DC10GUY
Topic Author
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Death Of The SUV & Monster Truck?

Tue Apr 19, 2005 9:25 am

I just paid 35 bucks for 15 gallons of gas here in PHX. I do think that the high gas prices will have some positive effects ... Do you think that the end of the huge SUV and the giant monster trucks is finally here ??? I sure hope so. Maybe the gas hogs will go away soon.
Next time try the old "dirty Sanchez" She'll love it !!!
 
aerobalance
Posts: 4308
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RE: Death Of The SUV & Monster Truck?

Tue Apr 19, 2005 9:29 am

No... Hybrid versions will soon be available.

Why would a manufacturer let all of that profit margin slip away by cancelling a product line?
"Sing a song, play guitar, make it snappy..."
 
TPASXM787
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RE: Death Of The SUV & Monster Truck?

Tue Apr 19, 2005 9:41 am

Yeah $44 every time I fill up the Jeep is getting a bit regoddamndiculous. I was thinking about a hybrid, I want to see the technology when I get my next car. I know the Accord has more HP than the gas model.
This is the Last Stop.
 
flight152
Posts: 3211
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RE: Death Of The SUV & Monster Truck?

Tue Apr 19, 2005 9:42 am

No. Even more SUV's are entering the market. The new Saab 9-7X, Hummer H3  yuck  are just a few examples.
 
DC10GUY
Topic Author
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RE: Death Of The SUV & Monster Truck?

Tue Apr 19, 2005 9:46 am

I'm thinking about a VW Golf diesel. 47 mpg would work for me. Diesel fuel here in PHX is $2.40 a gallon. A hybrid SUV would be a good idea. Either way I think the gas hogs are on the way out.
Next time try the old "dirty Sanchez" She'll love it !!!
 
lowrider
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RE: Death Of The SUV & Monster Truck?

Tue Apr 19, 2005 9:48 am

A diesel-electric hybrid is overdue. A large SUV would be a great platform to launch this. If fuel prices stay high enough long enough, I am sure consumer demand will bring this about.
Proud OOTSK member
 
TPASXM787
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RE: Death Of The SUV & Monster Truck?

Tue Apr 19, 2005 9:53 am

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 5):
A diesel-electric hybrid is overdue. A large SUV would be a great platform to launch this. If fuel prices stay high enough long enough, I am sure consumer demand will bring this about.

I am all in for this, as I love having a larger car. I would be willing to pay a bit more for it, and I agree that consumer demand is going to bring about some changes. That is, as soon as the large oil companies find a way to make a profit off of it.
This is the Last Stop.
 
SATL382G
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RE: Death Of The SUV & Monster Truck?

Tue Apr 19, 2005 9:57 am

You all have short memories or maybe none at all. In the mid seventies everybody had to have a good gas mileage car because "gas is too expensive at 49.9". The station wagons and aircraft carrier sized cars disappeared. Everybody started buying diesel cars, volkswagens, mazdas, vegas, etc.

Wanna guess what happened a few years later? You guessed it along comes the pickup truck craze followed shortly thereafter by the SUVs.

Getting rid of SUVs or buying hybrids is not the answer -- changing the way we get around is.
"There’s nothing quite as exhilarating as being shot at and missed" --Winston Churchill
 
aerobalance
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RE: Death Of The SUV & Monster Truck?

Tue Apr 19, 2005 10:01 am

If you noticed...... I stated a hybrid - SUV.............. They'll never go away
"Sing a song, play guitar, make it snappy..."
 
SATL382G
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RE: Death Of The SUV & Monster Truck?

Tue Apr 19, 2005 10:05 am

Quoting Aerobalance (Reply 8):
If you noticed...... I stated a hybrid - SUV.............. They'll never go away

Sure they will - just like station wagons and fenders with fins. Something equally outrageous and pretentious will replace them however.
"There’s nothing quite as exhilarating as being shot at and missed" --Winston Churchill
 
lowrider
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RE: Death Of The SUV & Monster Truck?

Tue Apr 19, 2005 10:12 am

Quoting SATL382G (Reply 7):
Getting rid of SUVs or buying hybrids is not the answer -- changing the way we get around is.

How do you suggest we get around then? I am all for efficiency, and hybrids seem to be the next big step in fuel efficient vehicles. Most American cities are built around a mobile population. Leveling them all and starting over is not a realistic option. Teleportation is a long way off and mass transit is very inefficient in most US cities in terms of money and resources consumed per person moved. So whats the average person to do?
Proud OOTSK member
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Death Of The SUV & Monster Truck?

Tue Apr 19, 2005 11:37 am

Quoting DC10GUY (Thread starter):
Do you think that the end of the huge SUV and the giant monster trucks is finally here ???

Simple answer: NOPE.  bigthumbsup 

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y60/csmpep/TheMANTruck.jpg

 duck   stirthepot 
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
thomasphoto60
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RE: Death Of The SUV & Monster Truck?

Tue Apr 19, 2005 11:44 am

Quoting TPASXM787 (Reply 2):
Yeah $44 every time I fill up the Jeep is getting a bit regoddamndiculous. I was thinking about a hybrid, I want to see the technology when I get my next car.

I thought I read somewhere that Jeep was coming out with a Diesel powered Liberty. I own a Wrangler ('00') and while I feel your pain but I love Jeeps. It is very likely my next new car will be a Jeep as well (probably a Liberty or one of the newer LWB Wanglers).

Thomas
"Show me the Braniffs"
 
cptkrell
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RE: Death Of The SUV & Monster Truck?

Tue Apr 19, 2005 12:12 pm

The "death"? Probably not. Many people who don't really need a big truck or one of the more outrageous SUVs might be put off by fuel prices, but those that need them will continue to buy in quantities that will serve the mfgrs well. As a matter of fact I'm currently looking for precisely the model ANCFlyer pictured. Even the color is ok (but I don't need an accessory top). Heavy duty, 4wd is a must on the new property and I'll just have to pay more in fuel.

Depending on driving habits, say one spends an extra $15 a week in fuel with the current high prices, that would equate to about $780 extra per year, hardly enough to deter the purchase of a $25,000 - $35,000 or more $ vehicle for those who are in that economic profile. If one worries about an extra grand a year in fuel to feed their show-monster, then perhaps they should downsize as they are probably overextending to begin with. So, I can see sales tapering off because of fuel prices, but I don't see the death of this genre anytime soon. Of course new technology combinations to significantly improve mileage will always be welcome and when available could alter further the buyer demographics. Regards...Jack
all best; jack
 
JBirdAV8r
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RE: Death Of The SUV & Monster Truck?

Tue Apr 19, 2005 12:21 pm

In two words: Hell no.

Those stupid working class soccer moms with Escalades will just keep charging the stuff onto their credit cards, further sinking themselves into debt...

JBirdAV8r
Proud owner of a (unmodified!!) Honda Civic
I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
 
ltbewr
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RE: Death Of The SUV & Monster Truck?

Tue Apr 19, 2005 12:31 pm

You could see more people choosing smaller to mid-sized SUV's. While fuel prices have let up a little from a couple of weeks ago, many whom drive a lot of miles will probably take a little more care in their next choice of vehicle, considering somewhat more fuel efficient models.
 
flight152
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RE: Death Of The SUV & Monster Truck?

Tue Apr 19, 2005 12:34 pm

Those stupid working class soccer moms with Escalades

Since when can the 'working class' afford a $60,000 car?  Confused
 
thomasphoto60
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RE: Death Of The SUV & Monster Truck?

Tue Apr 19, 2005 12:38 pm

Quoting Flight152 (Reply 16):
Since when can the 'working class' afford a $60,000 car? Confused

I was thinking the same thing.

Thomas
"Show me the Braniffs"
 
DC10GUY
Topic Author
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RE: Death Of The SUV & Monster Truck?

Tue Apr 19, 2005 12:52 pm

ANCFlyer, that's the perfect vehicle for living out in the sticks ... Is it a diesel too ? Too many people in the city drive them things to the mall and fight the freeway traffic with them. There will always be a need for 4X4 trucks, I just think the trendyness is fading because of the high cost of gas ...
Next time try the old "dirty Sanchez" She'll love it !!!
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Death Of The SUV & Monster Truck?

Tue Apr 19, 2005 1:04 pm

Quoting DC10GUY (Reply 18):
ANCFlyer, that's the perfect vehicle for living out in the sticks

Yup, and the damn thing will barely clear the underground parking garage in my condo - only 3" clearance  wideeyed 

Quoting DC10GUY (Reply 18):
Is it a diesel too ?

Yup, nothing better for pulling the camper  biggrin 
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
N317AS
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RE: Death Of The SUV & Monster Truck?

Tue Apr 19, 2005 1:16 pm

Quoting Flight152 (Reply 16):
Since when can the 'working class' afford a $60,000 car?

They can't afford it which is why they buy on credit. Now with the new bankruptcy rules, these people are in for a hurting.
Some people are like Slinkies. They bring a smile to your face when you push them down a flight of stairs.
 
flight152
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RE: Death Of The SUV & Monster Truck?

Tue Apr 19, 2005 1:34 pm

Even 'buying on credit' requires a substantial down payment which I would be hard pressed to see the 'working class' come up with. Not to mention that it would be financial suicide.

Most* people are smarter then that.


*A word I use loosely
 
Superfly
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RE: Death Of The SUV & Monster Truck?

Tue Apr 19, 2005 11:53 pm

DC10GUY:
The "trendyness' of these large SUVs is certainly dying off but the new fad is even worse!
The car-based unibody SUV is more popular today. They are the worst of both worlds. It's still talk, bulky, compromised gas milage and handling yet it can't go off road or haul anything. Instead your just sitting up high looking stupid.
People that NEED a truck based SUV as ANCFlyer and Cptkrell can pick one up used rather cheap considering there is a glut on the used truck market.
Bring back the Concorde
 
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RayChuang
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RE: Death Of The SUV & Monster Truck?

Wed Apr 20, 2005 12:36 am

I think what will happen is that automakers will now re-double their efforts to develop turbodiesel engines that meet the EPA Tier 4 emission rules, which will make them 50-state legal. That will allow light trucks, SUV's and minivans to be switched mostly to turbodiesel engines, which means 35-45% fuel economy improvements right there!  bigthumbsup 
 
Superfly
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RE: Death Of The SUV & Monster Truck?

Wed Apr 20, 2005 12:37 am

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 23):
I think what will happen is that automakers will now re-double their efforts to develop turbodiesel engines that meet the EPA Tier 4 emission rules, which will make them 50-state legal. That will allow light trucks, SUV's and minivans to be switched mostly to turbodiesel engines, which means 35-45% fuel economy improvements right there!

Hasn't Jeep moved in that direction already with there Jeep Liberty availible in diesel?
Bring back the Concorde
 
Skystar
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RE: Death Of The SUV & Monster Truck?

Wed Apr 20, 2005 1:05 am

What's the appeal of driving a truck?

I dunno, it seems like an absolute turnoff to me - a big fat, clumsy thing that can't corner.

I like cars that are fun to drive - they need to corner and brake well, especially.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Death Of The SUV & Monster Truck?

Wed Apr 20, 2005 2:01 am

Quoting Skystar (Reply 25):
I like cars that are fun to drive - they need to corner and brake well, especially.

Bully for you!  biggrin 

Find a car that "corners" that will also haul 12,800 pounds behind it over mountain roads . . . . and be sure to include the following requirements: Enough room for 73inch/220 pounds so I don't feel claustrophobic . . . and one that can see above the traffic . . . and one that won't be a frickin' grease spot in an intersection if someone fails to stop . . . and one that won't bottom out in six inches of snow and sit there spinning the tires . . .

My truck was purchased with a purpose in mind. Driving in Alaska, outside of the City of Anchorage, in all weather/road conditions. Mission accomplished. See reply 11  wink  The diesel handily manages the large camper over any mountain, I can move freely about my seat, I'm not going to be a grease spot in an accident, I can see above most everything except tractor-trailers and big buses (and the damn tourists in their way too big motorhomes) and I'm certainly not going to get stuck in the snow. I might not be able to get there as fast or corner like I'm driving at Indy, but I'll be the guy driving past you at the gas pump or the scene of the crash  spit 

Plus, it looks good too  bigthumbsup 
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
Superfly
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RE: Death Of The SUV & Monster Truck?

Wed Apr 20, 2005 2:23 am

ANCFlyer:
If God drove a truck, it would be a Ford F-350 with a diesel.  Cool
Bring back the Concorde
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Death Of The SUV & Monster Truck?

Wed Apr 20, 2005 2:49 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 27):
If God drove a truck, it would be a Ford F-350 with a diesel.

Yup, you betcha! With lots of chrome (frickin high maintenance stuff!) and KC Daylighters on the bumper.  checkeredflag 
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
SATL382G
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RE: Death Of The SUV & Monster Truck?

Wed Apr 20, 2005 3:06 am

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 10):
How do you suggest we get around then? I am all for efficiency, and hybrids seem to be the next big step in fuel efficient vehicles. Most American cities are built around a mobile population. Leveling them all and starting over is not a realistic option. Teleportation is a long way off and mass transit is very inefficient in most US cities in terms of money and resources consumed per person moved. So whats the average person to do?

Most American cities were literally built around light rail, which in the forties and fifties, most US cities abandoned. Bring back light rail, which is already happening in some cities, and leave the car at home. The money is there for light rail and the technology has been available for decades.
"There’s nothing quite as exhilarating as being shot at and missed" --Winston Churchill
 
Superfly
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RE: Death Of The SUV & Monster Truck?

Wed Apr 20, 2005 3:14 am

Quoting SATL382G (Reply 29):
The money is there for light rail and the technology has been available for decades.

Very true but the 'Uniter' that claims not to be a 'Divider' and his Congress rather spend our tax dollars on wars in Iraq an oil rich nation .
Bring back the Concorde
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Death Of The SUV & Monster Truck?

Wed Apr 20, 2005 3:18 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 30):
Very true but the 'Uniter' that claims not to be a 'Divider' and his Congress rather spend our tax dollars on wars in Iraq an oil rich nation .

Man, Fly, this thread was doing so great - now you went and politicized it. . . I thought better of you . . . bummer.  thumbsdown 
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
SATL382G
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RE: Death Of The SUV & Monster Truck?

Wed Apr 20, 2005 3:23 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 30):
Very true but the 'Uniter' that claims not to be a 'Divider' and his Congress rather spend our tax dollars on wars in Iraq an oil rich nation .

Every administration from Eisenhower on has done the same or very similar things... They are simply answering the demand from the American people instead of leading same.
"There’s nothing quite as exhilarating as being shot at and missed" --Winston Churchill
 
CaptOveur
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RE: Death Of The SUV & Monster Truck?

Wed Apr 20, 2005 3:24 am

Even the unwashed hippies at my university dropped the "no wars for oil" crap. Once they got it I thought everyone had.

This thread was doing so well too.
Things were better when it was two guys in a dorm room.
 
Superfly
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RE: Death Of The SUV & Monster Truck?

Wed Apr 20, 2005 3:34 am

ANCFlyer & CaptOvuer:
Sorry, I was just responding to SATL382G's post.

Ford trucks are the best!  bigthumbsup 
Is that best ANCFlyer? Big grin



CaptOvyer:
The unwashed hippies realize the election is over.
Bring back the Concorde
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Death Of The SUV & Monster Truck?

Wed Apr 20, 2005 3:38 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 34):
Ford trucks are the best!
Is that best ANCFlyer?

 bigthumbsup 

OK, Brownie point made . . .
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
whitehatter
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RE: Death Of The SUV & Monster Truck?

Wed Apr 20, 2005 3:57 am

No reason why SUVs need be extinct in the short to medium term.

All that has to happen is for the manufacturers to start taking out weight and putting in efficiency. Add to that a trend away from driving totally unnecessary big-ass vehicles which honestly are NOT as safe as they look and that starts to solve the problems.

All the British Chelsea tractor drivers chime about how safe their SUVs are on the school run. They soon shit a brick when they see that the tiny Toyota Yaris 1.0 in front of them performs way better in EuroNCAP crash testing than their Chrysler or Nissan or Range Rover.

We used to love our big cars in Europe, now we love our smaller but more efiicient and powerful cars instead. I was shocked when I found out how much grunt Toyota manage to squeeze out of a one litre engine! Downsizing the engine, adding in more valves and electronic refinements is what is needed. Do you really need a five litre engine? Or an efficient two litre which produces just as much power on half the gas?

No reason why America's love affair with the car should end, just the ground rules of the marriage need changing and cutting down on drinking  Wink
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: Death Of The SUV & Monster Truck?

Wed Apr 20, 2005 5:58 am

Quoting Aerobalance (Reply 1):
No... Hybrid versions will soon be available.

The Silvarado already is. It only nets you a fuel improvement of 1 gph though.
 
Superfly
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RE: Death Of The SUV & Monster Truck?

Wed Apr 20, 2005 6:08 am

Quoting WhiteHatter (Reply 36):
Do you really need a five litre engine?

Yes you do and some times more.
What you are talking about is top-end horse power which you can achive with a small engine. However you need tourqe to haul heavy eqipment. The ONLY way you can do that is with a large displacement engine.
Bring back the Concorde
 
whitehatter
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RE: Death Of The SUV & Monster Truck?

Wed Apr 20, 2005 7:20 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 38):
Yes you do and some times more.
What you are talking about is top-end horse power which you can achive with a small engine. However you need tourqe to haul heavy eqipment. The ONLY way you can do that is with a large displacement engine.

and just how many drivers in the USA are using their SUVs to do that? Or pulling heavy equipment in their five litre cars?

If you need low end grunt then go diesel. That's what diesels do. It's the people who drive a monster engined car and only go on the school or office run who are the problem.
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
Superfly
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Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Death Of The SUV & Monster Truck?

Wed Apr 20, 2005 7:38 am

WhiteHatter:
I agree with you. I've always advocated diesel engines especially for trucks.
However I like my 7.5 liter V8 powered sedan.  Smile
The original owner towed an Airstream camper cross country and for weekend getaways. It's heavy-duty towing is rated at 7,000 pounds.
I don't tow anything now but I might in the future.
Best of all, my Town Car's height is lower than the little Toyota Matrix and VW Passat. Therefore I am not blinding drivers behind me. Parking isn't any harder than when I had my little Chrysler LeBaron. Size of a parking space is rarley a problem. The availibility of a parking space here in San Francisco is usually the issue. I see little Mini Coopers driving around in circles looking for a parking spot all the time too.
Fortuntaly I use public transit for my daily commutes.

By the way, the little LeBaron had only a 2.2 liter turbocharged engine. It had plenty of top-end horsepower but it had no low-end power what so ever. My friend's Ford Escort had more off the line pick up than my LeBaron. Plus the exhaust on that LeBaron was very loud and the vibrations in the car at speeds over 50 MPH made the ride quality uncomfortable.
Bring back the Concorde
 
PHLBOS
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RE: Death Of The SUV & Monster Truck?

Wed Apr 20, 2005 8:04 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 40):
Best of all, my Town Car's height is lower than the little Toyota Matrix and VW Passat. Therefore I am not blinding drivers behind me. Parking isn't any harder than when I had my little Chrysler LeBaron. Size of a parking space is rarley a problem.

Depending on how some parking spaces are striped, fitting a 233-inch long car that has a 127-inch wheelbase can be a challenge. If one can manuever a big car of the '70s, overhang and all; any other vehicle's a piece of cake.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
keesje
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RE: Death Of The SUV & Monster Truck?

Wed Apr 20, 2005 8:06 am

I think Greenpeace should start a campaign on SUV buyers.

Who they are, why they buy it, average IQ, recognition needs, environmental awareness, average weight, their hobby's etc.

Some sharp video clips, billboard etc. to support it..

Probably then potential SUV buyers don't want to be assosiated with SUV's anymore..
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
Superfly
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RE: Death Of The SUV & Monster Truck?

Wed Apr 20, 2005 8:12 am

PHLBOS:
Not to sound cheesy but I am an expert at fitting a large object in to a tight place.  Wink



Gosh I've said that to so many dates that's said; "Oh my, how are you going to park this thing! ".
 Silly
Bring back the Concorde
 
DC10GUY
Topic Author
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RE: Death Of The SUV & Monster Truck?

Wed Apr 20, 2005 8:31 am

Superfly, I'll bet it costs you 20 bucks to cover the bottom of your Lincoln's tank with gas ... I do like cars better than trucks. Them boats from the 70's could really drink the gas ...
Next time try the old "dirty Sanchez" She'll love it !!!
 
Superfly
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RE: Death Of The SUV & Monster Truck?

Wed Apr 20, 2005 8:47 am

DC10GUY:
I havent filled my tank up in almost a month. It cost me $57 to do it.
I only drive on the weekends and even those are short trips.
I'll be driving to LA in about a month and a party up in Marin in two weeks. Thats the only driving I'll be doing for awhile.
If I 'needed' a car, I'd have something a lot more efficient.
Perhaps a 1985 diesel powered Mercury Lynx 5-door hatch.  Smile
Bring back the Concorde
 
sacflyer
Posts: 364
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2004 8:19 am

RE: Death Of The SUV & Monster Truck?

Wed Apr 20, 2005 9:08 am

Quoting TPASXM787 (Reply 2):
regoddamndiculous

ROTFLMAO
I'm just happy that RR ratings can't be in negative numbers!
 
PHLBOS
Posts: 6504
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RE: Death Of The SUV & Monster Truck?

Thu Apr 21, 2005 12:46 am

'Fly,

I don't know about your neck of the woods; but out in the East Coast most of the parking spaces in lots are now striped without the 12 to 18 inch separation between the 9'x18' or 10'x20' spaces; from the mid-'70s and back, the separation was always included in the striping. The space took into account room for door-swings; especially for large 2-doors.

As with yourself, I have shoe-horned both of my '76 LTDs (the 4-door I had during my college years and the 2-door I have now) into some tight areas. To get in (and out) of my 2-door (in a perpendicular and/or angled parking arrangement) when its parked in those tight spots; it encourages one has to stay trim. 

Keesje,

An ad. that equated SUV buyers to supporting terrorists/terrorism (via buying more Arab-oil-based fuel for their vehicles) already came and went. Along with some credibility issues, the ad. didn't have an impact on people's buying habbits.

[Edited 2005-04-20 17:47:09]
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
Biggles
Posts: 449
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RE: Death Of The SUV & Monster Truck?

Thu Apr 21, 2005 1:26 am

Ninety five percent of the SUV's around here spend all their time in mall and school parking lots. They are also the first vehicles in the ditch when it snows ,because most of their drivers don't know how to use the all-wheel/four-wheel drive system properly. A two ton truck doesn't stop as quick as a Honda Civic.
They are good vehicles ,but are usually miss-used as Urban Assault Vehicles.

Keep driving them though, Alberta is oil-rich and getting cash richer.Which means I pay less Provincial taxes  Smile
 
Boeing Nut
Posts: 5078
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RE: Death Of The SUV & Monster Truck?

Sat Apr 23, 2005 1:25 am

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 10):
How do you suggest we get around then?

Umm, car pooling works.
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.

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