rjpieces
Posts: 6849
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:58 am

Gay GI Who Got Purple Heart Wants To Serve Openly

Sat Apr 16, 2005 12:30 pm

http://www.chicagosuntimes.com/output/iraq/cst-nws-igay08.html

WASHINGTON -- An Army sergeant who was wounded in Iraq wants a chance to remain in the military as an openly gay soldier, a desire that's bringing him into conflict with the Pentagon's ''don't ask, don't tell'' policy.

Sgt. Robert Stout, 23, says he has not encountered trouble from fellow soldiers and would like to stay if not for the policy that permits gay men and women to serve only if they keep their sexual orientation a secret.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
theCoz
Posts: 3933
Joined: Mon Aug 16, 2004 11:06 am

RE: Gay GI Who Got Purple Heart Wants To Serve Openly

Sat Apr 16, 2005 12:49 pm

 
CORULEZ05
Posts: 1250
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2005 10:39 am

RE: Gay GI Who Got Purple Heart Wants To Serve Openly

Sat Apr 16, 2005 12:52 pm

Interestingly enough, I was just watching something about gay soldiers on 20/20. I do not understand what the big deal is about gay soldiers. Why does who they choose to have in bed affect or have anything to do with their ability to fight for our country? A sargeant on this show was talking about how being gay prevents bonds from developing between soldiers, also trust amongst them. I find that to be a load of crap if you ask me. Soldiers are concerned with their duty which is defend our country and could care less if the guy or girl next to him or her prefers to sleep with people of their same sex.
Fly jetBlue today!!!!!!!
 
ACDC8
Posts: 7182
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:56 pm

RE: Gay GI Who Got Purple Heart Wants To Serve Openly

Sat Apr 16, 2005 1:06 pm

Maybe it'll bring confusion into the ranks. You know, like if they're out on patrol and someone says "Watch your six!"  Big grin

Sorry, couldn't resist!

Cheers,
Patrick
A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
 
MD-90
Posts: 7835
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2000 12:45 pm

RE: Gay GI Who Got Purple Heart Wants To Serve Ope

Sat Apr 16, 2005 1:06 pm

I think that the "don't ask, don't tell" policy is asinine (but you shouldn't be surprised, since it's a product of the Clinton years), but I have an aquaintance who is a Marine and was recently in a situation with a gay Marine that was not cool, to say the least.

I'm not in the military, so I don't really have a dog in this fight (and ultimately, it's none of my business).

[edited a bit for language]

Oh yeah, i also got sexually molested by a gay marine, and it tore me apart that i didn't suspect a goddamn thing and fell into such a simple trap... I didn't get raped or buttfucked or anything like that. But i got sure as hell played for a fool and felt up... I felt so disgustingly grimy and... omg i just can't even describe how much my skin just crawled after that damaging experiance. I tried to write about it... trying to get such a... horror filled shudder rid from my body... off my chest... but the g**damn firewall settings here on base are a pain in the ass.

My skin still crawls when i think about it, and i then proceed to beat myself up over getting tricked like that... But i try my best to forget it ever happened.

The most i can really do is take satisfaction in the physical damage i did to the mutherf***er's facial features. Guy looks like he fell down a flight of stairs on his head... God it creeped me out so bad. This happened almost 2 weeks ago, and it still makes me feel totally disgusting whenever it crosses my mind.

Life is f***ed up, ya know that?

I've been seducing young girls into bed since i was 14. I never really expected some of those same simple slight of hand pushy, slow movin tricks would ever get used on me.

Well here's how it happened to me. Well, the short version.

Remember how i used to give out sensual massages for a while, taught a short class for a while and all that, got paid for sex with that hot stripper naomi as a result of it(she paid me like 40 bucks and a few favors in trade for a 2 hour sensual massage)? Well, this skinny black dude told me this story about how he was a proffesional masseuse, went to the classes, got the little piece of paper, all that. And he had been giving massages to a few of the female marines around the barracks. Well, supposedly he had an appointment with 5 of them in about 40min or so and he wondered if i would mind posing as a proffesional masseuse as well for these girls, meet some cute girls, maybe get laid, all that.

Well, i thought that idea was simply off the chain, badass. And confident in my skill, i was sure i could handle it based on my experiance with sensual massage. Well, he then created the doubt in me that a proffesional massage for like physical therapy or whatever was an entirely different prospect than that of a sensual massage. Well, i have never had a proffesional massage for a damn thing. Had my spine and joints popped several times at the chiro- clinic after a car accident, but that's it.

Well he then offered to do a quick 12-20 minute demonstration on me so i could pay attention and learn what to focus on and the proper strokes/techniques etc. Now i was kinda nervous about this, but he explained to me that both of his roommates and mine (all 4 are friends of mine) had already done this and were doing it too. So i submitted and said sure.

Well, the s.o.b. got a little feely. Rubbed my ass quite a bit longer than i was even close to comfortable with. And upon issued verbal warning he would get knocked the f*** out. I met mocking/childing comments like "you aren't very comfortable in your sexuality are you" and some other shit like that. Upon flipping over for the other side, he got a little to occupied in the crotch area. When his had touched a little... lets just say, that after being warned, he crossed a line, and a split second later his face quickly met (several times) with my fists, feet, knees, and elbows.

I didn't realize till after i had left with some buddies of mine and chain smoked about a pack of cigs (trying to calm down) that it finally sank into my skull just how damn well that mutherf***er manipulated and manuvered me into a place i had much better judgement than to ever find myself in.

Turns out, he pulled maybe a dozen of those sort of stunts in the past two weeks and a few captains and other officialls have started privately gathering testimony and evidence about the incidences. The Marines are a "Don't ask, Don't tell" policy on homosexuality. You can be homosexual and serve in the military. They watch your back, you watch theirs. Just keep it underwraps and don't grab anybody's ass. The second you do.... You're gone buddy. So me and my fellow DCA buddies are hoping to see him discharged at a very soon date. He's been pulling wierd shit a lot and it's just REALLY bad for moral. The guy's a damn sexual predator or something like that.

I think i ought to feel guilty or something for beating the hell outta this dude... But good god, it's the only comfort i can gather from the experiance, that i hurt him so effectively.... It made me feel more normal to see him walkin around with his eyes swelled shut and his face cut up. (he refused to tell how he got hurt when asked. Probably scared they would find out the whole story and prosecute him or something...)

Anyways, it's over. I'm tryin my best to act like it never happened. And hopefully, in a year or two... Maybe i'll in fact forget that it ever did.

God it grossed me out so bad....



What was amusing to me is that the guy who wrote this account I know has gotten laid with more than a few girls, but at least it was consensual. And if you think that this guy is another Matthew Shepherd, remember that this involved US Marines: They're not the same kind of people as you and I. It doesn't really surprise me that he snapped like that.
 
JUANR
Posts: 837
Joined: Wed Dec 13, 2000 12:37 am

RE: Gay GI Who Got Purple Heart Wants To Serve Openly

Sat Apr 16, 2005 2:44 pm

In my country gays Constitutionaly has the right to be part of the armed forces openly, I can't understand how in the country of freedom it can't be possible.

Juan
SKBO
Bogotá: 2600 Metros Más Cerca De Las Estrellas; Vamos por los XVII Juegos Nacionales!!!!!!!!!
 
SFOMEX
Posts: 1602
Joined: Sat Dec 04, 2004 8:55 am

RE: Gay GI Who Got Purple Heart Wants To Serve Openly

Sat Apr 16, 2005 2:44 pm

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 3):
I've been seducing young girls into bed since i was 14.

I'm sure the US Marine Corps is proud of having this person on its ranks. worried 
The only thing worst than the GOP is the Democratic Party, think about it!
 
MD-90
Posts: 7835
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2000 12:45 pm

RE: Gay GI Who Got Purple Heart Wants To Serve Openly

Sat Apr 16, 2005 2:50 pm

Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 6):
I'm sure the US Marine Corps is proud of having this person on its ranks.

Surely you don't find this surprising?
 
KyleLosAngeles
Posts: 206
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2004 5:56 am

RE: Gay GI Who Got Purple Heart Wants To Serve Openly

Sun Apr 17, 2005 4:08 pm

MD-90,

The guy that wrote that is not telling the entire story. There are some obvious details missing.

He feels bad. So he needs to reconstruct history in a way to support the way he feels now.

AND, he's way too upset about it. If he is a straight Marine as he claims, he was never in danger or at risk. So the retroactive fear, anger and paranoia is very exaggerated and misplaced.

It really makes me wonder why.
Happy 2006
 
DLKAPA
Posts: 7962
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2003 10:37 am

RE: Gay GI Who Got Purple Heart Wants To Serve Openly

Sun Apr 17, 2005 4:31 pm

Quoting MD-90 (Reply 4):
(but you shouldn't be surprised, since it's a product of the Clinton years)

Good god you can turn anything into a "blame Clinton" fest, cant you?
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
ACDC8
Posts: 7182
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:56 pm

RE: Gay GI Who Got Purple Heart Wants To Serve Openly

Sun Apr 17, 2005 4:36 pm

Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 6):
Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 3):
I've been seducing young girls into bed since i was 14.

I'm sure the US Marine Corps is proud of having this person on its ranks

What the hell??!!  Confused I never said anything like that!
A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
 
senorcarnival
Posts: 1732
Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2005 4:05 am

RE: Gay GI Who Got Purple Heart Wants To Serve Ope

Sun Apr 17, 2005 4:36 pm

My best friend was in the Marines for four years, almost 6 months of that on a ship with the occasional docking. Anyway, the story goes: his buddy started waking up with some slight bleeding from his, ahem, anal cavity and went to the infirmary and they couldn't exactly diagnose anything. Long story short, turns out what happened was that his roommate was rubbing this guy's pillow with some sort of strong smelling fluid (I wanna say it was ether), so this guy would literally pass out when he went to bed and his roommate would take advantage of him.
Moral of the story is, there are a few bad apples that will do things like this or that other story above, but to assume that every gay GI will try to get in their fellow GI's pants therefore banning them from serving is simply ridiculous. There's a time and place for you to get your groove on, regardless of sexual orientation, and while you're on duty isn't really the most appropriate time, but what you do on your leave is your business...
Oh no, she's getting impatient! Take a stab at it!
 
KyleLosAngeles
Posts: 206
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2004 5:56 am

RE: Gay GI Who Got Purple Heart Wants To Serve Openly

Mon Apr 18, 2005 12:46 am

Quoting Senorcarnival (Reply 11):
so this guy would literally pass out when he went to bed and his roommate would take advantage of him

Again, this is someone's wildly concocted story to try and make a consentual romp sound like rape, after the fact. It is amazing the crazy things that people will make up once the guilt sets in.
Happy 2006
 
senorcarnival
Posts: 1732
Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2005 4:05 am

RE: Gay GI Who Got Purple Heart Wants To Serve Openly

Mon Apr 18, 2005 1:35 am

Quoting KyleLosAngeles (Reply 12):
Again, this is someone's wildly concocted story to try and make a consentual romp sound like rape, after the fact. It is amazing the crazy things that people will make up once the guilt sets in.

Could be, who knows, my source is reliable. Whether my source's source is reliable, I really don't know and when you start talking about source's source, it becomes much like a game of telelphone. In the end, the phrase, your mom's dog is ugly, becomes your dad's cat is pretty.
However, that still doesn't change my bottom line, fiction or not, there's a time and place to get laid.
Oh no, she's getting impatient! Take a stab at it!
 
UH60FtRucker
Posts: 3252
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:15 am

RE: Gay GI Who Got Purple Heart Wants To Serve Openly

Mon Apr 18, 2005 1:38 am

Quoting KyleLosAngeles (Reply 12):
Again, this is someone's wildly concocted story to try and make a consentual romp sound like rape, after the fact. It is amazing the crazy things that people will make up once the guilt sets in.

Why don't you believe some of this stuff happens? There is no shortage of cases where male soldiers take advantage of female soldiers, and some of their tactics were pretty unique. Why can't a guy do the same thing, but just to another guy? The point is, there are just some sick people out there who find a thrill in preying on people... both straights and gays.

Personally, I do not have any issue with what any of my fellow soldiers' sexual preferences are. However, if I made an unwanted pass at one of my female soldiers, I'd be disciplined. It should be no different for gays hitting on guys. We're here to do our duty. It's our job. The armed forces is not Match-Maker, we're not here to find you a life partner. What, and who, you do on liberty is your own business, but it has no place for your duty life. Plain and simple.

-UH60
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
adam
Posts: 456
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2005 11:45 pm

RE: Gay GI Who Got Purple Heart Wants To Serve Ope

Mon Apr 18, 2005 2:20 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 14):
Why don't you believe some of this stuff happens? There is no shortage of cases where male soldiers take advantage of female soldiers, and some of their tactics were pretty unique. Why can't a guy do the same thing, but just to another guy? The point is, there are just some sick people out there who find a thrill in preying on people... both straights and gays.

You're right UH60...whether it's homosexual or heterosexual rape, that calls for some discipline.

I posted a topic on here a while ago about the cost of discharging gay servicemen and woman, it was amazing, I was absolutely shocked. Here it is:

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/non_aviation/read.main/792483

I'm not in the military, so I can't exactly comment on details, but why have we spent $200 million dollars keeping people from protecting us as citizens? In theory "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" works, but can anyone in the military comment on whether it's harder to perform your duties along side other personnel if your constantly keeping that inside?

Adam
Texas: You'll come for the Alamo, You'll stay because you were wrongfully executed. - Conan O'Brian State Quarters
 
soups
Posts: 3220
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2004 6:41 pm

RE: Gay GI Who Got Purple Heart Wants To Serve Openly

Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:10 am

i don't see whay a person sexuality should affect them if they want to join the army.. sorry you cant join the army you are gay isnt that discrimination?
Next destinations, Suarabaya, beirut, paris, Accra
 
MD-90
Posts: 7835
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2000 12:45 pm

RE: Gay GI Who Got Purple Heart Wants To Serve Ope

Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:52 am

Quoting KyleLosAngeles (Reply 8):
If he is a straight Marine as he claims, he was never in danger or at risk.

I wouldn't want some guy touching my dick. It's gross for someone who isn't gay, in case you're not aware of that.

Quoting DLKAPA (Reply 9):
Good god you can turn anything into a "blame Clinton" fest, cant you?

Naw, I just did that to get a rise out of y'all. The Pentagon makes enough dumb decisions for that to be enacted during any president's term.
 
OttoPylit
Posts: 2259
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2003 10:58 am

RE: Gay GI Who Got Purple Heart Wants To Serve Openly

Mon Apr 18, 2005 6:07 am

Kinda reminds me of a Mad Magazine cartoon I once saw about the "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy. It had 60 minutes reporter Ed Wallace interviewing Rush Limbaugh, and they asked him his thoughts on gays in the military.

EW:"So Rush, whats your take on gays in the military?"

RL: "I think there is a place for gays in the military, as target practice."

EW: "But doesn't it make you feel good to know that there may be a gay man standing between you and the enemy?"

RL: "It makes me feel a lot better than if he was standing behind me, I'll tell you that."

EW: "So you don't support gays in the military?"

RL: "I'll just say that if I am in a foxhole with another guy, I want to be sure we are both concerned about saving each others life, not about whether he thinks my ass looks good in a Speedo."


It was just a comic, but it was pretty darn hilarious.  biggrin 
I don't have a microwave, but I do have a clock that occasionally cooks shit.
 
KyleLosAngeles
Posts: 206
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2004 5:56 am

RE: Gay GI Who Got Purple Heart Wants To Serve Openly

Mon Apr 18, 2005 6:57 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 14):
Why don't you believe some of this stuff happens?

I do believe that situations happen all the time where one guy expresses an interest and the other guy may not feel the same way. That's no big deal. It happens in the military, and it happens in the civilian world every day. Simply say "no thanks" and move on.

What I don't believe are the overly-dramatized accounts of being 'gassed' and sodomized while in an unconscious state only to awaken and learn about it the next morning.

In one story above, the alleged 'victim' volunteered to receive a demonstration of his attacker's "proper stroking techniques". Assuming that you are straight, how often do you volunteer to put yourself in the same sort of situation? Probably never.

The guy's emotional ranting ("God it grossed me out so bad....") was so repetitive that it really makes me wonder what the real motivation is for telling the story in the first place.

I don't know the guy, but it fits a classic case of someone who is very insecure with their own sexuality wanting to use a story like this to convince himself how straight he is.

The 2nd most likely scenario is that he likes to tell this story as a backhanded way of letting others know that he thinks of himself as irresistable, and enjoys painting a picture of others not being able to keep their hands off of him.
Happy 2006
 
KyleLosAngeles
Posts: 206
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2004 5:56 am

RE: Gay GI Who Got Purple Heart Wants To Serve Openly

Mon Apr 18, 2005 7:10 am

Quoting MD-90 (Reply 17):
wouldn't want some guy touching my dick. It's gross for someone who isn't gay, in case you're not aware of that.

Don't play insulting games with your subtle implications (" .. in case you're not aware .. "). It is a stupid and transparent attempt to insult me.

I am totally aware. And I don't want anyone touching my anything unless I have invited it.

My point is that people do not usually end up in situations where such things happen without some knowledge of what they are getting into.

It is annoying to see gay men portrayed as such addictive predators who cannot help themselves. It is also annoying to see these allegedly straight guys portrayed as such naive victims.

We're talking about roommates here. Don't you think two roommates would have a general idea of each others sexuality - and the corresponding limits?

Have you ever had a roommate? If so, did you think of each other as sexually 'experimental', or did you have a reasonably good idea that you were both straight - and not interested in fooling around?

People who find themselves being fondled in the middle of the night almost always have SOME responsibility in the events leading up to it.

People who never find themselves in that situation can also take responsibility for that as well.

You reap what you sew.
Happy 2006
 
flybyguy
Posts: 1415
Joined: Sun Jun 27, 2004 12:52 pm

RE: Gay GI Who Got Purple Heart Wants To Serve Openly

Mon Apr 18, 2005 7:20 am

Quoting Soups (Reply 16):
i don't see whay a person sexuality should affect them if they want to join the army.. sorry you cant join the army you are gay isnt that discrimination?

I don't think the military is an appropriate place for men who are gay as well as women who are straight. I can only imagine the things that sex starved men sequestered in duty would say or do to the lone female soldier in their battalion. As for gay men in the military, it is like putting a straight man in a club with all of the fittest, best looking women in the country. In that sort of situation you are asking for trouble.
"Are you a pretender... or a thoroughbred?!" - Professor Matt Miller
 
misbeehavin
Posts: 607
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 3:49 am

RE: Gay GI Who Got Purple Heart Wants To Serve Openly

Mon Apr 18, 2005 7:35 am

Quoting Flybyguy (Reply 21):
As for gay men in the military, it is like putting a straight man in a club with all of the fittest, best looking women in the country. In that sort of situation you are asking for trouble.

Wow! For sure, the military has some good lookers in it, but the Chippendales it ain't!

Besides, if your theory were true, then something's wrong with American military men, because the Forces in the rest of the Western world have encountered no such problems.
 
bananaboy
Posts: 1466
Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2004 6:58 am

RE: Gay GI Who Got Purple Heart Wants To Serve Openly

Mon Apr 18, 2005 7:36 am

Quoting Flybyguy (Reply 21):
As for gay men in the military, it is like putting a straight man in a club with all of the fittest, best looking women in the country. In that sort of situation you are asking for trouble.

You may be looking for sex in a club, but if you follow that logic, then surely you wouldn't, as you put it, have the fittest, best looking women in the country allowed to work in an office with straight men.

Mark
All my life, I've been kissing, your top lip 'cause your bottom one's missing
 
adam
Posts: 456
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2005 11:45 pm

RE: Gay GI Who Got Purple Heart Wants To Serve Openly

Mon Apr 18, 2005 7:45 am

Is anyone looking at the money aspect? 200 million for just 10,000 people?
Texas: You'll come for the Alamo, You'll stay because you were wrongfully executed. - Conan O'Brian State Quarters
 
UH60FtRucker
Posts: 3252
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:15 am

RE: Gay GI Who Got Purple Heart Wants To Serve Openly

Mon Apr 18, 2005 8:06 am

Quoting KyleLosAngeles (Reply 19):

In one story above, the alleged 'victim' volunteered to receive a demonstration of his attacker's "proper stroking techniques". Assuming that you are straight, how often do you volunteer to put yourself in the same sort of situation? Probably never.

Actually you're playing right into what the APA (American Psychology Association) is critical of our society for. This is what the APA writes:

"Like many female rape victims, men too are reluctant to alert the authorities, health officials, or even family and friends. By acknowledging rape, a man is "admitting that he was weak and powerless," which is a taboo in a society in which men are expected to defend themselves.

Moreover, male rape can be so humiliating, it makes victims question their own sexual identity. This questioning can be attributed to not only social pressure for men to be strong, but from common stereotypes of homosexuals being weak and effeminate. While the social taboos and stereotypes should be discredited, the victim’s own feelings should not. These are true feelings that should be discussed and overcome. If the victim is homosexual, he may believe he has no credibility, as counselors and psychiatrists can testify, male rape victims can suffer the doubts of others, even from those close to them. Common belief would have us sincerely hope that significant others and family would trust the victim and offer support, but, in most cases, the victims are blamed and, sadly, will often hear, "You must have wanted it in some way."

Attitudes toward male rape today are the same as they were for women 20 years ago."


KyleLosAngeles, I think your doubt of the man in MD90's post is just as wrong as how many men doubt women who admit to being raped. Like the APA says, those are attitudes from 20 years ago, and really don't have a place in today's world. Hell, the APA got you to a “T” with the remark that far too often ignorant people will attack the victim by saying, “you must have wanted it in some way.”

-UH60
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
UH60FtRucker
Posts: 3252
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:15 am

RE: Gay GI Who Got Purple Heart Wants To Serve Ope

Mon Apr 18, 2005 8:14 am

Quoting Flybyguy (Reply 21):
I don't think the military is an appropriate place for men who are gay as well as women who are straight. I can only imagine the things that sex starved men sequestered in duty would say or do to the lone female soldier in their battalion. As for gay men in the military, it is like putting a straight man in a club with all of the fittest, best looking women in the country. In that sort of situation you are asking for trouble.

I have to disagree with you here. We're the most well trained forces in the world. We're here to do our job, and to do it professionally. This is my job, and I am here to complete my duty... not hit it off with the hottest female soldier next to me. If a male soldier does not have the will power to resist hooking up with a female soldier, then he does not make a very good soldier.

This is why we have leave/liberty... so that we can go out and... shake hands with women.  Wink

When I am on a mission with a female sitting next to me, as a officer in the US Army, I sure as hell better be focusing on the mission and not her. It's just something the Army is good at drilling into your head - professionalism and duty.

-UH60
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
KyleLosAngeles
Posts: 206
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2004 5:56 am

RE: Gay GI Who Got Purple Heart Wants To Serve Openly

Mon Apr 18, 2005 8:20 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 25):
KyleLosAngeles, I think your doubt of the man in MD90's post is just as wrong as how many men doubt women who admit to being raped. Like the APA says, those are attitudes from 20 years ago, and really don't have a place in today's world. Hell, the APA got you to a “T” with the remark that far too often ignorant people will attack the victim by saying, “you must have wanted it in some way.”

 Smile  Smile

UH60F ... you know not who you are speaking to. I have an affiliation with the APA, for one thing. I invite you to get to know me a bit before you start questioning my credentials.

There are a few people here who may benefit from your cut and paste attempt at documentable research - but I am not one of them.

Now - for the my point that you are refusing to understand - and have attempted to hijack into something else:

I do not think that rape victims must have 'wanted' it. I think that rape is as serious of a crime as there is. I know two people in my life who are rape victims, and I know their history and feelings on this subject very well.

My entire point is about young men who are sexually 'uncertain', who put themselves knowingly into homoerotic situations and then later portray themselves as innocent and naive and claim to be outraged.

There IS such a pattern in human nature. If you don't agree with THAT point, then fine. But don't try to reconstruct my views into something stupid and unrecognizable to make it easier for you disagree with.

You can disagree without being dishonest in your approach.
Happy 2006
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: Gay GI Who Got Purple Heart Wants To Serve Openly

Mon Apr 18, 2005 8:33 am

Quoting Flybyguy (Reply 21):
I don't think the military is an appropriate place for men who are gay as well as women who are straight. I can only imagine the things that sex starved men sequestered in duty would say or do to the lone female soldier in their battalion. As for gay men in the military, it is like putting a straight man in a club with all of the fittest, best looking women in the country. In that sort of situation you are asking for trouble.

I rather stayed out of this thread, until now, I think a few comments from someone that spent half their life in a uniform might be necessary.

First, my personal feelings.

I dont' give a hoot in hell who you love, sleep with, don't sleep with whatever, when you're off the clock and on your own and at home, vacation, etc. Not my business . . . only yours. As long as you perform your duties when you're on duty, who the hell am I to tell you about your personal life. One young lady on my staff in DC preferred women. Great by me, who cares. She was an awesome soldier, and did an awesome job.

As for Flyby's comments about Gay Men. Same thing. Who the hell cares. As long as that man soldiers I don't care. If he can hump that 120mm Smooth Bore Cannon Round into the Gun Tube on that tank in 2 seconds or less I could care less which direction his sexual preference takes him. SO what.

By the by, I've been in combat. I don't recall anyone ever freaking out when the bullets were flying because Tommy might be gay. What they were worried about was getting killed, not Tommy's sexual preference!

As for straight women in the military (or lesbian for that matter), again, it doesn't matter to me. Had women under my command, and as far as I'm concerned, they were soldier FIRST, women second. I had to play all the silly gender games (billeting, etc), but otherwise they (my troops) all got the same treatment - give it to them straight and dirty and give no quarter.

Never, ever had any trouble with gay or lesbian men/women, or straight men and women or any combination thereof. Stay within the boundries of the Uniform Code of Military Justice and everything is just fine.

Continue to soldier and there won't be a problem.

I appreciate your opinion Flybyguy, but, based on my experience, 24 years worth, your theories don't hold water my friend.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
UH60FtRucker
Posts: 3252
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:15 am

RE: Gay GI Who Got Purple Heart Wants To Serve Ope

Mon Apr 18, 2005 9:58 am

Quoting KyleLosAngeles (Reply 8):

AND, he's way too upset about it. If he is a straight Marine as he claims, he was never in danger or at risk. So the retroactive fear, anger and paranoia is very exaggerated and misplaced.

Your trust in person who is claiming rape is just so apparent in that quote.

Quoting KyleLosAngeles (Reply 27):
I know two people in my life who are rape victims, and I know their history and feelings on this subject very well.

When they told you their stories, did you tell them that you knew 'they're weren't telling the whole story?' Did you tell them that they were obviously, "feeling bad. So they needed to reconstruct history in a way to support the way they feel now?" You'd make one hell of a counselor... not to mention one hell of a friend!

-UH60
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
KyleLosAngeles
Posts: 206
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2004 5:56 am

RE: Gay GI Who Got Purple Heart Wants To Serve Openly

Mon Apr 18, 2005 11:43 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 29):
You'd make one hell of a counselor... not to mention one hell of a friend!

Actually I agree with you. I WOULD make one hell of a counselor.

And yes, I know the full stories of my friend's situations. So fair and understanding of you to suspect otherwise.

MD-90 described the alleged victim as an 'acquaintance'. SenorCarnival described the alleged victim as a 'friend's buddy'. First hand account? You be the judge - since you are well on your way to that anyway.


Have you examined this hostility you harbor? How does it play itself out in your everyday life? Is it serving you well?

You seem to believe that the mere mention of rape is a guarantee that it did occur.

And you have consistently ignored my attempts to discuss the psychological probability of some men to have a severe emotional crisis due to internalized homophobia.

You'be been so busy diagnosing my "narrow-mindedness" that you cannot even see the fact that it is ME who is exploring all possiblities rather than picking the quickest one and running with it.

Furthermore, as a military guy you seem to be hell bent on insisting that if a guy says he was raped (especially if he is in the military) then there is no possible way he might be dealing with very strong feelings of guilt over something that may have been less than rape.

That, in itself, is a form of internalized homophia coming from you.







Quoting Senorcarnival (Reply 11):
Anyway, the story goes: his buddy started waking up with some slight bleeding from his, ahem, anal cavity and went to the infirmary and they couldn't exactly diagnose anything.


Do you really think rape is that hard to diagnose?
Happy 2006
 
MD-90
Posts: 7835
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2000 12:45 pm

RE: Gay GI Who Got Purple Heart Wants To Serve Ope

Mon Apr 18, 2005 12:24 pm

Quoting KyleLosAngeles (Reply 19):
In one story above, the alleged 'victim' volunteered to receive a demonstration of his attacker's "proper stroking techniques".

What masseuse touches someone's crotch when he's giving a massage?

Quoting KyleLosAngeles (Reply 30):
MD-90 described the alleged victim as an 'acquaintance'.

We were friends when we lived on the same floor of the same dorm our freshman year (2 years ago). I haven't seen him or talked to him in person for about a year, however.


KyleLosAngeles, you come across as someone who is gay and refuses to accept that sometimes, gays act inappropriately in a sexual manner.
 
KyleLosAngeles
Posts: 206
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2004 5:56 am

RE: Gay GI Who Got Purple Heart Wants To Serve Openly

Mon Apr 18, 2005 12:45 pm

Quoting MD-90 (Reply 31):
KyleLosAngeles, you come across as someone who is gay and refuses to accept that sometimes, gays act inappropriately in a sexual manner.

Wow - that's pretty deep judgement, don't you think? How exactly do you think that YOU come across?

I think that gay and straight people both have the potential to act sexually inappropriate at any given time. I don't think it happens any more or less often with gay people, and I don't think it is any more or less serious when it happens.

What I think is very revealing is your obsession with calling other people gay, and then generalizing on their sexual behavior.
Happy 2006
 
Shawn Patrick
Posts: 2465
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2000 7:30 am

RE: Gay GI Who Got Purple Heart Wants To Serve Openly

Mon Apr 18, 2005 2:11 pm

Quoting Adam (Reply 24):
Is anyone looking at the money aspect? 200 million for just 10,000 people?

Just think of what they're losing by excluding gays in the first place. There are, no doubt, incredibly apt gay men who would do a pretty damn good job serving their country, but they just aren't allowed to.

If the military is worried about rape, then why did they ever let women join? Let's see... thousands of sex-starved men + out in the middle of nowhere then add women to that equation. It's no different than having gay men in with other men.

And the whole "sweaty men in the barracks" thing just doesnt hold up. It's no different than the "sweaty women and men in the barracks." No matter what your sexual preference, you are there to do your job, just like any other job. If you can't control yourself on duty, sexually or otherwise, then you are simply unfit for service - just like any other job.

So, it boils down to homophobia. The military leaders are homophobic, pentagon is homophobic, country is homophobic. Women and men soldiers work together and are attracted to each other. I guess the military doesnt have a problem with that. But they have a problem with two men. Yeah, homophobia. Just like people were afraid of blacks before the 1960s.

As far as the psychology goes, KyleLosAngeles is the only one I trust/agree with on this thread.

Homophobia is more often than not an indicator that the homophobic person is desperatly denying that his own sexuality is "less than straight." Did you ever go to high school??? Surely you would have observed that. And the hostile homophobic (like the person in the first anecdote) is actually the most likely closet case. He's just denying his own sexuality. And the 14 year old girl comment? Yeah, the guy has some serious homophobic issues that are suggesting something else entirely.

And actually, Clinton's dont-ask-dont-tell policy WAS a small step forward in this issue. Before that, it was no gays period. So I commend him for that; we can't expect leaping changes to come out of Washington.
 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 11:50 pm

RE: Gay GI Who Got Purple Heart Wants To Serve Openly

Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:21 pm

I think that the "don't ask, don't tell" policy is asinine (but you shouldn't be surprised, since it's a product of the Clinton years).

Bill Clinton wanted a FULL repeal of the no gays in the military policy installed by your hero, Ronald Reagan. Unless you were asleep in 1993, or a complete moron, you would know that Clinton tried his best to repeal it, but such vaunted GOP conservatives as Bob Dole, John McCain, and that hideous Georgia Democrat Sam Nunn took Clinton to task. Even that shameless huckster, Colin Powell, went all out to oppose the Clinton repeal. Talk show hosts such as Rush Limberger and other assorted guttermouths engaged in the WORST anti-gay opposition to the repeal, after which the "Dont ask, Dont tell" policy came about.

Clinton's cowardice in the face of Republican evil may be something to be annoyed about, but focus your animosity on those cowards and bigots who used gay men and women in the military as political fodder to take a shot at Clinton very early on in his tenure.

And btw, MD-90, your little account there featuring that sleazy "pay for sex" so-called marine who thinks its perfectly fine to prostitute himself out for a $ 40 "sensual massage" fails the laugh test. Next time you want to make a case against gays in the military come up with something better, and not something that was written by a 12 year old retard.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
concord977
Posts: 1224
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2004 1:43 pm

RE: Gay GI Who Got Purple Heart Wants To Serve Openly

Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:40 pm

MD90 / UH60 - you guys are so far out of your league on this one you'll need a bus ticket to get home.

Quoting KyleLosAngeles (Reply 27):
My entire point is about young men who are sexually 'uncertain', who put themselves knowingly into homoerotic situations and then later portray themselves as innocent and naive and claim to be outraged.

That point went right over their heads because they don't want to admit it is even possible.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 29):
You'd make one hell of a counselor... not to mention one hell of a friend!

He WOULD make a hell of a counselor and he is already a hell of a good friend.





Quoting Shawn Patrick (Reply 33):
And the whole "sweaty men in the barracks" thing just doesnt hold up.




Quoting KyleLosAngeles (Reply 32):
What I think is very revealing is your obsession with calling other people gay, and then generalizing on their sexual behavior.



Agree 100% with both points.
No info
 
jcs17
Posts: 7376
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2001 11:13 am

RE: Gay GI Who Got Purple Heart Wants To Serve Openly

Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:50 pm

Let's take a step back for a second.

Why does he want to do this?

Self-affirmation? Probably not.

Getting to be the spotlight? Probably not.

The only reason that he could possibly have for wanting to serve openly is to be able to advertise his sexual preference to his fellow soldiers. Yeah, he's probably not looking at penises in the shower and eyeing straight dudes in the shower. He's probably a real courageous soldier, but when it comes down to it, he's basically trying to advertise his services. I don't think sex belongs in the military. Period. Does it happen? Yeah, probably, but that doesn't mean that a straight person or a gay person should be looking for sexual opportunities while on active duty.
America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
 
flybyguy
Posts: 1415
Joined: Sun Jun 27, 2004 12:52 pm

RE: Gay GI Who Got Purple Heart Wants To Serve Openly

Mon Apr 18, 2005 4:50 pm

I was told that the US military was working on a "gay bomb". Is this just an urban legend or was it true? I understand that no chemical is going to make people gay, but I guess a gas filled with pheromones (of some sort) will heighten an enemy army's sexual desires so much so that it would be 'distracted'.
"Are you a pretender... or a thoroughbred?!" - Professor Matt Miller
 
Shawn Patrick
Posts: 2465
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2000 7:30 am

RE: Gay GI Who Got Purple Heart Wants To Serve Openly

Mon Apr 18, 2005 9:52 pm

JCS17 -

"Advertise his services" ??? So that means straight men are advertising THEIR services too? What the hell are you talking about, man?

As far as I know, the dont-ask policy says that if any homosexual behavior is reported, it's grounds for dismissal - even off-duty homosexual behavior. Under the policy, theoretically NOBODY is even supposed to know that you are gay. So all this guy wants is to be able to do what he wants when he's off duty and not have to watch his back.

It has nothing to do with your services thing, I don't even know where you're going with that.
 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 11:50 pm

RE: Gay GI Who Got Purple Heart Wants To Serve Openly

Mon Apr 18, 2005 11:22 pm

The only reason that he could possibly have for wanting to serve openly is to be able to advertise his sexual preference to his fellow soldiers.

People want to serve openly so that they don't have to live double lives, pretend that they're straight, hide their significant others with whom they may have been partnered for years.

People want to serve openly so that they don't have to lie.

Now that's an alien concept to a lot of really stupid right wingers.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: Gay GI Who Got Purple Heart Wants To Serve Openly

Tue Apr 19, 2005 12:22 am

Quoting JCS17 (Reply 36):
The only reason that he could possibly have for wanting to serve openly is to be able to advertise his sexual preference to his fellow soldiers. Yeah, he's probably not looking at penises in the shower and eyeing straight dudes in the shower. He's probably a real courageous soldier, but when it comes down to it, he's basically trying to advertise his services.

Total bullshit JCS17. Your thinking is pretty warped here. While I'm sure he might take an eyefull in the shower, that's likely not his primary motivation for wanting to serve his country. I have known a few gay men and women in the military and all served honorably, with distinction on occasion, and I'd be proud to serve with them again.

That said, regulations prohibit his serving openly.

Quoting JCS17 (Reply 36):
I don't think sex belongs in the military.

Well, toooo late! It's been happening since the dawn of the ages, and it isn't likely to stop any time soon. It's a human nature thing, and it has happened, continues to happen, and will continue to happen. I was, of course, a participant in such activity, and I assure you it did not degrade my combat readiness nor have a negative impact on my career or my soldiers. It's not like we came to work every day in my tank company and went out hunting down the female soldiers just to give a good screwing before Revielle. Narrow viewpoint IMO.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
MD-90
Posts: 7835
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2000 12:45 pm

RE: Gay GI Who Got Purple Heart Wants To Serve Openly

Tue Apr 19, 2005 1:01 am

Quoting Concord977 (Reply 35):
That point went right over their heads because they don't want to admit it is even possible.

No, it's because I actually know the person in question, and I'm pretty darn sure that's not the case.
 
diamond
Posts: 3000
Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2004 8:01 am

RE: Gay GI Who Got Purple Heart Wants To Serve Openly

Tue Apr 19, 2005 1:06 am

Quoting JCS17 (Reply 36):
The only reason that he could possibly have for wanting to serve openly is to be able to advertise his sexual preference to his fellow soldiers. Yeah, he's probably not looking at penises in the shower and eyeing straight dudes in the shower. He's probably a real courageous soldier, but when it comes down to it, he's basically trying to advertise his services. I don't think sex belongs in the military. Period. Does it happen? Yeah, probably, but that doesn't mean that a straight person or a gay person should be looking for sexual opportunities while on active duty.

Ladies and Gentlemen, we have a winner.

Blank.
 
Russophile
Posts: 1304
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2004 9:22 am

RE: Gay GI Who Got Purple Heart Wants To Serve Openly

Tue Apr 19, 2005 1:40 am

Frankly, I'm a bit perplexed as to why anyone would want to defend a country which basically treats them like shit and as a third-class citizen?

Quoting Diamond (Reply 42):
Ladies and Gentlemen, we have a winner.

And who is that in the photo wearing a faggy looking PINK shirt?
 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 11:50 pm

RE: Gay GI Who Got Purple Heart Wants To Serve Openly

Tue Apr 19, 2005 2:46 am

Thats not a faggy looking pink shirt.

Its the pink cotton candy he's made of.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
SFOMEX
Posts: 1602
Joined: Sat Dec 04, 2004 8:55 am

RE: Gay GI Who Got Purple Heart Wants To Serve Openly

Tue Apr 19, 2005 7:17 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 34):
Even that shameless huckster, Colin Powell, went all out to oppose the Clinton repeal.

You made some good arguments. I've always wondered why Colin Powell was so adamant opposing Clinton's policy regarding gays in the military.

He is pro-abortion, pro-affirmative action and a moderate Republican. Furthermore, as a black guy, I'm sure he knows two or three things about discrimination. Yet, he said that Clinton's proposal would damage the armed forces. If somebody like him says that allowing openly gays in the military is a bad idea, we should at least pay attention to his reasons.
The only thing worst than the GOP is the Democratic Party, think about it!
 
Shawn Patrick
Posts: 2465
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2000 7:30 am

RE: Gay GI Who Got Purple Heart Wants To Serve Openly

Tue Apr 19, 2005 7:24 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 39):
People want to serve openly so that they don't have to live double lives, pretend that they're straight, hide their significant others with whom they may have been partnered for years.

People want to serve openly so that they don't have to lie.

Now that's an alien concept to a lot of really stupid right wingers.

Incredibly - well - said.

Diamond --

That's the funniest thing I've seen in a long time! Feeling better?  Smile
 
flybyguy
Posts: 1415
Joined: Sun Jun 27, 2004 12:52 pm

RE: Gay GI Who Got Purple Heart Wants To Serve Openly

Tue Apr 19, 2005 1:08 pm

Quoting SFOMEX (Reply 45):
Yet, [Colin Powell] said that Clinton's proposal would damage the armed forces. If somebody like him says that allowing openly gays in the military is a bad idea, we should at least pay attention to his reasons.

As a decorated general, Colin Powell is probably an authority on what is good for the military and troops in general. As far as his reasoning, your guess is as good as mine.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 28):
Never, ever had any trouble with gay or lesbian men/women, or straight men and women or any combination thereof. Stay within the boundaries of the Uniform Code of Military Justice and everything is just fine.

If this is true for the most part, my admiration for the military, it's rules of ethics, and it's training standards has gone up a notch. That must be some damn good training to keep under-sexed men's wieners in their pants for the sake of their military duties.
"Are you a pretender... or a thoroughbred?!" - Professor Matt Miller
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: Gay GI Who Got Purple Heart Wants To Serve Openly

Tue Apr 19, 2005 1:14 pm

Quoting Flybyguy (Reply 47):
That must be some damn good training to keep under-sexed men's wieners in their pants for the sake of their military duties.

On duty, I don't give a damn if they're under-sexed, over-sexed, male, female, gay, lesbian, what the hell ever - on duty, Mission First. If they let me down there, we will 'discuss' it. No matter what, their personal life is exactly that.

When they're on their own time in their own environment - it's none of my business what the hell goes on - as long as I don't read it on a police report tomorrow (referred to as a Blotter Report) morning.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
dl021
Posts: 10836
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 12:04 pm

RE: Gay GI Who Got Purple Heart Wants To Serve Openly

Tue Apr 19, 2005 1:25 pm

I think, that without offering an opinion on this topic first, that this issue could be looked at in the following way.

The military is required by law to provide different facilities to the opposite sexes. The reason for this is to limit contact between the sexes in a unit or while on duty as such fraternization usually results in a breakdown in good order and discipline which can get people hurt or killed.

The problem with open gays in the military is the same. People's attitude and concerns would be impacted by having a person of the attracting sex available in such close quarters....sharing rooms, latrines, showers, etc. Both orientations would be affected in undeniable manners and good order would be adversely impacted.

I have a solution that I think will please everyone I served with who are still in. Keep the rooms, latrines, and showers separated by orientation and not sex. Men not attracted to women, therefore not available and not threatening, could shower with women..

Lesbians could shower with the men.

I think that'll make everyone happy.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: WarRI1 and 21 guests