rootsair
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Armenian Genocide

Mon Apr 25, 2005 3:14 am

I wanted to open up a thread on the Armenian genocide. I am very surprised no one has mentioned it before.

...or on the other and it does not surprise me !This genocide has only been recognised by nations in the last yars. Why take so long to rcognise the turkish massacre of 1.5 million people iuncluding women and children !!! The turks, who still don't want to recognise anything to the point of breaking relationships with countries that do recognise the genocide acted like beasts.

I myself an not Armenian, but I am a human and i would like to give a tribute to those victims 90 years after it was started off ...Rest in peace and let god bless you all !
A man without the knowledge of his past history,culture and origins is like a tree without roots
 
RJ100
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RE: Armenian Genocide

Mon Apr 25, 2005 4:46 am

You are right RootsAir. I think Mrs. Calmy-Rey (Swiss minister for foreign affairs) mentioned the Armenian genocide once last year and then Turkey almost stopped all official relations with Switzerland.

Turkey becomes a very important economical market and this is why a lot of countries dont want to "mess it up" with Turkey.

Same goes with China, a country that breaks international law every day. Noone cares because China is economically important.

I know this happened a long time ago and it is wrong to make today's Turkey responsible for that. But it's coward from the official state just to deny what happened.

Regards,
RJ100
none
 
airxliban
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RE: Armenian Genocide

Mon Apr 25, 2005 4:50 am

Indeed...the Armenian Genocide was a tragic chapter in the history of the 20th century and is often ignored and not given the recognition that it deserves.
PARIS, FRANCE...THE BEIRUT OF EUROPE.
 
dl021
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RE: Armenian Genocide

Mon Apr 25, 2005 4:53 am

I know of the Armenian genocide, and feel it belongs in the same category with every other one in history. It is less remembered now, by the majority of people in the world, because it is overshadowed by the erasing of European Judaism during the Second World War, and others since then.

Turkey doesn't wish to discuss it because they don't want anyone talking about something a previous incarnation of their country did, fearing a heightening of attention on this will impact their dealings with the Kurds..among other things.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
texan
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RE: Armenian Genocide

Mon Apr 25, 2005 5:06 am

The Armenian Genocide is a black eye on the world that we have tried to hide with make up. Armenia had been in confict with most of its neighbors off and on since the 2nd Century CE. They were the first nation to officially make Christianity their national religion, a religion now recognised as the Armenian Orthodox Church. Armenia has the blessing and the curse to be located in the breadbasket of the world in the heart of the Caucasus. Because of the natural resources of Armenia, Azerbaijan, and Georgia, the area has been attacked or there were plans to conquer the area by every military leader bent on world domination since before Alexander the Great. It has also been the site of many civil wars and power struggles between the nations, which continue today: Armenia is currently involved in a struggle with Azerbaijan over some disputed territories in the region.

The main problem came when competing religions arose around the area. Georgia is an Orthodox Christian nation, but not Armenian Orthodox, so they do not get along very well. Armenia's other neighbors, Azerbaijan, Iran, and Turkey are all Islamic countries. Armenia has never been on good terms with Islamic nations. The Armenian Genocide occured for a couple of specific reasons. First off, there was lots of unrest in the Caucasus during the time, as Russia was being split up and all three Caucasus nations were attempting to split from Russia to become their own republics. The three nations clashed with each other over borders and other territorial disputes. But the kicker came when, during World War I, The Ottoman Empire allied themselves with the Axis Powers. Azerbaijan then started supporting The Ottomans, as they believed they had a fair shot of maintaining their independence with a strong Muslim ally. Armenia felt trapped between three hostile powers. Though their leaders did not officially ally with any side, Armenian troops pretty much decided en masse to ally with the Russians and attack the Ottomans. In retaliaion for the Armenian army becoming involved, the Ottoman Empire decided the Armenians needed to be taught a lesson and therefore slaughtered over 1 million innocent civilians.

Unfortunately, few countries recognize this event as genocide, with some still refusing to even admit that it ever ocurred! Thank you for bringing up this topic, RootsAir. Armenia is a truly fascinating country that has been laid low many times by tragedy.

Texan
"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
 
Klaus
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RE: Armenian Genocide

Mon Apr 25, 2005 5:32 am

The german Bundestag and senior state representatives have just officially recognized a german co-responsibility for the genocide committed against the armenian population.

Germany under Wilhelm II was an ally of the Ottoman Empire and basically approved/supported the massacre for tactical reasons.

The offended reaction from Ankara is not a good sign. It seems the official Turkey still can´t deal with the darker parts of its own past.
 
OD720
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RE: Armenian Genocide

Mon Apr 25, 2005 6:21 am

My grandparents were survivors of the genocide.

I don't understand what Turkey's strategy is regarding the genocide. Will they keep on denying it? Armenia and Turkey are neighbors now and have to have normal relations. Turkey should admit it and go forward instead of threatening bilateral relations with nations who bring up the issue.
 
iakobos
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RE: Armenian Genocide

Mon Apr 25, 2005 9:03 am

Quoting OD720 (Reply 6):
I don't understand what Turkey's strategy is regarding the genocide

Turkey is not done yet with its metamorphosis from a (once very large) multi-ethnic Ottoman empire into a modern unitary Turkish state with a geopolitical weight that would be appropriate with its size, strategic location and its large and fast growing population.

Be it military or civil, the leaders have been consistent in the pursuit of a "great modern Turkey" for the last 80 years, nobody can deny that, especially in Washington which has very largely contributed to make the Turkish armed forces a power to be reckoned with, and accessorily to be scared of.

This profound transformation cannot be done with silk gloves, nor can it be obstructed by much consideration for human rights or recent history hiccups.

Successive Turkish leaderships believed that everything can be bargained and they pay a lot of attention to play their cards very close to their chests.

Yes they will continue to deny that there was (?) a deliberate state-planned orchestration to clean the country of the Armenians (and some others), because that does not fit in the great build-up of a strong nationalist conscience.
As Tayyip Erdogan, the Turkish PM declared: "there is nothing shameful in our history". Clear enough ?

For Turkey, the "incidents" (cf.) were a retaliation after their rebellion, their siding with the Russians and their mass killings of Muslims.

Turkish fellows might confirm or not, but as far as I know, schoolbooks refer to the "decision to relocate the Armenians was a very right one", and "there were incidents but most Armenians died from contagious diseases".

German fellows might have some inputs since the (1915) reports from the numerous German consuls in Turkey to the Kaizer's embassy in Istanbul were released very recently.

If I am correct, there is a new draft criminal code which "provides" 10 years in jail for anyone acting against "the fundamental interests of the State".
Stated examples include: "claiming the 1915 events were a genocide" and "claiming the Turkish army should leave Cyprus".
Understandably, this does not go well down some throats in Brussels....initial talks for Turkey's EU adhesion will/should start in October.

Note: I did not say there was a "genocide", this is for the (preferably neutral) historians to conclude or not, based on the substantial evidence of non-committed witnesses in the framework of their diplomatic duties (the German consuls).
 
iakobos
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RE: Armenian Genocide

Mon Apr 25, 2005 9:11 am

Quoting Texan (Reply 4):
Armenia has the blessing and the curse to be located in the breadbasket of the world in the heart of the Caucasus.

Excuse me Texan, but what kind of bread would that be ?

You got something wrong in the chronology, in 1915 there were no Armenian, Georgian and Azerbaijani nations.
The centre-east and east of the Turkish Empire was named "the Armenian provinces".
 
prosa
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RE: Armenian Genocide

Mon Apr 25, 2005 9:27 am

Quoting Iakobos (Reply 7):
If I am correct, there is a new draft criminal code which "provides" 10 years in jail for anyone acting against "the fundamental interests of the State".
Stated examples include: "claiming the 1915 events were a genocide" and "claiming the Turkish army should leave Cyprus".
Understandably, this does not go well down some throats in Brussels....initial talks for Turkey's EU adhesion will/should start in October.

I don't see how Turkey will have any chance of EU admission whatsoever if those provisions are in its criminal code. They are clear restrictions on the freedom of speech, and as such are totally contrary to EU principles.
Turkey should own up to its past and admit its responsibility for the Armenian genocide. After all, it happened when Turkey was a completely different nation than it is today.
"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
 
iakobos
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RE: Armenian Genocide

Mon Apr 25, 2005 9:46 am

Peter,

At first glance your remark is valid, but... if you were sitting at a negotiation table you would have nothing to negotiate.
The more cards in your sleeves, the more you can bargain.

In this case, the idea is that every step towards harmonization with EU principles will have to be balanced/compensated by something.
 
prosa
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RE: Armenian Genocide

Mon Apr 25, 2005 10:01 am

Quoting Iakobos (Reply 10):
Peter,
At first glance your remark is valid, but... if you were sitting at a negotiation table you would have nothing to negotiate.
The more cards in your sleeves, the more you can bargain.
In this case, the idea is that every step towards harmonization with EU principles will have to be balanced/compensated by something.

I'm not sure I follow ... while I'm not particularly familiar with EU admissions requirements, it's probably a safe assumption that laws criminalizing free speech such as the Turkish one mentioned (10 years in prison for referring to the Armenian massacre as genocide) are wholly unacceptable and non-negotiable.
"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
 
iakobos
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RE: Armenian Genocide

Mon Apr 25, 2005 10:23 am

Sure they are unacceptable and non-negotiable, still, when they will sit at the big table, every move from Turkey seen as "positive" by the EU will weigh its weight in the balance. You cannot expect them to give up a host of "non-negotiable" points without some "nice gestures" in fair return.

Other point, this draft law is also a buffer in front of the genocide.
Give up on the (would be) law and preserve your right to deny the genocide. (?)

Turkey will come heavily equipped in Brussels, no doubt about that.
They know also that there are a hundred points of (serious) contention, and they are working on building up a few more.
Nobody can expect them to give up everything, if they concede a little half it would be seen as a tremendous progress and everyone would be big smile.
...the bazaar arithmetics...
 
texan
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RE: Armenian Genocide

Mon Apr 25, 2005 10:33 am

Quoting Iakobos (Reply 8):
Excuse me Texan, but what kind of bread would that be ?

You got something wrong in the chronology, in 1915 there were no Armenian, Georgian and Azerbaijani nations.
The centre-east and east of the Turkish Empire was named "the Armenian provinces".

They were not independent nations at the time, but they had their own national boundaries from before their time in the Russian Empire and the Turkish assumption of control. Conflicts still occurred between the different peoples of the area.

Texan
"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
 
ltbewr
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RE: Armenian Genocide

Mon Apr 25, 2005 12:26 pm

There are several ads placed each year in major newspapers like the NY Times by the Armenian community in the USA to remind us of the terrible destruction of their people and the continuing ignorance by Turkey of their part in this genocide. Unfortunally, our school children in the USA don't learn much about the Amernian genocide due to it's occurance during WWI. I have read some stories of what the Armenians' went through and it was a sick and brutal situation. One can probably find balaned histories about it on the web.
The Armenians had their own disporia with them going to other areas of the middle east, Europe and the USA. In the USA, many ended up in the NYC area but some have moved on to other areas of the USA as well.
As noted above, there is no doubt Turkey's continued attitude on this issue will or should complicate diplomacy and EC membership. For the USA, our leaders and diplomats try to ignore this issue as to Turkey due to their involvement with NATO, Turkey's fears of Kurdish independence, the need for Turkey to help out in the war in Iraq and to keep oil flowing in the pipelines that go through their country from Iraq and the Caspian Sea region.
 
edka
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RE: Armenian Genocide

Mon Apr 25, 2005 5:28 pm

Quoting Texan (Reply 4):

The main problem came when competing religions arose around the area. Georgia is an Orthodox Christian nation, but not Armenian Orthodox, so they do not get along very well.

Texan
your description is pretty accurate, apart from the above statement... Georgia has never been in war or even indirect confict with Armenia, there is a very large armenian community living in Georgia and as far as i'm aware there has always been mutual respect between the two countries/nations.
EDKA
 
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yyz717
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RE: Armenian Genocide

Mon Apr 25, 2005 8:36 pm

This genocide happened 90 years ago. It's really time to move on. There is not a single Turk alive involved in the genocide, nor is there a single Armenian alive with close family who were lost. It's time for Armenians and Turks to move past this.

I am neither Turkish nor Armenian, but realistically here are the "facts":
1. Armenians claim 1.5M Armenians were killed. Turks deny it. Realistically, while there is evidence of a genocide, the 1.5M figure cannot be confirmed. It may be lower. Armenia was then (indeed, still is) an impoverished 3rd world country in which estimates of populations and massacres could never be accurate, particularly in 1915.
2. Only 1 Western nation has acknowledged that a "genocide" occurred and that was due to extreme pressure from a vocal Armenian minority. The reluctance of most civilized nations to concur that a genocide happened is the lack of incontrovertable evidence and the fact that it truly is ancient history.

Armenians will gain nothing from pressing a 90-yo issue that can never be confirmed independently.

It's time for Armenians to move on. They can start by trying to get along with their Muslim neighbours. 90-yo grudges will solve nothing. Israel and Germany maintain very good relations 60 years after the holocaust; it's time for Armenia and Turkey to do the same after 90 years.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
RJ100
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RE: Armenian Genocide

Mon Apr 25, 2005 9:40 pm

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 16):
2. Only 1 Western nation has acknowledged that a "genocide" occurred and that was due to extreme pressure from a vocal Armenian minority. The reluctance of most civilized nations to concur that a genocide happened is the lack of incontrovertable evidence and the fact that it truly is ancient history.

Disagree with you on that point. Only reason why most nations do not blame what happened is because they fear economical problems with Turkey.

Regards,
RJ100
none
 
iakobos
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RE: Armenian Genocide

Tue Apr 26, 2005 1:59 am

Yyz, a genocide is not about figures, it is about a deliberate program orchestrated by a country leadership to wipe out a specific group of the population.
Does not matter if the victims were 1.5 million as stated by Armenians or anything between 200,000 and 1 million as stated by Turks (official versions quote 500 to 600,000).

The main leaders of the Young Turks (CUP) party in place in 1915 were tried in absentia, and found guilty on various counts.
All three major figures involved in the Armenian "incidents" died abroad, from non-natural causes, in the years immediately after.
How ironic it is to find that they have their mausoleums (not simply graves) today in a cemetery in Istanbul ?

In addition to the European Parliament, Belgium, Canada, Cyprus, France, Greece, Poland and Russia have officially recognized it as a genocide.
Many Heads of State and high authorities have done it also on an individual
basis, avoiding thereby the automatic Turkish threat to break diplomatic and commercial relations with their respective countries.

1915 is not ancient history, many parents and all grand parents of present day Armenians were part of this episode, so for them the chapter will not be closed until History of the period 1896-1923 will be conform to the facts.
 
Klaus
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RE: Armenian Genocide

Wed Apr 27, 2005 9:30 am

Yyz717: It's time for Armenians to move on. They can start by trying to get along with their Muslim neighbours. 90-yo grudges will solve nothing. Israel and Germany maintain very good relations 60 years after the holocaust; it's time for Armenia and Turkey to do the same after 90 years.

You seem to be oblivious to the fact that Israel would never have agreed to any kind of reconciliation if Germany hadn´t fully recognized the past.

And that´s the only way Turkey can deal with its own.
 
wassch71
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RE: Armenian Genocide

Wed Apr 27, 2005 11:34 am

The last years of the Ottoman Empire were terrible in the Near East as a whole. In Lebanon only, it is estimated that 100,000 civilians died during WWI as a result of the conflict and famine, out of a population of 450,000 at the time. However, the Armenian genocide remains, by its nature and the number of victims the darkest of all chapters in this black chronicle.
Turkish governments have sought to distance their country from this terrible legacy at all cost, including denial, and have been very constant in doing so despite the big changes that occured in Turkey over the past 50 years. Having witnessed some of the celebrations Turkey threw for the Ottoman Empire's 700 anniversary back in 1999, I could only feel how incoherent these policies were: celebrating the Empire's faded grandeur for the sake of national ego on one hand, denying its misgivings by fear of inheriting the responsability for them on the other.
MEA...Like No Other
 
wing
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RE: Armenian Genocide

Thu Apr 28, 2005 3:42 am

Klaus,

Do not dare to compare what Germans did to Jew's and what happened to Armenians at 1915.Nazi's killed the Jew's deliberetaly,systematically to wipe them out from the earth surface.

The Ottomans "relocated" the Armenians to prevent them to help Russians who were at war with Turks,Armenians betrayed to Ottomans,fought against them on the Russian side,their gangs killed many Turkish villagers.The government decided to relocate them to end their help to Russia.

There are two things I want you to take into account before accusing Turks.First the total number of Armenians(as of 1914 count)was 1million 250 thousand.(Not millions as some claim)All around the Turkish soil.The number of the "relocated" are 800 000.And not all of them lost their lives on the harsh way conditions.

The second is,even today we have a large community of Armenians living in Turkey.Don't you think if that was a clean up of Armenians,others living in the westerly states(they were around 450 000) should also be killed?Did Nazi's cared about which part of the country were the Jews from?They killled them in gas chambers solely because they are Jewish.

That is clearly not a "GENOCIDE".Call it the circumstances of the time but not an ethnic cleansing.If it was there shouldnt be any Armenians living today in Turkish soil,most of them never even lost their previllages of not being Muslim.

Finally Turkey has opened up the national archives of the Ottomans,ýts free to all who wants to learn the truth.On the other hand Armenia doesnt.Do they anything to hide?Or is it because they really have anyting to proove.

Armenians tried TERRORISM at first by attacking Turkish Ambassadors and Turkýsh interests worlwide by the group called Asala.

After the collapse of this terrorist group,they are trying to use the Europe(who are desperately looking for excuses to reject Turkeys bid for EU)

If you dig into the pages of history,you will find blood on the hands of every nation in the world,I really dont understand the gain of bringing this issue over and over again infront of Turkey,which doest exist at the time.I really dont understand why I have to pay for something happened 90 years ago.
follow me on my facebook page" captain wing's journey log"
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Armenian Genocide

Thu Apr 28, 2005 4:03 am

The Turks are starting to talk about it:

http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=3842536

"In a groundbreaking if modest gesture, Turkey's mildly Islamist prime minister, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, made a joint call last month with the main opposition leader, Deniz Baykal, for an impartial study by historians from both sides of the genocide debate. His reason, he said, was that he did not want “future generations to live under the shadow of continued hatred and resentment.” He believes that the findings will show there was no genocide."
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
OD720
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RE: Armenian Genocide

Thu Apr 28, 2005 5:52 am

Wing,

What kind of threat did the women and children and the elderly represent to the Ottomans and why did they relocate them?

Let's assume that the plan was actually to relocate them, were the deserts in Syria the ideal place for the Armenian civilians. Don't tell me that the Turks didn't know that these people will die in the desert.
 
pelican
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RE: Armenian Genocide

Thu Apr 28, 2005 6:34 am

Just as a side note Hitler was well aware of the events in Turkey in 1915. Nobody cared about the Armenians and nobody remembered what happened. So nobody would care about the Jews...

pelican

[Edited 2005-04-27 23:41:19]
 
iakobos
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RE: Armenian Genocide

Thu Apr 28, 2005 7:04 am

Quoting Wing (Reply 21):
First the total number of Armenians(as of 1914 count)was 1million 250 thousand.(Not millions as some claim)

Where did you find these figures Wing ?

450k in the West.... where would the "West" be in this scenario ?

Quoting Wing (Reply 21):
After the collapse of this terrorist group,they are trying to use the Europe(who are desperately looking for excuses to reject Turkeys bid for EU)

Desperately looking for excuses ?
Why would the EU need excuses if it wanted to reject Turkey ?
Is this the message spread in Ankara ?
Why does the EU start admission talks next October ?
Why is it expected that Turkey could become a member within 12-15 years ?

Quoting Wing (Reply 21):
I really dont understand why I have to pay for something happened 90 years ago

To pay ?? did anyone ask anybody to pay something, to restitute land, to offer compensation, to voice an apology ? I don't think so.
History is a judge whom can only sentence the memory of the living.
 
wing
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RE: Armenian Genocide

Thu Apr 28, 2005 10:59 am

The population numbers are from the Ottoman archives(which are opened to historians by Turkish government)its the result of the population count from 1914.This subject on the newspapers everyday here in Turkey,Armenian diaspora claiming death numbers from 1 to 2 million and trying to convince people of today who has no clue about the history.

The total number of Armenian population in Ottoman soil was 1 250 Million,800 K was living around east of Anatolia,(todays Turkey) and the rest were living in the west of Anatolia(todays Turkey) most of them in Ýstanbul,Ýzmir etc.

More and more people every day starting to believe that EU creating funny excuses to reject Turkey.

OD720,
The relocation plan was actually part of an agreement called "ayastafenos" between Turks and Russians(which were fighting constanly at that time).The Armenians were attacking the locals(Turks,Cherkes and Kurds) with the gangs that they created,and started to create a big disturbance.The number of Turks killed that time were not lower than the number of Armenians died on the way.

I strongly recomend everybody who wants have an opinion about this subject,read the history from fair sources,government archives of Ottomans which are open,search them.You will easily understand that this was not a deliberate act to wipe Armenians out from the Earth surface.No one denies that people died at those day,lots of people from both sides are dead.We should leave them to rest in piece in the past.
follow me on my facebook page" captain wing's journey log"
 
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yyz717
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RE: Armenian Genocide

Thu Apr 28, 2005 1:11 pm

Wing has a good point. Why should modern-day Turks pay for some alleged genocide that happened 90 years ago? Armenia was an impoverished nation with ill-defined borders and an illiterate populace in 1915. The true extent of any carnage will never be known.

You have to wonder whether this constant drone from the worldwide Armenian community is nothing more than misplaced national pride or anti-islamic sentiment. Armenia has accomplished little in the last 90 years as a nation and seems to be stuck in ancient historical conflicts that have no place in the modern world.

As Wing has pointed out, there is a Turkish viewpoint that is markedly different to the Armenian one. Which is more correct? Turkey is more prosperous and more democratic than Armenia, hence that gives the Turkish viewpoint some credibility.

It's time to move on Armenia. The world is sick of your moaning about this issue.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Armenian Genocide

Thu Apr 28, 2005 3:17 pm

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 27):
Turkey is more prosperous and more democratic than Armenia, hence that gives the Turkish viewpoint some credibility.

I always though that facts and evidence determine one's credibility not what is their GDP.
 
pelican
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RE: Armenian Genocide

Thu Apr 28, 2005 4:24 pm

Quoting Wing (Reply 26):
I strongly recomend everybody who wants have an opinion about this subject,read the history from fair sources,government archives of Ottomans which are open,search them.

You're kidding, right? That's like claiming the suspect will tell the truth during an investigation.

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 27):
Wing has a good point. Why should modern-day Turks pay for some alleged genocide that happened 90 years ago? Armenia was an impoverished nation with ill-defined borders and an illiterate populace in 1915. The true extent of any carnage will never be known.

1. Who said Turkey should pay something. This is not about money.
2. There was no Armenian nation in 1915. These Armenians were part of the Ottoman empire like several other ethnic groups.

pelican
 
Klaus
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RE: Armenian Genocide

Thu Apr 28, 2005 7:07 pm

Wing, why hush it up, then? Why prohibit an open discussion if there isn´t anything to hide?

Experience has taught us that such cases where you have consistent witness accounts even decades later very rarely turn out to be just "evil propaganda lies".

Todays turks have nothing to lose in openly dealing with this part of the past; They´re not to blame and can only gain respect by facing the facts.

And if an open investigation should come to the verifiable conclusion that it hasn´t happened, wouldn´t that be even better? So why the stalling and the embarrassed silence for so long?

Good to see that things start moving now (even if after much prodding from abroad).
 
SXFAN
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RE: Armenian Genocide

Thu Apr 28, 2005 8:06 pm

I will not comment on the Armenian issue because i do not know the exact facts but if we assume that Turkey will finally recognize such a genocide (again i can't tell if it is a genocide or not). Won't the Armenians sue the Turkish gvrmnt for compensations about lost properties, businesses, etc?
By bringing this up i want everybody here to understand that Turkey may actually loose money and fame by being dragged to Hague.
 
iakobos
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RE: Armenian Genocide

Thu Apr 28, 2005 11:27 pm

Wing,

What you do not seem to grasp, and I assume most of your country-fellows, is that, for the world at large, it does not matter if there was an Armenian genocide or not. We only expect History to be as accurate as possible.
If there was, let it be written, if not let it be written, but in all cases let's bury the ghost.

For Turkey, it is a matter of honor.
For Armenians, it is a matter of historical acknowledgement.

The first will not bent, they have decided to freeze once and for all the version of history they teach to children since 4 generations.
The latter will not bent, they and their descendance will continue asking for recognition for all generations to come.

As Klaus said, you have nothing to lose dealing with the past, the only element that runs the risk of a dent is ultra-nationalistic pride. Nothing else.

It would indeed be seen as a tremendously positive act if Turkey would make all data available to an independent and scholarly commission to deal with the issue and come up with a conclusion that would be deemed once and for all historically accurate, including also the possibility that no clear conclusion could be drawn.

If there is nothing to be afraid of, why should they put the brakes ?
 
luisde8cd
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RE: Armenian Genocide

Thu Apr 28, 2005 11:44 pm

I read yesterday in a local newspaper an article regarding the genocide.

It said that a Venezuelan General joined the Otoman Army and achieved many victories, but he also participated in the genocide. The article quoted a fragment of the general's diary where he says:

"Our leaders ordered us to take over the armenian village and leave no one alive, no armenian could be left alive on earth."
 
bahadir
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RE: Armenian Genocide

Fri Apr 29, 2005 12:05 am

What Armenians got exposed to in 1915s was exactly what Turks got exposed to in 1870s through 1914 in Balkans, Crete, Syria, etc.
Remember the fact that we are talking 90 years ago, it was a different world back then. Ethnic relocations were "OK" at the time.
During the "independende war" of Greece hundreds of thousands of Turks got slaugthered in Crete, many more had to leave their houses, fields to flee back to Anatolia.

The reason you don't hear about this is because those Turks fled to the wron place. Have they gone to England, USA or any other part of the world where the western media is based right now it would have been a different picture.

The similar thing happened when Greek Army invaded Turkey in 1920s. The brother of my grandmother was taken away from the house and never seen after this.

I am not approving what happened to many of the Armenians. They were surely killed during the "relocation" process, but the similar thing happened to Turks who have been attacked by Armenian militia.

Before some ignorant makes this thing Muslim vs. Christian argument, the similar thing was done to the Turks by Arabs in WWI.

Let's not forget, every nation in the world has something to be ashamed of even the so called human rights advocates Western ones, such as England, USA, French, etc..
Earthbound misfit I
 
pelican
Posts: 2429
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 9:51 pm

RE: Armenian Genocide

Fri Apr 29, 2005 1:18 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 30):
Todays turks have nothing to lose in openly dealing with this part of the past; They´re not to blame and can only gain respect by facing the facts.

I completly agree.


Bahadir you're right when you say bad things happened to Turks before. But does this justify the murdering of thousands of Armenian civilians? According to your logic the murdering of Turks was justified because they occupied the Balkan before.

Quoting Bahadir (Reply 34):

I am not approving what happened to many of the Armenians. They were surely killed during the "relocation" process, but the similar thing happened to Turks who have been attacked by Armenian militia.



What Armenian militia do you mean?
And there is a difference between a, surely brutal, relocation and a planned extermination of an ethnic group.

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 33):

"Our leaders ordered us to take over the armenian village and leave no one alive, no armenian could be left alive on earth."

This is one among many different indications that the events of 1915 were more than "just" a relocation.

pelican
 
Klaus
Posts: 20578
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Armenian Genocide

Fri Apr 29, 2005 1:30 am

If turks have been wronged, that deserves to be investigated just as much. But I´m not aware of any prohibitions to do that anywhere.
 
bahadir
Posts: 1281
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2001 4:57 pm

RE: Armenian Genocide

Fri Apr 29, 2005 2:23 am

Pelican,
I am not trying to justify the killing of innocent civilians. Turk, Armenian, German, Zulu, Indian, etc. etc. On the other hand let us not forget about the "western bias" about this issue.

Right before and right after WWI, Ottoman Empire was THE fruit to be picked from the tree. Germans on one side Britain on the other wanted to get their hands on theis piece of land. It's a known fact that Armenian militia was armed and conducting sweeping motions of Turks in the neighborhoods, killing innocent Turks. For some reason no one pays attention to that.

There is also known fact that Turks were massacred in Crete in 1908 revolution. The early part of 20th century saw a lot of Turks moving to Anatolia from Balkans and Greece to Anatolia because of ethnic cleansing that took place.

What i am trying to say is , if Turkey has to pay for the Armenian loss of lives, is Greece, Bulgaria, Albania, Macedonia ready to pay for the ethnic cleansing of the Turks around the same time?

Once again, Armenian Genocide is well known because of the diaspora in US and France.. Of course the lack of their own country and their own history by the Turks contributes to their lack of diaspora like activities in Europe where they are plentiful.

This Armenian Genocide issue has become popolar, not because people care, but Europe needs an excuse to deny EU membership to Turkey, when Germany, France, England is having a hard time by accepting their own massacres..

Is Greece ready to apologize for the invation of Anatolia? Is Bulgaria ready for the thousands of Turks that they killed in 1980s and ethnically cleansed during that period ?

I didn't think so..
Earthbound misfit I
 
iakobos
Posts: 3255
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2003 6:22 pm

RE: Armenian Genocide

Fri Apr 29, 2005 10:04 pm

Quoting Bahadir (Reply 37):
This Armenian Genocide issue has become popolar, not because people care, but Europe needs an excuse to deny EU membership to Turkey, when Germany, France, England is having a hard time by accepting their own massacres..

Popular ? not. Look at the number of posts and views of this thread and you will understand. Ask around you if the man in the street knows what this is all about.

Why would the EU need an excuse Bahadir ? would you care to develop this a little ?

Which country is having a hard time accepting its own wrongdoings ?



Quoting Bahadir (Reply 37):
Is Greece ready to apologize for the invation of Anatolia?

What invasion is this ?
The occupation of the Smyrna (Izmir) area in 1917 in conformity with the agreement of St Jean de Maurienne, or the confirmation of the same by the Treaty of Sèvres in 1920 with formal and definitive annexion allowed within 5 years conditioned to the holding of a popular referendum, or the extension of the Greek occupation area due initially to the withdrawal of French and Italian troops (which left most of their weaponry in the vacuum), or the military move towards Ankara (end '20-begin '21) ?

You seem to overlook the fact that the Ottomans were the invaders back in the 14th, 15th and 16th Centuries, and that Balkan and Near-East ethnic groups fought for their independence from the Sultan.
 
bahadir
Posts: 1281
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2001 4:57 pm

RE: Armenian Genocide

Fri Apr 29, 2005 11:31 pm

Iakobos,
I am sorry , Greek army was welcomed with open arms in western Anatolia, Brits were welcomed in Istanb.. opps Constantinople.. French were loved in the southeastern Turkey and Lebanon and Brits of course were loved by the people of what today is Syria, Iraq, Saudi Arabia.

As a Turk I apologize for killing entire Armenian population, I am sorry for the Greeks, Slavs we killed on 14th century. I also apologize for taking Cyprus in 15th century.

We are also sorry for invading Istan... opps once again Constantinople.. I also apologize for staying in what today is Bulgaria and Greece for close to 500 years..

We now shall pack out bags and go to Central Asia that we should have never left at the first place..  Smile
Earthbound misfit I

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