learpilot
Posts: 783
Joined: Thu May 10, 2001 11:07 am

Congratulations Soccer....

Wed Apr 13, 2005 8:21 am

You continue to show us that you're a sport of high class.  Yeah sure

Fans jeer Pope in Scotland

Goalie hit by lit flare
Heed our warnings or your future will be underpant free!
 
gkirk
Posts: 23346
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RE: Congratulations Soccer....

Wed Apr 13, 2005 8:23 am

Indeed the booing during the minutes silence was disgusting, but wasnt unexpected. No minutes silence should have been observed.
The flare hitting Dido was truly shokcing though
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
EGGD
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RE: Congratulations Soccer....

Wed Apr 13, 2005 8:27 am

Nobody ever said it was a game of high class. Mostly the sport is traditional a working class game, as apposed to rugby which was more for the public school boys. It's not a gentlemans game like Cricket, it's football and it appeals to all aspects of society, so at a football match you get a broad spectrum of people. Naturally in that spectrum you have trouble makers and this is where the trouble in the sport is inherent from.
 
Rj111
Posts: 3007
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:02 am

RE: Congratulations Soccer....

Wed Apr 13, 2005 8:29 am

The Pope loved football and used to be a very good goal keeper.

You can't blame all this stuff on the sport though. More the minority % of idiotic fans who support it. The are plenty of normal fans who don't need to act like idiots, such as myself.

Italy is quite reknown for its crowd trouble BTW.

[Edited 2005-04-13 01:31:16]
 
gkirk
Posts: 23346
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RE: Congratulations Soccer....

Wed Apr 13, 2005 8:31 am

Quoting RJ111 (Reply 3):
Italy is quite reknown for its crowd trouble mind BTW.

Indeed...I believe that Inter Milan should be banned from European competition, or at least be forced to play behind closed doors.
The Italians were trying to make even the English look good
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
bananaboy
Posts: 1466
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RE: Congratulations Soccer....

Wed Apr 13, 2005 8:33 am

What does this actually have to do with the game?

Truly terrible behaviour....

http://www.hooligansfootball.homestead.com/historyof.html

... hooliganism is a societal issue which manifests itself at, or uses football as its medium. Describing a football hooligan is like describing an alcoholic, there is no distinctive class divide and a thousand routes to the final destination.

Couldn't have put it better myself.

The way in which the mainly Catholic fans of Celtic are viewed by many Scottish fans is legendary. But let's remember that it was a small minority of those present.

I can't stand the violence associated with the game, and still struggle to understand fully why football has this reputation. It seems to attract the worst of society who then make the headlines and spoil the game for the vast majority of civilised, law-abiding, true fans.

Mark
All my life, I've been kissing, your top lip 'cause your bottom one's missing
 
dragon-wings
Posts: 3907
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RE: Congratulations Soccer....

Wed Apr 13, 2005 9:07 am

Why are fans allowed to bring flares into the stadium??
Don't give up don't ever give up - Jim Valvano
 
yooyoo
Posts: 5686
Joined: Wed Nov 26, 2003 5:01 am

RE: Congratulations Soccer....

Wed Apr 13, 2005 11:37 am

Quoting Dragon-wings (Reply 6):
Why are fans allowed to bring flares into the stadium??

The same reason Red Wing fans can bring live octopus to a home play off game.  Smile


Andreas  spin 
I am so smart, i am so smart... S-M-R-T... i mean S-M-A-R-T
 
KLbambie
Posts: 94
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RE: Congratulations Soccer....

Wed Apr 13, 2005 12:36 pm

I didn't see the Milan game last night but I have just read about what happened, an utter disgrace and Inter need to be punished for the action of their fans!
It is well known that Italy has had some problems in the past with football hooligans but then again what country doesn't (no I am not justifying it) unfortunately you are going to get idiots wherever you go in the world! When Scotland played Italy last month in Milan there was on point where it all kicked of in the home support. Expecting to see some silly Scotsman after one to many sherberts swinging his fists the TV footage shows Italians firing flares at each other  eyepopping ???

I agree with Kirkie on the minute silence thing, wasn't very well thought out and what happened, disgusting as it was, was unfortunately always going to happen.

Football and Religion together seem to bring out the worst in people  Sad

S.
 
UTA_flyinghigh
Posts: 6304
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2001 8:46 pm

RE: Congratulations Soccer....

Wed Apr 13, 2005 2:57 pm

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 1):
No minutes silence should have been observed.

I dreaded the day on which this would come, but unfortunately I agree with Kirkie on that one *shudder*

UTA  checkeredflag 
Fly to live, live to fly - Air France/KLM Flying Blue Platinum, BMI Diamond Club Gold, Emirates Skywards
 
Andreas
Posts: 5880
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2001 7:56 pm

RE: Congratulations Soccer....

Wed Apr 13, 2005 3:16 pm

Quoting UTA_flyinghigh (Reply 9):
I dreaded the day on which this would come, but unfortunately I agree with Kirkie on that one *shudder*

That's how it starts...and in a few days you'll be looking at sheep rather lovingly  Wink Big grin

Quoting BananaBoY (Reply 5):
why football has this reputation

It's not a reputation problem, it's history: Look at football history, the clubs were not only places where to play football, but places to hang out with your buddies drink beer or other "Scottish" drinks  Wink, get shit-faced, then clubber each other to shreds. Even better did it get in places where there were clubs that catered to certain parts of society: Catholics vs. Protestants, Germans vs. Turks, uppermiddle-class part of the town vs. working-class parts etc. Hooliganism and downright battles of the fans were imminent...and we're still far away from being civilised enough to leave that violence behind ( at least the Scots and other Brits are Wink Big grin).

Compare it to rap music and breakdancing...basically the old gang wars continued on a dance floor/behind a microphone, an attempt to get civilised...still, rap musicians kill each other on a regularly basis.

Bad as it is...if football were banned, it'd take 3 days or so for the Engelaenders and the Germans to declare war on each other, for the Scots to commit suicide and for the Italians to move back to Mama and bawl their heads off  Wink
I know it's only VfB but I like it!
 
WunalaYann
Posts: 2128
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2005 12:55 am

RE: Congratulations Soccer....

Wed Apr 13, 2005 4:59 pm

Quoting KLbambie (Reply 8):
football hooligans but then again what country doesn't

Scandinavia, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Japan, etc. Football/soccer may not be a major sport in these countries, but the equivalents (hockey in Scandinavia and Canada, AFL football/rugby league in Australia, rugby in NZ, etc.) are definitely less prone to hooliganism than soccer.

At least, it certainly never reaches the absolute lows of Italy, Russia, Turkey, Greece, Germany, the Netherlands, France, England (in the 70's and 80's) and the majority of Africa, South America and now China.

I do not believe in fatality, here. Make the police enforce the law, and things should be fine. English stadiums are incredibly safer now than they were 20 years ago.

 Smile

Cheers,

Y.
 
OYRJA
Posts: 2577
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 7:43 am

RE: Congratulations Soccer....

Wed Apr 13, 2005 5:18 pm

Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 11):
Scandinavia, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Japan, etc. Football/soccer may not be a major sport in these countries,

Scandinavia???? What are you talking about?`Football is the absolute favorite sport up here in all 3 countries.
 
UTA_flyinghigh
Posts: 6304
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RE: Congratulations Soccer....

Wed Apr 13, 2005 5:21 pm

Apparently it looks like the Milan result shall (...) stand.

UTA  checkeredflag 
Fly to live, live to fly - Air France/KLM Flying Blue Platinum, BMI Diamond Club Gold, Emirates Skywards
 
WunalaYann
Posts: 2128
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2005 12:55 am

RE: Congratulations Soccer....

Wed Apr 13, 2005 5:29 pm

Quoting OYRJA (Reply 12):
Scandinavia???? What are you talking about?`Football is the absolute favorite sport up here in all 3 countries.

Sorry, I really thought hockey was the major sport.  Smile Thank you for the info, it may be useful in future discussions on the subject.

Even better then, it just shows that the football + violence combo is not automatic, even when football is THE major sport. Which is good news as well, it gives reason for hope.

Cheers,

Y.
 
OYRJA
Posts: 2577
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 7:43 am

RE: Congratulations Soccer....

Wed Apr 13, 2005 5:31 pm

Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 14):
Sorry, I really thought hockey was the major sport. Thank you for the info, it may be useful in future discussions on the subject.

No probs man. Big grin
But Hockey is very popular in Sweden though. But Football is still #1 there  Smile But Denmark and Norway doesn't have the same kind of feelings for hockey like the Swedes.
 
WunalaYann
Posts: 2128
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2005 12:55 am

RE: Congratulations Soccer....

Wed Apr 13, 2005 5:35 pm

Quoting OYRJA (Reply 15):
But Hockey is very popular in Sweden though. But Football is still #1 there Smile But Denmark and Norway doesn't have the same kind of feelings for hockey like the Swedes.

And have you ever witnessed violence inside/outside of stadiums/arenas (not talking of hockey players dropping the gloves and entertaining the crowd, THAT is good!!!!) in some form reminiscent of hooliganism?

Cheers.
 
OYRJA
Posts: 2577
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 7:43 am

RE: Congratulations Soccer....

Wed Apr 13, 2005 5:38 pm

Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 16):
And have you ever witnessed violence inside/outside of stadiums/arenas (not talking of hockey players dropping the gloves and entertaining the crowd, THAT is good!!!!) in some form reminiscent of hooliganism?

I have witnessed hooligans 4 matches ago when AGF(Aarhus) was visiting and played against my favorite team Viborg FF. About 10-15 AGF fans went totally nuts.
 
WunalaYann
Posts: 2128
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2005 12:55 am

RE: Congratulations Soccer....

Wed Apr 13, 2005 5:41 pm

Ok, so there goes my "Scandinavia" argument.  sarcastic 

Still, when it's 10 to 15 people, you cannot really talk of mass violence (try 10000 to 15000 in Brazil). Anyway, I'm surprised...  Wink

Thanks for the info!

Cheers.
 
OYRJA
Posts: 2577
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 7:43 am

RE: Congratulations Soccer....

Wed Apr 13, 2005 5:47 pm

Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 18):
Still, when it's 10 to 15 people, you cannot really talk of mass violence (try 10000 to 15000 in Brazil). Anyway, I'm surprised...

Hehehe. I know that 10-15 persons doesn't saound like much. But I can guarantee you that they really can make some damage. And beat the crap out of people.
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 5434
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

RE: Congratulations Soccer....

Wed Apr 13, 2005 6:12 pm

Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 11):
Scandinavia, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Japan, etc. Football/soccer may not be a major sport in these countries, but the equivalents (hockey in Scandinavia and Canada, AFL football/rugby league in Australia, rugby in NZ, etc.) are definitely less prone to hooliganism than soccer.

Interesting observation. I agree with that. Here in the Czech Rep. hockey and football are about 50:50 as far as popularity.
Football hooliganism is a major problem, every game of the major clubs (Ostrava in particular, and of course both PRG teams - everyone hates Sparta Prague) requires police assistance in full riot gear. I think it's about time to let them play at empty stadiums. As a taxpayer who doesn't really care about footbol nor hooligans I don't see a reason to waste money of the police to guard these idiots.
On the other hand you don't see something like that in hockey - and if you do it's very rare minor fight between fans who get a little bit too excited about the game. It is definitely not a whole culture of violence, where the game itself is not of any interest and the stadium is just a stage for the main objective - a fight with the other "fans".
Tickets for hockey and football cost about the same, I can imagine the social background of the spectators will not be that much different from the football ones.
Could it be because there is more action on the ice and it is often sooo damn boring to watch a football game?

[Edited 2005-04-13 11:23:34]
 
FLYtoEGCC
Posts: 929
Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2004 7:56 am

RE: Congratulations Soccer....

Wed Apr 13, 2005 6:27 pm

Quoting Learpilot (Thread starter):
You continue to show us that you're a sport of high class.

The vast majority of us football supporters are decent, law-abiding people. While last night's scenes in Milan were, as people have already said here, absolutely disgraceful and shocking, it is thankfully a minority that behave in that manner. (Although admittedly it might not have looked like that from the TV pictures.)
Come fly with me, let's fly, let's fly away...
 
iakobos
Posts: 3255
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2003 6:22 pm

RE: Congratulations Soccer....

Wed Apr 13, 2005 6:39 pm

... hooliganism is a societal issue which manifests itself at, or uses football as its medium

I am an all-time neutral football fan and it happens I am in one of those "absolute low" leagues where hooliganism flourishes...and is not fighted.

Being incidentally a friend or relative of "persons in charge" at one of the local (1st division) clubs, I have a permanent invitation and I have used it rather often in the past.
A good friend also happens to be a plain clothes officer whom is always around stadiums (all sorts) when clashes are expected.
Finally, my local grocer runs the hardest of the hardcore fan club.
The loop is complete.

The persons..
Mostly young lowly educated "citizens" who (most) are struggling to make a living. Individually harmless guys.
Their weekly outing seems to be the only moment in their young lifes when they can release the anger and frustration accumulated during the week.

The place..
An open arena, with buddies and identifiable enemies will be the battlefield.
The event is prepared, carefully organized. Two to three hours before the game, the buddies meet in nearby cafés and start getting in the mood.
Twenty minutes before kick off they move in tribes to the stadium, they are loaded like Scots can be, spirits high, voices already broken by the loud warrior chants. Those who are still reasonably fit carry six-packs of 1.5L water bottles.(it is not for drinking though)
I have to leave my cigarette lighter at the police check at the entrance, but the hardcore fans know the tricks and the police just ask questions, they would not risk trying body search.

The referee
Always the lame duck and the unvoluntary ignition fuse.

What strikes me is that the clubs' own management do not want to clamp down on their hooligans. One would ask why ?
There is a sound logic in this, follow me.

Everyone who has experienced playing in front of a large crowd knows how it feels to be cheered, and knows the difference between playing at home or on someone else's tuf.
So, for the home team noisy fans are important and will reflect in their performance, does not matter if it comes from 70yr old fishermen or 20yr old dickheads, it happens that the second category is present and loud.
Loud local fans bring points and at the end of the season that translates into money, and it can vary between quite a lot of it or none. (tv contracts, champions league, uefa cup, intertotto cup, advertisement rates, sponsors interest, players value, memorabilia, etc....)

Nowadays, revenues from public attendance are pretty insignificant (here).
The costs of refurbishing the stadium every second week are just covered by the (discounted) season's subscription fees.
Fan's money is uninteresting, their loud presence is warmly welcomed.
Keeping the hardcore from entering the stadium is exactly like giving the guest team a one (or more) goal advantage. Who is the manager who wants this ?
 
Gman94
Posts: 1167
Joined: Fri May 28, 2004 2:56 am

RE: Congratulations Soccer....

Wed Apr 13, 2005 7:36 pm

Interesting article from the Guardian about the Italian Ultra's, scarry people.

http://football.guardian.co.uk/champ...8,1458483,00.html#article_continue
British Airways - The Way To Fly
 
KROC
Posts: 18919
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RE: Congratulations Soccer....

Wed Apr 13, 2005 7:37 pm

I love when Soccer backs up my point on why it sucks so much.
 
OYRJA
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Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 7:43 am

RE: Congratulations Soccer....

Wed Apr 13, 2005 7:40 pm

Quoting KROC (Reply 24):
I love when Soccer backs up my point on why it sucks so much.

You love when this happens don't you?  Wink hehehe
 
Thom@s
Posts: 11674
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RE: Congratulations Soccer....

Wed Apr 13, 2005 7:54 pm

KROC, what you saw were the hooligans going nuts. Not the football match. The game itself was quite entertaining up until it was abandoned. So the way I see it, the hooligans sucked, not the game.

Thom@s
"If guns don't kill people, people kill people - does that mean toasters don't toast toast, toast toast toast?"
 
Gman94
Posts: 1167
Joined: Fri May 28, 2004 2:56 am

RE: Congratulations Soccer....

Wed Apr 13, 2005 9:58 pm

Quoting KROC (Reply 24):
I love when Soccer backs up my point on why it sucks so much.

So when LA Lakers fans go on the rampage after winning the NBA title that means that all Basketball is infected hooligans and means that the enitre sport sucks. These people who cause trouble at football matches are in the minority and it is an insult to tar as all with the same brush. I might as well say that all Americans are ignorant of the world around them because of your blinkered view.
British Airways - The Way To Fly
 
LHMark
Posts: 7048
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2000 2:18 am

RE: Congratulations Soccer....

Wed Apr 13, 2005 10:07 pm

I have a real, live German coming to town for my wedding this summer. I'm going to take him to a soccer game here. The poor bastard won't even recognize it as soccer, but juist to be sure, I'll remove my car's roadside emergency kit.
"Sympathy is something that shouldn't be bestowed on the Yankees. Apparently it angers them." - Bob Feller
 
CPH-R
Posts: 6059
Joined: Thu May 03, 2001 5:19 pm

RE: Congratulations Soccer....

Wed Apr 13, 2005 10:07 pm

I can't really see the outrage here - Dida should have been smart enough to leave the goal area once the flares & bottles started flying. And you know you're going to have trouble when you want to have a minutes of silence at a game between a Protestant team & a Catholic team. Something the Danish FA learned last year, when some jackass decided to jump off the upper levels at a stadium. He was a fan of one of the most bitter rivals of my team, yet the Danish FA wanted US to spend a minutes of silence on him. It would have made much more sense if that minutes of silence had been held at his teams game instead of forcing it on the rest of us.
 
KROC
Posts: 18919
Joined: Mon May 08, 2000 11:19 am

RE: Congratulations Soccer....

Wed Apr 13, 2005 11:51 pm

The Lakers and the NBA suck too. And when they riot...I pile on them too.
 
spinzels
Posts: 332
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 11:00 pm

RE: Congratulations Soccer....

Thu Apr 14, 2005 12:31 am

Quoting KROC (Reply 24):
I love when Soccer backs up my point on why it sucks so much.

Yeah, we know you think it sucks. You’ve told us about twenty times in the past few weeks, and given the apparent inexhaustible amount of free time that you have on your hands, you will no doubt tell us twenty more times.

This violence is regrettable, relatively harmless and highly unusual. It is remarkable given that it happens in the safest, most peaceful countries in the world. Americans point to soccer violence the way Europeans point to US gun deaths. Of course a lot more people die from gun violence than soccer riots

The product on the pitch is still terrific. It has been a great CL season, and I’m only sorry that it is drawing to a close.
I've been to Paradise, but I've never been to me
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: Congratulations Soccer....

Thu Apr 14, 2005 1:01 am

Quoting KROC (Reply 24):
I love when Soccer backs up my point on why it sucks so much.

Was thinking that very thing when I heard about it.

Quoting Thom@s (Reply 26):
KROC, what you saw were the hooligans going nuts. Not the football match.

Maybe, but why is this apparently so common to soccer? It seems every week or so, there's a riot at a match. It's really embarrassing.

Quoting Gman94 (Reply 27):
So when LA Lakers fans go on the rampage after winning the NBA title that means that all Basketball is infected hooligans and means that the enitre sport sucks

You have a point, but with very few exceptions, the rampaging doesn't interrupt a game. The few times it has happened-the Pistons-Pacers game earlier this year, or at the bottle-fest a few years back with the Browns-Jaguars, it's news here because it IS so rare. That doesn't mean fights don't break out in the stands, they do-go to any Browns-Steelers game, and you'll know what I mean, but to the point of rioting and looting, as seems so common in that sport? Almost never.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
CactusA319
Posts: 2821
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2000 1:51 am

RE: Congratulations Soccer....

Thu Apr 14, 2005 1:26 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 32):
Maybe, but why is this apparently so common to soccer? It seems every week or so, there's a riot at a match. It's really embarrassing.

Not to defend the sport or anything but it is played on a larger scale than our American sports. Also there's a lot of national pride that goes into these matchups. In a lot of these cases, the game is between two countries that probably don't like each other much and the game is essentially the only channel these countries have of feeling superior (prime example: Mexico vs. the USA). And lastly, a lot of these fans simply don't know how to act. None of this is an excuse, but it helps to explain the soccer fan mentality.

Quoting Gman94 (Reply 27):
So when LA Lakers fans go on the rampage after winning the NBA title that means that all Basketball is infected hooligans and means that the enitre sport sucks.

No it means that city sucks  Wink Actually this kind of thing doesn't happen often, and it is extremely rare for games here in the US to be interruped because of fan misbehavior.
 
Banco
Posts: 14343
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2001 11:56 pm

RE: Congratulations Soccer....

Thu Apr 14, 2005 1:37 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 32):
It seems every week or so, there's a riot at a match. It's really embarrassing.

You need to continue that sentence with "...somewhere in the world" to give it a proper context.

We've done this before, but here are a couple of examples of the same kind of thing, to a greater or lesser extent in the US, taken from Google News in the last 24 hours:

http://www.timesrecord.com/website/m...5D3E005256FE20045BC7C?Opendocument

http://www.maysville-online.com/arti...05/04/12/sports/0000000004vols.txt

It's just that your media in the US likes to adopt a holier-than-thou attitude and pretend it nevr happens in the US, whilst trying to suggest it goes on at every single football match around the world. Neither is true.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
Gman94
Posts: 1167
Joined: Fri May 28, 2004 2:56 am

RE: Congratulations Soccer....

Thu Apr 14, 2005 2:21 am

Quoting CactusA319 (Reply 33):
Quoting Gman94 (Reply 27):
So when LA Lakers fans go on the rampage after winning the NBA title that means that all Basketball is infected hooligans and means that the enitre sport sucks.

No it means that city sucks Wink Actually this kind of thing doesn't happen often, and it is extremely rare for games here in the US to be interruped because of fan misbehavior.

Exactly if some mindless idiots go the rampage why do idiots like Kroc tar the whole footballing world with the same brush, it insults me and all other respectful fans. When American football or baseball become world sports as big as football, (sometime when hell freezes over) and then there are riots somewhere in the world we can come on and flame you guys and tar your sports with the same brush.
British Airways - The Way To Fly
 
mdsh00
Posts: 3968
Joined: Mon May 17, 2004 11:28 am

RE: Congratulations Soccer....

Thu Apr 14, 2005 2:27 am

Quoting Gman94 (Reply 27):
So when LA Lakers fans go on the rampage after winning the NBA title that means that all Basketball is infected hooligans and means that the enitre sport sucks.

That happened only the first time the Lakers one the championship in 2000. After that, precautions were taken. Like others said, games are rarely interrupted by hooliganism.
"Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a big fat white guy who is threatened by change."
 
spinzels
Posts: 332
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 11:00 pm

RE: Congratulations Soccer....

Thu Apr 14, 2005 10:24 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 32):
Quoting KROC (Reply 24):
I love when Soccer backs up my point on why it sucks so much.

Was thinking that very thing when I heard about it.

I would have said “diff’rent strokes for diff’rent folks”, but you’d rather say “soccer sucks”. You’re entitled.

You mention the Browns and Steelers, the athleticism of the NFL athlete is amazing (the men in the OL/DL are surely the 21st century's pankrations, par excellence ), but IMHO the NFL isn’t much of a spectator sport, rather I think it is something to do while you're getting drunk and/or fat. With the incessant interruptions and the fact that actual playing time is almost non-existent, there is always a chance to get another beer or a burger. Nothing wrong with drinking and eating--especially drinking, it just seems like there are better ways of partaking than while sitting in front of a so-called sporting event that is really mostly a sports talk show.

And then there is the financial extortion that the NFL brings with it-which drawfs the infrequent and spasmodic looting at a soccer match. The NFL, without even a trace of shame, demands that communities build expensive sport palaces at public expense or lose their team—even storied teams with long distinguished histories can be moved if a city fails to ask “how hi?” when the NFL says “jump”. So witness towns like Cleveland, or Pittsburgh with shrinking economies and tax bases, but sparing no expense to build elaborate sports facilities that are used to entertain a small percentage of the community’s citizens. Cleveland is pulling up the garbage cans off the streets, but doing its part to make sure that the county makes its bond payments to pay for a stadium that will be used, at most, twenty times a year.

By contrast, most European teams have to make do with very old facilities, in many cases fifty or even one-hundred years old. For example that soccer riot which occasioned this thread took place in the San Siro stadium, which is about eighty years old and is actually SHARED by two of the most popular clubs in Serie A. Imagine the Steelers and Browns (or even the Giants/Jets) sharing grounds? Public expenditure on sport stadiums is pretty much unheard of except for special cases (like the World Cup or Olympics) and even when it is paid for with public funds, the stadiums tend to be rather minimalist (e.g., Copenhagen’s Parken) not the pleasures places of the NFL with their “sky boxes”, valet parking, club seating, double-wide seats, gourmet meals, and cabernet wines--NFL fans must be remarkably effete creatures.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 32):
That doesn't mean fights don't break out in the stands, they do-go to any Browns-Steelers game, and you'll know what I mean, but to the point of rioting and looting.

In terms of looting and rioting, there was actually very little property damage at the match. And it doesn't surprise me that there isn’t much fighting at a NFL game; given their taste for gourmet meals and sophisticated wines, NFL fans are hardly likely to send flaming motorbikes off of the upper decks (as Inter fans once tried to do). They are far more likely to exchange tips on stocks (or moisturizers) than punches.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 32):
as seems so common in that sport? Almost never.

Actually, given the thousands of matches that occur every week throughout the world, looting is very uncommon . And besides, the extremely infrequent looting at a soccer match pales in comparison to the looting of the public purse by sports teams in the US.

[Edited 2005-04-14 15:34:01]
I've been to Paradise, but I've never been to me

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