AeroWesty
Topic Author
Posts: 19551
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 7:37 am

India-China New World Order

Tue Apr 12, 2005 12:44 pm

Interesting article from the Associated Press today commenting on the recent visit to India by Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao.
"India and China can together reshape the world order," Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh said after a welcome ceremony for his Chinese counterpart, Premier Wen Jiabao, at India's presidential palace.

Together the two nations account for one-third the world's population.

The statement announcing the partnership was signed by both premiers and said the agreement would promote diplomatic relations, economic ties and contribute to the two nations "jointly addressing global challenges and threats."

India-China relations have "acquired a global and strategic character," it said.

The Chinese premier was in India for a 4-day visit to create a strategic partnership to end border disputes and boost trade. During his visit to Bangalore, Wen said China and India can together lead the world in information technology.

More here: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...0050411/ap_on_re_as/india_china_10
International Homo of Mystery
 
Springbok747
Posts: 4007
Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2004 9:13 am

RE: India-China New World Order

Tue Apr 12, 2005 1:05 pm

Hmm...dunno about India being a "World order".

"India and China can together reshape the world order," Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh said after a welcome ceremony for his Chinese counterpart, Premier Wen Jiabao, at India's presidential palace.

How can a country that cannot even provide basic amenities (water, electricity etc) to it's population even think of reshaping the world?! They must learn to manage their own population first, then think of becoming any kind of world order.
אני תומך בישראל
 
mrniji
Posts: 5382
Joined: Sun Feb 29, 2004 11:51 am

RE: India-China New World Order

Tue Apr 12, 2005 6:33 pm

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 1):
How can a country that cannot even provide basic amenities (water, electricity etc) to it's population even think of reshaping the world?! They must learn to manage their own population first, then think of becoming any kind of world order.

Though I agree with the basic of your statement, executing external political power and having a huge economic capability is sufficient to challenge the present World Order.
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
User avatar
mighluss
Posts: 965
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2001 12:11 am

RE: India-China New World Order

Tue Apr 12, 2005 6:53 pm

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 1):
How can a country that cannot even provide basic amenities (water, electricity etc) to it's population even think of reshaping the world?!

We are having a very hard time in the chemical Industry, because is very difficult to compete with prices ofered by Chinese and Indian Industry.

How can they have such low prices? just because they have LOTS of workers, with very low salaries, and very few rights and Security/Prevention... just the opposite here! (well, I don't complain about my salary!)

Oh well... what can we do to keep prices somewhat low and (hardly) compete with them? Buying raw materials at very low prices... to who? you can guess!
Miquel.
 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 11:50 pm

RE: India-China New World Order

Tue Apr 12, 2005 11:47 pm

How can a country that cannot even provide basic amenities (water, electricity etc) to it's population even think of reshaping the world?

Well, neither has China as yet, but you can't argue that Chinese manufacturing capabilities haven't reshaped international commerce. India seems poised to do the same.

Remember that China still has 750 million really poor people, on par with India. The difference is that when you visit India, its all out in the open for you to see. The Chinese can prevent urban slums, India can't. Also, the Chinese are big on fantastic infrastructure, while India continues to lumber along with shoddy urban facilities, airports, etc.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
MSYtristar
Posts: 7543
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2005 12:52 am

RE: India-China New World Order

Wed Apr 13, 2005 1:06 am

A New World Order?

Perhaps Hollywood Hogan will be its leader.
 
FDXmech
Posts: 3219
Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2000 9:48 pm

RE: India-China New World Order

Wed Apr 13, 2005 9:52 am

But what is their world order? What does, say China, offer the world in idealogy that the world will flock to their point of view?
You're only as good as your last departure.
 
srbmod
Posts: 15446
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 1:32 pm

RE: India-China New World Order

Wed Apr 13, 2005 9:55 am

Well they sure have the most people in it. A few billion people isn't nothing to discount, plus the way US jobs are getting outsourced to the those countries, they hold a significant economic place in the world.
 
FDXmech
Posts: 3219
Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2000 9:48 pm

RE: India-China New World Order

Wed Apr 13, 2005 10:00 am

Yes, but haven't they historically had the most people? This is nothing new.

The outsourcing though is quite disturbing and you raise a good point. Are we helping bankroll our own demise? I think our population and government are realizing this fact now.
You're only as good as your last departure.
 
L.1011
Posts: 2164
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2001 7:46 am

RE: India-China New World Order

Wed Apr 13, 2005 10:19 am

The past 50 years have proven, with that bumbling fool Mao Zedong, that population is astoundingly irrelevent to world power. Hell look at the British. They controlled a quarter of the planet from an island the size of Wisconsin.
 
dl021
Posts: 10836
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 12:04 pm

RE: India-China New World Order

Wed Apr 13, 2005 11:17 am

Quoting Mighluss (Reply 3):
Oh well... what can we do to keep prices somewhat low and (hardly) compete with them? Buying raw materials at very low prices... to who? you can guess!

THey will begin to experience the same problems Japan did after a number of years, in that their workers will demand better conditions and better pay. They will lose the cost edge eventually and have to compete on quality. You will notice that Japan makes an incredible number of cars here now, and you will see much more of Chinas production staying home as their population begins to become better able to afford them.

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 4):
Remember that China still has 750 million really poor people, on par with India. The difference is that when you visit India, its all out in the open for you to see.

True, but most tourists don't get out to the uderdeveloped sections of the PRC as tourism is still tightly controlled there. Foreigners (foreign devils) may see the cities and the ancient archeological sites, but they generally aren't invited to see the poverty stricken areas where Chinas next revolution is probably going to pick up steam. They will have to answer the pressures being placed on them by a rapidly growing segment of their population that knows what the rest of the world has and will become less inclined to do without.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: India-China New World Order

Wed Apr 13, 2005 11:36 am

I´ve listened to an interesting report on BBC World Service radio a while ago. There it was said that while you can still hire an unskilled labourer in China for a pitance, e.g. a qualified engineer or scientist will demand more or less the same salary as his European or American counterpart.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
stealthpilot
Posts: 502
Joined: Tue May 11, 2004 4:28 am

RE: India-China New World Order

Wed Apr 13, 2005 11:41 am

"As tourism is still tightly controlled there."
I must agree. Even though there are millions and millions of foreigners visiting china every month, they usually aren’t free to go wherever they want and see what they like. I do credit the Chinese for knowing how to do things, we Indians need to learn a lot from them. I guess we’re content with our closed sense of moral advantage  Sad

"How can a country that cannot even provide basic amenities (water, electricity etc) to its population even think of reshaping the world?"
Make no mistake during my lifetime china will emerge as the world’s second superpower, one could even argue they will probably overtake America as the #1 power. True India and china have thousands of problems which won’t go away soon but we are talking decades from now. If anyone thinks it will happen in 10 year then  liar ....... but 100% in this lifetime.

"How can they have such low prices? Just because they have LOTS of workers, with very low salaries, and very few rights and Security/Prevention... just the opposite here"
Well the labor laws in India are a negative aspect if anything. Sure labour costs less and there are way too many of them (sadly) but they have rights. In fact they can’t be fired without government permission!

Anyway lets pleaseeeeeeee not start the outsourcing argument here!

-Nikhil
eP007
 
BarfBag
Posts: 2374
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2001 7:13 am

RE: India-China New World Order

Wed Apr 13, 2005 12:33 pm

Changing world orders can be in many ways. China and India already have an effect on how people far away choose to pursue careers (computers/IT etc becoming a bad career choice in US) or start businesses (cheap mass produced goods are a bad idea because of Indian/Chinese economies of scale). Both countries already contribute to very high profile angst-ridden discussions in wealthier and more established economic powers, whether its because of Chinese textiles or Indian call centers. We don't have to conquer the planet, or have everyone talk in Hindi/Mandarin. Those are vestiges of old colonial era globalization. Today's globalization works differently.

Trade between the two countries has grown near exponentially in the last few years, with India maintaining a $1 billion surplus in recent years:
2001-02: $2 billion
2002-03: $3.5 billion
2003-04: $7.6 billion
2004-05: $17 billion
I'm all for seeing it grow in the coming years; it can only result in the development and increased economic clout of both countries.
 
mdsh00
Posts: 3968
Joined: Mon May 17, 2004 11:28 am

RE: India-China New World Order

Wed Apr 13, 2005 2:58 pm

Quoting DL021 (Reply 10):
THey will begin to experience the same problems Japan did after a number of years, in that their workers will demand better conditions and better pay.

I hear this is already starting to happen in India somewhat. A friend of my father that was looking to employ some software engineers in India found that the average salary is rising so much that it's almost reaching the same salaries as hiring the programmer in the US. Some smaller companies are starting to look at Russia and Poland. However India has an advantage with an English speaking population. How it goes in the next few years? We'll see.
"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
 
mrniji
Posts: 5382
Joined: Sun Feb 29, 2004 11:51 am

RE: India-China New World Order

Wed Apr 13, 2005 4:29 pm

Quoting Mdsh00 (Reply 14):
A friend of my father that was looking to employ some software engineers in India found that the average salary is rising so much that it's almost reaching the same salaries as hiring the programmer in the US.

Really? How about additional costs to the salary (social costs) - is that a factor that makes India competitive again? How about labor laws India-US compared?

How about working timing? Is my assumption that the Indian software eng works more and harder correct, i.e. do they work more hrs/week and produce more output?
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
mdsh00
Posts: 3968
Joined: Mon May 17, 2004 11:28 am

RE: India-China New World Order

Wed Apr 13, 2005 5:16 pm

Quoting Mrniji (Reply 15):
Really? How about additional costs to the salary (social costs) - is that a factor that makes India competitive again? How about labor laws India-US compared?

How about working timing? Is my assumption that the Indian software eng works more and harder correct, i.e. do they work more hrs/week and produce more output?

Honestly I'm not too sure but it seems that based on what my dad (who is also in the tect feild) and his colleague say, that many Indian programmers are demanding much higher wages than they took before. Who knows, maybe competition with Russia will bring them back down again.
"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
 
User avatar
HAWK21M
Posts: 29867
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:05 pm

RE: India-China New World Order

Wed Apr 13, 2005 6:10 pm

Aviation salaries are still no where to the West.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
mrniji
Posts: 5382
Joined: Sun Feb 29, 2004 11:51 am

RE: India-China New World Order

Wed Apr 13, 2005 6:29 pm

Quoting Mdsh00 (Reply 16):
Who knows, maybe competition with Russia will bring them back down again.

Hopefully not.. it is their good right to have a decent salary, and competitiveness does not have to be perfect (i.e. based on price) everytime but can be imperfect (i.e. based on other factors as product superiority, better range etc), too... And we should not forget that the English language skills and the increasing availability of IT Experts make India a great destination!

Quite frankly, Manav, I doubt the information yopu received to be representative for the entire sector in India.. does anyone have reliable data on av salaries of IT profs in India and the US?
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
mdsh00
Posts: 3968
Joined: Mon May 17, 2004 11:28 am

RE: India-China New World Order

Wed Apr 13, 2005 6:41 pm

Quoting Mrniji (Reply 18):
Quite frankly, Manav, I doubt the information yopu received to be representative for the entire sector in India.. does anyone have reliable data on av salaries of IT profs in India and the US?

Here's some articles I've come across Subin:

on Global Pay Scales:
http://www.finfacts.com/biz10/globalworldpaysalaries2005.htm

About India possibly pricing itself out in the future:
http://insight.zdnet.co.uk/specials/...ourcing/0,39026381,39150917,00.htm

Not that I WANT that to happen, but definitely soemthing to think.
"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
 
FDXmech
Posts: 3219
Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2000 9:48 pm

RE: India-China New World Order

Thu Apr 14, 2005 5:13 am

>>>Changing world orders can be in many ways. China and India already have an effect on how people far away choose to pursue careers (computers/IT etc becoming a bad career choice in US<<<

A very telling statement. Computers/IT are or were supposed to be jobs of the future. Now corporate greed has sent these jobs packing.

If we lose our manufacturing and high tech, where does the wealth originate?
You're only as good as your last departure.
 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 11:50 pm

RE: India-China New World Order

Thu Apr 14, 2005 6:02 am

If we lose our manufacturing and high tech, where does the wealth originate?

THe US is still a generator of new ideas, inventions, etc. And there is still a high tech manufacturing base in the US.

Of course, this doesn't mean that other countries will not catch up.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
FDXmech
Posts: 3219
Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2000 9:48 pm

RE: India-China New World Order

Thu Apr 14, 2005 7:20 am

>>>THe US is still a generator of new ideas, inventions, etc. And there is still a high tech manufacturing base in the US.<<<

But many corporate honchos are willing to give this away to boost quarterly results. Our seedcorn is being sold at bargain basement prices. There are many in corporate America and the halls of government who think this is a good tradeoff. That lower prices at Walmart is preferable to producing goods and services here.

>>>Of course, this doesn't mean that other countries will not catch up.<<<

The catching up I can live with. It's the giving away I have a problem with.

[Edited 2005-04-14 00:23:36]
You're only as good as your last departure.
 
User avatar
yyz717
Posts: 15689
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 12:26 pm

RE: India-China New World Order

Thu Apr 14, 2005 8:01 am

India and China remain 3rd world countries, albeit with growing economies and PCI's. As they get wealther, they will start to experience the problems of Western nations, particularly demands for greater democracy, higher labour costs (and hence their own internal outsourcing), environmental costs, and such. These issues will start to dampen economic growth in due course.

Other factors could also derail these countries. Both India and China could be ripped apart by internal dissension at the regional level as different regions demand more autonomy, perhaps violently. Regional wars (with Pakistan and Taiwan) could also result in economic damage and collapse. India also faces a demographic time-bomb with population growth that is out of control, literally, which could keep India impoverished on a PCI basis forever.

Finally, even if India and China become markedly wealthier in real terms without these bumps in the road, the West will not keep still. The highest knowledge-based productivity, the best education and virtually all technological innovation remains securely in Western hands. The West will only continue to get richer and richer, whatever happens in India and China.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 11:50 pm

RE: India-China New World Order

Thu Apr 14, 2005 8:22 am

"India and China can together reshape the world order," Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh said

This is diplo-speak, but Barfbag has captured its essence very eloquently.

Of course, India loves to make grandiose statements. Yes, the streets of Mumbai are packed with new fancy cars, but they're also packed with wretched rural migrants who keep coming in droves. To give the world more multi-lateral in terms of economic power, and shift the epicenter of economic clout away from the US and those Western economies that are incubators of creativity, India will have to drastically change. There is a big difference between servicing US companies, and creating products and ideas within India (and not in the US by a person of Indian descent). But that day will eventually come.

The catching up I can live with. It's the giving away I have a problem with.

What exactly is being "given" away? I don't see Boeing giving away its trade secrets? Is Lockheed Martin giving away its satellite technology? No.

And most notably, India and China are now both signatories to the TRIPS agreement, which mandates enforcement of patents on pharmaceuticals, etc. Contrary to the whining of morose left wingers the world over, this development has been positive overall, because India has been protecting its own intellectual property and engendering new ideas rapidly since TRIPs became a certainty.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
User avatar
yyz717
Posts: 15689
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 12:26 pm

RE: India-China New World Order

Thu Apr 14, 2005 8:29 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 24):
Of course, India loves to make grandiose statements. Yes, the streets of Mumbai are packed with new fancy cars, but they're also packed with wretched rural migrants who keep coming in droves.

Exactly. That's why the very few Westerners who even paid attention to this India-China self-congratulatory summit will even care about the communiques that came out of it. It's alot of nonsense given their collective poverty.

As for outsourcing to India, it benefits both India and the US. The lower costs associated with outsourcing to India raise profits for the US company which raises the US stock price and results in more US investment. It's a win-win for everyone.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 11:50 pm

RE: India-China New World Order

Thu Apr 14, 2005 8:42 am

That's why the very few Westerners who even paid attention to this India-China self-congratulatory summit will even care about the communiques that came out of it

Perhaps.

But all it takes are 200 million rich Indians and Chinese to change things forever. And all it takes are 5 million newly trained Indians and Chinese to shift manufacturing or services almost entirely from a large high-wage European country. That is not enough to change the economic epicenter of the world away from the US, but it will cause tremors.

In any case, why is everyone so worried? If in the next 10 years, 100 million Indians and Chinese are hurled into the middle class as defined in their respective countries, the US and Europe stand to gain. Both China and India are ordering airplanes, medical equipment, telecomm technology, etc., from the West to serve their middle class. This will only grow in the next decade.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
User avatar
yyz717
Posts: 15689
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 12:26 pm

RE: India-China New World Order

Thu Apr 14, 2005 9:00 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 26):
But all it takes are 200 million rich Indians and Chinese to change things forever. And all it takes are 5 million newly trained Indians and Chinese to shift manufacturing or services almost entirely from a large high-wage European country. That is not enough to change the economic epicenter of the world away from the US, but it will cause tremors.

That's true. However, India and China will then have new challenges as their own labour costs threaten to push even those jobs offshore to other countries, perhaps Bangladesh or Viet Nam.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
mrniji
Posts: 5382
Joined: Sun Feb 29, 2004 11:51 am

RE: India-China New World Order

Thu Apr 14, 2005 1:10 pm

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 23):
India and China remain 3rd world countries, albeit with growing economies and PCI's. As they get wealther, they will start to experience the problems of Western nations, particularly demands for greater democracy

Demands for greater autonomy won't be a problem in India. If you do a system-analysis approach, one can argue taht India beats the West (especially the US and UK) by far in terms of democratic powerr (check and balances)

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 23):
India also faces a demographic time-bomb with population growth that is out of control, literally, which could keep India impoverished on a PCI basis forever.

We should add here sth that gets forgotten over and over: environmental degradation

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 25):
That's why the very few Westerners who even paid attention to this India-China self-congratulatory summit will even care about the communiques that came out of it. It's alot of nonsense given their collective poverty.

They better ought to care, as it takes, as Jaysit says, only a few of them to change the world order. The US will be able to keep its wealth, but Europe (especially continental) will be the looser of globalizationb..
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
airways1
Posts: 536
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 1999 3:05 am

RE: India-China New World Order

Thu Apr 14, 2005 1:25 pm

Quoting DL021 (Reply 10):
True, but most tourists don't get out to the uderdeveloped sections of the PRC as tourism is still tightly controlled there. Foreigners (foreign devils) may see the cities and the ancient archeological sites, but they generally aren't invited to see the poverty stricken areas where Chinas next revolution is probably going to pick up steam.

DL021, have you ever been to China? Can you name a single place in China that tourists aren't allowed to go for the reasons you mentioned?

The fact is, most tourist don't want to see the underdeveloped sections. In fact, whilst it is true that China has millions of very poor people, most of these people live in the countryside. The countryside is just full of fields, and there is not much visible evidence of a lack of development. A field is a field is a field, whichever country it is in.
 
mrniji
Posts: 5382
Joined: Sun Feb 29, 2004 11:51 am

RE: India-China New World Order

Thu Apr 14, 2005 1:30 pm

Quoting Airways1 (Reply 29):
The countryside is just full of fields, and there is not much visible evidence of a lack of development

While I agree with most of what you say: Does fields = agriculture mean automatically mean poor for you?? I think we need to come over the idea to measure poverty in terms of capital and industrialization
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
airways1
Posts: 536
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 1999 3:05 am

RE: India-China New World Order

Thu Apr 14, 2005 1:46 pm

Actually, Mrniji, I said in the countryside, there is not much visible evidence of a lack of development, meaning it is difficult to judge the level of development from appearance alone. So no, agriculture does not automatically mean poor.

Nevertheless, the reality of China is that there is a large disparity between income and living standards of the urban and rural population. So, in China at least, agriculture does tend to mean poor.
 
mrniji
Posts: 5382
Joined: Sun Feb 29, 2004 11:51 am

RE: India-China New World Order

Thu Apr 14, 2005 2:04 pm

Quoting Airways1 (Reply 31):
Actually, Mrniji, I said in the countryside, there is not much visible evidence of a lack of development, meaning it is difficult to judge the level of development from appearance alone

OK, sorry, my misunderstanding.. I fully agree  Wink
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
FDXmech
Posts: 3219
Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2000 9:48 pm

RE: India-China New World Order

Thu Apr 14, 2005 10:32 pm

I think the term, "A new world order", is being mistakenly interchanged with the term, "A new economic power".
You're only as good as your last departure.
 
FDXmech
Posts: 3219
Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2000 9:48 pm

RE: India-China New World Order

Fri Apr 15, 2005 2:17 am

Interesting interview with Lou Dobbs about overseas outsourcing.

http://www.motherjones.com/news/qa/2005/02/lou_dobbs.html
You're only as good as your last departure.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: afterburner, zanl188 and 16 guests