jcs17
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Fifth Anniversary Of The Elian Gonzalez Fiasco

Tue Apr 26, 2005 2:32 pm

Today marks the fifth anniversary of former attorney general Janet Reno and former president Bill Clinton doing the most noble of tasks, sending the SWAT team into Elian's relatives' house in Miami, "rescue" Elian Gonzalez and send him back to Cuba. Why was it so noble you ask? Well, a communist dictator demanded he be returned to his father (who Elian and his mother had little contact at all with). Today, Elian Gonzalez is part of Cuban propaganda, how they got over on the United States. He's a trophy of Fidel's. Not only that, but he gets to live on a magical little island ninety miles south of Florida that does not have free speech, free press, elections, apartheid (yep...racism is alive and well in Cuba), has a corrupt government, and a standard of living far below that of America.

Here's an interesting question, do you really believe that the liberals would've been protesting so vehemently about Elian staying America if he was a black South African returning to an apartheid-era South Africa? What if he was a Jew being sent back to Nazi Germany? I'm not trying to play the race card here, but do really think that the Reverend Jesse Jackson would've been begging to send a black kid back to South Africa?

I know a lot of you are going to say so what. Let's put it this way, knowing what we know about Cuba, would you rather go back to a father you barely even knew in a communist dictatorship or would you rather stay in a free America with your relatives.

America should be ashamed of its actions five years ago today.
America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
 
Mir
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RE: Fifth Anniversary Of The Elian Gonzalez Fiasco

Tue Apr 26, 2005 4:19 pm

I don't really remember all the details of the case, but I'm going to play devil's advocate for a moment.

Quoting JCS17 (Thread starter):
Today, Elian Gonzalez is part of Cuban propaganda, how they got over on the United States. He's a trophy of Fidel's.

If he had stayed here, he would have been part of American propaganda, and would have been a trophy for the Cuban-American population of Miami. The street does run both ways.

Quoting JCS17 (Thread starter):
and a standard of living far below that of America.

According to the CIA factbook, Cuba has literacy and life expectancy rates that are similar to the US's, much lower AIDS rates, etc. There is not nearly as much money in Cuba as there is in the US, and it's pretty clear that the US is a better country to live in, but Cuba would seem to be a better option than some other countries in the world (most of Africa comes to mind).

Quoting JCS17 (Thread starter):
Not only that, but he gets to live on a magical little island ninety miles south of Florida that does not have free speech, free press, elections, apartheid (yep...racism is alive and well in Cuba),

Hadn't heard about apartheid there. Got any links? Not that I'm doubting you (well, I guess I am in a way, but I'm interested in more information).

Come down to it, and this is going to sound sort of strange, but I don't think that there was much reason for him to be in the country over any other immigrant. His father wanted him back, and that is his legal judgement to make (is this starting to sound like the Schiavo case to anyone else?). And while it would be nice if the US could take in every person that showed up on it's shores, we can't. And so a good portion of them get sent home.

[/devil's advocate]

I'll need to look up the case some more.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Fifth Anniversary Of The Elian Gonzalez Fiasco

Tue Apr 26, 2005 4:24 pm

Errrm - weren't they just upholding the law, and returning the child to his father ? The ugly part of the whole affair was Cuban exiles and his mother's money-grubbing family holding this kid hostage so they could appear on Oprah, while depriving him of his only surviving parent. It was pretty sick.
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Schoenorama
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RE: Fifth Anniversary Of The Elian Gonzalez Fiasco

Tue Apr 26, 2005 9:08 pm

In other news, international terrorist Luis Posada Carriles, who is still wanted in Venezuela for the bombing of a Cubana Airlines plane in 1976 that killed 73 people, has been able to enter the US without any anti-terrorism alarmbells going off. He currenlty lives in Florida as a free man. The facts that his anti-Castro terror activities were sponsored by the CIA back in the seventies plus the fact that George H.W. Bush was the director of the CIA during those years, probably play a large role in why this international terrorist is not given the same treatment as other, mostly Muslim people who often have been detained on far less substantiated suspicions regarding terrorism then Mr Posadas, who has a long history of terrorist activities, especially on U.S. soil.

Double Standards anyone?

http://www.consortiumnews.com/2005/042405.html
http://www.tkb.org/Incident.jsp?incID=1860
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A57838-2004Sep2.html
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
 
Falcon84
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RE: Fifth Anniversary Of The Elian Gonzalez Fiasco

Tue Apr 26, 2005 9:50 pm

Today, is the fifth anniversary, of Elian Gonzalez being released from those here in the U.S., i.e., the Cuban community, and right wing nuts like Jcs and others, who used this boy as a political football.

Today, is the 5th anniversary that he was released from his near-hostage state by those who said they were promoting "freedom", by keeping the boy from his father, who wanted him back.

Today is the 5th anniversary of when Reno and Clinton, after weeks and weeks of being patient with his captors, did the right thing, and returned him to his father, the only relative that really cared about him beyond making him an anti-Castro puppet.

Today is the 5th anniversary of the GOP, the alleged party of "Family Values", getting what it deserved when it deliberately tried to keep a little boy from his biological father, all in the name of politics against a nation that isn't a threat to anyone anymore.

Today is the 5th anniversary that the American Cuban Community, who, by the way, has no intention of going back to Cuba after Fidel is gone, got their just reward for saying they're for "freedom", when, at the same time, conspiring to hold a little boy prisoner here in this nation, all to score political points in Washington.

Jcs, it's another reason why I hold you in such contempt, I must say.

Btw, it's not like he "barely knew his father". His father knew Elian quite well, thank you, and your wacked-out, right-wing horse crap doesn't change that fact. He is where he belongs-with his father, not with some creepy relatives who weren't concerned about him, but more concerned about making a name for himself.

I, for one, was glad of the outcome. The fact that Jcs, and others like him, still mourn the day a little boy was sent back to his rightful guardian, all because they don't like the politics of the nation his father is from, tells you the utter hypocrisy of people like them, who say they stand for "family values."

The fact you're in such mourning over this, Jcs, makes me jump for joy.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Fifth Anniversary Of The Elian Gonzalez Fiasco

Tue Apr 26, 2005 10:50 pm

The 'end result' - the boy being back with his Father where he legally and rightfuly belonged because there was no reason, no proof, no inkling that his Father had anything but love and best intentions for the boy - is good and decent.

The methodology of sending a S.W.A.T. unit into someone's home in the manner so executed and condoned by that Gorilla Janet Reno and her DoJ cronies to seize the boy was a deplorable act - likely traumatized the child more than any experience he'll have living with his Father in Cuba.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
mia
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RE: Fifth Anniversary Of The Elian Gonzalez Fiasco

Tue Apr 26, 2005 10:56 pm

The last time I was in Cuba I met the young man at mass. I have family that goes to the same church as they do in Cardenas. He is a normal young man and his father is a normal Cuban, nothing special. I am glad he is with his fathe instead of his 'family' from the United States.
"Like all great travelers, I have seen more than I remember, and remember more than I have seen."
 
CaptOveur
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RE: Fifth Anniversary Of The Elian Gonzalez Fiasco

Tue Apr 26, 2005 11:08 pm

Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 3):
In other news, international terrorist Luis Posada Carriles, who is still wanted in Venezuela for the bombing of a Cubana Airlines plane in 1976 that killed 73 people, has been able to enter the US without any anti-terrorism alarmbells going off. He currenlty lives in Florida as a free man. The facts that his anti-Castro terror activities were sponsored by the CIA back in the seventies plus the fact that George H.W. Bush was the director of the CIA during those years, probably play a large role in why this international terrorist is not given the same treatment as other, mostly Muslim people who often have been detained on far less substantiated suspicions regarding terrorism then Mr Posadas, who has a long history of terrorist activities, especially on U.S. soil.



get over it.
Things were better when it was two guys in a dorm room.
 
Falcon84
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RE: Fifth Anniversary Of The Elian Gonzalez Fiasco

Tue Apr 26, 2005 11:47 pm

The more I read what Jcs wrote, and the more I listen to some Republicans on this issue and the Schiavo issue, it's quite obvious of one thing: there are far too many Republicans who only believe in "family values" when it suits their purpose, and doesn't somehow get tangled up in issues they have trouble comprehending, like a 15-year comatose state, or when Cuba, and theire so-1960's aversion of the island is concerned.
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CaptOveur
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RE: Fifth Anniversary Of The Elian Gonzalez Fiasco

Wed Apr 27, 2005 12:03 am

I kind of agree with the Clinton move of sending the little bastard back to Cuba.

He had family there. In fact his dad was somewhat signifigant in the government. So the kid probably lives a pretty good life. I think the rights of an immediate parent are stronger than those of a cousin or a grandparent or whatever.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 8):
The more I read what Jcs wrote, and the more I listen to some Republicans on this issue and the Schiavo issue, it's quite obvious of one thing: there are far too many Republicans who only believe in "family values" when it suits their purpose

asbo-friggin-lutely. It is hard to take a group that flip flops on issues to suit their purpose seriously. In the Schiavo issue the law was pretty clear, when someone gets married their parents lose all control over them. Her husband was calling the shots for her at that point so it should have been a no brainer for the courts. Granted, if her parents hadn't made a stink you would have never heard a peep about this on the news. The same situation happens somewhere probably every day and it goes down without a hitch.

Same with the little Cuban. He had family that wanted him back in Cuba, immediate family, a father. A father that wants a kid has a stronger claim than a grandmother or an aunt, or uncle, or cousin who wants the kid, that isn't only the legal position, it is also the ethical position.

The situation would have been totally different if he was almost certainly going to be killed if he was sent back. That was not the situation so it is a good thing he went.
Things were better when it was two guys in a dorm room.
 
Superfly
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RE: Fifth Anniversary Of The Elian Gonzalez Fiasco

Wed Apr 27, 2005 12:10 am

Kudos to the Clinton administration for reuniting Elian with his father.
Those low-life Cuban Americans and there mafia in southern Florida tried to kidnap the poor kid.

Quoting JCS17 (Thread starter):
apartheid (yep...racism is alive and well in Cuba),

...and since when do you care about racism?
Interesting you see that considering you've never even been there. I've been to Cuba and I didn't experience the racism as I sometimes have to deal with here in my own country, United States.
Bring back the Concorde
 
Mir
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RE: Fifth Anniversary Of The Elian Gonzalez Fiasco

Wed Apr 27, 2005 12:12 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 5):
The methodology of sending a S.W.A.T. unit into someone's home in the manner so executed and condoned by that Gorilla Janet Reno and her DoJ cronies to seize the boy was a deplorable act - likely traumatized the child more than any experience he'll have living with his Father in Cuba.

Agreed, but if I remember correctly, it eventually came to the point where that was the only way they were going to get him out. When people resist the orders of the government, eventually the government is going to have to use force. His grandparents could have avoided that by giving up the kid when the government made the ruling.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
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yyz717
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RE: Fifth Anniversary Of The Elian Gonzalez Fiasco

Wed Apr 27, 2005 12:13 am

I vacationed in Cuba during the Elian-era, and his picture was plastered everywhere. Elian was far more of a pawn for Castro than for the US.

Cubans live poor 3rd world existances. The return of Elian to a father who was forced to demand his return by a totalitarian regime was sickening. He should have been allowed to stay in the US. Elian has been handed a life-time poverty sentence by his return to Cuba. No father would freely wish this for his own son.

Quoting JCS17 (Thread starter):
America should be ashamed of its actions five years ago today.

I agree completely. Cuba is nothing more than an armed camp. How dare the US return an innocent 6-yo boy to such an environment.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Schoenorama
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RE: Fifth Anniversary Of The Elian Gonzalez Fiasco

Wed Apr 27, 2005 12:15 am

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 7):
get over it.

Does this mean you support international terrorists that blow up airliners killing innocent civilians? Just wondering...

Oh, and please Captainvoyeur: can't you come op with something a bit more original than the Obsession-pic? How about putting your feelings in actual words? Afterall, this is a discussion-board, not an image-board.

Now I imagine I might be asking you a pretty difficult thing, given your track-record on this board, but at this stage I'd even prefer a "Go f@ck yourself, Schoenorama!" kind of answer, then having to look at that bleedin' Obsession pic in 9 out of 10 of your posts!
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aa61hvy
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RE: Fifth Anniversary Of The Elian Gonzalez Fiasco

Wed Apr 27, 2005 12:17 am



Yay for Elian
Go big or go home
 
Falcon84
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RE: Fifth Anniversary Of The Elian Gonzalez Fiasco

Wed Apr 27, 2005 12:21 am

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 12):
I vacationed in Cuba during the Elian-era, and his picture was plastered everywhere. Elian was far more of a pawn for Castro than for the US.

You don't think, Yyz, if a young American was being held against his father's will in another nation, that HIS picture wouldn't be plastered all over this nation? He IS a Cuban, and I'd have acted just like the Cuban people, if roles were reversed.

He belongs there, it's his home-despite Jcs's belittling of something he knows nothing about. His picture should have been plastered everywhere.

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 12):
Cubans live poor 3rd world existances. The return of Elian to a father who was forced to demand his return by a totalitarian regime was sickening.

So they're not as rich as Americans, Yyz. That's not a reason to keep a child from his father, is it, unless you're a "family values" hypocrite like Jcs.

And what proof do you have, beyond your own right-leaning bigotry to think his father was "forced" to do anything? Far as I can tell, he was doing exactly what I would have done in his place-fight to get my child back from people who had never met him, and did not know him.

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 12):
How dare the US return an innocent 6-yo boy to such an environment.

How dare people like you try to force "freedom" on anyone, especially a little 5 year old, who didn't have the first clue what was going on with him.

Maybe you'll understand that when you're a parent, Yyz717, like I am. What? I don't count, because I beat my kids? Oh, I forgot. My bad.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Fifth Anniversary Of The Elian Gonzalez Fiasco

Wed Apr 27, 2005 12:25 am

Quoting JCS17 (Thread starter):
do you really believe that the liberals would've been protesting so vehemently about Elian staying America if he was a black South African returning to an apartheid-era South Africa?

That's an irrelevant comparison - how many South Africans attempted to migrate to the US (or anywhere else) on an oil drum ? Even during the apartheid era, SA had a FAR greater influx of refugees from Zimbabwe, Zambia, Mozambique etc etc than ever actually left - those who left did so for political rather than economic reasons, in order to join the "armed struggle" in neighbouring states. I would estimate that probably as many young whites left SA for Europe, North America or Australia to avoid compulsory national service in the SADF, and they all left on legitimate visas or residence permits for their destination country.
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CaptOveur
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RE: Fifth Anniversary Of The Elian Gonzalez Fiasco

Wed Apr 27, 2005 12:28 am

Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 13):
can't you come op with something a bit more original than the Obsession-pic?

If the shoe fits. Wear it.

Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 13):
How about putting your feelings in actual words?

I did. That was the "get over it" part.

Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 13):
"Go f@ck yourself, Schoenorama!"

You said it, not me.

Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 13):
Does this mean you support international terrorists that blow up airliners killing innocent civilians?

No, it means I don't see the connection to a Cuban kid who needed to be sent home to guys flying planes into buildings. With the scarce resources our border patrol, INS, FBI and a few other important sounding agencies have they have to pick their battles. They actually KNEW where to look for Elian so they got him, and sent him back. As for the guy you claim is living in Florida. Maybe he made a deal that allowed our police to nab someone far more dangerous in exchange for his freedom. Maybe he is just not seen as a threat. Maybe there isn't enough evidence to build a case against him. Maybe he is being watched in the hopes he leads us to someone bigger. Honestly I don't have a clue what the deal is but if it was as easy and simplistic as you make it sound something would be done if the guy was a threat.
Things were better when it was two guys in a dorm room.
 
Superfly
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RE: Fifth Anniversary Of The Elian Gonzalez Fiasco

Wed Apr 27, 2005 12:29 am

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 12):
Cubans live poor 3rd world existances.

I guess you haven't seen the slums here in the Unites States either. You and I both have been to Cuba and it reminded me a lot of the slums of any major U.S. city minus the crime and street gangs. I saw the murals of Elian all over the place too.
I am glad that Elian was reunited with his father. Had this child came from Haiti or Black Cuban he would have been returned instantly without any media attention. Wish the Feds had threw those low-life scumbags in South Florida in the slammer!
Bring back the Concorde
 
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yyz717
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RE: Fifth Anniversary Of The Elian Gonzalez Fiasco

Wed Apr 27, 2005 12:50 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 18):
I guess you haven't seen the slums here in the Unites States either. You and I both have been to Cuba and it reminded me a lot of the slums of any major U.S. city

ALL Cubans live in slums. There is no way out. No prosperity, no freedom. Millions of wealthy Americans began life in US slums....and worked their way out.

Like I said, Elian was handed a life-time sentence by the child-less uncaring she-man Janet Reno and her blow-job-seeking boss Bill Clinton.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
ltbewr
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RE: Fifth Anniversary Of The Elian Gonzalez Fiasco

Wed Apr 27, 2005 12:52 am

One of the few times I was ever so angry at my USA government or it's leaders was when Elian was siezed by force by Federal Marshalls in Miami so to be able to be returned to his father in Cuba. As a picture posted above shows, those in the home where Elian was in could have had major weapons - but they didn't and if somebody was stupid, then Elian and a lot of his Miami extended family could have been killed or wounded.
Yes, one can argue that Clinton was a bit 'soft' as to Castro, and the Ex-Cuban community still has a death hate for Castro for good reason. I also don't like this double standard where we welcome Cubans illegally to our courntry while if a Hatian or from the Dominican Republic and 'black', you get sent back with no questions.
While I do agreee that Elian should have been returned to his father, it should have been done in a far less confrontational way. Unfortuntaly, the Cuban and anti-Castro community, including then Governor Jeb Bush were using Elian as a media tool, but to keep him here could have set up problems in other ways. What if an American citizen child in a custody dispute had been brought to Cuba and we didn't return Elian? Even though we would put up a huge stink to get that child back we would be in a bad position to negotiate. That is the terrible dillema of the Elian story.
 
Falcon84
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RE: Fifth Anniversary Of The Elian Gonzalez Fiasco

Wed Apr 27, 2005 12:53 am

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 19):
Like I said, Elian was handed a life-time sentence by the child-less uncaring she-man Janet Reno and her blow-job-seeking boss Bill Clinton.

You don't know crap about children, that is obvious, Yyz717. To Elian, Cuba is one thing-home. And if he had been forced to stay here, he would have been a trophy for right-wing wanna-be's like yourself, and other right-wing hanger's on, who's moral words about "family values" only go as far as 89 miles from the coast of the U.S.

Again, if ever you're lucky enough to have children, maybe you'll understand Elian's dad a little better. But I doubt it-you're so full of right-wing propoganda, that you'll never see straight anyway.
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Superfly
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RE: Fifth Anniversary Of The Elian Gonzalez Fiasco

Wed Apr 27, 2005 12:59 am

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 19):
Elian was handed a life-time sentence by the child-less uncaring she-man Janet Reno and her blow-job-seeking boss Bill Clinton.

You have just proven that you have zero credibility on this issue. Falcon84 summed it up pretty well.
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Falcon84
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RE: Fifth Anniversary Of The Elian Gonzalez Fiasco

Wed Apr 27, 2005 1:05 am

Yes, Superfly, Yyz pulls the same old chestnut out of the fire that a lot of the right wing nuts pull out when against a wall-bring up Clinton's blowjob. It's so much easier than discussing the issue, even if it has no relevance to his properly sending Elian back to his home.

Unfortunately, Jcs can't fathom that ANYONE would want to live-or SHOULD live anywhere else but the good old U S of A. It's beyond his limited world knowledge and comprehension that some people actually LIKE to live where they do, even if it is poor, and not the land of the free. It's truly mystifying to him, so he justifies holding a CHILD hostage, all in the name of a whacked-out political dogma, and the fact he doesn't know much beyond his own borders.

As for Yyz, I don't know what's up with him. I still think he's an American wanna-be or something.  Smile
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Superfly
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RE: Fifth Anniversary Of The Elian Gonzalez Fiasco

Wed Apr 27, 2005 1:18 am

LOL Falcon84!  Silly

I've heard Yyz717's rants on this issue before. I wonder why he visited Cuba since he thinks it's a hell hole he makes it out to be.
Castro certainly has his faults and all but Cuba is far from the wasteland that some like to make it out to be.
To me Cuba seemed like one big happy ghetto.
It's poor but the people are nice and like to have a good time. People are educated, in good health, really in to the arts (music, dance, poetry, paintings, acting) and live a very humble existence.
I don't know what Yyz717's experience was but I statyed away from the 'resorts' geared for tourist and no way did I waste my time in Veradero.
I hung out with the locals and got a taste of Cuba without taking 'guided tours' on air conditioned buses with other non-Cuban tourist.
I had a great time and I will go back. I just won't tell until I return. Big grin

By the way, I've been to Haiti they are MUCH worse off than Cuba.
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VSlover
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RE: Fifth Anniversary Of The Elian Gonzalez Fiasco

Wed Apr 27, 2005 2:01 am

thanks for reminding me why i supported his return to his father...he had a family, the us government has no place in deciding if it is a "good enough" family.


back then the government did the right thing, and didnt even bother distributing a memo stating how it might be advantageous a la schiavo.
 
Tom in NO
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RE: Fifth Anniversary Of The Elian Gonzalez Fiasco

Wed Apr 27, 2005 2:05 am

Count me as one registered Republican who had no problems with Elian being taken back to Cuba to be with his father; and as one who was most disappointed with the President and other Republicans with regards to the Terry Schiavo issue.

Tom at MSY
"The criminal ineptitude makes you furious"-Bruce Springsteen, after seeing firsthand the damage from Hurricane Katrina
 
dvk
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RE: Fifth Anniversary Of The Elian Gonzalez Fiasco

Wed Apr 27, 2005 2:10 am

While there were many complicating factors in this case, the trump card was that Elian's father wanted him, and there was no evidence that he was a neglectful or abusive father. With no civil reason for denying the father his child, Elian needed to be returned, political issues be damned.
I'm not dumb. I just have a command of thoroughly useless information.
 
787
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RE: Fifth Anniversary Of The Elian Gonzalez Fiasco

Wed Apr 27, 2005 2:28 am

The puppet master and the puppet.



The loser in all this is Gonzalez as he was used by Castro more than he would ever have been by the American Cuban community. To say otherwise is not knowing the old communist Castro.
787 Italia - Io, il comandante dell'aria
 
Superfly
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RE: Fifth Anniversary Of The Elian Gonzalez Fiasco

Wed Apr 27, 2005 2:45 am

787:
Oh give it a rest!
I am glad the kid is with his father. I am glad the U.S. didn't allow a state sanctioned kidnapping.
Bring back the Concorde
 
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yyz717
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RE: Fifth Anniversary Of The Elian Gonzalez Fiasco

Wed Apr 27, 2005 2:56 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 22):
You have just proven that you have zero credibility on this issue.

And you do? Do you think being an American tourist in Cuba with your pockets full of American cash really gives you an insight into how Cubans live? It doesn't. Not even close.

Cuba is an armed camp. Thousands of Cubans are in jail simply for opposing the regime. Millions more are impovished since private enterprise is not allowed. ALL Cubans lead fairly miserable lives (other than the ruling Communist elite).

There can be no excuse for returning Elian to such an environment. His father did not have the freedom to speak freely on his wishes for his son. Indeed, as in any Communist nation, the entire family was effectively under detention until Elian was returned.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
airlinelover
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RE: Fifth Anniversary Of The Elian Gonzalez Fiasco

Wed Apr 27, 2005 3:00 am

Superfly, if Elian had been able to stay (which he SHOULD have) it would not have been "State sanctioned". The fact that his mother died trying to bring him here is proof enough that she was trying to get him to a better place. Had she lived, he would not have gone back. That boy should be here, where he can't be used as a puppet by Castro.

Castro probably threatened to cut off Clinton's supply of special Cigars.

Chris
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Superfly
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RE: Fifth Anniversary Of The Elian Gonzalez Fiasco

Wed Apr 27, 2005 3:23 am

Yyz717:
Give it a rest.  Smile




Airlinelover:
Chris my friend, our immigration policy regarding Cubans is the main problem. The Cuban American mafia already has resources set up for those once they get here. The woman had a few screws loose to put herself and her son on that little raft in the first place. She knew that she would get TONS of sympathy from the scumbags in south Florida for her stupid actions.
She got the Darwin award and the son got returned to his father.
The scumbag Cuban America mafia made a complete ass out of themselves by trying to kidnap the poor little kid. The mother put him in harms way and then the scumbags in south Florida put him in harms way by defying the federal government.
Our govenment should have never let those $h!tbags in to the United States once Castro came to power. They should have faced the music in there own country.

Give the anti-Communist rhetoric a rest. By the time Elian is old enough to drive and bang chicks, Cuba will no longer be Communist anyway.
Bring back the Concorde
 
Schoenorama
Posts: 2305
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 5:15 am

RE: Fifth Anniversary Of The Elian Gonzalez Fiasco

Wed Apr 27, 2005 3:32 am

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 17):
No, it means I don't see the connection to a Cuban kid who needed to be sent home to guys flying planes into buildings

Who said anything about guys flying planes into buildings? Anyway, if you really meant to point out you didn't see a connection, then why didn't you simply state so? Why say "Get over it when you really meant to say they you didn't see the connection? I've got problems sometimes with using your language, but surely someone like you with your vast knowledge of the English vocabulary, knows the different between "where's the connection?" and "get over it"

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 17):
As for the guy you claim is living in Florida. Maybe he made a deal that allowed our police to nab someone far more dangerous in exchange for his freedom. Maybe he is just not seen as a threat. Maybe there isn't enough evidence to build a case against him. Maybe he is being watched in the hopes he leads us to someone bigger. Honestly I don't have a clue what the deal is but if it was as easy and simplistic as you make it sound something would be done if the guy was a threat.

The guy is certainly a threat. The whole issue is, to whom? He is held reponsable for the 1976 Cubana de Aviación bombing which cost the lifes of 73 people. That's an act of terrorism, in my book. Anti-Castro terrorism but terrorism nevertheless. The fact that this particular terrorist was CIA-trained (during times when Bush Sr. was director of the CIA) says enough to explain why this particular US Government is hesitant in recognizing Mr Posadas is a terrorist, let alone arrest him and turn him over to Venezuela to stand trial.

Now whether it is about ignoring U.S. Law when it comes to a Cuban kid of which that law states he must be re-united with his father, or about not recognizing nor prosecuting an internationally recognized anti-Castro terrorist held responsable for the death 73 people, it is astonishing how Republicans, over and over again, have their own interpretation of Law in everything regarding Cuba.

Quoting Airlinelover (Reply 33):
The fact that his mother died trying to bring him here is proof enough that she was trying to get him to a better place.

No it doesn't. It only proofs that the mother put the child at incredible risk.
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Fifth Anniversary Of The Elian Gonzalez Fiasco

Wed Apr 27, 2005 3:44 am

I assume that, if the kid would have been returned right away, as the international custody agreement (which the US signed) prescribe, without any ideological fuzz, Castro would have never had the opportunity to use the Elian Gonzalez case to show off. Only the actions of the family of Elians mother and the protests by the Miami exiles made it such a high profile case.
Also, Elian´s mother and his father were divorced. In many cases this also makes the two families to pick sides.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
jcs17
Posts: 7376
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RE: Fifth Anniversary Of The Elian Gonzalez Fiasco

Wed Apr 27, 2005 4:28 am

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 9):
The situation would have been totally different if he was almost certainly going to be killed if he was sent back.

Tell that to the Cubans who are caught by the Coast Guard just a few miles off the coast from Key West and are returned to Cuba. I'm pretty sure those Cubans aren't having a parade thrown for them when they are returned.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 10):
...and since when do you care about racism?
Interesting you see that considering you've never even been there. I've been to Cuba and I didn't experience the racism as I sometimes have to deal with here in my own country, United States.

Hey Superfly, just a question. When you were in Cuba how many Cubans of African descent did you see working at the hotel you were staying at? How many Cubans of African descent were in jobs that involved the tourism industry? The answer...very few. One thing that is overlooked so often about Cuba is that blacks are relegated to jobs where they will have no contact with tourists. The Cuban government only wants Hispanic Cubans working with in the tourism industry, while most blacks are relegated to farm labor.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 23):
Unfortunately, Jcs can't fathom that ANYONE would want to live-or SHOULD live anywhere else but the good old U S of A. It's beyond his limited world knowledge and comprehension that some people actually LIKE to live where they do, even if it is poor, and not the land of the free.

Are you really that braindead to think that most Cubans like where they are, like poverty, and like oppression? Last time I checked, there are still Cubans hopping in rafts made out of whatever they can find to come to a better life in the United States.
America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
 
Superfly
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RE: Fifth Anniversary Of The Elian Gonzalez Fiasco

Wed Apr 27, 2005 4:43 am

Quoting JCS17 (Reply 37):
Hey Superfly, just a question. When you were in Cuba how many Cubans of African descent did you see working at the hotel you were staying at? How many Cubans of African descent were in jobs that involved the tourism industry? The answer...very few. One thing that is overlooked so often about Cuba is that blacks are relegated to jobs where they will have no contact with tourists. The Cuban government only wants Hispanic Cubans working with in the tourism industry, while most blacks are relegated to farm labor.

Total B.S. Jcs17.
What ever right-wing anti-Castro source you get that from, just throw it away. The hotel I stayed at had many Afro-Cubans working there. The hotel manager was an Afro-Cuban too. The Cuban customs agent that looked at my passport once stepped off the Cubana IL-62 was also an Afro-Cuban.
Bring back the Concorde
 
sacflyer
Posts: 364
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RE: Fifth Anniversary Of The Elian Gonzalez Fiasco

Wed Apr 27, 2005 5:00 am

Hey 787,

Here is another politician taking advantage of a child who was kidnapped - and raped!

http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0%2C1249%2C485034061%2C00.html

The United States, Reno, and Clinton did the right thing to rescue Elian who was literally being held hostage in a foreign country and return him to his father. Remember, this happened before 9/11 and Castro was one of the first to speak out and condemn the terrorist attacks against the United States that day!
I'm just happy that RR ratings can't be in negative numbers!
 
jpetekyxmd80
Posts: 3972
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RE: Fifth Anniversary Of The Elian Gonzalez Fiasco

Wed Apr 27, 2005 5:07 am

Would like to see this situation today with a Saudi Arabian refugee. Would like to see Bush deal with a similar situation with a great 'ally' orf ours.

[Edited 2005-04-26 22:07:34]
The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
 
787
Posts: 270
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2000 11:57 pm

RE: Fifth Anniversary Of The Elian Gonzalez Fiasco

Wed Apr 27, 2005 5:24 am

And this just today in the news----Elian frequently appears in public alongside his father, today is the first time he has given an address at an event open to the international press. President Fidel Castro was among thousands in the audience to witness it and many of the boy's remarks were sure to please the communist leader.

Yes the puppet master still tugs the strings. Perhaps the day will come when the old Communist will light his last cigar and Elian will be serving cubra libres to fat tourists in the Sheraton Havana we will know the real story.




Continuaré tirando de sus secuencias Elian para el motivo de la gente Cubano!
787 Italia - Io, il comandante dell'aria
 
Schoenorama
Posts: 2305
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 5:15 am

RE: Fifth Anniversary Of The Elian Gonzalez Fiasco

Wed Apr 27, 2005 5:55 am

Quoting 787 (Reply 41):
Continuaré tirando de sus secuencias Elian para el motivo de la gente Cubano!

¡Qué emoción! Tears in my eyes, really! /sarcasm

Has it ever occurred to you that perhaps Elian doesn't want to be used 'for the Cuban cause', from either side?

If you want to speak out for the Cuban Cause, be my guest. But lets keep the kid out of this. Using a kid for one's own agenda, whether it's Fidel Castro or a user on an a.net discussion board, is utterly pathetic.
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
 
787
Posts: 270
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2000 11:57 pm

RE: Fifth Anniversary Of The Elian Gonzalez Fiasco

Wed Apr 27, 2005 6:12 am

Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 42):
Has it ever occurred to you that perhaps Elian doesn't want to be used 'for the Cuban cause', from either side?

It has.

Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 42):
If you want to speak out for the Cuban Cause

I do not. Never!

Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 42):
Using a kid for one's own agenda, whether it's Fidel Castro or a user on an a.net discussion board, is utterly pathetic.

Agreed. It's Castro I am critical of. Gonzalez is just a pawn and a puppet. What don't you understand about that?

Thank you very much!
787 Italia - Io, il comandante dell'aria
 
Superfly
Posts: 37735
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RE: Fifth Anniversary Of The Elian Gonzalez Fiasco

Wed Apr 27, 2005 6:54 am

787:

Quoting 787 (Reply 43):
Has it ever occurred to you that perhaps Elian doesn't want to be used 'for the Cuban cause', from either side?

It has.

Well who started it?
It wasn't Castro.
Fidel Castro will make a big deal out of every little victory he has over the US government and he has good reason to do so. He was even kind enough to send up observers to help us out in the Florida recount of 2000.  Wink  Smile
You can not fault Castro for have a close relationship with Elian and his father. Afterall, one of there citizens was kidnapped by mobsters here in our country.

Go ahead and post as many pictures you want with Elian and the President of his country, you aren't going to convince any of us here.

Also you should scroll up and read post #36 (MD11Engineer) which sums up this topic very well.
Bring back the Concorde
 
Schoenorama
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Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 5:15 am

RE: Fifth Anniversary Of The Elian Gonzalez Fiasco

Wed Apr 27, 2005 7:18 am

Quoting 787 (Reply 43):
Agreed. It's Castro I am critical of. Gonzalez is just a pawn and a puppet. What don't you understand about that?

Thank you very much!

I know Elian Gonzalez is just a pawn and a puppet. What worries me is people like you accusing Castro of using the kid while you do absolutely the same! You're even dedicating him a spanish phrase as if the kid knowningly and, most important of all, willingly has become the leading figure in the anti-Castro movement.
Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
 
Superfly
Posts: 37735
Joined: Thu May 11, 2000 8:01 am

RE: Fifth Anniversary Of The Elian Gonzalez Fiasco

Wed Apr 27, 2005 7:45 am

787:
I can link images too you know.
Here is a photo of him with his father, whare he belongs.






Had Elian stayed here in the United States:
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Bring back the Concorde
 
HOMER71
Posts: 2123
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2001 10:56 pm

RE: Fifth Anniversary Of The Elian Gonzalez Fiasco

Wed Apr 27, 2005 8:16 am

OMG, Superfly! I'm changing my stance, Clinton did the right thing! Big grin
"On spaceship earth there are no passengers...only crew."
 
Superfly
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RE: Fifth Anniversary Of The Elian Gonzalez Fiasco

Wed Apr 27, 2005 8:24 am

LOL! Homer71!  Silly  Smile
Bring back the Concorde
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: Fifth Anniversary Of The Elian Gonzalez Fiasco

Wed Apr 27, 2005 9:00 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 11):
Agreed, but if I remember correctly, it eventually came to the point where that was the only way they were going to get him out. When people resist the orders of the government, eventually the government is going to have to use force. His grandparents could have avoided that by giving up the kid when the government made the ruling.

I disagree, it would have taken longer but would have happened. Janet (The Gorilla) Reno made the judgement to send in the S.W.A.T. unit, and it was the wrong decision. The Grandparents would have eventually surrendered him - peacefully. Ridiculous situation, sending a heavily armed team after a kid.

I do not dispute that fact that the kid needed to be in Cuba with his Father - even though I have no particular affinity for Cuba or Castro - since there is no obvious danger to his life in Cuba. It's the methodology used to get him out of the house. Absurd.

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 12):
I vacationed in Cuba during the Elian-era, and his picture was plastered everywhere. Elian was far more of a pawn for Castro than for the US.

Don't doubt that a bit. No different if the situation were reversed and there was an American child in Cuba who's father wanted him back in, oh hell, lets say Topeka. However, I'm quite sure Castro would have promptly told the USA to go fuck itself. Likely the kid would still be there (unless Slick Willie sent in a team to get him) and the kids pictures would still be plastered all over Topeka. Oh, the kid would have been just as much a pawn in the states as Elian was in Cuba.

Superfly, Funny ass photos Dude.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
TedTAce
Posts: 9098
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RE: Fifth Anniversary Of The Elian Gonzalez Fiasco

Wed Apr 27, 2005 11:13 am

Sorry for the delay on jumpin in on this one, but as a South Florida resident and someone married to a Cuban at the time this nonsense was going on, I wanted to get this one 'right'.

Quoting JCS17 (Thread starter):

Can I have Agent provocateurs for $10,000,000 alex?
Your from the North, you probably have never been to Miami, and I'd be stunned if you PERSONALLY knew a Cuban.

Quoting JCS17 (Thread starter):
I'm not trying to play the race card here, but do really think that the Reverend Jesse Jackson would've been begging to send a black kid back to South Africa?

You are playing the race card, and playing it POORLY. Jesse Jackson is an adulterer, and a schill for Democrats, anyone who's gives this guy creedance is a MORON.

Quoting JCS17 (Thread starter):
would you rather go back to a father you barely even knew in a communist dictatorship or would you rather stay in a free America with your relatives.

I hate to break the news to you, but he knew his father very well until Marislaysias or whatever her name is started to molest him.

Quoting JCS17 (Thread starter):
America should be ashamed of its actions five years ago today

Humm, We return a child to his only living direct relative and this is a crime/something to be ashamed of??? umm

NO!!



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 2):
The ugly part of the whole affair was Cuban exiles and his mother's money-grubbing family holding this kid hostage so they could appear on Oprah, while depriving him of his only surviving parent. It was pretty sick.

It was DISGUSTING, Try living in Miami with all those polarized MORONS, and the Media making CaptOveur's obsession bottle look like a dime store sampler!!

Quoting Schoenorama (Reply 3):
Double Standards anyone?

For $1,000 Alex!!

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 4):
near-hostage

How Generous, last time I checked he WAS being held Hostage by his relatives

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 4):
a nation that isn't a threat to anyone anymore.

Besides the Russians having missles there was Cuba ever REALLY a threat of anything other then expelling 1,000's of it's inhabitants at a time into S. Florida??

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 5):
The methodology of sending a S.W.A.T. unit into someone's home in the manner so executed and condoned by that Gorilla Janet Reno and her DoJ cronies to seize the boy was a deplorable act - likely traumatized the child more than any experience he'll have living with his Father in Cuba.

And you would get past a minimum of 40 armed Cubans threatening violence with what?? a water gun?

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 7):
get over it.

You get over it...Over..

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 8):
there are far too many Republicans who only believe in "family values" when it suits their purpose, and doesn't somehow get tangled up in issues they have trouble comprehending

Democrats have selective memory too, but theRepublicans tend to be most abusive of pandering.

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 9):
little bastard

He was not a Bastard, his parents were married at the time they had him.

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 9):
somewhat signifigant in the government

He was a member of the communist party on the Island at the time, working as a International hotel bellboy. While this gave him legal access to American dollars and the 'better shops' in Cuba this by no means made him a power player... until of course he brought Elian home...

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 9):
Granted, if her parents hadn't made a stink you would have never heard a peep about this on the news.

ABSOLUTELY CORRECT SIR!!!



Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 12):
Elian was far more of a pawn for Castro than for the US.

Yeah, I remember Castro promising not to hold the boy up as a trophy, then proverbally beating him like a read headed step child to the international media 'look I have him DAMN IT!!' Castro, cockaroaches, and the energizer FU¢king rabbit!!!!

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 12):
The return of Elian to a father who was forced to demand his return by a totalitarian regime was sickening.

Because his father is as brainwashed about communisim as some republicans/Democrats are?

Quoting AA61Hvy (Reply 14):

Yay for Elian

Can I have STAGED Picture for $1,000 Alex?? This is another ULTRA LOW point for the American media.. a PHOTOGRAPHER wating in the house for the SWAT team to come, just to take this picture, If I was that agent, I would have shot him just for 'shooting' me..

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 17):
No, it means I don't see the connection to a Cuban kid who needed to be sent home to guys flying planes into buildings

I think the point was hypocracy...

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 17):
Maybe there isn't enough evidence to build a case against him.

That and 1 Million Cubans in south Florida holding Jeb's balls in a JAR.

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 20):
One of the few times I was ever so angry at my USA government or it's leaders was when Elian was siezed by force by Federal Marshalls in Miami so to be able to be returned to his father in Cuba



Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 20):
While I do agreee that Elian should have been returned to his father, it should have been done in a far less confrontational way

Which one is it?? did you want him to go home or not??

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 20):
What if an American citizen child in a custody dispute had been brought to Cuba and we didn't return Elian?

It would have been just as nasty, but the mirrors at Gtimo watching the buildup of American forces down there would have made a convincing case that we would/could have wiped Castro off the map if we had made a concerted effort. Unfortunately because of Mr. "We shouldn't have US troops involved in nation building" We are spread WAY to thin to put up such a fight now.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 21):
Again, if ever you're lucky enough to have children

Oh please let's hope not....

Quoting Superfly (Reply 26):
...or for the cheap hookers!

I wish this one wasn't true.

Quoting 787 (Reply 30):
more than he would ever have been by the American Cuban community.

ROFLMAO, you live no where near Miami do you?!?!?!?

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 32):
His father did not have the freedom to speak freely on his wishes for his son. Indeed, as in any Communist nation, the entire family was effectively under detention until Elian was returned.

Please put the crack pipe down now.. FACT: His father had Cuban escorts with him, but he was interviewed SEVERAL times without them present, and re-assured him that nothing bad would happen to him if he defected, and that he would be 'taken care of (the positive meaning, not sleeping with the fishes one)' if he did defect with the boy. He repeatedly declined.

Quoting 787 (Reply 41):
Perhaps the day will come when the old Communist will light his last cigar and Elian will be serving cubra libres to fat tourists in the Sheraton Havana we will know the real story.

Umm you don't get out much do you? The Old man has kicked the habbit and has limited smoking to few areas on the island (I think homes are excluded), but eseentially it's like California, no public areas etc. etc...

Quoting Superfly (Reply 46):
Had Elian stayed here in the United States:

Something else I wish wasn't true... LMAO!!!

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 49):
Grandparents would have eventually surrendered him - peacefully

Maybe his Grandparent's would, but the 1,000's of psycho Cubans surrounding him wouln't have.
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ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
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RE: Fifth Anniversary Of The Elian Gonzalez Fiasco

Wed Apr 27, 2005 11:24 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 50):
Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 5):
The methodology of sending a S.W.A.T. unit into someone's home in the manner so executed and condoned by that Gorilla Janet Reno and her DoJ cronies to seize the boy was a deplorable act - likely traumatized the child more than any experience he'll have living with his Father in Cuba.

And you would get past a minimum of 40 armed Cubans threatening violence with what?? a water gun?

You should probably read my post - again, slower this time perhaps. I condemn the method used, not support it. Read it again. I'm GLAD he's back with his Father, I'm not at all happy with how it was done. Try again Ted.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND

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