothics

Tue Apr 12, 2005 5:38 pm

No problem with Goths, apart from those who act as "wannabe goths"... They really pi$$ me off...

People who dress all black and wear white makeup, but who don't like Gothic music, are like men who'd rather dress up like women than sleep with them.

Thom@s
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WunalaYann
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RE: Your Opinion On Punks/Gothics

Tue Apr 12, 2005 5:59 pm

Quoting Planespotting (Reply 15):
Grunge: Nirvana, Bush, Pearl Jam, Staind
Rock: AC/DC, Red Hot Chilli Peppers, Smashing Pumpkins, Van Halen, Bon Jovi,

Agreed, except for the fact that one could make case about the Smashing Pumpkins being punk or grunge.

And the Red Hot Chili Peppers are not really in the same category as Van Halen and AC/DC...

Cheers,

Y.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Your Opinion On Punks/Gothics

Tue Apr 12, 2005 8:08 pm

i went to high school in Berlin during the late 70s, early 80s, right during the punk movement´s great days. I nerver was a punk (I was always a bit special, prefering jazz, but at the same time, I was growing my hair long, wearing a viking style beard, riding a motorbike, and dressing in jeans, combat boots, khaki shirt and US Army M65 field jacket, no earrings or other piercings for me), but I had several punk friends (and I liked occasionally to dance "pogo" with them during parties, a mix of dancing and rugby style tackling somebody to hard music, great fun!). What I liked about them was their openess and their anarchist political attitude, plus their tolerance. On the other hand they had a will to fight back if necessary. What I didn´t like to much was often their lack of personal hygienics and the resulting pong.

Jan
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Titch
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RE: Your Opinion On Punks/Gothics

Tue Apr 12, 2005 8:32 pm

Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 23):
Agreed, except for the fact that one could make case about the Smashing Pumpkins being punk

Ummm, no. The Pumpkins were never regarded as 'Punk'. The media tried to lump them in with the Grunge movement, because it was regarded as the 'in thing' at the time.

I reckon Billy Corgan and co. should've been credited with what was the beginnings of the 'Emo' genre.

Personally, I can't stand these media idiots trying to label a group of musicians/people as one genre or another - music is music. Sadly, some people feel the need to be able to package up 'trends' these days for mass consumption by a public who has no idea what it's all about in the first place.

To be quite honest, I couldn't give a shit what people wear or what 'style' they wanna conform to. That's their choice. If they want to express themselves by wearing nothing but black - fair play to them. So long as it makes them happy.

Quoting Hodges (Reply 8):
Goths on the other hand, I've got a problem with, at least the ones that go to my school. I hate it how they don't want to conform to society but are just conforming to their other goth friends expectations and wants. If they didn't actually conform there would be no term to generally describe them.

Also many of the goths here at my high school are into being sad a lot of the time. Why would someone want to be unhappy all the time? And what's the deal with all the wrist cutting? It's disgusting and there are much better ways to deal with emotional pain or whatever drives them to do such a thing.

I also hate goth music. Bands like Pantera, System of a Down, etc. only yell a lot with really loud bending guitar notes. That's it. Even i could be a singer on one of those bands because I can yell despite the fact that I have no musical talent.

I also hate how the goths at my school are so damn emotional. They need to realize that shit happens in life that you can't always control and to just deal with it. Other people their age have some of the same problems and deal with them without any big problems.

Don't even get me started on the makeup and clothes.

And you're bothered by these people, why??  Yeah sure

Just because someone looks different or believes in different things to you, does that make them a bad person?

As for your quote about the 'wrist cutting', have you ever felt that low before? I sincerely hope not. You need to understand that it's a release for some people. I've been there myself. Thankfully, I didn't cause myself any major damage, but still. Do me a favour and don't judge somebody's actions until you know the full extent of what they're going through.  Angry

Quoting Planespotting (Reply 15):
okay some people need to figure out exactly who they don't like and what they are all about before posting about how they don't like them.

Amen to that!

Quoting Planespotting (Reply 15):
As I grew up, i realized more and more that being "punk" wasn't about doing what the "punk rock kids" said was punk. It is (from my standpoint) mainly about acting the part of yourself. You know how you feel, you know what you are, so why not be the most accurate depiction of yourself to the people who don't know you. Humans are extremely layered and detailed, and no one person can really know everything about another human being. Which is why you want to present the best "picture" of what you are to other people. not of what they want to see, but of what you want them to see.

One of the most intelligent quotes that I've seen for a long time. Welcome to my Respected Users List.


Titch
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planespotterx
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RE: Your Opinion On Punks/Gothics

Tue Apr 12, 2005 9:13 pm

My problem is I listen to "goth" music, and wear the same stuff as they do, and yet I dont consider myself to be Goth at all.
Im just myself I guess, I hate the fact that Goths are portrayed as having some "vendetta" against the world, thats not the case..why is individuality a bad thing?, why should someone be socailly punished just for being who they want to be, I mean why cant we all just be happy the way we are, we all go on about Equal Rights and yet the same people have these "views" on anyone who's different than them, ie goths, Moshers, Punks etc.
I too am Wiccan, after meeting a lady who was Wiccan on a work experience course it inspired me to delve deeper into the religion, I found its far more "relaxed" than other well-known religions, and it teaches not to harm or see others in a bad light (unlike some religions where if you dont believe what they do youll be going to hell or wherever).
Id say inside I guess im just a nice normal 21 year old guy, but people only see me from the outside, they judge me easily by the things i wear, and that just goes to show how shallow society and the world has become.
Its not the fall that kills u, its the sudden stop at the end..
 
gkirk
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RE: Your Opinion On Punks/Gothics

Tue Apr 12, 2005 9:16 pm

Punks and Goths eh....they all need to have a wash, dirty gits that they are
 Wink
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Titch
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RE: Your Opinion On Punks/Gothics

Tue Apr 12, 2005 11:07 pm

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 27):
Punks and Goths eh....they all need to have a wash, dirty gits that they are

Dammit, Kirkie! Ain't you got some Spice Girls CD's to listen to, or something?  Wink
I'll make weapons out of my imperfections
 
Kieron747
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RE: Your Opinion On Punks/Gothics

Tue Apr 12, 2005 11:20 pm

Hi,

I never used to have an opinion regarding punks and goths, and jees, I grew up in the damn 1980's!

My issue is not with the possible religious/social ethos behind such things- each to their own.

I do now however have a problem with certain teenage wannabe goths nowadays. Its not really the appearance, I mean, I myself generally wear black clothes (I have never however worn white make-up and red lipstick!)

It's more of the attitude of the teenages goths I see around. They think they have life so hard, and are constantly sulking and skulking around the bloody bus station here in Quebec. Come on! Constantly moaning and whining about the 'teenage opression' and the unfairness of the world.

In my opinion is the age-old 'I'm a teenager and nobody understands me' bollocks combined with the 'trying to look different- but in reality actually conforming to the other wannabe goth' stereotype that burns my arse.

Message to teenager goths, with your 10-hole dockers, leather trousers, long black overcoat, died-black hair and the self-inflicted anaemic look. Get over it. You'll look back at yourself in a few years and think- What the hell was I thinking!!!

Just my 2p

kieron747
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planespotting
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RE: Your Opinion On Punks/Gothics

Tue Apr 12, 2005 11:35 pm

Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 23):
Agreed, except for the fact that one could make case about the Smashing Pumpkins being punk or grunge.

And the Red Hot Chili Peppers are not really in the same category as Van Halen and AC/DC...

Cheers,

haha i know. as i said, these are very wide genre categories. I would definitely not say that the Smashing Pumpkins were punk or grunge. SP was a great band, and argueably had a large effect on the "emo" movement of the late 90's and all the way up to today.
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British767
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RE: Your Opinion On Punks/Gothics

Tue Apr 12, 2005 11:46 pm

Regarding goths I just think....why are you making yourself so depressed?
 
planespotterx
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RE: Your Opinion On Punks/Gothics

Wed Apr 13, 2005 12:20 am

Regarding goths I just think....why are you making yourself so depressed?

Because many Goths cant associate themselves with society, to be honest its people who think that way of Goths who make them what they are, if Goths were seen as "cool" somehow then theyd somehow be more socailly acceptable and people wouldnt judge them on first impressions.
Thats why Goths are so hard-done by all the time, there victimised 24/7 by the very people they want to try and know, they feel isolated, insecure, not all their own fault, sure some people go throught bad times in their lives and the Goth culture is what appeals to them the most (like with Chavs who grow up with a prostitute mom and a dad who beats them up), its not what they are, its the way theyve been manipulated and twisted by society.
Its not the fall that kills u, its the sudden stop at the end..
 
SlamClick
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RE: Your Opinion On Punks/Gothics

Wed Apr 13, 2005 12:22 am

Quoting Aerorobnz (Reply 7):
The whole Punk Culture is a very healthy and genuine idiology. It is all about allowing personal choice and taking accountability for your own life and the decisions we make.

Absolutely the opposite of the truth. They are relentlessly and passionately CONFORMIST> They work very hard at looking like what they label themselves to be. Most non-punk, non-goths don't put one tenth the thought into clothes and accessories.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Your Opinion On Punks/Gothics

Wed Apr 13, 2005 12:37 am

Slamclick,

I was talking about the original punks back in the late 70s, early 80s. The stuff the guys wore came definitely out of the trash. They often lived as squatters in fortified, occupied houses (at this time we had a housing crisis in West Berlin and other German cities. Affordable housing for rent was artificialy made scarce by landlods letting apartment blocks sit emptyx and rot away, so that, after they became dangerously irrepairable from lack of maintence, get a permit to tear them down and build luxury apartments or office buildings, which would bring more profit than housing for ordinary people. As a result more militant young people would simply occupy such an empty house and renovate it for their own purposes. There were major street battles in Berlin between the police and these young anarchists, who declared their houses policefree zones). There was also the continous fights between punks and either fascist skinheads or a group we called "poppers", rich, expensively dressed teenagers (recognisable by their long, parted hair covering one eye, kashmere shawl and expensiver cars and clothes thanks to dad´s credit card).

We also had what was called "plastic punks", who just dressed up like punks as fashion statement, without sharing the political views (anarchism).
I´ve got no experience with goths, but what I liked about the punks was that they often were not afraid to step in if somebody was being bullied or threatened. A filipina I knew commented that she was scared by the punks in Berlin subway, but I pointed out to her that if she got attacked or molested e.g. by neonazis, these guys wouldn´t look away, but actually help her.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
Lemmy
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RE: Your Opinion On Punks/Gothics

Wed Apr 13, 2005 2:11 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 33):
They are relentlessly and passionately CONFORMIST

Come on. Isn't that using an awfully broad brush to characterize an entire culture?

Granted, I think there's something patently absurd about a 15-year-old who dresses up like a '79 London punk. But do you realize how much guts it takes for said 15-year-old to show up at high school like that? Just because most teenagers don't yet have cultural and visual vocabulary to express their alienation in original ways doesn't mean that their alienation isn't valid.

Interestingly enough, as I got older and more involved in the hardcore punk scene where I lived, I found that the true nonconformists were always the ones who looked least like it. I guess they stopped worrying about appearance and started putting their energy into organizing and speaking out. That transformation is great to see, but it's often beyond the means of a kid.
I am a patient boy ...
 
Superfly
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RE: Your Opinion On Punks/Gothics

Wed Apr 13, 2005 2:15 am

Some aren't too bad.


Bring back the Concorde
 
CaptOveur
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RE: Your Opinion On Punks/Gothics

Wed Apr 13, 2005 4:05 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 36):
Some aren't too bad.

Bravo7e7 is going to have you sent off to the cooler for that, if he doesn't gum up his keyboard first.
Things were better when it was two guys in a dorm room.
 
srbmod
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RE: Your Opinion On Punks/Gothics

Wed Apr 13, 2005 7:25 am

I was born too late for the original waves (NYC, London, SoCal) of Punk (Not really too late for all of them, but I don't think that there were any toddlers at Sex Pistols shows.) to be a fan then, but once I got into college, I got into the old school punk. Being on the staff of the campus radio station really got me into a lot of artists. Many of them I had heard of, but the chances of them being played on the radio were slim and none at the time. I have tracks from a number of old school punk artists like Iggy Pop (I'm talking the Stooges early stuff, not the rehash of the late 1970s), NY Dolls, Johnny Thunders, The Ramones, The Sex Pistols, The Damned, The Clash, Sham 69 (Really hard to pigeonhole them, especially since they are considered by some to be an Oi! band because of the N.F. following they unfortunately attracted at one point), The Jam (Not true punks, they got lumped in with the whole London punk scene even though they were about as punk as Ian Dury. But in short order they were the leaders [reluctantly] of the Mod revival sparked by the film version of Quadrophenia), Stiff Little Fingers and the Dead Kennedys. There are some other artists I need to get some stuff of like Generation X.

The punks today think that dying your hair and wearing some Docs and either leather or plaid pants and a Ramones/Clash/Sex Pistols t-shirt makes them punk (Just like they think shaving their head, putting on a Fred Perry, a pair of Docs, some braces, a pair of Levis, and a flat cap makes them a Skinhead.). It's the attitude, not the mode of dress that defines a group. Green Day is to me a mix of The Jam, The Clash, and Stiff Little Fingers. Rancid can't decide if they want to be The Clash or Madness. Flogging Molly and the Dropkick Murphies are punk bands in the vein of The Nips/The Pogues. Bad Religion, Social Distortion, NoFX have been hammering it out for years and have a cult following that goes to show that the Reagan years in California really helped to produce a sound that is unique.
 
Delta717
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RE: Your Opinion On Punks/Gothics

Wed Apr 13, 2005 7:45 am

Why does the whole world have to be labeled? Why are people judged on how they dressed or what music they listen to? Is our society actually so narcissistic (sp?) that we have to always have to belong to a group?

I fell into that whole "poseur-punk" scene a few years back. It's honestly embarassing to look back at it now.
 
ContnlEliteCMH
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RE: Your Opinion On Punks/Gothics

Wed Apr 13, 2005 8:37 am

Quoting Aerorobnz (Reply 7):
It is all about allowing personal choice and taking accountability for your own life and the decisions we make. Freedom of expression is an important aspect as well. Punk is all about questioning the status quo, and being proactive in whatever field, rather than just being reactive once something has already happened.

I think people should dress how they want, and think what they want, and be in groups that they want -- but this stuff above is just meaningless gobbledygook. Seriously, this is right out the Jim Tressel press guide.

For those who don't know, Jim Tressel is head coach of the football program at my alma mater, The Ohio State University. I love him, but I have never, and I mean *never* heard a man say so little with so many words. Let's go to a typical postgame press conference in which the mighty Buckeyes have destroyed their hapless opponent, and hear what he has to say...

Reporter: Jim, what did you think about your performance today?
Coach Tressel: Well, our opponent is a very good football team. It was two teams out there, playing hard for 60 minutes. Both teams really wanted it. Obviously I'm pleased we were able to prevail.

Reporter: Jim, discuss the Buckeye quarterback performance today.
Coach Tressel: Well, you know, Justin's a competitor. He did some good things today, but he made some mistakes, too. We won't really know until we look at the game film.

Reporter: Jim, you were not able to get the running game going today. Can you comment on your offensive line play?
Coach Tressel: Well, our lineman want to do a good job, and are great competitors. They work hard in practice. We'll just keep working hard and trying to improve.

Etc. So on and so forth. For ever and ever, in perpetuity, amen.

Quoting Aerorobnz (Reply 7):
It is all about allowing personal choice and taking accountability for your own life and the decisions we make.

Right. What isn't, unless you have a substance abuse problem or some other abusive habits? I can think of a lot more worthy ways to do this. Going to college and succeeding is about personal choice and being accountable. Giving a mother of three fatherless children a car after hers dies is about personal choice and accountability. Rising to the heights of your profession is about personal choice and accountability. Being committed to your husband or wife, and making your marriage work, is about personal choice and accountability. Raising your children to make good choices and become productive members of society is about personal choice and accountability.

Your hairstyle, your dress, the number of industrial bearings you wear in your earlobes, makeup, the music you listen to -- NONE of these things are about personal responsibility and accountability.

Quoting Aerorobnz (Reply 7):
Freedom of expression is an important aspect as well.

Freedom of expression is a poor substitute for *anything* of substance. Excellence is the ultimate expression of self, and it is eminently measurable, not some figment of dress, hairstyle, makeup, or other imaginative facade surrounding a person.

Quoting Aerorobnz (Reply 7):
Punk is all about questioning the status quo, and being proactive in whatever field, rather than just being reactive once something has already happened.

As if you need to be punk to question the status quo.
 sarcastic   sarcastic   sarcastic 

*Any* person of conscience and intellect questions the status quo. If they don't, they aren't a person of conscience and intellect. And I have no clue what you mean about being proactive in whatever field, rather than just being reactive once something has happened. Like I said, right out of the Jim Tressel press guide.

I'm not trying to say there's anything wrong with punk. I'm merely taking issue with the utter nonsense you say it means, as if punk could possibly have the corner market on such things. While I support your right to be a punk, I don't understand why somebody, anybody needs punk to affirm the things you've talked about.
Christianity. Islam. Hinduism. Anthropogenic Global Warming. All are matters of faith!
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Your Opinion On Punks/Gothics

Wed Apr 13, 2005 8:40 am

Can't stand 'em.

Almost as much as I hate hippies.

"Some aren't too bad"

That picture is WRONG.

I don't like anyone that defines themselves by the way they dress and/or apply makeup. It's usually a red flag that they are overcompensating for their complete lack of anything to offer society.

[Edited 2005-04-13 01:49:30]
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Your Opinion On Punks/Gothics

Wed Apr 13, 2005 8:45 am

And another thing...I love how punks/hippies/goths claim that they're trying to be "different" and "unique" and then they go and hang out with nothing but punks/hippies/goths all wearing the same stuff and the same makeup. Yeah, you in the dark trenchcoat with the dark circles around your eyes and the pocket chain, surrouded by ten other guys/girls in black trenchcoats and dark eyes...real unique! Reminds me of one of my favorite quotations:

"Remember that you are unique....just like everyone else."
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
Superfly
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RE: Your Opinion On Punks/Gothics

Wed Apr 13, 2005 9:14 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 41):
That picture is WRONG.

Hey I never said she was hot.  Smile
Bring back the Concorde
 
gigneil
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RE: Your Opinion On Punks/Gothics

Wed Apr 13, 2005 9:17 am

Does anyone here actually remember when U2 was punk?

N
 
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aerorobnz
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RE: Your Opinion On Punks/Gothics

Wed Apr 13, 2005 10:46 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 33):

Absolutely the opposite of the truth. They are relentlessly and passionately CONFORMIST> They work very hard at looking like what they label themselves to be. Most non-punk, non-goths don't put one tenth the thought into clothes and accessories.

I'm going on the 'Punks' I know, but we don't dress up in Punk tshirts and army boots all the time (I don't even have any piercings or tattoos and a practical haircut) it's is an image, but it doesn't matter what image we portray, as long as we aren't getting caught up in the endless pursuit of material gain the fashion industry personifies. Personally I prefer non-label/logo, non dyed natural fibres that I can wear for years regardless of trends and fashions until they wear out. I also like slogan T shirts and chunky boots, but I wear whatever I have clean at the time. I buy whatever the hell I like without feeling under pressure from either Punk or non Punk conformist fashion. That's the side of Punk you don't see since the media and fashion industries adopted the industrial Punk image as their stereotype of Punk Culture, and made it fashionable to make money. Quit judging us all by the media's image of what Punk should be.


Quoting ContnlEliteCMH (Reply 40):
Your hairstyle, your dress, the number of industrial bearings you wear in your earlobes, makeup, the music you listen to -- NONE of these things are about personal responsibility and accountability.

I agree, the person under that garb is what ultimately makes them a complete person, and that's what 'planespotting' was saying earlier, so like I said above quit with the media's stereotype, that's like saying that all homosexuals are hairdressers and own poodles called Fifi. The Punk culture stands for a secular, self governing anarchic society and surely that's exactly what having personal responsibility is all about? Being able to still choose wisely and responsibly for one's self without being restricted by unnecessary laws as dictated to our society from a centralised point of governance... There's no need for superficial laws regarding same-sex marriage, drugs, abortion and other laws that are just pointless restrictions of choice. Ultimately if someone chooses to partake in these it is their decision to make, and they have to live with the consequences be they good or bad.
I believe strongly that the laws in many countries these days do not create environments conducive to this. However I think the messages of the Anarcho-Punk movement promotes a 'live and die by the sword' attitude which is all about taking hold of your life, making responsible decisions in accordance with your beliefs and accepting that there are personal consequences to everything and that you have control of that yourself so it is you that is accountable for what happens in your own life (barring freakish events like murder and tsunami), not a government/deity or any other individual. Anyone can do this, Punk or otherwise. It's just that those within the movement are probably more inclined to realise that by themselves without the help of Dr Phil.

Quoting ContnlEliteCMH (Reply 40):
*Any* person of conscience and intellect questions the status quo. If they don't, they aren't a person of conscience and intellect.

That's true, and with a psychologist tested IQ of 164 I feel count myself and many of the people I associate with in the former rather than the latter category. It is surprising how little people of average intelligence actually question what is going on around them when they are living in their safe little 'white picket fence' environment unless they are actively encouraged to question everything like they are in the environment like the Punk Culture creates.
Pre-Punk societies rarely questioned anything that happened for long enough to provoke change, and if they did they were 'silenced' or persecuted by the powers that be. That's why the US had segregated amenities for so long and women didn't have the right to vote. All that change came about from dissent en masse (the crux of Punk Culture) and the conformist society we live in does not encourage that essential tool. That is why I have adopted much what the Anarcho-Punk movement involves, however I haven't adopted what I don't want to. It isn't a blanket ideology like many deity/government-centred ideologies that are all or nothing.

I don't think we will see eye to eye on this, but I'm just telling you what I perceive Punk Culture to be, and how diverse it actually is, rather than the limited the popular media perception, and indeed your own perception of it is. If you don't like it, it's no skin off my nose - I'm just the way I am and I don't care if you guys continue believing that it's all about angry kids, funny clothes and strange piercings Diversity of opinion is what it's all about, and is actually something we strive for.
Flown to 120 Airports in 44 Countries on 73 Operators. Visited 55 Countries and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.
 
planespotting
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RE: Your Opinion On Punks/Gothics

Wed Apr 13, 2005 11:39 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 33):
Absolutely the opposite of the truth. They are relentlessly and passionately CONFORMIST> They work very hard at looking like what they label themselves to be. Most non-punk, non-goths don't put one tenth the thought into clothes and accessories.

was slam click made fun of by goths/punks as a kid or something?


(a joke)
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F9Widebody
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RE: Your Opinion On Punks/Gothics

Wed Apr 13, 2005 11:52 am

I really don't have much of a problem with Goths or Punks. What annoys me are emo kids. Why would you buy girls pants? WHY?!?! That's just gross.

Quoting Copaair737 (Reply 21):
I mean shit, Relient K is all about religious nonsense. How punk is that? oh thats right, not very.

Their new CD really isn't very religious at all. You have to know they are religious and then the words take on a different meaning. They don't really claim to be Punk either. If you listen to some of their old CD's, you will really see what I mean. I would call them more Pop-Punk.

Regards

[Edited 2005-04-13 04:58:27]
YES URLS in signature!!!
 
ContnlEliteCMH
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RE: Your Opinion On Punks/Gothics

Wed Apr 13, 2005 11:56 am

Quoting Aerorobnz (Reply 45):
The Punk culture stands for a secular, self governing anarchic society and surely that's exactly what having personal responsibility is all about?

Since you ask, no. Secular, yes. Anarchy, no. I believe firmly in the rule of law, to the (natural) exclusion of anarchy or any other form of lawlessness. The rule of law has everything that your suggestion does not: a firm standard by which conduct and intent may be judged, complete with a system for due process and justice. You may spare me the nonsense about "yeah, but it makes mistakes" because mistakes are part of the human experience, regardless of the system of governance you choose.

But the law itself must be virtuous, being founded upon a democratic/republican/parliamentary form of government in which the will of the people is expressed at the ballot box and through elected officials. You can say I am merely quoting what I have been told, and doing so mindlessly, but that would deny the very evidence in front of you -- that my efforts to explain how wrong I think you are, are themselves evidence of thought.

Again, I am not into mystical garbage. Life need not be so amorphous with regard to societal conduct, when there is a viable, virtuous alternative: the rule of law.

Quoting Aerorobnz (Reply 45):
There's no need for superficial laws regarding same-sex marriage, drugs, abortion and other laws that are just pointless restrictions of choice.

Yes, there is. You and I must no doubt agree to disagree on this point. I'm wondering if you've ever had anybody just directly challenge this assertion by calling it a lie. The individual, and any group of individuals, create rules for conduct because *that is part of the human experience*, not because they have a desire to control everybody else. Methinks you allow your erroneous notion to rest upon a nonexistent polar choice, namely, that there is no middle ground between personal choice and complete authoritarian rule. Of course, there is. I live in a country where the middle ground is huge, and so do you. To say we don't is to tell more lies.

I wasn't using the media stereotype, as you accused. I was using the utterly cliche, meaningless nonsense you spouted to describe punk. So far you've said nothing to dissuade me from that point because you've not provided any persuasive evidence that punk is truly the best way for choice and responsibility. In fact, you go so far as to make ridiculous statements like this one:

Quoting Aerorobnz (Reply 45):
Pre-Punk societies rarely questioned anything that happened for long enough to provoke change, and if they did they were 'silenced' or persecuted by the powers that be. That's why the US had segregated amenities for so long and women didn't have the right to vote. All that change came about from dissent en masse (the crux of Punk Culture) and the conformist society we live in does not encourage that essential tool.

Don't tell me what your IQ is. It's irrelevant. Intelligence is no substitute for a keen study of history. Smarts are no substitute for wisdom and counsel. This statement is the best possible evidence of such possible divergence. There is so much evidence at your fingertips to make this statement total nonsense. Yet you ignore it.

You talk about the U.S... You mean, the very country whose founding fathers questioned taxation without representation, generally despised monarchistic rule and whimisical rule of law, and believed in religious freedom? You mean, the same country whose people went to war to defeat those oppressors, and then wrote a governing document whose brilliance shines even today as we still go to the ballot box to choose our governmental officials, write our laws, and even amend the highest law in the land?

You mean, the very country in which an unpopular President declared war upon itself to preserve a more perfect union? You mean, the same country whose brothers, fathers, and sons killed each other in that struggle, a struggle which ultimately led to the abolition of man enslaving his fellow man as property? You mean, the country in which that same unpopular President paid with his life for taking his stance?

You mean, the very country in which women were given the right of suffrage *without* bloodshed and revolution?

If you think Revolutionary America, Civil War America, or 20th century America was "punk," you might want to trade a few of your IQ points for some reading material. You'd be better off. I think your viewpoint is conceited, elitest, and just plain warped. You seem to support these silly notions with an unspoken assumption that non-punks (or people with whom you don't identify) are just stupid drones incapable of your thoughts or conscience, an appalling stance.

Mind you, that's just *one* country with a 250 year history. There are many, many other examples. To say that pre-punk didn't question, and force change, often through peaceful, legal means (read: rule of law) is just daft. Now, you can go back to your punk friends and show how right you must be right because some Yank persecuted you. I'm not assessing punk, but your words, and your thoughts.
Christianity. Islam. Hinduism. Anthropogenic Global Warming. All are matters of faith!
 
Lemmy
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RE: Your Opinion On Punks/Gothics

Wed Apr 13, 2005 12:29 pm

Quoting ContnlEliteCMH (Reply 48):
Methinks you allow your erroneous notion to rest upon a nonexistent polar choice

I was wondering if anything could be more pompous than telling people your "psychologist tested IQ," but that entire post answered my question.

Methinks? Huh?
I am a patient boy ...

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