tbar220
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Commentary On New Pope

Wed Apr 20, 2005 1:11 am



What do you think, could it be possible to get a new pope who could shake the very foundation of all the conservative ideals of the last century?
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WunalaYann
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RE: Commentary On New Pope

Wed Apr 20, 2005 1:17 am

Picture on the right any day of the week!!!!!!!!!  Smile

Too bad, just as likely as the A380 being the next Air Force One!  Wink

Cheers,

Y.
 
dvk
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RE: Commentary On New Pope

Wed Apr 20, 2005 1:50 am

Looks like it's Ratzinger, so the picture on the left appears to have won. Too bad.
I'm not dumb. I just have a command of thoroughly useless information.
 
ctbarnes
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RE: Commentary On New Pope

Wed Apr 20, 2005 2:04 am

It's already happened once in the 20th Century. John XXIII was considered to be merely a placeholder when he announced Vatican II much to the shock an horror of just about everyone in the curia.

Charles, SJ
The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy
 
dvk
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RE: Commentary On New Pope

Wed Apr 20, 2005 2:10 am

Somehow, I don't expect Benedict XVI to shake things up, but rather, to lock things down. As a disaffected Catholic who still has great faith, although not in the Church and its hierarchy at this point, I'm terribly disappointed. It's worse than seeing Bush win last November.
I'm not dumb. I just have a command of thoroughly useless information.
 
mopac
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RE: Commentary On New Pope

Wed Apr 20, 2005 2:15 am

What happened to the "No Superpower Pope" thing????

I think a lot of people on this side of the Atlantic were really rooting for the Cardinal of Honduras. What a disappointment.
 
prosa
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RE: Commentary On New Pope

Wed Apr 20, 2005 2:17 am

Quoting Ctbarnes (Reply 3):
It's already happened once in the 20th Century. John XXIII was considered to be merely a placeholder when he announced Vatican II much to the shock an horror of just about everyone in the curia.

Or, to cite a secular example, Earl Warren. He was the Republican Attorney General and then Governor of California, a staunch conservative who garnered a lot of criticism for blocking judicial nominees he deemed too liberal, and ran for Vice President on Dewey's Republican ticket in 1948.
Some years later, (Republican) President Eisenhower appointed Warren Chief Justice, thinking he'd carry on his conservative views. Warren instead did a complete 180 and became the prototypical bleeding-heart liberal and a champion of criminals' rights. One of his main allies on the Supreme Court was Hugo Black, a former KKK member who turned into a super-liberal once he exchanged his white robes for black ones.
Moral of the story: appointment to a lifetime position can do strange things to a person's views. Let's not assume that the new Pope will be an ardent opponent of change and modernization.
"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
 
Klaus
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RE: Commentary On New Pope

Wed Apr 20, 2005 2:22 am

MoPac: What happened to the "No Superpower Pope" thing????

Whatever they may want to believe, Bavaria is not a superpower!  cool 
 
DIJKKIJK
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RE: Commentary On New Pope

Wed Apr 20, 2005 2:24 am

Never argue with idiots. They will bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience.
 
jaysit
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RE: Commentary On New Pope

Wed Apr 20, 2005 2:26 am

Let's not assume that the new Pope will be an ardent opponent of change and modernization.

This Pope is 78 years old.

Earl Warren was much younger, more nuanced, and prone to a far less conservative ideology than the Catholic Church. Also, remember that many of the policies you call bleeding heart liberal had their roots in legislative fiat, something a straight line conservative would be forced to dispense under the law.

While your attempt at drawing comparisons is commendable, I think that comparisons are at best odious here.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
baw2198
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RE: Commentary On New Pope

Wed Apr 20, 2005 2:28 am

Its a disappointment in one respect that, I think a lot of us were looking for a replacement to John Paul II. I for one would have preferred a Pope that would continue with John Paul II's ideas and direction of the church. I don't know that much about Cardinal Ratzinger (Pope Benedict XVI). Hopefully he doesn't turn the papacy into seclusion. Much of what the church gained in the way of followers was because of John Paul II's openness and being seen by the masses.
"And remember, Keep your stick on the ice"--->Red Green
 
Superfly
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RE: Commentary On New Pope

Wed Apr 20, 2005 2:28 am

Quoting Dvk (Reply 4):
It's worse than seeing Bush win last November.

I disagree. Dubya's winning a second term was the worse day in America since 9/11. I am not that bothered by the selection of Ratzinger. Vatican will be selecting another Pope within 10 years anyway. This man is 78 years old.
Bring back the Concorde
 
Bofredrik
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RE: Commentary On New Pope

Wed Apr 20, 2005 2:33 am

It is a disaster for the Catholic Church as he is so conservative and will not make any adjustments to follow a modern world.  banghead 
 
geizistgeil
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RE: Commentary On New Pope

Wed Apr 20, 2005 2:42 am

...I agree most of the replies above. Ratzinger is so conservative  old ...even most of the german cardinals didn´t want him (so do I). I had to read books of him in school, oghhh.... I can tell you absolutly conservative  no . I would have liked to see a Third World pope. But I think, the next pope will be a more liberal, since Benedict will have a difficult inheritance after Johaness Paul II.

MS
"If the Wright brothers were alive today. Wilbur would have to fire Orville to reduce costs" (H. Kelleher)
 
Matt27
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RE: Commentary On New Pope

Wed Apr 20, 2005 2:48 am

Quoting Bofredrik (Reply 12):
It is a disaster for the Catholic Church as he is so conservative and will not make any adjustments to follow a modern world

You said it Bofredrik.

//Mattias
Man ska inte dricka rödvin i en vit hall.
 
TACAA320
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RE: Commentary On New Pope

Wed Apr 20, 2005 2:58 am

Quoting Dvk (Reply 2):
Looks like it's Ratzinger, so the picture on the left appears to have won. Too bad.



Quoting Bofredrik (Reply 12):
It is a disaster for the Catholic Church as he is so conservative and will not make any adjustments to follow a modern world



Quoting Matt27 (Reply 14):
You said it Bofredrik

Let Him begin His Papacy.

For us [the Catholics] His election is a reason of great joy. I personally wish Him wisdom. And God will give Him enough.
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
ltbewr
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RE: Commentary On New Pope

Wed Apr 20, 2005 2:59 am

I am somewhat surprised by the short time of this decision, but then the electing Cardinals have been in Rome for over 2 weeks, so plenty of time to think and discuss whom should be the next Pope.
I did believe that the next Pope, as here with the new Pope Benedict XVI, would come from within the Vatican heircharcy, not someone from outside it. As almost all of the voting Cardinals were appointed by Pope John Paul II, and were all stanch Theological Conservatives, so no wonder that at well defined Conservative was chosen. I would note that he is the 1st Germanic Pope since the 11th Century, and a 2nd secessive non-Italian Pope in 500 years (?)At age 78, probably Pope Benedict XVI may be around for 4-6 years, 10 years tops. There was some talk of a 'caretaker' Pope, an older man expected to be around a modest term and apparently this has come true. I also do not expect this Pope to be as much of a traveler as JPII, but will travel to his native Germany, and possibly Africa.
God bless him.
 
777236ER
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RE: Commentary On New Pope

Wed Apr 20, 2005 3:01 am

Perhaps his first act should be to openly condemn paedophilia within the church and ensure the parents of the abused children that their abusers will be brought to justice?
Your bone's got a little machine
 
dvk
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RE: Commentary On New Pope

Wed Apr 20, 2005 3:06 am

TACAA320...I'm Catholic, but I'm not happy with this selection, and I'm not optimistic that lightning will strike twice and make Benedict the second coming of John XXIII. I don't have blind faith in the hierarchy of the church, and I'm afraid they got it wrong this time. If I'm proven wrong in the years to come, I'll admit it, but I'm not holding my breath.
I'm not dumb. I just have a command of thoroughly useless information.
 
jaysit
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RE: Commentary On New Pope

Wed Apr 20, 2005 3:31 am

I personally wish Him wisdom. And God will give Him enough.

I guess god was on vacation or taking a nap when Ratzinger dismissed the priestly pedophilia scandal as a "planned campaign" against the church.

Either that, or god needs to dole out wisdom with a trovel in the next few days.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
Pe@rson
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RE: Commentary On New Pope

Wed Apr 20, 2005 3:38 am

Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 15):
I personally wish Him wisdom

Does this mean he has no wisdom at the moment???!
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
787
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RE: Commentary On New Pope

Wed Apr 20, 2005 3:39 am

Lol all the silly comments from the gallery. People will be surprised abut Pope Benedict XVI all you should do is give him the chance? People in the "modern" world people have extremely closed minds and thus the problems we all have in society today.

I am very happy. I wish you could be happy too for whatever the good reason.

Habemus Papam!
787 Italia - Io, il comandante dell'aria
 
SFOMEX
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RE: Commentary On New Pope

Wed Apr 20, 2005 4:06 am

Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 15):
Let Him begin His Papacy.

For us [the Catholics] His election is a reason of great joy. I personally wish Him wisdom. And God will give Him enough.

Well said TACAA320. Benedict XVI is a great Theologian and a man of prayer. He will be Pope for us Catholics, and not for those who oppose the Catholic Church. Therefore, as Catholic, I'm full of joy.

Quoting Dvk (Reply 18):
. I don't have blind faith in the hierarchy of the church,

Neither don't I. Yet, I have faith and therefore I blindly trust the Holy Spirit. I'm sure Benedict is the right man at the right time.
The only thing worst than the GOP is the Democratic Party, think about it!
 
Leskova
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RE: Commentary On New Pope

Wed Apr 20, 2005 5:58 am

I'm no catholic, not even christian - so all this interests me more from the view of "what effect will Benedikt XVI have on world politics"...

Clearly, John Paul II had quite a lot of influence - much has been said and written about his influence in the fall of communism in Eastern Europe, and he clearly deserves credit for that.

What will, or can, the new Pope achieve? Where can, or could/should, he try to use the influence of the church he now represents?

As for those seeing dark times ahead for the Catholic church - think again: Cardinal Ratzinger held a position that gave him a great deal of influence in matters of faith, he was - aside from, obviously, Pope John Paul II - one of the highest, if not the highest, authorities within the Catholic church.

If you weren't completely unhappy with the way things were going in Rome these past few years, then don't expect things to take a turn for the worse now.

Several times in history have people that everyone expected to be "nothing special" turned out to be a positive surprise... then again, some stayed "nothing special" throughout their time...

Give him the benefit of the doubt.

Regards,
Frank
Smile - it confuses people!
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: Commentary On New Pope

Wed Apr 20, 2005 6:02 am

Quoting Tbar220 (Thread starter):
What do you think, could it be possible to get a new pope who could shake the very foundation of all the conservative ideals of the last century?

1. Not in 10 Centuries, and rightly so.
2. It's not a churches function to change, it's the function of the members to change.

Why can't you liberals get that through your thick ignorant skulls?

Try this on. The Catholic Church has rules. You abide by them or you're not a Catholic. Simple as that. You don't like it, leave. It's not a Democracy.

Quoting Dvk (Reply 2):
Looks like it's Ratzinger, so the picture on the left appears to have won. Too bad.


Quoting Dvk (Reply 4):
Somehow, I don't expect Benedict XVI to shake things up, but rather, to lock things down. As a disaffected Catholic who still has great faith, although not in the Church and its hierarchy at this point, I'm terribly disappointed. It's worse than seeing Bush win last November.

You can come to grips with the fact you aren't a true Catholic anyway at any time. Please, feel free to find another church.

[Edited 2005-04-19 23:05:40]
 
jaysit
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RE: Commentary On New Pope

Wed Apr 20, 2005 6:12 am

Try this on. The Catholic Church has rules. You abide by them or you're not a Catholic. Simple as that. You don't like it, leave. It's not a Democracy.

That's nonsense.

The Catholic Church of 2005 is not the Catholic Church of 1423, let alone the Church of 1960.

Catechisms, rules, beliefs, decrees, ritual, etc., have all evolved over the years.

Maybe you need to get that into YOUR head.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
jpetekyxmd80
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RE: Commentary On New Pope

Wed Apr 20, 2005 6:21 am

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 26):
The Church just said otherwise. You should really try and get that through your thick head.

Ha, to think that the church hasn't changed its doctrine at all is pure ignorance. Look at the loosened lenten meat restrictions that used to be such a strong part of lent!
The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Commentary On New Pope

Wed Apr 20, 2005 6:23 am

Jaysit,

No reason to argue with 7E7.
He always needs somebody to tell him when to jump. His only question will be "How high,sir?"

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
Lucky727
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RE: Commentary On New Pope

Wed Apr 20, 2005 6:24 am

Well, John Paul II chose something like 90% of those who voted for the new pope - so I'd expect the current conservatism to last for at least the next 50 years...
··· [·] oooooooo [·] oooo oo ooooo [·] ooooooooooooooooooo [·]
 
jaysit
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RE: Commentary On New Pope

Wed Apr 20, 2005 6:38 am

The Church just said otherwise. You should really try and get that through your thick head.

It did no such thing.

I'd lay off the communal wine. You're supposed to sip it, not chug it down.

Ratzinger is a disciple of JPII. And while both men are conservatives, I have yet to see a repeal of Vatican II, or a return to the conversion of Jews advocated under Catholic doctrine for centuries.

Furthermore, the Biblical, patristic, liturgical and theological rules of the Catholic Church have changed radically over the years.

Why don't you learn something about your own religion? You don't appear to know much about its history or its teachings.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
tbar220
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RE: Commentary On New Pope

Wed Apr 20, 2005 6:47 am

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 24):
Why can't you liberals get that through your thick ignorant skulls?

Well if 7E7 disagrees with you, then he resorts to insults and you just must be wrong. I would respond to you to open up your thick ignorant skull and listen other opinions, discuss them, and not resort to insults.

Do you think the Catholic church should change? Do you realize that 51% of the church's members are women? And that they have no voice in the election of the pope? There's no women cardinals? And these are the same cardinals and popes who are against abortion (a woman's body and right) and birth control (a woman's body and right). Times have changed, there's nothing wrong with a church that molds and adapts to the face of the times.

Why not support freeom of reproductive rights for women? Why not support stem cell research which will help save thousands if not millions of lives? Why not show zero tolerance for sex abuse?

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 24):
Try this on. The Catholic Church has rules. You abide by them or you're not a Catholic. Simple as that. You don't like it, leave. It's not a Democracy.

This absolutely boggles my mind. So a woman who's catholic and gets raped wants to get an abortion. The church says no to abortions, what is she to do, leave the church? Not be catholic? Or what about the boy who was abused by a priest who ends up getting off the hook with nothing but a light slap on the wrist?
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Boeing7E7
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RE: Commentary On New Pope

Wed Apr 20, 2005 6:49 am

I'm Lutheran (Missouri Synod - not the wanna be ELCA) and well versed in both faiths. You don't want to make that challenge. If anything, the Catholic Church has adopted the Conservative Lutheran Theology since Luther first ticked off the Pope. If you're implying that makes them more liberal, you have much to learn.
 
SAS_A330-300
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RE: Commentary On New Pope

Wed Apr 20, 2005 8:40 am

Quoting Lucky727 (Reply 29):
Well, John Paul II chose something like 90% of those who voted for the new pope - so I'd expect the current conservatism to last for at least the next 50 years...

I think there are three, (one of them was Ratzinger) who were not choosen by John Paul II.
You know the gear is up when it takes full power to taxi
 
emiratesa345
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RE: Commentary On New Pope

Wed Apr 20, 2005 12:32 pm

With all due respect but, the Bible does condemn gay marriage and homosexuality altogether. Do you not think it would be a little out of place for the Pope to be accepting of such issues, seeing as how he follows that book?

Of course he has to be conservative.

Mark
You and I were meant to fly, Air Canada!
 
TACAA320
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RE: Commentary On New Pope

Wed Apr 20, 2005 12:46 pm

Quoting Dvk (Reply 18):
I'm Catholic, but I'm not happy with this selection, and I'm not optimistic that lightning will strike twice and make Benedict the second coming of John XXIII. I don't have blind faith in the hierarchy of the church, and I'm afraid they got it wrong this time. If I'm proven wrong in the years to come, I'll admit it, but I'm not holding my breath.

Why don't let Him begin His Papacy? He is not even enthroned yet...
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
TACAA320
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RE: Commentary On New Pope

Wed Apr 20, 2005 12:57 pm

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 20):
Does this mean he has no wisdom at the moment???!

Pe@arson, nice to see you back in here. So many days on vacations from a.net?

Back on tracks, I never said so, nor even thought that, nor even think that. Wish Him "wisdom" to the "Head of the Roman Catholic Church" is a good thing at all time. Even King Salomon did it. The Dalai Lama do it quite often.

Maybe you and I can ask for a little [or lot] more.

Cheers,
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
Falcon84
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RE: Commentary On New Pope

Wed Apr 20, 2005 1:07 pm

Quoting Bofredrik (Reply 12):
It is a disaster for the Catholic Church as he is so conservative and will not make any adjustments to follow a modern world.

The Church's charge isn't to follow whatever the modern world is doing, Bofredrick. It's to keep the faithful just that-faithful to what it sees as the teachings of Christ. Just because modern societies have a rage for gay marriage, abortion-on-demand and the like ,doesn't mean the Church should bend to those fads of the time. It also doesn't mean it should be intrastringent on issues like birth control in overpopulated areas, or even in who should be priests.

It isn't a disaster-it's only a disaster to those "everything goes" souls, who have no moral compass, and who want anything to be accepted just to make them happy.

Give His Holiness a chance, for goodness sake, before judging him.

My commentary on him? May the Lord Bless and Keep him for as many years as He sees fit to have him run the Church, and give him the wisdom to lead wisely, and to not to just give in to secular wishes and desires.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Commentary On New Pope

Wed Apr 20, 2005 1:38 pm

Falcon,
are you some sort of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde by any chance??? I mean one day you are all out bashing Dumbya/republicans for being desperately backward when it comes to issues such as gays, stem cell research, evolution, etc. etc. and here you are rushing to defend the Catholic Church for its no lesser backwardness when it comes to the very same moral issues. Somehow don't understand how can you bash and defend the same topics at the same time. Just because of the fact of the Church being around for 20+ centuries does not justify its appallingly rigid stance.

[Edited 2005-04-20 06:39:02]
 
TACAA320
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RE: Commentary On New Pope

Wed Apr 20, 2005 1:41 pm

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 39):
Somehow don't understand how can you bash and defend the same topics at the same time. Just because of the fact of the Church being around for 20+ centuries does not justify its appallingly rigid stance.

Are you Roman Catholic?
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
clipperhawaii
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RE: Commentary On New Pope

Wed Apr 20, 2005 2:44 pm

Isn't it funny that some on here who are not catholic and hate almost everything about the church are preaching what we as Catholics should do and not do in our own faith?

That's rather silly of you don't you think?

Thanks for your opinions but honestly, it's our church not yours. Perhaps you can find the all mighty garlic clove and perhaps exalt the provenance that comes from said clove. LOL
"You Can't Beat The Experience"
 
NWA
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RE: Commentary On New Pope

Wed Apr 20, 2005 3:11 pm

Falcon84, for once I totally agree with you. The way I look at it, the Lords words have not changed, and do not, over the years. The bible condems gays. Sorry, but it's the turth. So why should tyhe pope be for gay marriage when the book he follows is aginst gays?

And to defend Falcon...not that I do often, a church and a government are two totally differnt things. The government has to follow trend, in ome ways, to the entire population. All religions, colors, sexs', sexualities, everything. the church has but one type of people to please: Catholics. I disagree with falcon on most issues, but on this one I have to agree.
23 victor, turn right heading 210, maintain 3000 till established, cleared ILS runwy 24.
 
jaysit
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RE: Commentary On New Pope

Wed Apr 20, 2005 3:38 pm

Just because modern societies have a rage for gay marriage, abortion-on-demand and the like, doesn't mean the Church should bend to those fads of the time.

It also doesn't mean it should be intrastringent on issues like birth control in overpopulated areas, or even in who should be priests.

Modern societies don't have a rage for gay marriage.
Modern societies recognize the inequities perpetrated by doctrinaire stances adopted through history.

As far as fads go, one can argue that feminism and the ordination of women and married men in the Church is also a fad of the time. On what theological ground could you ban gay marriage, yet permit the ordination of women and married men? None, because none exists.

Furthermore, gay marriage represents less of a moral conundrum for the Church than does artificial birth control which goes against the culture of life that the Church preaches. And under no theological ground could the Church say that its acceptable for dirt poor Africans to practice birth control and use condoms, but its not for affluent Europeans.

I'm sorry, but the Church - even in its intransigence - is far more consistent and in keeping with its own tenets than you appear to be.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
777236ER
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RE: Commentary On New Pope

Wed Apr 20, 2005 8:03 pm

Quoting Clipperhawaii (Reply 39):
Thanks for your opinions but honestly, it's our church not yours

When your Church covers up mass sexual abuse, it becomes everyone's problem.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
Falcon84
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RE: Commentary On New Pope

Wed Apr 20, 2005 9:14 pm

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 37):
Falcon,
are you some sort of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde by any chance??? I mean one day you are all out bashing Dumbya/republicans for being desperately backward when it comes to issues such as gays, stem cell research, evolution, etc. etc. and here you are rushing to defend the Catholic Church for its no lesser backwardness when it comes to the very same moral issues. Somehow don't understand how can you bash and defend the same topics at the same time. Just because of the fact of the Church being around for 20+ centuries does not justify its appallingly rigid stance.

Another "grab-bagger", who thinks, just because the times change, The Church should change it's basic core beliefs, and there, friend, is where you are wrong, not the church. So you don't have a problem with gay marriage, let's say, or abortion-that doesn't mean the Church changes it's teachings on it because of the fads of the day. A religious organization worth it's salt, doesn't simply change to reflect the time, because it would not stand the test of time if it simply blew in the wind and accepted things that the secular worlds accepts.

And you don't get it, do you? The Church has been around for 2000 years because IT HASN'T done what you want it to do-give into the secular fads of the day, like gay marriage and abortion-on-demand. It has stood the test of time because it has been fairly constant. The Church has changed drastically in the last 200 years, but it's kept, and should keep, many of it's core values, and should never give into people like yourself who want it to change simply because it doesn't reflect the secular world.

There's nothing backward about an institution that stay true to itself in the long run.

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 41):
Modern societies don't have a rage for gay marriage.

I beg to differ, Jaysit. Most of Europe, which is becoming a modern grab-bag for whatever goes, and a good portion of the U.S. is all for gay marriage. They absolutely do have a rage for it, or else some of the gay supporters on here wouldn't be bashing the Church as they do.

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 41):
As far as fads go, one can argue that feminism and the ordination of women and married men in the Church is also a fad of the time.

You have a point, but it also could be a way to reinvigorate the Church, and NOT change core faith issues like being against gay marriage, being against abortion, being against the rampant divorce rate. I don't see allowing a change in who teaches The Word as a means of changing what The Word is.

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 41):
Furthermore, gay marriage represents less of a moral conundrum for the Church than does artificial birth control which goes against the culture of life that the Church preaches.

There you're dead wrong, because you cannoat equate homosexual marriage with traditional marriage on the subject of procreation, can you? Homosexuals cannot procreate, can they, in a homosexual relationship, can they? But for me and my wife, when we were younger, and just starting out, we didn't want kids right away, so my wife used birth control, and I don't see, in this instance, where the Church has a say of when we had kids. And, when my wife had our last one at age 38, she got her tubes tied, and that's not the business of the Church, either.

But gay marriage, sorry to say, is not natural, nor is it around for the reason that straight marriage has been viewed for ages-for the act of procreation. The Church is right to stand against gay marriage, although I think it should be less harsh in trying to shun away homosexuals in the Church. Again, love the sinner, not the sin. You can welcome tham into the Church, which is, after all, there to save us sinners, without reconginzing their secular desire to be married.

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 41):
I'm sorry, but the Church - even in its intransigence - is far more consistent and in keeping with its own tenets than you appear to be.

I'm not an absolutist, Jaysit. I believe some change is needed in the spreading of the word, and in taking a balanced look at things like stem cell research. I don't believe that change is not needed on issues like homsexual unions and abortion. That doesn't make me inconsistent in any sense.

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 42):
When your Church covers up mass sexual abuse, it becomes everyone's problem.

Yess, 777236ER, to you, every priest is a pedophile, I know, which is a lie, and born out of your obvious hatred of the Church and anyone who has faith, I can see that. But if you're not Catholic, it's really none of your business, because you don't give a damn about the Church or it's members to begin with. You just want something to scream at about religion, that's all.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
dvk
Posts: 1017
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2000 12:18 am

RE: Commentary On New Pope

Wed Apr 20, 2005 9:25 pm

Boeing 7E7...Why don't you go sign up to join Mother Angelica's monastery? You're in no position to tell anyone who doesn't blindly accept everything the Catholic Church puts forth that he isn't Catholic. You're the ultimate religious hypocrite.
I'm not dumb. I just have a command of thoroughly useless information.
 
Delboy
Posts: 689
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2001 12:57 am

RE: Commentary On New Pope

Wed Apr 20, 2005 9:29 pm

Absloutely fantastic front page headline in this mornings Sun newspaper. There was a picture of the new Pope with his hands spread (in the way only a Pope can do) and the headline was Papa Ratzi. Classic, who thinks up these things.

The only good thing to come of all this is that he shouldn't reign as long as JP2. Sadly, as he was JP2's RH man, the policies employed by the previous post are likely to be extended thro the new Pope.

Good luck to him.
 
Klaus
Posts: 20594
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Commentary On New Pope

Wed Apr 20, 2005 9:32 pm

Falcon84: Most of Europe, which is becoming a modern grab-bag for whatever goes,

The european secularisation and the current changes going on on our continent have a long and often bloody history; You´re making a severe mistake summarily disregarding a very complex and indeed substantial change just because you can´t be bothered to know about its roots and background.


Falcon84: But gay marriage, sorry to say, is not natural, nor is it around for the reason that straight marriage has been viewed for ages-for the act of procreation.

"Not natural" and "has been viewed as" are two very different things.

The first one is obviously false - gay people (even animals) have very much the same tendencies to have stable relationships (or not) as anybody else. If that wasn´t the case, the whole discussion wouldn´t exist.

The second one simply gives testament to the long and odious history of ignorance, aggressive conformism and irrational hatred based on misguided doctrine in the matter.

Sorry, but you´re just wrong here, and the catholic church with you. This is not an arbitrary fad. It´s a matter of human rights and unjustifiable discrimination.
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Commentary On New Pope

Wed Apr 20, 2005 9:42 pm

I think the basic argument is to whom does the church belong:
The clerical hierarchy in Rome or the worshippers.The worshippers in Europe and North America (and not just there, e.g. in the Philippines the growing educated middle class people often disregard the teachings of the church concerning birth control and the people have a very liberal attitude towards homosexuals) often have different attitude towards life´s problems than the academic clerics in Rome.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: Commentary On New Pope

Wed Apr 20, 2005 9:44 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 46):
You´re making a severe mistake summarily disregarding a very complex and indeed substantial change just because you can´t be bothered to know about its roots and background.

Wasn't even trying to get into it's roots or background, Klaus. That could take up a 500 page book, I would wager. But I stand by what I said, whatever it's roots and background.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 46):
This is not an arbitrary fad. It´s a matter of human rights and unjustifiable discrimination.

It's not a matter of human rights, or discrimination, within a Church. It's a matter of keeping faith on teachings that transcend the year 2005. And the teachings of this Church, and of many, say homosexuality is wrong, and that marriage is between a man and a woman. Nothing should stop homosexuals from having civil marriages, but to say that a Church forbids it within the context of it's teachings, is some kind of violation of "human rights" is patently absurd, my friend.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
JGPH1A
Posts: 15080
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:36 pm

RE: Commentary On New Pope

Wed Apr 20, 2005 9:51 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 48):
It's not a matter of human rights, or discrimination, within a Church. It's a matter of keeping faith on teachings that transcend the year 2005.

Maybe not, but in a contest between human rights and religious dogma, guess who wins ? People change, beliefs change, values change - this has happened throughout history. And if established religion is unable to deal with that, established religion will eventually pass into history, like communism and belief in a geo-centric universe.
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